---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/26/12: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (Max Cointe (Eliops)) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: Europa AGM (Mike Gamble) 3. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (Karl Heindl) 4. 08:15 AM - Schicke Regulator at last (G-IANI) 5. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 6. 09:45 AM - Re: Europa AGM (goff) 7. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (David Joyce) 8. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 9. 11:54 AM - Annual Rough River Fly in - 5,6 & 7 of October (Paul McAllister) 10. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (Frans Veldman) 11. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (Frans Veldman) 12. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (Karl Heindl) 13. 11:52 PM - Re: Re: Contact detail & Help (GRAHAM SINGLETON) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:36 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe (Eliops)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Hi Frans, I'm a bit puzzle by your first picture: are the blue pipes directly connected to that flat radiator? I think these end at the bottom level of the exhaust, so what is the shape of the radiator... Other question: have you experienced (or do you think there is) differences on that topic between 914 and 912? Max Cointe F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 420 hours mcointe@free.fr -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Frans Veldman Envoy: lundi 25 juin 2012 23:10 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Hi Karl, > I have been following your developments with great interest and I > think that the end result is just plain amazing. Thanks! > Now, top speed is very useful for testing drag improvements, but you > don't cruise at those speeds, do you ? When you are touring, what are > your preferred settings regarding speed, MP, rpm etc., and exactly > what is your fuel consumption then. I found the sweet spot of the aircraft is with 27 inch MAP, where it usually cruises with a speed somewhere between 120 and 130 KIAS, depending on C of G and some other obscure factors. Fuel consumption used to be 16 to 17 liters per hour, but I have observed this year that the fuel consumption has increased to 18 liters per hour. Maybe the carbs need an overhaul or so. RPM is usually between 4800 and 5000 RPM, this feels best for the engine. I have a two blade prop and at lower RPM's it feels less smooth. Of course actual settings depend on various circumstances. With a strong head wind we usually advance the throttle a bit, with a tail wind we enjoy the lower fuel consumption of a lower power setting. We fly 90% of our cruising with power between 26 and 28 inch. With higher power settings the fuel consumption goes up faster than the gain in speed. Other than in a car, a higher speed doesn't give any other feeling than a lower speed, it just gives the same sensation. One hour flying is still one hour flying. On a 3-hour trip I rather enjoy an additional 10 minutes flying and have a free meal than just cranking up the fuel consumption, paying more for less fun. AVGAS can be close to 3 Euro's per liter over here, so saving 10 liters on a trip can save enough money to have a dinner for two! ;-) I love telling friends that flying there isn't more expensive than getting there by car. > If the rest of us mortals wanted to implement some of your changes > without too much expense, what would you recommend ? There isn't much money involved actually. The radiator costs about 300 Euro's, the heat exchanger a bit less. You can do without the heat exchanger, I have been flying one summer with the stock oil radiator fed by a 2" Scat tube via a wedge diffuser. Apart from the long warm up time it was quite an improvement over the tandem setup. Best thing to do is to scrap the stock coolant radiator, dog house, duct and associated hardware and just install a thin radiator in a 45 degree angle in front of the exhaust and turbo. The main hurdle here is to shape a new underside of the cowling. You have to be brave enough to cut the dog house away, and then insert a block of blue foam and start cutting, rasping, sanding until you have the shape you desire. Anyone who wants to make a mold out of my cowling is welcome to do so, provided I'm allowed to use that mold to make a new light weight carbon cowling for myself. ;-) BTW I'm not the only one who devised something like this. See the attached picture. This is another configuration with a thin radiator in a 45 degree angle, although it lacks a cowl flap and heat exchanger for the oil. (Oil is cooled by a radiator, fed by a NASA duct on the port side, you can see it on the picture). Also this owner claims very good results with his setup on his 914 engine. The key really is to use a thin radiator and mount it at the belly so the "used" air can take the heat of the exhaust with it, and enjoy the benefits of a very sleek cowling, excellent cooling, low pressure losses, and minimal cooling drag. Anyway, my cooling design is not an exclusive invention of me but the combination of ideas and experiments of multiple Europa owners who believed that the cooling of the Europa could be improved other than by using draggy brute force solutions. > What is the part number for the > heat exchanger and exactly where did you install it ? See picture, taken from under the engine. The heat exchanger is mounted behind the engine. This was the first setup, with the stock coolant radiator, hence the configuration of the coolant hoses pointing downwards. In the current design the hose routing has been changed to accomodate for the thin belly radiator. If you really want to go this way, contact me privately for more info. One caveat though: this heat exchanger has very thin canals and is not compatible with Evans coolant due to its viscosity. I use it with 50/50 without problems. > It also had a very > small (8AH?) battery. I also have a small 8Ah battery, never needed anything more than that. But I have a second alternator (mounted on the vaccuum pad) so I don't need the battery as a backup during flight, I just need it for starting. Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:17 AM PST US From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa AGM Steve et al, Very many thanks for the effort you chaps put in to make the AGM day a success. A shame the weather kept the numbers down and a pity I was not able to stay on and make an evening of it - that nosh looked particularly attractive and the supplied lubrication was a further temptation. Mike Gamble G-CFMP Xs mono ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:52 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Hi Frans=2C Thank you for the additional information. I will follow your advice=2C but probably not until next year.If you are going to publish in the flyer=2C th en some good pictures please of the radiator installations.Also=2C a source for the rads. You mentioned that the prop is not as smooth at lower rpm's. I have the sam e prop and I discovered a long time ago that the carbs need to be in sync 1 00% for a two-bladed prop. With three blades the carbs would need to be out of sync quite a bit before you would notice. I know=2C because I tried it by putting my original Warp Drive back on. Karl > Date: Mon=2C 25 Jun 2012 23:09:34 +0200 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help > > Hi Karl=2C > > > I have been following your developments with great interest and I think > > that the end result is just plain amazing. > > Thanks! > > > Now=2C top speed is very useful for testing drag improvements=2C but yo u > > don't cruise at those speeds=2C do you ? When you are touring=2C what a re > > your preferred settings regarding speed=2C MP=2C rpm etc.=2C and exactl y what > > is your fuel consumption then. > > I found the sweet spot of the aircraft is with 27 inch MAP=2C where it > usually cruises with a speed somewhere between 120 and 130 KIAS=2C > depending on C of G and some other obscure factors. Fuel consumption > used to be 16 to 17 liters per hour=2C but I have observed this year that > the fuel consumption has increased to 18 liters per hour. Maybe the > carbs need an overhaul or so. > RPM is usually between 4800 and 5000 RPM=2C this feels best for the > engine. I have a two blade prop and at lower RPM's it feels less smooth. > Of course actual settings depend on various circumstances. With a strong > head wind we usually advance the throttle a bit=2C with a tail wind we > enjoy the lower fuel consumption of a lower power setting. We fly 90% of > our cruising with power between 26 and 28 inch. > With higher power settings the fuel consumption goes up faster than the > gain in speed. Other than in a car=2C a higher speed doesn't give any > other feeling than a lower speed=2C it just gives the same sensation. One > hour flying is still one hour flying. On a 3-hour trip I rather enjoy an > additional 10 minutes flying and have a free meal than just cranking up > the fuel consumption=2C paying more for less fun. AVGAS can be close to 3 > Euro's per liter over here=2C so saving 10 liters on a trip can save > enough money to have a dinner for two! =3B-) I love telling friends that > flying there isn't more expensive than getting there by car. > > > If the rest of us mortals wanted to implement some of your changes > > without too much expense=2C what would you recommend ? > > There isn't much money involved actually. The radiator costs about 300 > Euro's=2C the heat exchanger a bit less. You can do without the heat > exchanger=2C I have been flying one summer with the stock oil radiator fe d > by a 2" Scat tube via a wedge diffuser. Apart from the long warm up time > it was quite an improvement over the tandem setup. Best thing to do is > to scrap the stock coolant radiator=2C dog house=2C duct and associated > hardware and just install a thin radiator in a 45 degree angle in front > of the exhaust and turbo. > > The main hurdle here is to shape a new underside of the cowling. You > have to be brave enough to cut the dog house away=2C and then insert a > block of blue foam and start cutting=2C rasping=2C sanding until you have > the shape you desire. Anyone who wants to make a mold out of my cowling > is welcome to do so=2C provided I'm allowed to use that mold to make a ne w > light weight carbon cowling for myself. =3B-) > > BTW I'm not the only one who devised something like this. See the > attached picture. This is another configuration with a thin radiator in > a 45 degree angle=2C although it lacks a cowl flap and heat exchanger for > the oil. (Oil is cooled by a radiator=2C fed by a NASA duct on the port > side=2C you can see it on the picture). Also this owner claims very good > results with his setup on his 914 engine. The key really is to use a > thin radiator and mount it at the belly so the "used" air can take the > heat of the exhaust with it=2C and enjoy the benefits of a very sleek > cowlng=2C excellent cooling=2C low pressure losses=2C and minimal cooling drag. > > Anyway=2C my cooling design is not an exclusive invention of me but the > combination of ideas and experiments of multiple Europa owners who > believed that the cooling of the Europa could be improved other than by > using draggy brute force solutions. > > > What is the part number for the > > heat exchanger and exactly where did you install it ? > > See picture=2C taken from under the engine. The heat exchanger is mounted > behind the engine. This was the first setup=2C with the stock coolant > radiator=2C hence the configuration of the coolant hoses pointing > downwards. In the current design the hose routing has been changed to > accomodate for the thin belly radiator. > If you really want to go this way=2C contact me privately for more info. > One caveat though: this heat exchanger has very thin canals and is not > compatible with Evans coolant due to its viscosity. I use it with 50/50 > without problems. > > > It also had a very > > small (8AH?) battery. > > I also have a small 8Ah battery=2C never needed anything more than that. > But I have a second alternator (mounted on the vaccuum pad) so I don't > need the battery as a backup during flight=2C I just need it for starting .. > > Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:03 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: Europa-List: Schicke Regulator at last At long last! You will be pleased to know that the Schicke GR6 voltage regulator has been approved. The Mod details are in the Rotax standard mods section on the LAA web site Number, SM12970 Note that the circuit diagram differs slightly from the diagram supplied by Schicke. The LAA circuit should be used. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:34 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Karl=0A3 blades will always be smoother because when the 2 blades are horiz ontal each blade sees a-=0Adifferent-AoA,-especially-with high angl es of attack. This causes different thrist on the blades resulting-=0Ain yawing oscillation of the airplane.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A______________________ __________=0A From: Karl Heindl =0ATo: europa-list@matroni cs.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012, 14:57=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Re : Contact detail & Help=0A =0A=0A =0AHi Frans,=0A=0AThank you for the addit ional information. I will follow your advice, but probably not until next y ear.=0AIf you are going to publish in the flyer, then some good pictures pl ease of the radiator installations.=0AAlso, a source for the rads.=0A=0AYou mentioned that the prop is not as smooth at lower rpm's. I have the same p rop and I discovered a long time ago that the carbs need to be in sync 100% for a two-bladed prop. With three blades the carbs would need to be out of sync quite a bit before you would notice. I know, because I tried it by pu tting my original Warp Drive back on.=0A=0AKarl=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A> Da te: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:09:34 +0200=0A> From: frans@privatepilots.nl=0A> To : europa-list@matronics.com=0A> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detai l & Help=0A> =0A> Hi Karl,=0A> =0A> > I have been following your developmen ts with great interest and I think=0A> > that the end result is just plain amazing.=0A> =0A> Thanks!=0A> =0A> > Now, top speed is very useful for test ing drag improvements, but you=0A> > don't cruise at those speeds, do you ? When you are touring, what are=0A> > your preferred settings regarding spe ed, MP, rpm etc., and exactly what=0A> > is your fuel consumption then.=0A> =0A> I found the sweet spot of the aircraft is with 27 inch MAP, where it =0A> usually cruises with a speed somewhere between 120 and 130 KIAS,=0A> d epending on C of G and some other obscure factors. Fuel consumption=0A> use d to be 16 to 17 liters per hour, but I have observed this year that=0A> th e fuel consumption has increased to 18 liters per hour. Maybe the=0A> carbs need an overhaul or so.=0A> RPM is usually between 4800 and 5000 RPM, this feels best for the=0A> engine. I have a two blade prop and at lower RPM's it feels less smooth.=0A> Of course actual settings depend on various circu mstances. With a strong=0A> head wind we usually advance the throttle a bit , with a tail wind we=0A> enjoy the lower fuel consumption of a lower power setting. We fly 90% of=0A> our cruising with power between 26 and 28 inch. =0A> With higher power settings the fuel consumption goes up faster than th e=0A> gain in speed. Other than in a car, a higher speed doesn't give any =0A> other feeling than a lower speed, it just gives the same sensation. On e=0A> hour flying is still one hour flying. On a 3-hour trip I rather enjoy an=0A> additional 10 minutes flying and have a free meal than just crankin g up=0A> the fuel consumption, paying more for less fun. AVGAS can be close to 3=0A> Euro's per liter over here, so saving 10 liters on a trip can sav e=0A> enough money to have a dinner for two! ;-) I love telling friends tha t=0A> flying there isn't more expensive than getting there by car.=0A> =0A> > If the rest of us mortals wanted to implement some of your changes=0A> > without too much expense, what would you recommend ?=0A> =0A> There isn't much money involved actually. The radiator costs about 300=0A> Euro's, the heat exchanger a bit less. You can do without the heat=0A> exchanger, I hav e been flying one summer with the stock oil radiator fed=0A> by a 2" Scat t ube via a wedge diffuser. Apart from the long warm up time=0A> it was quite an improvement over the tandem setup. Best thing to do is=0A> to scrap the stock coolant radiator, dog house, duct and associated=0A> hardware and ju st install a thin radiator in a 45 degree angle in front=0A> of the exhaust and turbo.=0A> =0A> The main hurdle here is to shape a new underside of th e cowling. You=0A> have to be brave enough to cut the dog house away, and t hen insert a=0A> block of blue foam and start cutting, rasping, sanding unt il you have=0A> the shape you desire. Anyone who wants to make a mold out o f my cowling=0A> is welcome to do so, provided I'm allowed to use that mold to make a new=0A> light weight carbon cowling for myself. ;-)=0A> =0A> BTW I'm not the only one who devised something like this. See the=0A> attached picture. This is another configuration with a thin radiator in=0A> a 45 de gree angle, although it lacks a cowl flap and heat exchanger for=0A> the oi l. (Oil is cooled by a radiator, fed by a NASA duct on the port=0A> side, y ou can see it on the picture). Also this owner claims very good=0A> results with his setup on his 914 engine. The key really is to use a=0A> thin radi ator and mount it at the belly so the "used" air can take the=0A> heat of t he exhaust with it, and enjoy the benefits of a very sleek=0A> cowlng, exce llent cooling, low pressure losses, and minimal cooling drag.=0A> =0A> Anyw ay, my cooling design is not an exclusive invention of me but the=0A> combi nation of ideas and experiments of multiple Europa owners who=0A> believed that the cooling of the Europa could be improved other than by=0A> using dr aggy brute force solutions.=0A> =0A> > What is the part number for the=0A> > heat exchanger and exactly where did you install it ?=0A> =0A> See pictur e, taken from under the engine. The heat exchanger is mounted=0A> behind th e engine. This was the first setup, with the stock coolant=0A> radiator, he nce the configuration of the coolant hoses pointing=0A> downwards. In the c urrent design the hose routing has been changed to=0A> accomodate for the t hin belly radiator.=0A> If you really want to go this way, contact me priva tely for more info.=0A> One caveat though: this heat exchanger has very thi n canals and is not=0A> compatible with Evans coolant due to its viscosity. I use it with 50/50=0A> without problems.=0A> =0A> > It also had a very=0A > > small (8AH?) battery.=0A> =0A> I also have a small 8Ah battery, never n eeded anything more than that.=0A> But I have a second alternator (mounted on the vaccuum pad) so I don't=0A> need the battery as a backup during flig ===== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:32 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa AGM From: "goff" Steve, sorry I couldn't make the AGM. I was in the States. Well done for all your efforts this year. Any lamb left? Goff Goff Moore Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376652#376652 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:22 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Graham, In my innocence I thought that the plane was designed so that in normal cruise attitude the engine axis was horizontal and the blades at equal AOA Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:37:01 +0100 (BST) GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Karl > 3 blades will always be smoother because when the 2 >blades are horizontal each blade sees a > differentAoA,especiallywith high angles of attack. >This causes different thrist on the blades resulting > in yawing oscillation of the airplane. > Graham > > > ________________________________ > From: Karl Heindl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012, 14:57 > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help > > > > Hi Frans, > > Thank you for the additional information. I will follow >your advice, but probably not until next year. > If you are going to publish in the flyer, then some good >pictures please of the radiator installations. > Also, a source for the rads. > > You mentioned that the prop is not as smooth at lower >rpm's. I have the same prop and I discovered a long time >ago that the carbs need to be in sync 100% for a >two-bladed prop. With three blades the carbs would need >to be out of sync quite a bit before you would notice. I >know, because I tried it by putting my original Warp >Drive back on. > > Karl > > > > > > > >> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:09:34 +0200 >> From: frans@privatepilots.nl >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help >> >> Hi Karl, >> >> > I have been following your developments with great >>interest and I think >> > that the end result is just plain amazing. >> >> Thanks! >> >> > Now, top speed is very useful for testing drag >>improvements, but you >> > don't cruise at those speeds, do you ? When you are >>touring, what are >> > your preferred settings regarding speed, MP, rpm etc., >>and exactly what >> > is your fuel consumption then. >> >> I found the sweet spot of the aircraft is with 27 inch >>MAP, where it >> usually cruises with a speed somewhere between 120 and >>130 KIAS, >> depending on C of G and some other obscure factors. Fuel >>consumption >> used to be 16 to 17 liters per hour, but I have observed >>this year that >> the fuel consumption has increased to 18 liters per >>hour. Maybe the >> carbs need an overhaul or so. >> RPM is usually between 4800 and 5000 RPM, this feels >>best for the >> engine. I have a two blade prop and at lower RPM's it >>feels less smooth. >> Of course actual settings depend on various >>circumstances. With a strong >> head wind we usually advance the throttle a bit, with a >>tail wind we >> enjoy the lower fuel consumption of a lower power >>setting. We fly 90% of >> our cruising with power between 26 and 28 inch. >> With higher power settings the fuel consumption goes up >>faster than the >> gain in speed. Other than in a car, a higher speed >>doesn't give any >> other feeling than a lower speed, it just gives the same >>sensation. One >> hour flying is still one hour flying. On a 3-hour trip I >>rather enjoy an >> additional 10 minutes flying and have a free meal than >>just cranking up >> the fuel consumption, paying more for less fun. AVGAS >>can be close to 3 >> Euro's per liter over here, so saving 10 liters on a >>trip can save >> enough money to have a dinner for two! ;-) I love >>telling friends that >> flying there isn't more expensive than getting there by >>car. >> >> > If the rest of us mortals wanted to implement some of >>your changes >> > without too much expense, what would you recommend ? >> >> There isn't much money involved actually. The radiator >>costs about 300 >> Euro's, the heat exchanger a bit less. You can do >>without the heat >> exchanger, I have been flying one summer with the stock >>oil radiator fed >> by a 2" Scat tube via a wedge diffuser. Apart from the >>long warm up time >> it was quite an improvement over the tandem setup. Best >>thing to do is >> to scrap the stock coolant radiator, dog house, duct and >>associated >> hardware and just install a thin radiator in a 45 degree >>angle in front >> of the exhaust and turbo. >> >> The main hurdle here is to shape a new underside of the >>cowling. You >> have to be brave enough to cut the dog house away, and >>then insert a >> block of blue foam and start cutting, rasping, sanding >>until you have >> the shape you desire. Anyone who wants to make a mold >>out of my cowling >> is welcome to do so, provided I'm allowed to use that >>mold to make a new >> light weight carbon cowling for myself. ;-) >> >> BTW I'm not the only one who devised something like >>this. See the >> attached picture. This is another configuration with a >>thin radiator in >> a 45 degree angle, although it lacks a cowl flap and >>heat exchanger for >> the oil. (Oil is cooled by a radiator, fed by a NASA >>duct on the port >> side, you can see it on the picture). Also this owner >>claims very good >> results with his setup on his 914 engine. The key really >>is to use a >> thin radiator and mount it at the belly so the "used" >>air can take the >> heat of the exhaust with it, and enjoy the benefits of a >>very sleek >> cowlng, excellent cooling, low pressure losses, and >>minimal cooling drag. >> >> Anyway, my cooling design is not an exclusive invention >>of me but the >> combination of ideas and experiments of multiple Europa >>owners who >> believed that the cooling of the Europa could be >>improved other than by >> using draggy brute force solutions. >> >> > What is the part number for the >> > heat exchanger and exactly where did you install it ? >> >> See picture, taken from under the engine. The heat >>exchanger is mounted >> behind the engine. This was the first setup, with the >>stock coolant >> radiator, hence the configuration of the coolant hoses >>pointing >> downwards. In the current design the hose routing has >>been changed to >> accomodate for the thin belly radiator. >> If you really want to go this way, contact me privately >>for more info. >> One caveat though: this heat exchanger has very thin >>canals and is not >> compatible with Evans coolant due to its viscosity. I >>use it with 50/50 >> without problems. >> >> > It also had a very >> > small (8AH?) battery. >> >> I also have a small 8Ah battery, never needed anything >>more than that. >> But I have a second alternator (mounted on the vaccuum >>pad) so I don't >> need the battery as a backup during flig===== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:27 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Hi David=0AYes it probably is, but it's at low speeds and high power on cli mb out that the vibration is worst.-=0AWith multi blade props the problem -isn't-as bad. I'm not good enough at maths to explain why=0Abut I am j ust reiterating what Bruno Guimbal said years ago. He designed a very attra ctive looking helicopter I once saw at-=0Athe RSA Rally years ago. He see ms to have moved on, haven't heard anything for years. Very experienced aer ospace engineer=0Awho built a Vari Eze around 1978 which he flew to Leicest er when our rally was there in 1979 I think.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0A From: David Joyce =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012, 18:35=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help=0A =0A--> Europa-List message po sted by: "David Joyce" =0A=0AGraham, In my innoc ence I thought that the plane was designed so that in normal cruise attitud e the engine axis was horizontal and the blades at equal AOA=0ARegards, Dav id Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:37:01 +0100 (BST)=0AGRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A> Karl=0A> 3 blades wil l always be smoother because when the 2 blades are horizontal each blade se es a-=0A> different-AoA,-especially-with high angles of attack. Thi s causes different thrist on the blades resulting-=0A> in yawing oscillat ion of the airplane.=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> _____________________________ ___=0A> From: Karl Heindl =0A> To: europa-list@matronics.c om Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012, 14:57=0A> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Con tact detail & Help=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Hi Frans,=0A> =0A> Thank you for the additional information. I will follow your advice, but probably not until n ext year.=0A> If you are going to publish in the flyer, then some good pict ures please of the radiator installations.=0A> Also, a source for the rads. =0A> =0A> You mentioned that the prop is not as smooth at lower rpm's. I ha ve the same prop and I discovered a long time ago that the carbs need to be in sync 100% for a two-bladed prop. With three blades the carbs would need to be out of sync quite a bit before you would notice. I know, because I t ried it by putting my original Warp Drive back on.=0A> =0A> Karl=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:09:34 +0200=0A>> F rom: frans@privatepilots.nl=0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com=0A>> Subject : Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help=0A>> =0A>> Hi Karl,=0A>> =0A>> > I have been following your developments with great interest and I think =0A>> > that the end result is just plain amazing.=0A>> =0A>> Thanks!=0A>> =0A>> > Now, top speed is very useful for testing drag improvements, but yo u=0A>> > don't cruise at those speeds, do you ? When you are touring, what are=0A>> > your preferred settings regarding speed, MP, rpm etc., and exact ly what=0A>> > is your fuel consumption then.=0A>> =0A>> I found the sweet spot of the aircraft is with 27 inch MAP, where it=0A>> usually cruises wit h a speed somewhere between 120 and 130 KIAS,=0A>> depending on C of G and some other obscure factors. Fuel consumption=0A>> used to be 16 to 17 liter s per hour, but I have observed this year that=0A>> the fuel consumption ha s increased to 18 liters per hour. Maybe the=0A>> carbs need an overhaul or so.=0A>> RPM is usually between 4800 and 5000 RPM, this feels best for the =0A>> engine. I have a two blade prop and at lower RPM's it feels less smoo th.=0A>> Of course actual settings depend on various circumstances. With a strong=0A>> head wind we usually advance the throttle a bit, with a tail wi nd we=0A>> enjoy the lower fuel consumption of a lower power setting. We fl y 90% of=0A>> our cruising with power between 26 and 28 inch.=0A>> With hig her power settings the fuel consumption goes up faster than the=0A>> gain i n speed. Other than in a car, a higher speed doesn't give any=0A>> other fe eling than a lower speed, it just gives the same sensation. One=0A>> hour f lying is still one hour flying. On a 3-hour trip I rather enjoy an=0A>> add itional 10 minutes flying and have a free meal than just cranking up=0A>> t he fuel consumption, paying more for less fun. AVGAS can be close to 3=0A>> Euro's per liter over here, so saving 10 liters on a trip can save=0A>> en ough money to have a dinner for two! ;-) I love telling friends that=0A>> f lying there isn't more expensive than getting there by car.=0A>> =0A>> > If the rest of us mortals wanted to implement some of your changes=0A>> > wit hout too much expense, what would you recommend ?=0A>> =0A>> There isn't mu ch money involved actually. The radiator costs about 300=0A>> Euro's, the h eat exchanger a bit less. You can do without the heat=0A>> exchanger, I hav e been flying one summer with the stock oil radiator fed=0A>> by a 2" Scat tube via a wedge diffuser. Apart from the long warm up time=0A>> it was qui te an improvement over the tandem setup. Best thing to do is=0A>> to scrap the stock coolant radiator, dog house, duct and associated=0A>> hardware an d just install a thin radiator in a 45 degree angle in front=0A>> of the ex haust and turbo.=0A>> =0A>> The main hurdle here is to shape a new undersid e of the cowling. You=0A>> have to be brave enough to cut the dog house awa y, and then insert a=0A>> block of blue foam and start cutting, rasping, sa nding until you have=0A>> the shape you desire. Anyone who wants to make a mold out of my cowling=0A>> is welcome to do so, provided I'm allowed to us e that mold to make a new=0A>> light weight carbon cowling for myself. ;-) =0A>> =0A>> BTW I'm not the only one who devised something like this. See t he=0A>> attached picture. This is another configuration with a thin radiato r in=0A>> a 45 degree angle, although it lacks a cowl flap and heat exchang er for=0A>> the oil. (Oil is cooled by a radiator, fed by a NASA duct on th e port=0A>> side, you can see it on the picture). Also this owner claims ve ry good=0A>> results with his setup on his 914 engine. The key really is to use a=0A>> thin radiator and mount it at the belly so the "used" air can t ake the=0A>> heat of the exhaust with it, and enjoy the benefits of a very sleek=0A>> cowlng, excellent cooling, low pressure losses, and minimal cool ing drag.=0A>> =0A>> Anyway, my cooling design is not an exclusive inventio n of me but the=0A>> combination of ideas and experiments of multiple Europ a owners who=0A>> believed that the cooling of the Europa could be improved other than by=0A>> using draggy brute force solutions.=0A>> =0A>> > What i s the part number for the=0A>> > heat exchanger and exactly where did you i nstall it ?=0A>> =0A>> See picture, taken from under the engine. The heat e xchanger is mounted=0A>> behind the engine. This was the first setup, with the stock coolant=0A>> radiator, hence the configuration of the coolant hos es pointing=0A>> downwards. In the current design the hose routing has been changed to=0A>> accomodate for the thin belly radiator.=0A>> If you really want to go this way, contact me privately for more info.=0A>> One caveat t hough: this heat exchanger has very thin canals and is not=0A>> compatible with Evans coolant due to its viscosity. I use it with 50/50=0A>> without p roblems.=0A>> =0A>> > It also had a very=0A>> > small (8AH?) battery.=0A>> =0A>> I also have a small 8Ah battery, never needed anything more than that .=0A>> But I have a second alternator (mounted on the vaccuum pad) so I don ============= ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:27 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Annual Rough River Fly in - 5,6 & 7 of October From: Paul McAllister Hello everyone, I just wanted to put a reminder out to the forum that this years Fly In is for 5,6 & 7 of October at Rough River. We have a block of 10 rooms booked at that resort which are a mixture of lodge rooms and cabins. At this time only two lodge rooms have been booked, so I would ask folks if they intend to come along to call and make a reservation as we will need to release the unused rooms back to the resort. Room Single: 1 Adult $80.96 Room Double: 2 Adults $80.96 Standard Cottage: $107.96 (Up to 8 Adults, each additional adult is $10.00 per person) Deluxe Cottage: $143.96 (Up to 8 Adults, each additional adult is $10.00 per person) Executive Cottage: $170.96 (Up to 8 Adults, each additional adult is $10.00 per person) Please make sure that you reference our block reservation when making your booking. Thanks and regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:03 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help On 06/26/2012 03:09 PM, Max Cointe (Eliops) wrote: > I'm a bit puzzle by your first picture: are the blue pipes directly > connected to that flat radiator? As I wrote, this picture was taken when I was still using the stock radiator. The hose routing has been changed when I upgraded to the flat radiator. Actually I now use aluminium pipes for the coolant for most of the routing, because of the close proximity of the exhaust. > Other question: have you experienced (or do you think there is) differences > on that topic between 914 and 912? I have no 912, but as far as I know the 914 is the most difficult engine to cool, so if it works on a 914 it should work well on a 912. Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:47 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Hi Karl, > You mentioned that the prop is not as smooth at lower rpm's. I have the > same prop and I discovered a long time ago that the carbs need to be in > sync 100% for a two-bladed prop. I agree with you. My carbs are 100% balanced, so the whole setup runs very smooth. However, it just feels the engine runs best at 5000 RPM. I called it "smooth" in my previous post, but it has nothing to do with vibrations, it is just the general impression that the engine gives. At RPMs below 4700 it just sounds a bit as if the engine is labouring, hard to describe precisely what I mean as English is a foreign language for me. On the ground the prop sounds very mean, especially if the wind is not precisely at front. I guess the inner part with lots of twist just stalls out if there is not enough airspeed. Once airborn the prop is very silent. Do you also have the large twist prop? Frans ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:12 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help Frans=2C My prop is the identical model to yours=3B I was the first to install one =2C which prompted Woodcomp to make the first 10 inch spinner.It (the prop) makes a very nice low frequency sound when you listen to it from outside t he aircraft. Karl > Date: Wed=2C 27 Jun 2012 00:00:11 +0200 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help > > > Hi Karl=2C > > > You mentioned that the prop is not as smooth at lower rpm's. I have the > > same prop and I discovered a long time ago that the carbs need to be in > > sync 100% for a two-bladed prop. > > I agree with you. My carbs are 100% balanced=2C so the whole setup runs > very smooth. However=2C it just feels the engine runs best at 5000 RPM. I > called it "smooth" in my previous post=2C but it has nothing to do with > vibrations=2C it is just the general impression that the engine gives. At > RPMs below 4700 it just sounds a bit as if the engine is labouring=2C har d > to describe precisely what I mean as English is a foreign language for me .. > > On the ground the prop sounds very mean=2C especially if the wind is not > precisely at front. I guess the inner part with lots of twist just > stalls out if there is not enough airspeed. Once airborn the prop is > very silent. > Do you also have the large twist prop? > > Frans > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:55 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Contact detail & Help The Diamond Katana has a 2 blade Hoffman (doesn't it?) which makes the Rota x sound more like a quiet Lycoming!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A______________________ __________=0A From: Karl Heindl =0ATo: europa-list@matroni cs.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012, 22:39=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Re : Contact detail & Help=0A =0A=0A =0A=0AFrans,=0A=0AMy prop is the identica l model to yours; I was the first to install one, which prompted Woodcomp t o make the first 10 inch spinner.=0AIt (the prop) makes a very nice low fre quency sound when you listen to it from outside the aircraft.=0A=0AKarl=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:00:11 +0200=0A> From: frans@private pilots.nl=0A> To: europa-list@matronics.com=0A> Subject: Re: Europa-List: R Veldman =0A> =0A> Hi Karl,=0A> =0A> > You mentioned that the prop is not as smooth at lower rpm's. I have the=0A> > same prop and I discovered a long time ago that the carbs need to be in=0A> > sync 10 0% for a two-bladed prop.=0A> =0A> I agree with you. My carbs are 100% bala nced, so the whole setup runs=0A> very smooth. However, it just feels the e ngine runs best at 5000 RPM. I=0A> called it "smooth" in my previous post, but it has nothing to do with=0A> vibrations, it is just the general impres sion that the engine gives. At=0A> RPMs below 4700 it just sounds a bit as if the engine is labouring, hard=0A> to describe precisely what I mean as E nglish is a foreign language for me.=0A> =0A> On the ground the prop sounds very mean, especially if the wind is not=0A> precisely at front. I guess t he inner part with lots of twist just=0A> stalls out if there is not enough airspeed. Once airborn the prop is=0A> very silent.=0A> Do you also have t =========================0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.