---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/29/12: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:05 AM - Re: Battery location (Nigel Graham) 2. 01:05 AM - Re: Battery location (Nigel Graham) 3. 02:56 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (David Joyce) 4. 03:10 AM - Re: Battery location (Alex Kaarsberg) 5. 03:15 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line (Duncan & Ami) 6. 04:17 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line (Remi Guerner) 7. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Return Line (Bud Yerly) 8. 08:46 AM - Re: starter battery - LiFePO4 (GRAHAM SINGLETON) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery location From: Nigel Graham Hi Bob, .... and what happens to your C of G as you burn off your 9 gallons of "ballast" in flight? Nigel ;-) ------------------------------------- On 29/04/2012 01:28, Bob Harrison wrote: Snip ........... If you need to adjust the C of G of your =9Cbird=9D then put a 9 gallon long range tank behind the seats.! Hope this comment suits you ? Best regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Kit 337 FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] ON BEHALF OF Alex Kaarsberg SENT: 28 April 2012 23:51 TO: europa-list@matronics.com SUBJECT: Europa-List: Battery location All, Not having had much opportunity to play with my building for too many years, I have for a long time played with the idea of having a battery installed in the tunnel (trigear of course) in some kind of movable fixture allowing to use it as a way of adjusting the CG. If not in flight, then at least on the ground. Any thought or comment would be most welcome... Alex, kit 529. Links: ------ [1] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/NAVIGATOR?EUROPA-LIS T [2] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://FORUMS.MATRONICS.COM/ [3] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/CONTRIBUTION ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery location From: Nigel Graham Hi Bob, .... and what happens to your C of G as you burn off your 9 gallons of "ballast" in flight? Nigel ;-) ------------------------------------- On 29/04/2012 01:28, Bob Harrison wrote: Snip ........... If you need to adjust the C of G of your =9Cbird=9D then put a 9 gallon long range tank behind the seats.! Hope this comment suits you ? Best regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Kit 337 FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] ON BEHALF OF Alex Kaarsberg SENT: 28 April 2012 23:51 TO: europa-list@matronics.com SUBJECT: Europa-List: Battery location All, Not having had much opportunity to play with my building for too many years, I have for a long time played with the idea of having a battery installed in the tunnel (trigear of course) in some kind of movable fixture allowing to use it as a way of adjusting the CG. If not in flight, then at least on the ground. Any thought or comment would be most welcome... Alex, kit 529. Links: ------ [1] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/NAVIGATOR?EUROPA-LIS T [2] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://FORUMS.MATRONICS.COM/ [3] http://webmail.m-tecque.co.uk/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/CONTRIBUTION ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:18 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFePO4 Graham, No I meant it as writ! The original well thought out design was conceived around a 912 and a simple prop as I understand it. The significant extra weight of a 914 and a wobbly prop hanging on the front might be expected to make it relatively nose heavy. Ten pounds extra on the p[rop probably just about accounts for my 3 lb of lead. Regards, David On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:08:31 +0100 (BST) GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > David, > I suspect you meant to say "unexpectedly nose heavy" ? > regards > Graham > > > ________________________________ > From: David Joyce > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, 28 April 2012, 12:49 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFePO4 > > > > > Craig & Graham, Right from the start I planned to have >my battery in the engine compartment, and it has worked >very well. It sits on top of the passenger footwell with >a one inch retaining wall around its bottom end and fixed >with a nylon strap from the firewall over the top and >down. that is a much simpler and lighter mounting than >any I have seen in the rear. I have an Oddyssey 17 amp hr >battery which has had more than enough welly to start the >engine instantly even after a 3/12 break in the winter. I >made no provision for cooling and it doesn't seem to have >noticed. > As to weight and balance I have a mono XS, >914 and a Woodcomp SR 3000 W wobbly prop and a very well >equipped panel (although much of this electronic rather >than steam age!), so my plane might be expected to be >nose heavy. I calculated what I thought was the optimum >position for the Ready for Service C of G as what would >allow any combination of pilot/s, fuel & luggage and came >up with the figure of 59 ins or thereabouts (but the >precise figure will depend on the base weight of the >plane but I guess the optimum will be very close to this) >To achieve that precise CoG position I found I needed a >small, 3 lb block of lead bolted to the front of the tail >bulkhead (accessed conveniently through the trim slots). >I suspect I had saved most or all of 3lbs in longer >cables and more elaborate mounting & fixing of a rear >battery. My advice would be to assume this is wha.t you >will do with the battery and only shift it to the much >more inconvenient > rear position if your plane turns out to be unexpectedly >tail heavy. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:28:37 +0100 (BST) > GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >> Craig, >> you're right. moving the battery forward would require >>roughly half it's weight in the tail to compensate. >> You save the weight of the cables too. You need to >>consider keeping the battery cool if it's in the engine >>bay though. >> Graham >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: craig >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 28 April >>2012, 0:04 >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFePO4 >> >> >> >> Philip >> >> You mentioned the issues of weight and balance, for not >>using >> the LiFePo battery, assuming you had the battery in the >>rear >> As per most builds, was the option of another half kilo >>of ballast >> near the tail considered, if so and you opted not to >>proceed >> Could you explain why. Given the weight saving would >>still be >> about 6kg, it would seem worthwhile to pursue >> >> Craig======================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:40 AM PST US From: "Alex Kaarsberg" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery location All, My intention is so far, to build light, to have as modern and lightweight panel as possible, to put a 912 in the front and then to have a basic setup which will allow me to have as much flexibility as I can. I want to do what I can not to need ANY ballast. Having seen so many posts talking of the pros and cons of fwd vs. aft battery location, I figured in the middle and adjustable might just give that flexibility in order to optimise speed and economy as well as providing room for as wide a range of applications as I can. I see no point in the argument that the cables are heavy, if the option then is to place it in the back! It is as in the rest of our lives, a challenge to be able to talk of problems in a way that can enrich ours and others=C2=B4 understanding and insight, ego and past decisions can quickly blur our otherwise crystal clear vision of things Best regards from sunny Moscow, Alex, kit 529. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:15:40 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Return Line The LAA was averse to the idea of discharging the fuel return to the bottom of the tank on the basis that, if fuel lines firewall-forward were ruptured in an accident or engine fire, then there would be the possibility of fuel siphoning from the tank via the fuel return line, This makes sense, although mitigation of that possibility could be to place the vent line restrictor behind the firewall. Or arrange for the addition of a non-return valve at the same location. Duncan McF. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 26 April 2012 19:11 Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Return Line All, We have a fuel selector valve in fuel line. We try to remember to close it before a possible emergency landing. Some pilots close it always when not flying and some people close it only during a long storage time. There is also a fuel return line. That is connected to the tank bottom (starboard side /reserve side) if built as per a BM (issue 6, page 6-3). I have two guestions: 1) would it be wise to have a 2nd fuel valve in a fuel return line also to get an ability to close it or one-way-valve in the case of emergency? 2) why this line is connected to the fuel outlet which locates in the bottom of the tank? Why not to the upper corner of the (reserve side) tank? BTW: During this winter I changed all the rubber parts under the cowling (oh boy there are really many of them!). I noticed the fuel restrictor (FS02) was totally blocked. It was quite hard to open it. I assume it has maybe been blocked since almost new because I had during those days (2007) an issue with a fuel contamination and suffered a scary engine stoppage because of a totally blocked filter during a flight # 7. It was good to have a 2nd filter and way to use it by selecting "RES". So, I have noticed no problems to use my engine with return line which is off-line. There are also many Rotax aplications with no plans for return lines in use. What is a main reason we should have a fuel return line? To get more fresh cool fuel or what? Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT Finland ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Return Line From: "Remi Guerner" It is always instructive to have look at what is done on type certificated aircraft. Attached pages from the Diampnd Katana show the aircraft fuel system. As you can see: the return line goes to the top of the fuel tank, which is located behind the seat, as in the Europa. There was a one way valve in the return line of the first 90 production aircraft. Then the one way valve was removed on subsequent production aircraft and a Service Bulletin was issued to allow the retrofit of this modification, probably for a good reason. Another thing is the diameter of the restrictor. The diameter of the restrictor supplied with the kit by Europa is .75 mm while ROTAX specifies .35 mm in their 912 series Installation Manual. I believe .35 is appropriate whenever the return line goes to the top of the tank and the bigger diameter is necessary in the Europa configuration due to somme back pressure caused by the line returning to the bottom of the tank. Remi Guerner F-PGKL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372058#372058 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/da20_a1_amm_rev11_p276277_184.pdf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:01 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Return Line Interesting discussion on fuel return and battery placement and to review long ago topics. The return line was plumbed to the bottom because it was easy and it works. All points are valid that have been made. 914 Engines require no orifice and must have little restriction or poor performance will result. 912/Jabiru normally aspirated engines so equipped with returns must use the recommended restrictor by that engine manufacturer and hose size. Return fuel back to the tank to the top requires more plumbing and is perfectly fine provided the fuel size and fitting size is maintained. Slightly more head pressure is required on the return but in my opinion is minor as the pressure would be similar when the tank is full and a normal return fitted. As a technique, plumb a 5/16 fitting into the cobra neck for the return or use the same fitting as on the long ranger tank for the return interface. Then buy a pump for your long ranger tank and figure out something else for its plumbing and the tank vent. Nothing comes easy on a modification. Battery location in the trigear with most configurations follows from my shops construction logs: 912 with fixed prop any panel put the battery on the passenger footwell. 912S same as above. 912S with Airmaster or equivalent prop, move the battery to the baggage floor behind the flap tube. 914 with Airmaster or equivalent prop, move the battery to the baggage floor behind the flap tube. Jabiru 3300 may be put on the footwell, or the baggage bay floor with fixed prop and VFR panel. Mono wheel configurations 912, 912S or Jabiru 3300 are same as above but the CG will tend to be about 1/2 to one inch forward of ideal of 60 inches empty. For the 914/Airmaster with IFR panel, and autopilot, the battery must be installed near the mass balance support bracket. If installed in the baggage bay normally a 5 pound weight attached to the tail spring bolt attach point or similar is going to be required. Otherwise mount the battery to the tail spring. We use the Odessy PC680 as our standard battery as it is reliable and reasonably light (15 pounds). We use the metal battery box supplied as an option. This is based on price, availability options such as the metal battery box premade, and US lack of restrictions. Attach to the fuselage floor using a wood or metal floor fitted to the inside the battery box and attach with AN #10 tapered screws of your choice to a floor mounting plate. The flange on the bottom of the battery box can be used to screw through but I find a 1/8 ply with glass faces as a floor to be more expedient. Battery hold downs are simple aluminum angles riveted to the box, then nut plates are installed for the battery hold down bolts. Secure a flat bar across the battery to the metal battery box angles with appropriate #10 hardware to suite. The mount to the floor is via a glassed (4 layers) in wood plate, flox and foam. Nut plates are installed beneath the wood so as to be aligned with the wood floor in the battery box. If there is a question of CG in the Mono, I make another mount near the mass balance guide post identical to the one in the baggage bay floor. Do the weight and balance, and if necessary move the battery if required the extra few feet. I use #4 cable and attach studs to the vertical ply mount for the positive and negative terminals. This makes battery attachment a single cable affair instead of a mass of junkie wires all attached to the battery for whatever you forgot, external electrical plugs, charging jacks, or future electrical upgrades requiring direct battery access. To move the battery, just make a new pair of wire attach cables to suit the new battery location. Affix the cables securely to the floor. Great advice from you all. Regards, Bud Yerly Tech Support ----- Original Message ----- From: Remi Guerner To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 7:16 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Return Line > It is always instructive to have look at what is done on type certificated aircraft. Attached pages from the Diampnd Katana show the aircraft fuel system. As you can see: the return line goes to the top of the fuel tank, which is located behind the seat, as in the Europa. There was a one way valve in the return line of the first 90 production aircraft. Then the one way valve was removed on subsequent production aircraft and a Service Bulletin was issued to allow the retrofit of this modification, probably for a good reason. Another thing is the diameter of the restrictor. The diameter of the restrictor supplied with the kit by Europa is .75 mm while ROTAX specifies .35 mm in their 912 series Installation Manual. I believe .35 is appropriate whenever the return line goes to the top of the tank and the bigger diameter is necessary in the Europa configuration due to somme back pressure caused by the line returning to the bottom of the tank. Remi Guerner F-PGKL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372058#372058 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/da20_a1_amm_rev11_p276277_184.pdf http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:52 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: starter battery - LiFePO4 Now I'm confused! (again)=0AI was referring to your last sentence,=0AIf the plane is tail heavy the battery needs to be at the front, yes?=0AGraham=0A =0A-"My advice would be to assume this- is what you will do with the ba ttery and only shift it to the much more inconvenient> rear position if you r plane turns out to be unexpectedly tail heavy.=0A> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: David Joy ce =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sun day, 29 April 2012, 10:52=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: starter battery - LiF tors.org.uk>=0A=0AGraham, No I meant it as writ! The original well thought out design was conceived around a 912 and a simple prop as I understand it. The significant extra weight of a 914 and a wobbly prop hanging on the fro nt might be expected to make it relatively nose heavy. Ten pounds extra on the p[rop probably just about accounts for my 3 lb of lead. Regards, David ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.