---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/23/12: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:31 AM - Aluminium Fuel Elbow (Kingsley Hurst) 2. 03:44 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (Paul McAllister) 4. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 11:40 AM - Re: Aluminium Fuel Elbow (ploucandco) 6. 02:36 PM - Europa AGM (Steven Pitt) 7. 03:18 PM - Re: Europa AGM (David Joyce) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:24 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Aluminium Fuel Elbow From: Kingsley Hurst If anybody is interested in procuring an XS fuel filler elbow/s as supplied by Tim Ward in NZ could you please let me know. I for one am a starter but we need several to constitute a batch. Regards Kingsley ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:50 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Paul=0Ayou know I can't resist temptation! I suspect that a bit of work re exdhaust extraction might=0Abe profitable, it seems to work well on Long EZ s, hoping to verify with flight testing in the next month.=0AGraham=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Paul McAllister =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 20 Ju ne 2012, 17:32=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help=0A =0A =0AHa ha.... I wondered who was going to be first out of the=0Acloset, me o r Fran=99s. =C2-Fran=99s and I have=0Abeen collaborating on a journey of discovery for the last couple of years.=C2- =0AI have been re luctant to share what I have been doing,=0Amostly because up until now I ha ve only been able to tell everyone what doesn't=0Awork! Both Fran's and I c an share funny stories of tuft test showing air flow=0Aout where it should be flowing in, some take offs where we couldn't get back on=0Athe ground qu ick enough due overheating and lots of work and re work.=0AFor me, I am sti ll works in progress, but over the next=0Awinter I plan on a fourth iterati on over next winter which will be a similar=0Adesign to Fran=99s. If I can persuade my friend Graham Singleton to come and=0Avisit, it might eve n a new carbon fiber cowling :)=0A=0A=C2-=0AAt a high level the sources o f design material we used were:=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Kays & Lo ndon wedge diffuser=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Kuchemann & Web er trumpet diffuser=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Cooling design notes from the Central States=0ACanard Group=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Taper diffuser design from the Canard group=0A* =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2-=C2-Oil Streaking presentations from the Central=0AState s Canard Group=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Think Vs. think radi ator notes from Rotary=0AEngine forums.=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Cooling Vs flow data from Rotax and Laminova=0A=C2-=0AOur design cr iteria was:=0ACooling that works in all phases of operation:=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Ground=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Climb=0A* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Cruise=0AOperates over a range of -5c to 40c=0AO ffers the lowest drag possible=0A=C2-=0AThis ultimately dictated a few de sign solutions:=0A=0ACowl Flap. =0AThis is the only way we could get coolin g over a large speed=0Arange and ambient temperature.=0A=C2-=0ALaminova l iquid oil=0Aheat exchanger.=0AIn one of the design iterations that Fran's h ad created he=0Ahad the oil and water radiators separated. Although this pr ovided plenty of oil=0Aand liquid cooling it caused a long cycle time to br ing the oil temperature up=0Ato operating temperature. The Laminova solves this problem.=C2- One problem that Fran's and I have not been=0Aable to s olve is the need for a small axillary oil radiator.=0A=C2-=0AThick Vs. Th in=0ARadiators.=0AI was ultimately able to make the thick radiator work wit h a=0AKuchemann & Weber trumpet diffuser, but I intend to abandon this. Fro m our=0Aresearch we have discovered that 70 to 80% of the heat exchange occ urs in the=0Afirst 20mm of the radiator.=0A=C2-=0ADiffused Inlets.=0AAt f irst glance Fran's cowl appears to have no diffuser on=0Athe inlet side of the radiator, however it works very well.=C2- After reading the design no tes for the Kays=0A& London wedge diffuser our hypothesis is that because t he coolant radiator=0Ais at an angle to the relative wind it behaves like a wedge diffusers.=0A=C2-=0AOther thoughts &=0Aobservations.=0AFran =99s has been flying a working solution for nearly a year=0Aand his design can be used as is.=C2- I am=0Adoing some experimentation with a single di ffused inlet that provides the=0Aengine combustion air, inter cooler and th e engine shroud. =C2-Given the level of effort this has proved to=0Abe I wouldn=99t recommend anyone copying what I have done, and it remains to be=0Aseen if it even works.=0AOver next winter I plan on removing the th ick radiator and I=0Aexpect that this will be a lower drag configuration ov er what I have.=0APointing the exhaust back is offers a lot of drag reducti on.=0AI have some photographs that show the exhaust plume on the old style exhaust=0Ashooting out nearly 2 meters.=C2- For=0Amonowheel the exhaust n eeds to be much longer so that carbon monoxide does not=0Afind its way into cabin via the tunnel. Unfortunately this was complex bit of=0Astainless st eel to fabricate.=0AWhen my cowling is fully open it is the same angle as t he=0Astandard cowling.=C2- I see 8 knots=0Adifference between fully open and fully closed.=C2-=0AThis isn't an exact comparison because when my co wl flap is open air=0Awill spill around the side and I expect this would be higher drag than the original=0Acowl.=C2- I have done a number of long c ross=0Acountry trips and for the same manifold pressure settings I am seein g about 5=0Aknots increase in my cruise.=C2- I have Warp=0Adrive blades a nd I do not wing root fairings so my set up is not as efficient=0Aas Fran =========================0A ======================= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help From: Paul McAllister Hello Graham, Frans has attempted this with his design, but for a mono wheel there is a very real chance of CO entering the airplane through the tunnel. Exhaust augmentation / extraction makes a whole range of issues go away. Ground cooling gets better the faster the engine runs, and as I understand it from the Long EZ guys, you no longer need to diffuse the inlet airstream .. Alas, I am with Bud on this.... time for tinkering is long over. I would guess with research and building that Frans and I have spent many hundreds of hours and its time to go flying :) Cheers, Paul On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 5:44 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON < grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Paul > you know I can't resist temptation! I suspect that a bit of work re > exdhaust extraction might > be profitable, it seems to work well on Long EZs, hoping to verify with > flight testing in the next month. > Graham > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Paul McAllister > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, 20 June 2012, 17:32 > > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help > > Ha ha.... I wondered who was going to be first out of the closet, me or > Fran=92s. Fran=92s and I have been collaborating on a journey of discove ry for > the last couple of years. > I have been reluctant to share what I have been doing, mostly because up > until now I have only been able to tell everyone what doesn't work! Both > Fran's and I can share funny stories of tuft test showing air flow out > where it should be flowing in, some take offs where we couldn't get back on > the ground quick enough due overheating and lots of work and re work. > For me, I am still works in progress, but over the next winter I plan on a > fourth iteration over next winter which will be a similar design to Fran =92s. > If I can persuade my friend Graham Singleton to come and visit, it might > even a new carbon fiber cowling :) > > > At a high level the sources of design material we used were: > > - Kays & London wedge diffuser > - Kuchemann & Weber trumpet diffuser > - Cooling design notes from the Central States Canard Group > - Taper diffuser design from the Canard group > - Oil Streaking presentations from the Central States Canard > Group > - Think Vs. think radiator notes from Rotary Engine forums. > - Cooling Vs flow data from Rotax and Laminova > > > Our design criteria was: > Cooling that works in all phases of operation: > > - Ground > - Climb > - Cruise > > Operates over a range of -5c to 40c > Offers the lowest drag possible > > This ultimately dictated a few design solutions: > * > * > *Cowl Flap. * > This is the only way we could get cooling over a large speed range and > ambient temperature. > > *Laminova liquid oil heat exchanger.* > In one of the design iterations that Fran's had created he had the oil an d > water radiators separated. Although this provided plenty of oil and liqui d > cooling it caused a long cycle time to bring the oil temperature up to > operating temperature. The Laminova solves this problem. One problem tha t > Fran's and I have not been able to solve is the need for a small axillary > oil radiator. > > *Thick Vs. Thin Radiators.* > I was ultimately able to make the thick radiator work with a Kuchemann & > Weber trumpet diffuser, but I intend to abandon this. From our research w e > have discovered that 70 to 80% of the heat exchange occurs in the first > 20mm of the radiator. > > *Diffused Inlets.* > At first glance Fran's cowl appears to have no diffuser on the inlet side > of the radiator, however it works very well. After reading the design > notes for the Kays & London wedge diffuser our hypothesis is that because > the coolant radiator is at an angle to the relative wind it behaves like a > wedge diffusers. > > *Other thoughts & observations.* > Fran=92s has been flying a working solution for nearly a year and his des ign > can be used as is. I am doing some experimentation with a single diffuse d > inlet that provides the engine combustion air, inter cooler and the engin e > shroud. Given the level of effort this has proved to be I wouldn=92t > recommend anyone copying what I have done, and it remains to be seen if i t > even works. > Over next winter I plan on removing the thick radiator and I expect that > this will be a lower drag configuration over what I have. > Pointing the exhaust back is offers a lot of drag reduction. I have some > photographs that show the exhaust plume on the old style exhaust shooting > out nearly 2 meters. For monowheel the exhaust needs to be much longer s o > that carbon monoxide does not find its way into cabin via the tunnel. > Unfortunately this was complex bit of stainless steel to fabricate. > When my cowling is fully open it is the same angle as the standard > cowling. I see 8 knots difference between fully open and fully closed. > This isn't an exact comparison because when my cowl flap is open air will > spill around the side and I expect this would be higher drag than the > original cowl. I have done a number of long cross country trips and for > the same manifold pressure settings I am seeing about 5 knots increase in > my cruise. I have Warp drive blades and I do not wing root fairings so m y > set up is not as efficient as Fran=92s. > > Regards, Paul > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?_blank" href="http://forums.matroni cs.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:21 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help agree with all you=C2- say, however: I used to get exhaust gas in cabin w ithout it, it probably got in via the flap slots. There must be a significa nt drag penalty from the exhaust plume squirting out vertical to the airflo w.=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Paul Mc Allister =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASe nt: Saturday, 23 June 2012, 14:44=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact d etail & Help=0A =0A=0AHello Graham,=0A=0AFrans has attempted this with his design, but for a mono wheel there is a very real chance of CO entering the airplane through the tunnel.=0A=0AExhaust augmentation / extraction makes a whole range of issues go away.=C2- Ground cooling gets better the faste r the engine runs, and as I understand it from the Long EZ guys, you no lon ger need to diffuse the inlet airstream.=0A=0AAlas, I am with Bud on this.. .. time for tinkering is long over.=C2- I would guess with research and b uilding that Frans and I have spent many hundreds of hours and its time to go flying :)=0A=0ACheers, Paul=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 5:44 AM, GRA HAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A=0APaul=0A>you know I can't resist temptation! I suspect that a bit of work re exdhaust extrac tion might=0A>be profitable, it seems to work well on Long EZs, hoping to v erify with flight testing in the next month.=0A>Graham=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>_____ ___________________________=0A> From: Paul McAllister =0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012, 17:32=0A>=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help=0A> =0A> =0A>Ha ha.... I wondered who was going to be first out of the=0Acloset, me or Fran=99s. =C2-Fran=99s and I have=0Abeen collaborating on a journey of discovery for the last couple of years.=C2- =0A>I have been reluctant to share what I have been doing,=0Amostly because up until now I have only been able to tell everyone what doesn't=0Awork! Both Fran's and I can share funny stories of tuft test showing air flow=0Aout where it shoul d be flowing in, some take offs where we couldn't get back on=0Athe ground quick enough due overheating and lots of work and re work.=0A>For me, I am still works in progress, but over the next=0Awinter I plan on a fourth iter ation over next winter which will be a similar=0Adesign to Fran=99s. If I can persuade my friend Graham Singleton to come and=0Avisit, it might even a new carbon fiber cowling :)=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-=0A>At a high level the sources of design material we used were:=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 -Kays & London wedge diffuser=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Ku chemann & Weber trumpet diffuser=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-C ooling design notes from the Central States=0ACanard Group=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Taper diffuser design from the Canard group=0A> * =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Oil Streaking presentations from the Central=0AStates Canard Group=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Thin k Vs. think radiator notes from Rotary=0AEngine forums.=0A>* =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2-=C2-Cooling Vs flow data from Rotax and Laminova=0A>=C2 -=0A>Our design criteria was:=0A>Cooling that works in all phases of oper ation:=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Ground=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2-Climb=0A>* =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Cruise=0A>Operates over a range of -5c to 40c=0A>Offers the lowest drag possible=0A>=C2-=0A>This ultimately dictated a few design solutions:=0A>=0A>=0A>Cowl Flap. =0A>This is the only way we could get cooling over a large speed=0Arange and ambient temperature.=0A>=C2-=0A>Laminova liquid oil=0Aheat exchanger.=0A>In one of the design iterations that Fran's had created he=0Ahad the oil and water radiators separated. Although this provided plenty of oil=0Aand liquid coo ling it caused a long cycle time to bring the oil temperature up=0Ato opera ting temperature. The Laminova solves this problem.=C2- One problem that Fran's and I have not been=0Aable to solve is the need for a small axillary oil radiator.=0A>=C2-=0A>Thick Vs. Thin=0ARadiators.=0A>I was ultimately able to make the thick radiator work with a=0AKuchemann & Weber trumpet di ffuser, but I intend to abandon this. From our=0Aresearch we have discovere d that 70 to 80% of the heat exchange occurs in the=0Afirst 20mm of the rad iator.=0A>=C2-=0A>Diffused Inlets.=0A>At first glance Fran's cowl appears to have no diffuser on=0Athe inlet side of the radiator, however it works very well.=C2- After reading the design notes for the Kays=0A& London wed ge diffuser our hypothesis is that because the coolant radiator=0Ais at an angle to the relative wind it behaves like a wedge diffusers.=0A>=C2-=0A> Other thoughts &=0Aobservations.=0A>Fran=99s has been flying a workin g solution for nearly a year=0Aand his design can be used as is.=C2- I am =0Adoing some experimentation with a single diffused inlet that provides th e=0Aengine combustion air, inter cooler and the engine shroud. =C2-Given the level of effort this has proved to=0Abe I wouldn=99t recommend an yone copying what I have done, and it remains to be=0Aseen if it even works .=0A>Over next winter I plan on removing the thick radiator and I=0Aexpect that this will be a lower drag configuration over what I have.=0A>Pointing the exhaust back is offers a lot of drag reduction.=0AI have some photograp hs that show the exhaust plume on the old style exhaust=0Ashooting out near ly 2 meters.=C2- For=0Amonowheel the exhaust needs to be much longer so t hat carbon monoxide does not=0Afind its way into cabin via the tunnel. Unfo rtunately this was complex bit of=0Astainless steel to fabricate.=0A>When m y cowling is fully open it is the same angle as the=0Astandard cowling.=C2 - I see 8 knots=0Adifference between fully open and fully closed.=C2- =0AThis isn't an exact comparison because when my cowl flap is open air=0Aw ill spill around the side and I expect this would be higher drag than the o riginal=0Acowl.=C2- I have done a number of long cross=0Acountry trips an d for the same manifold pressure settings I am seeing about 5=0Aknots incre ase in my cruise.=C2- I have Warp=0Adrive blades and I do not wing root f airings so my set up is not as efficient=0Aas Fran=99s.=0A>=0A>=0A>Re gards, Paul=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?_blank" href="http://fo rums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=0A> arget="_blank">http: //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_bl ==== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:13 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Aluminium Fuel Elbow From: "ploucandco" Hello Kinsgley, I got the aluminuim filler pipe from Tim. If you are interested, I am not using it and can send it to you for cost. By the way, seems that your e-mail is not working. Jacques Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376449#376449 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:14 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Europa-List: Europa AGM A short note to thank all of you that made todays AGM a great success despite the weather reducing the flying visitors, with none of our Continental colleagues being able to travel. 13 Europas turned up not counting the 3 resident Europas at Popham. All of the Committee worked tirelessly to make the day a success and special thanks go to Nigel Graham our treasurer who proved once more what a talent he is in the kitchen as well. The stuffed lamb roast was a great hit with everyone. Photos to follow shortly. Regards Steve Pitt Chairman (again!!) PS we will be at Popham again tomorrow with lamb sandwiches on the menu!! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:27 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa AGM And many thanks to you Steve and all your team on site who have clearly got through a lot of hard work in difficult circumstances. David On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:35:05 +0100 "Steven Pitt" wrote: > > > A short note to thank all of you that made todays AGM a >great success despite the weather reducing the flying >visitors, with none of our Continental colleagues being >able to travel. 13 Europas turned up not counting the 3 >resident Europas at Popham. > All of the Committee worked tirelessly to make the day a >success and special thanks go to Nigel Graham our >treasurer who proved once more what a talent he is in the >kitchen as well. The stuffed lamb roast was a great hit >with everyone. > Photos to follow shortly. > Regards > Steve Pitt > Chairman (again!!) > PS we will be at Popham again tomorrow with lamb >sandwiches on the menu!! > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.