Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:18 AM - 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
2. 03:52 AM - Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet (Mark Burton)
3. 04:46 AM - Re: Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet (Karl Heindl)
4. 05:16 AM - Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet (Mark Burton)
5. 06:22 AM - Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet (JonSmith)
6. 09:46 AM - SV: Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
7. 01:14 PM - Re: The Standard Warning Light (Alan Carter)
8. 02:00 PM - Rotax 912ULS and VP prop required (William Bliss)
9. 02:07 PM - Re: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made (Neville Eyre)
10. 02:52 PM - Re: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made (Pete Lawless)
11. 07:39 PM - Re: Thin Stainless Steel (Bud Yerly)
12. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: The Standard Warning Light (Robert Borger)
13. 08:25 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS and VP prop required (Robert Borger)
14. 08:44 PM - Re: Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet (Robert Borger)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet |
No two symptoms are alike, and I do not find what I am experiencing in the
Europa List archives:
- Cold start with choke, throttle idle: Instant ignition, VERY
rough running for one-two seconds, then smooth (see below, hwr).
- Warm start: No choke, some throttle: A little rough for one -
two seconds, then smooth (see below, hwr).
- Magnet check @ 4 000 rpm: rpm drops are well within limits, also
differential rpm drop (abt 50 rpm). Hwr, on magnet A it runs a little
rough, but not much. Smooth on B.
This happens every time I start up, exactly the same "behavior", so it is a
little difficult to imagine that a poor connection/broken wire strands in
the ignition circuit is the cause. One would in such case expect some
variation e.g. in the time it takes to get smooth running, wouldn't one?
I have replaced all the spark plugs. No improvement, neither re. starting
nor magnet check. The old plugs were all looking good, light greyish-brown
colour and no soot deposits.
I have checked that choke & throttle on both sides work in sync.
The service agent for Scandinavia suggest that this may not have a common
cause. He recommends the following:
- Install new battery, the 912ULS is a hard one to turn (about time
to do this, but I do not think this is the cause).
- Synchronize the carbs (the symptoms began only 4 hours flying
time after last synchronization). May cause the symptoms at mag.check, he
says.
- Check the ignition wires at the electronic boxes on top of engine
and to/on the plugs, with the engine idling.
Any other suggestions will be very much appreciated.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet |
Hi Svein,
How about checking the ignition pickup gaps. Perhaps, they are wide enough to make
the ignition unreliable at very low RPM (i.e. when starting).
Cheers,
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377848#377848
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet |
Hi Mark=2C
Sometimes I had the same problem=2C as if the engine is running on one cyli
nder.Where exactly is this ignition pickup point and what should the gap be
?
Cheers=2C
Karl
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet
> From: markb@ordern.com
> Date: Tue=2C 10 Jul 2012 03:51:14 -0700
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Hi Svein=2C
>
> How about checking the ignition pickup gaps. Perhaps=2C they are wide eno
ugh to make the ignition unreliable at very low RPM (i.e. when starting).
>
> Cheers=2C
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377848#377848
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet |
Hi Karl,
Sorry, I can't remember what the min/max gaps should be and I no longer own a Rotax
engine but I'm sure someone here can advise you (and the numbers are in the
manual).
Cheers,
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377854#377854
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet |
Hi Svein, just a thought - probably not relevant to you but do you have the small
starter motor or the larger heavy duty one installed? It's just that I was
having the exact same starting problems that you've described.
I was advised to bin my existing small starter and fit the large one which I did
just two weeks ago. It's early days yet and I'm never one to be naively complacent
but so far I'll say cautiously that the results have been startlingly
brilliant. I've only done a few starts with the new starter yet but (fingers
crossed) the starting problem has been completely cured.
I was told that with the old starter the engine can start firing at a low rpm as
it can't accelerate it quickly enough for the advanced ignition to kick in and
so it remains on retarded ignition. Especially if there is a bit of wear in
the gearbox the prop can end up rocking backwards and forwards between ignition
pulses, stopping the engine accelerating further. The large starter motor
in theory turns at the same speed as the small one but has much more torque to
accelerate the engine rpm quickly beyond the point where this problem occurs.
( This explanation is purely what I've been told and certainly not my field
of expertise!)
Of course you've probably got the large starter motor already so this would not
be relevant apart from I think it's important to be completely confident that
your battery and all the battery connections and grounds are in top order.
Cheers, Jon
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377857#377857
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet |
Jon,
Your comments are much appreciated. I fitted the large starter when I
installed the engine 6 years ago. The fact that your starts are now much
smoother gives me hope that the battery and/or cable connections may be the
cause. Your comments about uneven rotation speed during each revolution
corresponds with what the Scandinavian service agent told me. The springed
coupling in the gear box amplifies this if the rotation is not fast.
I am replacing the battery tomorrow, and search further if necessary, and
will report on this forum what I find.
//////////
Mark,
Thank you for the suggestion - I hope I find another cause than at the
magnets, so I do not have to work at the back of the engine .......
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
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| Subject: | Re: The Standard Warning Light |
Hi Bob and Ramie
Today i phoned about the only Rotax repair agent in the UK based at Banberry about
150 miles away called Conair i am told thare good and will sort the problem,
they charge a 1 per mile, and 40 per hour +Vat, its expensive, the positioning
puts the price up with parts it would be about 800 to 1000
But Today i have made progress ,set off despondently this morning,getting at the
Mags is a Pigs Ears of a job , having to remove the induction manifold to get
at the Mags Coil Units,
4 of them and they spark on the compression and the exhaust strokes .
Disassembled the Mags and swopped over the Coils, reconnected, fired up, and the
problem was now on the RIGHT key position, so now i have the little blighter
a faulty Ignition Coil that sparks the Two Front Cylinders,
Looks like the Part costs 350 including Postage Vat, So when it arrives it will
take me about 2 hours then all should be well.
By the way i have checked out those little lights , red/starter, red/Flydat, and
Red and amber which cycle for 2 secs to check the TCU, then one red i think
this is a spare.
To Reset the Flydat it has to go back to Rotax or it need a Rotax Service computer
at hand.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377915#377915
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| Subject: | Rotax 912ULS and VP prop required |
Dear all
Thanks for useful info about fuel smell and landing distance.
The next question relates to changing the Europa Classic engine from
Rotax 912UL to Rotax 912ULS. It is currently fitted with Warpdrive
ground adjustable 3 blade prop. Can the same prop be used with the
912ULS? Is there a noticable improvement in take-off and landing
performance with this combination. What about the Airmaster prop
conversion to VP using the existing blades?
I have placed a wanted ad on AFORS
William Bliss
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made |
Update chaps,
2nd prototype to hand now, who wants to see if it fits [ the Classic I had
to hand has gone from my Workshop] This one is final spec' material, good t
o go.
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: Neville Eyre <neveyre@aol.co.uk>
Sent: Wed, Mar 14, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: Europa-List: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made
Right, update;
I gave up on the three manufacturers I asked to bid on before, no wonder al
l the work is going to China !
Found someone [ a mate] to do the job, I need to know is how many are inter
ested in this first batch.
I intend to keep a bunch in stock later, as ALL Classic Europa's are going
to need one sooner or later, I have inspected 3 recently for Permit Renewal
, all getting close to being too far gone.
Europa are not going to get any more rubber hoses made.
The pipes will be from 6023 [ heat treated to T3 condition after bending in
the T 0 state] with rolled beads on each end. Tags on both ends to ground
[ earth] to filler cap and ground circuit.
Will be a ''new'' Mod with the LAA as we can't use Franks Mod if there is t
he SLIGHTEST deviation.Frank used 6063 T6 [ YES T6 !] How did he bend that
? So different material spec needs a new Mod ! ?
Will be a complete Kit with all connecting hoses, clips, wire etc.....
I will have a firm price in a week or so, best guess at the moment for the
pipe only is about =C2=A3115 / =C2=A3120, but that depends on the number ?
Looking at the cost of the other items at the moment.
Best to ship [ especially to overseas] in multiples, as they will be big [
odd shape] can't be folded up like the rubber ones were ! ? [ mind, I expec
t Maureen would have tried !]
So, who wants one in about 3 to 4 weeks ?
I have had a pipe made from gash steel to trial fit, [ got 3 Europa's to c
heck with, all slightly different !] if / when I get the go ahead from enou
gh of you I will be ready to do sets for real in the alloy.
Looks like a win / win situation going to alloy, wont get the stink through
the poor quality rubber, and it will be lighter. Also got a ''cunning plan
'' to aid faster filling, will report back on that later.
So Guys, show me your money !
Nev
-----Original Message-----
From: Neville Eyre <neveyre@aol.co.uk>
Sent: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:47
Subject: Re: Europa-List: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made
I started conversations with 3 potential manufactures a while back, confess
I have let it slip, will look back into it this week and report back.
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
Sent: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:33
Subject: Europa-List: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made
I am thinking of getting a batch of aluminum fuel filler pipes made for the
lassic to replace the rubber trunk. Frank Mycroft sent me a drawing and has
had
he mod approved ( it may be with Ian as well).
a) does anyone else want one making, they would be cheaper in a batch
) I can enquire locally but pointers as to where they could be made in the
UK
ould be helpful (50mm x 1.5 pipe)
Regards Graeme
--------
raeme Bird
-UMPY
ono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP
ust competed conversion to type
(at)gdbmk.co.uk
ead this topic online here:
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Message 10
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| Subject: | batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made |
Hi Nev
Have you got a picture of this pipe you could post? Also what it the
weight?
Thanks
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neville
Eyre
Sent: 10 July 2012 22:06
Subject: Re: Europa-List: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made
Update chaps,
2nd prototype to hand now, who wants to see if it fits [ the Classic I
had
to hand has gone from my Workshop] This one is final spec' material,
good to
go.
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: Neville Eyre <neveyre@aol.co.uk>
Sent: Wed, Mar 14, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: Europa-List: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made
Right, update;
I gave up on the three manufacturers I asked to bid on before, no wonder
all
the work is going to China !
Found someone [ a mate] to do the job, I need to know is how many are
interested in this first batch.
I intend to keep a bunch in stock later, as ALL Classic Europa's are
going
to need one sooner or later, I have inspected 3 recently for Permit
Renewal,
all getting close to being too far gone.
Europa are not going to get any more rubber hoses made.
The pipes will be from 6023 [ heat treated to T3 condition after bending
in
the T 0 state] with rolled beads on each end. Tags on both ends to
ground [
earth] to filler cap and ground circuit.
Will be a ''new'' Mod with the LAA as we can't use Franks Mod if there
is
the SLIGHTEST deviation.Frank used 6063 T6 [ YES T6 !] How did he bend
that
? So different material spec needs a new Mod ! ?
Will be a complete Kit with all connecting hoses, clips, wire etc.....
I will have a firm price in a week or so, best guess at the moment for
the
pipe only is about =A3115 / =A3120, but that depends on the number ?
Looking at
the cost of the other items at the moment.
Best to ship [ especially to overseas] in multiples, as they will be big
[
odd shape] can't be folded up like the rubber ones were ! ? [ mind, I
expect
Maureen would have tried !]
So, who wants one in about 3 to 4 weeks ?
I have had a pipe made from gash steel to trial fit, [ got 3 Europa's
to
check with, all slightly different !] if / when I get the go ahead from
enough of you I will be ready to do sets for real in the alloy.
Looks like a win / win situation going to alloy, wont get the stink
through
the poor quality rubber, and it will be lighter. Also got a ''cunning
plan''
to aid faster filling, will report back on that later.
So Guys, show me your money !
Nev
-----Original Message-----
From: Neville Eyre <neveyre@aol.co.uk>
Sent: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:47
Subject: Re: Europa-List: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made
I started conversations with 3 potential manufactures a while back,
confess
I have let it slip, will look back into it this week and report back.
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
Sent: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:33
Subject: Europa-List: batch of classic fuel filler pipes being made
I am thinking of getting a batch of aluminum fuel filler pipes made for
the
classic to replace the rubber trunk. Frank Mycroft sent me a drawing and
has
had
the mod approved ( it may be with Ian as well).
a) does anyone else want one making, they would be cheaper in a batch
b) I can enquire locally but pointers as to where they could be made in
the
UK
would be helpful (50mm x 1.5 pipe)
Regards Graeme
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP
Just competed conversion to type
G(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
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arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
p://forums.matronics.com
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Thin Stainless Steel |
Paul,
Aircraft Spruce carries it.
PER FT FIREWALL 2000 24" WIDTH 05-00948
They also have the kit with the gray fireproof adhesive. Great stuff,
easy to install but pricey. I cut a cardboard template then make my
piece 1/2 inch larger. Cut the aluminum and fiber back the 1/2 inch
from the edge and fold over the SS to make a nice clean rolled edge.
Then install. Once finished curing, I cut .016 stainless to cover the
ends and cover both the face and around the corner... Neat, sealed and
trouble free.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul McAllister<mailto:paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thin Stainless Steel
Hi Bud,
Can you tell me where I can purchase the SS/Fiberfax material ?
Thanks, Paul
On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Bud Yerly
<budyerly@msn.com<mailto:budyerly@msn.com>> wrote:
Paul,
For all the Europa needs here in the US, Aircraft Spruce carries
what is necessary.
Firewall:
For the Trigear or mono I use the .016 thickness stainless steel and
a Whitney punch to make the holes. At .016 it can be drilled but is
hard on the bits.
For the firewall in Trigear which goes behind the gear frame, I do
not use hard stainless sheet, I use the firewall 2000 kit. This is a
sandwich material of real stainless foil, firberfax (insulation and
fireproof material to replace asbestos) and on the other side a thin
aluminum foil. The gray sealant and adhesive works great.
Do not use aluminum foil insulation material sold in home
improvement stores as from experience it bursts into flame on direct
contact with fire. It burns really well after the flame is removed.
Plate Damage to a wing or fuselage hardpoint; 1/8 inch 6061 T-6 is
fine. It's a bit harder to drill than 2024. But it doesn't corrode.
Wing Brackets; if I have to custom make a set I use again the 1/8
inch 6061T-6.
Regards,
Bud
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: The Standard Warning Light |
Alan,
Unfortunately, there always seems to be something in the way of whatever it is
you want to check or change.
Yes, the Rotax uses a "wasted spark" ignition. Plugs are fired every 180 when
two pistons are approaching TDC, one on compression & one on exhaust. Makes for
a much simpler system.
Looks like you have the problem in hand. Good work! You'll get the Flydat reset
and you'll be good to go.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jul 10, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Alan Carter wrote:
Hi Bob and Ramie
Today i phoned about the only Rotax repair agent in the UK based at Banberry about
150 miles away called Conair i am told thare good and will sort the problem,
they charge a 1 per mile, and 40 per hour +Vat, its expensive, the positioning
puts the price up with parts it would be about 800 to 1000
But Today i have made progress ,set off despondently this morning,getting at the
Mags is a Pigs Ears of a job , having to remove the induction manifold to get
at the Mags Coil Units,
4 of them and they spark on the compression and the exhaust strokes .
Disassembled the Mags and swopped over the Coils, reconnected, fired up, and the
problem was now on the RIGHT key position, so now i have the little blighter
a faulty Ignition Coil that sparks the Two Front Cylinders,
Looks like the Part costs 350 including Postage Vat, So when it arrives it will
take me about 2 hours then all should be well.
By the way i have checked out those little lights , red/starter, red/Flydat, and
Red and amber which cycle for 2 secs to check the TCU, then one red i think
this is a spare.
To Reset the Flydat it has to go back to Rotax or it need a Rotax Service computer
at hand.
Alan
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912ULS and VP prop required |
William,
I can't comment directly on the 912ULS, but my 914 is a noticeably better performer
with the Airmaster C/S prop. I installed a ground adjustable Warp Drive
prop for a couple flights. It worked well enough but not like the Airmaster.
It was set up for takeoff performance (maybe a bit under-pitched even). Acceleration,
takeoff distance and initial climb were comparable to the Airmaster.
But cruise speed was only about 115-120 kts. The Airmaster would get me about
140 kts cruise. With the G/A prop you get either good takeoff performance
and loose speed and economy or good speed and economy with less takeoff performance.
Or you can go compromise. But you can't get the best takeoff AND cruise
performance as you can with a C/S prop. But the C/S prop is heavier, more
complex and a lot more expensive. So, you pays your money and takes your chances.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jul 10, 2012, at 3:59 PM, William Bliss wrote:
Dear all
Thanks for useful info about fuel smell and landing distance.
The next question relates to changing the Europa Classic engine from Rotax 912UL
to Rotax 912ULS. It is currently fitted with Warpdrive ground adjustable 3 blade
prop. Can the same prop be used with the 912ULS? Is there a noticable improvement
in take-off and landing performance with this combination. What about
the Airmaster prop conversion to VP using the existing blades?
I have placed a wanted ad on AFORS
William Bliss
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet |
Karl,
Rotax Heavy Maintenance Manual, Section 74, 3) Maintenance/Troubleshooting
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jul 10, 2012, at 6:45 AM, Karl Heindl wrote:
Hi Mark,
Sometimes I had the same problem, as if the engine is running on one cylinder.
Where exactly is this ignition pickup point and what should the gap be ?
Cheers,
Karl
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: 912ULS - Rough start & Rough on one magnet
> From: markb@ordern.com
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 03:51:14 -0700
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Hi Svein,
>
> How about checking the ignition pickup gaps. Perhaps, they are wide enough to
make the ignition unreliable at very low RPM (i.e. when starting).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
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