---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/23/12: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:41 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Weight_of_HPL_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?3_blade_warp_drive_prop_for_ref? (Carl Pattinson) 2. 12:44 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Weight_of_HPL_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?3_blade_warp_drive_prop_for_ref? (Carl Pattinson) 3. 12:49 AM - Re: Re: Weight of HPL 3 blade warp drive prop for ref (David Joyce) 4. 12:18 PM - Re: Cockpit cover - Any colour as long as it's white (Rob Housman) 5. 01:16 PM - SV: Cockpit cover - Any colour as long as it's white (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 6. 05:12 PM - Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (Alan Carter) 7. 06:10 PM - Re: N120ej trails and tribulations (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 8. 06:46 PM - footage recovered (Fred Klein) 9. 10:21 PM - Re: footage recovered (Nic) 10. 11:46 PM - Re: N120ej trails and tribulations (Carl Meek) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:22 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Weight_of_HPL_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?3_blade_warp_drive_prop_for_ref? X-mailer: iolo System Shield 10.7.6.60 Hi, I think David Joyce has pretty well answered your question. If David cant find his instructions for setting the micro-switches I also have a set somewhere. Setting the max static RPM is fairly straightforward ( make sure you tie the plane down well !). You will also need to make sure that you can get a positive climb rate of about 300 fpm in fully coarse pitch - this took some doing in our case - with the 80hp engine that's nigh on impossible but should be easily achievable with the 100 hp engine. That's with the flaps (and in our case gear) down. Retracted it climbs fine. The point behind this is that should the motor fail in coarse pitch you should be able to climb to a safe height in a "go around" situation. I guess that with a Tri Gear if the electrical power failed and the prop was stuck in coarse with the flaps down you would have to be able to climb in this situation. With a mono its relatively easy to raise the gear (as its manual). Regards Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird Sent: 22 July 2012 09:41 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight of HPL 3 blade warp drive prop for ref Well I have fitted to Woodcomp 3000/3W and done a couple of short initial test flights. The LAA test schedule seems to imply that I might need to adjust the microswitch positions but the Woodcomp manual says this should only be done at the factory. Did anyone find it necessary to adjust them and if so did they do it themselves of get Kevin involved? I guess I am asking Carl and David. So far the take off seems much more rapid, but then it seemed to stop accelerating at just above 60kts and I have to go to climb and put the gear up. The top end doesnt seem that much faster but then I may not have been applying full power. Not sure whether to display pressure or HP on the controller. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378909#378909 _______________________________________ No infections found in this incoming message Scanned by iolo System ShieldR http://www.iolo.com _______________________________________ No infections found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo System Shield http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:45 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Weight_of_HPL_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?3_blade_warp_drive_prop_for_ref? X-mailer: iolo System Shield 10.7.6.60 PS: the normal setting for the manifold pressure gauge is PRESSURE - not sure why but once you get used to working with this its fine. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird Sent: 22 July 2012 09:41 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight of HPL 3 blade warp drive prop for ref Well I have fitted to Woodcomp 3000/3W and done a couple of short initial test flights. The LAA test schedule seems to imply that I might need to adjust the microswitch positions but the Woodcomp manual says this should only be done at the factory. Did anyone find it necessary to adjust them and if so did they do it themselves of get Kevin involved? I guess I am asking Carl and David. So far the take off seems much more rapid, but then it seemed to stop accelerating at just above 60kts and I have to go to climb and put the gear up. The top end doesnt seem that much faster but then I may not have been applying full power. Not sure whether to display pressure or HP on the controller. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378909#378909 _______________________________________ No infections found in this incoming message Scanned by iolo System ShieldR http://www.iolo.com _______________________________________ No infections found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo System Shield http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:38 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Weight of HPL 3 blade warp drive prop for ref Graeme, I would suggest asking Jiri at Woodcomp or Kevin Dilks at Special Aviation Services for instructions, just in case the arrangement of the rings (which you need to adjust) has changed in relation to the numbered blades in later versions of the propeller. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:20 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cockpit cover - Any colour as long as it's white Please don't take offence, all I want to do is clarify the science involved Your reply convinces me that you do not understand any of the mechanisms of heat transfer applicable to keeping the cockpit relatively cool when the airplane is left in the sun. That is forgivable for folks that are not educated in the science of heat transfer, but what is unforgivable is the manufacture's mistaken belief that UV has something to do with heat, and that conduction is a significant contributor to increasing the temperature in the cockpit. UV is at the opposite end of the electromagnetic spectrum from infrared, and while all of the spectrum contributes something to heating the further we get from infrared the less the contribution. Briefly, there are three means of heat transfer, radiant, conductive, and convective. Radiant heat transfer predominates when the temperature of the source, in this case the sun, is very high. This is because the radiant energy is proportional to the absolute temperature (Kelvin or Rankine scale) raised to the fourth power. We experience radiant heat transfer from everyday things like the heating elements on an electric range, from a flame, or even a tungsten light bulb, all of which are sources at relatively high temperatures. Conductive heat transfer predominates in solid materials such as the cockpit covers in question, and at lower temperatures. Conduction is what makes the handle of a pot on the stove get hot after the pot is heated by radiation from the burner and heat is transferred (conducted) through the aluminum, cast iron, or copper pot, to the handle Convection, either natural or forced, transfers heat by moving a fluid (either a gas or liquid) from a higher temperature location to a lower temperature location. We use this method to cool both liquid and air cooled engines. So, getting back to my original point: The best way to keep the cockpit cool is with a material that reflects the sun's radiant energy. A layer of aluminum foil will do this quite well. Gold foil will be better still but a bit more expensive (check out the amount of gold you see in pictures of satellites). Since the interior surface of the cover in question is a few degrees warmer than ambient, and nowhere near the temperature of a light bulb for example, there is virtually no radiation from the interior of the cover to the cockpit, hence my assertion that the measurements you made are meaningless. If anything, the cover with the highest interior temperature might actually help reduce the temperature in the cockpit because it is a demonstrably poor insulator which means that once the cockpit is hotter than the ambient air the heat can be transferred by conduction to the surface of the windows and from there convection will remove heat to the air. Further comments below. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics soon From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:44 AM Subject: SV: Europa-List: Cockpit cover - Any colour as long as it's white Rob, With respect, I wish to comment some of your statements: >What these measurements do not tell us is how much of the sun's energy is reflected from the outer surface of the cockpit covers, only what heat is transferred by conduction through the cover.< What is of interest is not what is reflected (per se), but what is transferred by conduction. No - see above. The temperature on the underside (shadow side) of the material was measured, and this gives indeed a good indication of the heat transferred - the higher the temperature, the more heat is transferred. True as far as it goes. Whether the heat that reaches the underside is a result of low reflection from the outside surface or high conductivity (low insulation) in the material is irrelevant. Sort of true but it is indeed heated by conduction through the cover as a result of minimal reflection. >The metallic grey material is probably a very good reflector of radiant energy in the part of the spectrum most important for reducing the temperature within the cockpit.< If this is the case, the material must have a very high conductivity/low insulation, since it gets really warm on the underside, meaning that the energy not reflected passes easily through the material. The cover manufacturer stated the following in an e-mail to me yesterday: "These covers will reflect UV radiation, but this is not the only way that heat is tranferred. Conduction is likely to be a major factor. No - see above We have not designed a product to protect and insulate from the heat of the sun (insulation would surely be needed outside the glass)." Did they really mean that the cover is useless for keeping the cockpit cool? Again they demonstrate their ignorance by recommending insulation outside of the glass (sic) because the polycarbonate-cover "system" would work the same whether the insulation is outside or inside. >It is erroneous to conclude that "the metallic-grey material is totally unsuitable for sun heat protection" because cockpit air temperature is not a function of the temperature of the heat shield, and cockpit air temperature was not measured. At the temperatures involved, radiant heat transfer is inconsequential so therefore the measured temperature on the interior side of the cover material is insignificant and irrelevant< How can cockpit air temperature NOT be a function of the temperature on the inside of the cover? See above. Consider the following - case 1: The entire aircraft is covered, and the temperature on the inside of the total cover is 58.7 degr. C - constant over time. When the cockpit air temp has stabilized, it will be 58.7 degr C. Case 2: The inside of the total cover is 38.7 degr C. When the cockpit air temp has stabilized, it will be 38.7 degr C. In the real case, where parts of the structure surrounding the cockpit are not covered, the inside air temperature will be different from the temperature on the inside of the cover. However, the higher the cover inside temperature is, the higher the cockpit temperature gets. Further, the structure (e.g. fuselage skin) is in direct contact with the underside of the cover, and I can assure you that the white skin under the cover was significantly hotter than the white skin exposed to the sun, which felt cool in comparison. Perhaps I should not have said "insignificant" in my original message. That temperature would be a significant indicator of cockpit temperature when at equilibrium but your report of the original measurements did not indicate that equilibrium had been attained. The white skin under the cover is an indication of the temperature of the cover after the cockpit has already been heated by radiation, and the cover's interior heated by conduction, and the white skin of the aircraft is cooler because it has efficiently reflected the radiant energy of the sun. >Now, having said that the conclusion was erroneous I should point out that the cover in question may indeed be a rather poor means of reducing the cockpit temperature. We simply do not know from the available information. As with academic studies, here we must conclude that further research is necessary. < Ref. the above quote from the manufacturer with respect to the cover not being suitable for heat reduction. I've already pointed out that the manufacturer is simply ignorant of heat transfer mechanisms. There is, however, another manufacturer who claims to have better suited material (ref. Gerry's posting on Monday). I have asked for a sample of that material, and will make a comparison of the underside temp of that and the metallic grey that I presently have. The best practical heat protection of the cockpit is to cover the windows on the inside by auto heat shield (the foam layer offers effective insulation low conductivity). See my comments above about the relative contribution by conduction. The problem arises when you also need to cover the cockpit and engine top (ref. air intake location for 912 UL/ 912 ULS) against rain. If the white cover shows lower temperature on the underside than the metallic-grey cover, this is either due to different radiant heat reflection definitely or different conductivity through the fabric minor contribution , or a combination of both. How much is actually caused by one or the other is beyond the scope of my interest in this subject - I only wish to find a lightweight, water tight cover that is noticeably better than the metallic-grey that I now have. White colour is in all likelihood better than metallic grey. Definitely, and something metallic is better still. Reflectivity in the infrared is a function of the material alone, specular or diffuse. Aluminum is better for reflectivity than painted anything, but I don't want a corroding airplane. On a sunny day, check on cars in a parking lot: White is definitely coolest to the touch (most heat reflection = least soaking up of heat into the car body metal). Correct Yellow, green, grey, red, blue: Much hotter. Correct again. Silver metallic: Almost as bad as any of the darker colours. Reason according to paint manufacturer: The special "sheen" of metallic paint is created by particles reflecting light in different, arbitrary directions - also down towards the surface on which it is painted. We don't care where the reflected energy goes as long as it leaves the surface we want to keep cool, and since the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence there is no way for the energy to be reflected below the surface. This is why our aircraft made of epoxy must not be painted silver metallic, while aircraft (and cars) made of polyester may have this type of paint but that's because of the glass transition temperature, and entirely different concern. I am not saying that the "metallic" grey cover has the same properties as silver metallic paint, but grey is still not white. Yup, any color as long as it's white. Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:07 PM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: Cockpit cover - Any colour as long as it's white Rob, I do indeed take offence. End of discussion. Svein ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:50 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. From: "Alan Carter" Hello All. I am new to flying a Europa and don,t know what to look for in picking up damage from a Heavy Landing, I have seen some quite hard landing by some Europa,s. So besides the obvious, Undercarriage missing, or all shattered where the main gear enters the fuselage, Is there any small tell tell features that will identify a heavy landing on the Tri Gears main gear. Also if you find one of these features how do you check it out , that it is, or is not due to a heavy landing. Many thanks Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379029#379029 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:57 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: N120ej trails and tribulations Fred- I opened an album and put a few pictures of what I have done for cooling on the Europaowners web site.=C2- You need to go to page 4 on the site to f ind my album.=C2- The sit is not terribly inuitive but easy to use once y ou get used to it. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:53:32 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: N120ej trails and tribulations On Jul 16, 2012, at 3:08 PM, jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: My pictures are 5 GB each, so e-mailing them does not work well.=C2- Any thoughts? Jim, On my combuter (iMacbook) when I want to email a photo, I get a sizing prom pt which allows a selection of smaller resolutions to pick from rather than to send the photo in its full size resolution...I thought this was a featu re common to all laptops...?.... ============ == ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:16 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: footage recovered long lost video of lunar landing recovered... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW6DuPQzyBU&feature=player_embedded do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:00 PM PST US From: "Nic" Subject: Re: Europa-List: footage recovered Un ****ing believable!!! Nic a-145xs ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:46 PM PST US From: Carl Meek Subject: Re: Europa-List: N120ej trails and tribulations These are nice clear photos. How successful are you so far? I'm doing exactl y the Same cooling project on my Europa. Yesterday we installed baffles in the plenums (which were previously just pl ain). I also have a new bottom lip on the cowl, like yours but a little bigger I also have a tight plenum around the oil cooler. Before the plenum baffles, cylinder 3 was hottest. Now cylinder 6 is hottest... I think we need to reduce that baffle a bit. After climbing on full power at 85kts I had to level out at 750 feet to cool down, OAT was 25. Cylinder 6 kit 170. Hottest other cylinder was 159. Obviously once we even them out a bit, and 6 stops being quite so problemati c, it will be much better... But I'm interested to know what sort of max tem ps after climb I should be looking for. I'm running out of ideas on what to do next! Any suggestions? Regards Carl. Sent from my iPad On 24 Jul 2012, at 02:10, jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: > Fred- > > I opened an album and put a few pictures of what I have done for cooling o n the Europaowners web site. You need to go to page 4 on the site to find m y album. The sit is not terribly inuitive but easy to use once you get used to it. > > Jim > > > From: "Fred Klein" > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:53:32 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: N120ej trails and tribulations > > > > On Jul 16, 2012, at 3:08 PM, jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: > > My pictures are 5 GB each, so e-mailing them does not work well. Any thou ghts? > > Jim, > > On my combuter (iMacbook) when I want to email a photo, I get a sizing pro mpt which allows a selection of smaller resolutions to pick from rather than to send the photo in its full size resolution...I thought this was a featur e common to all laptops...?.... > > Fred > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.