---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/16/12: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:05 PM - Europa / Google Hangout? (Fred Klein) 2. 02:47 PM - Avoiding ground loops (David Joyce) 3. 02:54 PM - Europa / Google Hangout? (Fred Klein) 4. 03:57 PM - Re: Avoiding ground loops (Karl Heindl) 5. 04:07 PM - Re: Avoiding ground loops (klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com) 6. 04:11 PM - Europa / Google Hangout? (Fred Klein) 7. 04:50 PM - Re: Avoiding ground loops (rparigoris) 8. 10:48 PM - Re: Mono-brake line routing (Keith Hickling) 9. 11:07 PM - Re: Mono-brake line routing (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:33 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Europa / Google Hangout? I've been cautiously exploring aroung the edges of this new online phenom known as Google + Hangout...here's an article describing it...might there be some interest and value for creating a "Europa Hangout"? What say all you techies? Fred ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:10 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Avoiding ground loops Have been doing a bit of thinking about how I could possibly have done a ground loop at my advanced age, and having inadvertently shared my loop with you while sleepily assuming I was replying to Tim personally, I thought I might share my conclusions with you. It seems to me that like meeting a large bird nose/beak on or ditching, ground looping is something you don't get taught, but something where a bit of prior nought would definitely be an asset! So here's my thoughts: Having turned 90 degrees left off the 09 runway, I was taxying at a brisk pace up the 36 runway with a brisk (said on landing to be 10kts, but on measuring immediately after the loop 10, gusting 18kts) coming from R rear quarter. After a momentary look at an instrument, I found myself swinging right. Full left rudder didn't stop the swing, and my reflex was to brake, as this generally of course helps turning manoeuvres in a mono. The turn continued and the plane went gently forwards and left with the ground touching the left wingtip and the prop. The stick was hard back all the time, because this is also ingrained in mono pilots to increase the authority of the tail wheel. With the amazing wisdom of hindsight, I strongly suspect that had I not braked the plane would not have gone A over T onto its prop, although it might have still touched the left wingtip. Slowing down and cutting the throttle also of course reduced airflow over the tail plane reducing the tail down forces, and removed the left turning effect of prop wash acting on the port side of the fin. So if I ever find myself threatened with a difficult to control tendency to turn sharply into wind, I hope I shall remember to accelerate rather than brake. An excursion on to the grass would have been a minor matter compared with a set of new blades + engine check. Glad to hear anyone else's experience or thoughts. Regards, David Joyce! G-XSDJ PS Now when confronted with a large bird looking as though it is coming through the screen I reckon the smart move is to pull up, as birds are likely to dive in a panic situation as their only means of rapidly gaining speed to avoid a threat, but when it first happened I hesitated a bit before turning right, wondering whether the bird knew the rules of the air! Ditching thoughts in due course. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:52 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Europa / Google Hangout? ...oops...I forgot to include this link to an article describing "Hangouts": http://www.inc.com/christina-desmarais/google-plus-why-better-for-business.html > I've been cautiously exploring aroung the edges of this new online > phenom known as Google + Hangout...here's an article describing > it...might there be some interest and value for creating a "Europa > Hangout"? > > What say all you techies? > > Fred ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:52 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Avoiding ground loops Hi David=2C >From what you are saying=2C you had the stick at full aft? With a tailwind this would have lifted your tail. Had you pushed the stick full forward yo u might have prevented the mishap. Karl > From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > Subject: Europa-List: Avoiding ground loops > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Date: Sat=2C 16 Jun 2012 22:46:03 +0100 > uk> > > Have been doing a bit of thinking about how I could > possibly have done a ground loop at my advanced age=2C and > having inadvertently shared my loop with you while > sleepily assuming I was replying to Tim personally=2C I > thought I might share my conclusions with you. It seems to > me that like meeting a large bird nose/beak on or > ditching=2C ground looping is something you don't get > taught=2C but something where a bit of prior nought would > definitely be an asset! So here's my thoughts: > Having turned 90 degrees left off the 09 runway=2C > I was taxying at a brisk pace up the 36 runway with a > brisk (said on landing to be 10kts=2C but on measuring > immediately after the loop 10=2C gusting 18kts) coming from > R rear quarter. After a momentary look at an instrument=2C I > found myself swinging right. Full left rudder didn't stop > the swing=2C and my reflex was to brake=2C as this generally > of course helps turning manoeuvres in a mono. The turn > continued and the plane went gently forwards and left with > the ground touching the left wingtip and the prop. The > stick was hard back all the time=2C because this is also > ingrained in mono pilots to increase the authority of the > tail wheel. > With the amazing wisdom of hindsight=2C I > strongly suspect that had I not braked the plane would not > have gone A over T onto its prop=2C although it might have > still touched the left wingtip. Slowing down and cutting > the throttle also of course reduced airflow over the tail > plane reducing the tail down forces=2C and removed the left > turning effect of prop wash acting on the port side of the > fin. So if I ever find myself threatened with a difficult > to control tendency to turn sharply into wind=2C I hope I > shall remember to accelerate rather than brake. An > excursion on to the grass would have been a minor matter > compared with a set of new blades + engine check. Glad to > hear anyone else's experience or thoughts. Regards=2C David > Joyce! G-XSDJ > > PS Now when confronted with a large bird looking as though > it is coming through the screen I reckon the smart move is > to pull up=2C as birds are likely to dive in a panic > situation as their only means of rapidly gaining speed to > avoid a threat=2C but when it first happened I hesitated a > bit before turning right=2C wondering whether the bird knew > the rules of the air! Ditching thoughts in due course. > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:04 PM PST US From: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Avoiding ground loops David, I too have had a similar excursion and done what you did with much the same pain in the wallet. I believe you are correct in the hindsight that thou shalt not touch thy brake, which is I believe incredibly difficult to do once your outrigger fails and the noise of the wingtip grinding off on the pavement fills your ears. My incident occurred following a pretty benign skip/bounce. I had been flying for quite some time without replacing the roll pin that prevents the tail wheel from turning round backwards. On the bounce, the tail wheel did the seemingly impossible by turning completely backwards, which locks due to the springs in an over center configuration, resulting in a loss of directional control.I know it was in that configuration as I touched down after the bounce because the left rudder pedal went to the floor with no resistance as the nose swung right. I had thought the little roll pin unimportant. The cracks in the pavement probably contributed to the tail wheel castering round on touchdown. Don't fly without the stupid roll pin and and don't touch the brake. I'm not sure I can keep my hand off the brake let alone move it to the throttle! Kevin On Jun 16, 2012, at 2:46 PM, "David Joyce" wrote: > > Have been doing a bit of thinking about how I could possibly have done a ground loop at my advanced age, and having inadvertently shared my loop with you while sleepily assuming I was replying to Tim personally, I thought I might share my conclusions with you. It seems to me that like meeting a large bird nose/beak on or ditching, ground looping is something you don't get taught, but something where a bit of prior nought would definitely be an asset! So here's my thoughts: > Having turned 90 degrees left off the 09 runway, I was taxying at a brisk pace up the 36 runway with a brisk (said on landing to be 10kts, but on measuring immediately after the loop 10, gusting 18kts) coming from R rear quarter. After a momentary look at an instrument, I found myself swinging right. Full left rudder didn't stop the swing, and my reflex was to brake, as this generally of course helps turning manoeuvres in a mono. The turn continued and the plane went gently forwards and left with the ground touching the left wingtip and the prop. The stick was hard back all the time, because this is also ingrained in mono pilots to increase the authority of the tail wheel. > With the amazing wisdom of hindsight, I strongly suspect that had I not braked the plane would not have gone A over T onto its prop, although it might have still touched the left wingtip. Slowing down and cutting the throttle also of course reduced airflow over the tail plane reducing the tail down forces, and removed the left turning effect of prop wash acting on the port side of the fin. So if I ever find myself threatened with a difficult to control tendency to turn sharply into wind, I hope I shall remember to accelerate rather than brake. An excursion on to the grass would have been a minor matter compared with a set of new blades + engine check. Glad to hear anyone else's experience or thoughts. Regards, David Joyce! G-XSDJ > > PS Now when confronted with a large bird looking as though it is coming through the screen I reckon the smart move is to pull up, as birds are likely to dive in a panic situation as their only means of rapidly gaining speed to avoid a threat, but when it first happened I hesitated a bit before turning right, wondering whether the bird knew the rules of the air! Ditching thoughts in due course. > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:01 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: Europa / Google Hangout? ...oops...I forgot to include this link to an article describing "Hangouts": http://www.inc.com/christina-desmarais/google-plus-why-better-for-business.html > I've been cautiously exploring aroung the edges of this new online > phenom known as Google + Hangout...here's an article describing > it...might there be some interest and value for creating a "Europa > Hangout"? > > What say all you techies? > > Fred ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:34 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Avoiding ground loops From: "rparigoris" Hi David Thanks for sharing your experience. I am close to a zero time Mono pilot (perhaps 5 minutes of taxi time on a demo) so I am far from one with first hand experience. , but did own a Cessna 170 taildragger for 19 years and have flown various taildraggers along the way. My perception of the Europa was that it has an extremely powerful tailwheel steering, just need to make sure you keep pressure on the tailwheel and "KEEP IT STRAIGHT" because it does not have differential braking to save you if you let things get out of shape (pointer target on windscreen not only helps learn how to keep it straight, but can aid in landing additude). Whenever I fly a unconventional aeroplane (nosedragger), I always get strange looks and am questioned why am I working so hard to taxi a fool aeroplane on the ground. When and if the skygods decide to deal me conditions I would rather not be out in, this technique can pay a handsome reward even in an unconventional aeroplane. Other than that the only negative I had about ground handling of the XS mono is the poor turning radius (XS stock bell-crank), but that is only a minor inconvenience that I have no problem dealing with. Reading with great interest about your entry into the club of (those who have), if you don't mind I would like to do a little armchair flying about 5 concepts I have about ground handling of the mono. Please comment (comments from and put me in my place if I am off base and set me straight. 1) Prior to purchasing my XS Monowheel, I read and spoke with folks about nosing over on a mono and touching a wingtip and hurting the prop when you attempt to use the brake if you are in any sort of turn at all (including losing an outrigger). I made a representative model with scale placement of the main wheel, tailwheel and outriggers. It is quite obvious that if you are going other than straight, any turning force moves the canter of gravity balance on the ground to a more nose heavy configuration, the reason being is the outriggers are aft of the main wheel and when side loads begin to load an outrigger, the net result is moving your pivot point back. Being a long time mono pilot, this should be second nature to know not to hit the brake if in a turn? If you enter a serious swerve, opposite rudder, kill power if you have mindset and take the consequences without hitting the brake, unless you manage to get it going straight. This would be my plan, and I would practice in my mind that if I lost control, this is what I would do. In other words practice making my reflex to not hit the brake in the event of a swerve because of the well known consequences. Is this the wrong thing to practice? 2) I think everyone is in agreement that you want to keep weight on the tailwheel so you have effective steering. When you taxi downwind, you don't need very much power. When you taxi downwind the airflow will be going over the stabilator in the reverse direction to normal flight if your taxi speed is less than the wind speed. If that is the case then you do not want your stabilator full aft because that reverse airflow will in fact reduce the pressure on the tailwheel. On many tailwheel aeroplanes you would want full forward stick to get maximum downpressure on the tailwheel with reverse airflow over the stabilator. Several high time mono pilots say although this is true, if you add significant power you could reverse the flow, so they settle for perhaps neutral stabilator just in case you add a lot of power and forget to pull stick full aft. What's your thoughts on this practice? 3) I was planning on putting my bird in various amounts of wind with a direct tailwind and also a quartering tailwind and measure tailwheel force with no power, taxi power, and a larger amount of power to try and figure out optimal technique of keeping the tailwheel planted. Did you, or anyone test this? What were findings? I was going to do the same test with a quartering wind and measure the effect of full into the wind and full downwind ailerons. Motor off, stiff quartering tailwind, main on a greaseplate and tailwheel on a skateboard to allow EZ weathervaning. 4) Again we all know we are at a disadvantage with a mono because we don't have differential braking. When getting nailed with a right quartering tailwind, the nose will want to swing right. Adding a little left brake is a desirable thing. Thus keep the stick full left aileron so reverse air will push the right wing harder downwind than the left wing which should be the equivalent to a token amount of left brake. This is standard for many taildraggers. Is there a reason it should not be standard practice on a mono? It also puts a token amount of downforce on the upwind wing. 5) I am at a loss when I look at the cable tension for monowheel steering. I may be missing something, but with the standard XS set up, why would anyone ever consider having anything else than precompressed springs that should allow for the most precise control? It seems anything other than precompressed springs would be like driving a car with a worn rack and pinon steering mechanism with a lot of slop between engagement of left and right movement of wheels. Is there something I am missing? Again I have no practical experience and wish to learn from others on best practices and techniques. Sincerely Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375842#375842 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:48:11 PM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono-brake line routing Fred, Yes, I had exactly the same issue. Europa said they would send me a longer brake line, but a couple of people told me that they had routed it tight on the side of the CM as you suggest, and that is what I did. That routing seemed better to me anyway. It just needs a gentle curve at the front. As far as I can remember it pushes forward a bit at the front during retraction, so placement of the retaining clips has to allow for that - no clip right at the front of the curve. Regards, Keith. From: Fred Klein Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:57 PM Subject: Europa-List: Mono-brake line routing Chapter 29M - Monowheel Landing Gear Brake hose routing Connect the brake hose to the elbow fitting in the rear of the slave cylinder. Clip the pipe along the top of the swinging arm as far as the LG04 pin. Inexpensive plastic p-clips P408-008 secured with small self-tapping screws should be adequate. Stay on the outside and pass the pipe forward of LG08 and then route it back over the top of the large tube inside the diagonals, and up to the top of the cockpit module. Keep it near the centre to avoid the flap push-rod (this will take it very close to the throttle cables which will be fitted later). Fellow mono-builders, Though my brake master cylinder is positioned exactly according to the manual, I'm finding my brake line to be about 2" short if I follow the manual and " route it back over the top of the large tube inside the diagonals". Have others experienced this condition of a too short brake line? Is there a recognised alternative routing to what the manual calls for? It appears to me that the brake line could be held tight against the side of the CM w/ a couple more of those little plastic P-clips and be clear of the flap drive mechanism... ...advice and experience gratefully accepted, Fred ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:13 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono-brake line routing On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Keith Hickling wrote: > Yes, I had exactly the same issue. Europa said they would send me a > longer brake line, but a couple of people told me that they had > routed it tight on the side of the CM as you suggest, and that is > what I did. Keith, Thank you much for the confirmation...I've resolved to do just that, and just this afternoon, I bought a box of nylon "P" clips to supplement the 3 supplied. I encased my rudder cables inside teflon sleeves so I have no fear of wear issues w/ the brake line. onward...not yet upward, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.