Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 07/30/12


Total Messages Posted: 30



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:05 AM - Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman)
     2. 03:10 AM - Re: Jabiru Cowlings (Richard Collings)
     3. 03:42 AM - SV: Jabiru Cowlings (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
     4. 04:38 AM - Mylar seals and stall speed? (Frans Veldman)
     5. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Gear down and locked switch (Paul McAllister)
     6. 06:22 AM - Re: Gear down and locked switch (Paul McAllister)
     7. 06:41 AM - Europa Group Shares (Carl Pattinson)
     8. 06:47 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Jeff B)
     9. 07:00 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Pete Lawless)
    10. 07:07 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Fred Klein)
    11. 07:12 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman)
    12. 07:36 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Frans Veldman)
    13. 08:50 AM - Vortex generators on rudder (glenn crowder)
    14. 10:43 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Pete Lawless)
    15. 11:03 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Fred Klein)
    16. 11:20 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Frans Veldman)
    17. 11:32 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
    18. 11:46 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Karl Heindl)
    19. 12:26 PM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Pete Lawless)
    20. 12:45 PM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Frans Veldman)
    21. 01:58 PM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Karl Heindl)
    22. 02:56 PM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Pete Lawless)
    23. 03:05 PM - Re: Possible New Build (G-IANI)
    24. 03:05 PM - which one to cut out? (fireflier)
    25. 03:34 PM - Re: which one to cut out? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
    26. 03:54 PM - Re: which one to cut out? (Robert Borger)
    27. 05:17 PM - Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (Alan Carter)
    28. 05:21 PM - Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (Alan Carter)
    29. 09:25 PM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Bill Sisley)
    30. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (DAVID JOYCE)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:05:43 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Vapour lock? Why?
    Hi everyone, Just returned from a trip to the French Alps. I have had some worrying experience, so I hope to gain some wisdom from the group. What happened is that during the take off roll from a 4000ft altitude field on a hot day, the engine hesistated and didn't develop full power. As it was a rather short runway in a valley with absolutely no suitable fields in the proximity for an emergency landing I aborted the take off (and was happy it happened early in the take off roll). Associated with the drop of power I saw the fuel pressure drop (note a recent discussion where I discussed the importance to have a conventional fuel pressure gauge at the top of the panel, as an unusual swing of a needle surely catches your attention). A quick check of the fuel system didn't indicate any abnormalities. Idle and medium power was ok, but at full power the fuel pressure dropped everytime. My conclusion was that it had to be vapour lock in some way, so I decided to try another day in the morning. Indeed the problem appeared to have solved itself and ground runs gave enough confidence to attempt a take off. The engine developed full power as it usually does and the 4.5 hour flight home was just like normal. I don't fully understand how this could happen however. I have taken off in hotter weather. My assumption so far is that it happened because of the combination of altitude and temperature, and the fact that I refueled the airplane in the morning while the take off was in the afternoon and the fuel had plenty of time to heat up while the airplane was parked in the sun. Another difference was that the floor of the bagage bay was now covered with a black piece of carpet instead of the white carpet I normally have. A few questions here: 1) Is there any difference it the type of fuel (AVGAS, MOGAS) regarding to the sensitivity to vapour lock? 2) Is there anything that can be done about it? (I assume that it must have occured at the fuel pump inlet, under the bagage bay). 3) My habit is to switch on the second fuel pump while lining up. Maybe it is better to switch on the second fuel pump earlier? (This second fuel pump is also used for starting the engine, so it had already run. After startup I switch fuel pumps, so before lining up both pumps have already ran and found to be ok, and should have been "cooled" by the fuel). 4) Will a cockpit cover help? (Maybe the answer is obvious, but I'm hoping to hear from someone that the very same problem was cured by using a cockpit cover). 5) Is my conclusion and assumption about the vapour lock correct, or do I need to investigate further? Thanks, Frans


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:10:38 AM PST US
    From: "Richard Collings" <rcollings@talktalk.net>
    Subject: Re: Jabiru Cowlings
    Hi I have just spent a happy couple of hours with Nev Eyre's helping get water out of a Europa wing at Turweston! The Europa was a Classic with Nevs redesigned engine mount and more to the point a very nice engine cowl. Speak to him good luck . Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Groups" <groups@thegoddards.com> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiru Cowlings > > Gerry, > > I wonder if jabiru Europa cowls would fit my ULPowered Europa as I have > hit a wall with the project, all else is finished just stuck on cowls. > > Vince > G-BWUP UL260iS > ULPowered Tailwheel Europa > > On 28 Jul 2012, at 11:01, William McClellan <wilwood@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> <wilwood@earthlink.net> >> >> Gerry, >> Jabiru should have cowling and FWF for the 3300 Europa. At least they >> said they did when I questioned them about the cooling ducting I got from >> them many years ago. >> Bill >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk> >>> Sent: Jul 27, 2012 9:33 AM >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Europa-List: Jabiru Cowlings >>> >>> <gholland@content-stream.co.uk> >>> >>> Hi. >>> Anyone have or know of a set of Jabiru 3300 Engine cowlings? >>> New or used. Send me a PM if you can help. Many Thanks. >>> Regards >>> Gerry >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 03:42:38 AM PST US
    From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
    Subject: Jabiru Cowlings
    Hi Richard, > Hi I have just spent a happy couple of hours with Nev Eyre's helping get > water out of a Europa wing at Turweston! Any idea as to where the water entered the wing (I assume it was rain water)? Regards, Svein LN-SKJ


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:38:01 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Recently I have put mylar seals on all the controls. I thought that if it is good on gliders it would also be good on my Europa, and it also enhances the look of my Europa, concealing the gaps and hinges (and hiding some imperfections at the same time). I vould not really find an increase in performance, or maybe it was too small to measure in the rather unstable turbulent summer conditions. Thinking back about my recent trip to the Alps, I suddenly recognized that all my landings had an excessive flare. All of them. I also remembered that on take off the airplane started flying while my Talking Airspeed Indicator was still reporting speeds in the 30's. Obviously I need to investigate my stall speeds, but I didn't think about it during my last trip, not having realised that the mylar seals could affect the stall speed of the airplane in some way. I just contributed extended flares to sudden winds or thermals. Only when I was back home I recognized the pattern. Important here is that I also applied the mylar seals on the top of the gap between the flaps and the wing. The idea here was to smoothen the transition between the flaps and the wing and to prevent air from seeping through when the flaps are retracted. When the flaps are deployed the seals are just extending the wing 1.5cm (about 1/2 inch) and I didn't think that this could affect the effectivety of the flaps in some way. So, my question is: Is it possible al all that mylar seals over the flap gap are able to significantly reduce the stall speed? Or should I look for some other reason? I can make a picture to show how it looks like. Frans


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:18:02 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gear down and locked switch
    From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
    Thanks Richard, I am sure that you have heard the expression that there are pilots who have landed gear up and then there are those who will :) A very experienced corporate pilot who rented space in my hanger recently landed his Comanche with the gear up, so I think it's just an accident waiting to happen. I am planning to install Mark Burton's SmartASS so I thought I might as well use the gear warning feature. In terms of human-machine interface I understand that this is as good as it gets for transferring critical information. You never know, it might help me one day. Cheers, Paul On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard@gmail.com>wrote: > lamprey.richard@gmail.com> > > Paul, I have a gear locked microswitch mounted on the inner port side of > the wheel well. It is engaged by a small flat plate fixed to the side of > the LGO8P arm, such that when the arm has actually moved overcentre (ie is > locked), the switch engages, and a green light illuminates on the panel. > > I thought about putting it in the gear-locked gate, but this only tell you > that the lever is in the gate, and not that the gear is locked down (which > are two different things, especially if you have any movement in those 3 > bolts attaching the gear lever to LG08S caused by eg turbulence). > > None of this stopped my from landing gear-up, when I had moved the landing > gear right down, but not engaged in the gate.... no green light...my head > was seriously in the wrong place that day... . > Best > Richard > Kenya Classic 5Y-LRY > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379464#379464 > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:22:39 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gear down and locked switch
    From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
    Thanks David, I might end up sensing both the latch and the over center lock, then its covered from both aspects. I like the idea of an audio warning, as I understand it, in terms of human-machine interface it's about as good as it gets. My hanger partner who is a very experienced corporate pilot landed his Comanche with the gear up a couple of weeks ago, so it can happen to any of us. Cheers, PAul On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 3:47 PM, David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>wrote: > davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> > > > Paul, If you ask Mark Burton nicely he will either supply you with an > appropriate water proof switch, or tell you where to order one from. I > fitted mine so that the lever arm actuating the switch sticks out into the > 'down' detent. There are two holes in the micro switch and I have put two > small screws through those holes into the fibreglass just behind the alloy > surround of the gear lever, and also Aralditing the side of the switch to > the fibreglass. I also put a dollop of silicone sealant covering the end of > he switch where the wires emerge to help the switch's own waterproofing, as > it is in the spray line if the runway is wet. > Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ >


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:41:31 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Europa Group Shares
    Hi, Not sure if anybody is looking to get some time in an a Europa Classic Mono. Might be of interest to a builder who is local to me and wanting to st ay current and/ or convert. I am offering a couple of NOMINAL shares in the aircraft. Aircraft is located at Bicester on Oxfordshire. Always hangared and th ere are no airfield restrictions ' can be used 24/7 subject to fitting i n with the gliding operations there. Running costs =A3125 per month plus fuel. If anyone is interested please give me a call or email. Tel: 01296 738129 Tel: 07768 473222 _____________________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of f.kyle@sympatico.ca Sent: 28 July 2012 21:07 Subject: Europa-List: panic attack - phase two -914 Many thanks to Bob Borger for his quick response... I finally found my errant instructions to re-connect the Manifold Pressure to the Dynon EMS D-10A instrument harness. It was on page 3- 5 of the Installation Manual and =91splains everything. I apologise for having typed before engaging brain gear. All is now in order - relatively. Ferg XS, foam wings, CS prop _______________________________________ No infections found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo System Shield=AE http://www.iolo.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:47:15 AM PST US
    From: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Vapour lock? Why?
    Frans, My own experience with vapor lock was nerve wracking. After fighting it for months, I finally figured it out. The carb bowls were getting hot. Check your exhaust for a good seal and build a baffle to fit behind and inside on the rear exhaust down tubes. These will deflect the hot air away from the carbs. I also fire sleeved all exposed fuel lines, under the cowl. Worked for me. Zero problems since. Jeff - Baby Blue On 7/30/2012 5:58 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Just returned from a trip to the French Alps. > > I have had some worrying experience, so I hope to gain some wisdom from > the group. > > What happened is that during the take off roll from a 4000ft altitude > field on a hot day, the engine hesistated and didn't develop full power. > As it was a rather short runway in a valley with absolutely no suitable > fields in the proximity for an emergency landing I aborted the take off > (and was happy it happened early in the take off roll). > > Associated with the drop of power I saw the fuel pressure drop (note a > recent discussion where I discussed the importance to have a > conventional fuel pressure gauge at the top of the panel, as an unusual > swing of a needle surely catches your attention). A quick check of the > fuel system didn't indicate any abnormalities. Idle and medium power was > ok, but at full power the fuel pressure dropped everytime. My conclusion > was that it had to be vapour lock in some way, so I decided to try > another day in the morning. Indeed the problem appeared to have solved > itself and ground runs gave enough confidence to attempt a take off. The > engine developed full power as it usually does and the 4.5 hour flight > home was just like normal. > > I don't fully understand how this could happen however. I have taken off > in hotter weather. > > My assumption so far is that it happened because of the combination of > altitude and temperature, and the fact that I refueled the airplane in > the morning while the take off was in the afternoon and the fuel had > plenty of time to heat up while the airplane was parked in the sun. > Another difference was that the floor of the bagage bay was now covered > with a black piece of carpet instead of the white carpet I normally have. > > A few questions here: > 1) Is there any difference it the type of fuel (AVGAS, MOGAS) regarding > to the sensitivity to vapour lock? > 2) Is there anything that can be done about it? (I assume that it must > have occured at the fuel pump inlet, under the bagage bay). > 3) My habit is to switch on the second fuel pump while lining up. Maybe > it is better to switch on the second fuel pump earlier? (This second > fuel pump is also used for starting the engine, so it had already run. > After startup I switch fuel pumps, so before lining up both pumps have > already ran and found to be ok, and should have been "cooled" by the fuel). > 4) Will a cockpit cover help? (Maybe the answer is obvious, but I'm > hoping to hear from someone that the very same problem was cured by > using a cockpit cover). > 5) Is my conclusion and assumption about the vapour lock correct, or do > I need to investigate further? > > Thanks, > Frans > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:00:24 AM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Hi Frans I have had the Mylar gap seals since new in 2003. Mine were fitted to the flap gap, as well as the ailerons and rudder, but my inspector was not happy and checked with the PFA/LAA. They were not happy either about possible effects on the stall speed and the seals were removed from the flap gap before the first flight. Regards Pete G-RMAC -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 30 July 2012 13:31 Subject: Europa-List: Mylar seals and stall speed? Recently I have put mylar seals on all the controls. I thought that if it is good on gliders it would also be good on my Europa, and it also enhances the look of my Europa, concealing the gaps and hinges (and hiding some imperfections at the same time). I vould not really find an increase in performance, or maybe it was too small to measure in the rather unstable turbulent summer conditions. Thinking back about my recent trip to the Alps, I suddenly recognized that all my landings had an excessive flare. All of them. I also remembered that on take off the airplane started flying while my Talking Airspeed Indicator was still reporting speeds in the 30's. Obviously I need to investigate my stall speeds, but I didn't think about it during my last trip, not having realised that the mylar seals could affect the stall speed of the airplane in some way. I just contributed extended flares to sudden winds or thermals. Only when I was back home I recognized the pattern. Important here is that I also applied the mylar seals on the top of the gap between the flaps and the wing. The idea here was to smoothen the transition between the flaps and the wing and to prevent air from seeping through when the flaps are retracted. When the flaps are deployed the seals are just extending the wing 1.5cm (about 1/2 inch) and I didn't think that this could affect the effectivety of the flaps in some way. So, my question is: Is it possible al all that mylar seals over the flap gap are able to significantly reduce the stall speed? Or should I look for some other reason? I can make a picture to show how it looks like. Frans -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:07:45 AM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    On Jul 30, 2012, at 5:30 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Recently I have put mylar seals on all the controls. I thought that if > it is good on gliders it would also be good on my Europa, and it also > enhances the look of my Europa, concealing the gaps and hinges (and > hiding some imperfections at the same time). Frans, I have forwarded your post to John Lawton who no longer monitors europa-list but has direct Europa and motorglider experience w/ seals. Fred


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:12:27 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Vapour lock? Why?
    Jeff, > My own experience with vapor lock was nerve wracking. After fighting it > for months, I finally figured it out. The carb bowls were getting hot. This is not the problem I have. The engine was still relatively cold, and I saw the fuel pressure drop. The fuel pressure is measured before the carbs. A vapor lock inside the carbs doesn't result in a pressure drop before the carbs. I also got some private mails, but not everyone seems to know that I have a Rotax 914. The 914 has two electrical pumps, mounted under the bagage bay. If there is a fuel pressure drop, something is wrong outside of the engine bay (unless it is the fuel pressure regulator itself). I appreciate your advice, but I don't think it applies to my ship. It can't have been the carbs. Frans


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:36:21 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Hi Pete, > I have had the Mylar gap seals since new in 2003. Mine were fitted to the > flap gap, as well as the ailerons and rudder, but my inspector was not happy > and checked with the PFA/LAA. They were not happy either about possible > effects on the stall speed and the seals were removed from the flap gap > before the first flight. I can imagine someone fearing that the stall speed increases... but here the stall speed decreases. Is that a bad thing, to lower the stall speed? Isn't that the holy grail of wing design, to lower the stall speed without hurting the cruise and top end performance? I can imagine that with heavy cross wind the airplane keeps flaring beyond the point where the rudder can keep the plane straight. This might be more of a problem for the mono than for the tri-gear. For the tri gear one can opt to land with the flaps up or partially deployed if a higher stall speed is desired. At the next occasion I will do some checks to see if indeed the stall speed has been affected by these seals. I didn't know that a STOL-kit was so easy to make for an Europa. :-) Oh, and I just assumed that with seals on the flap gap you mean seals on the upperside of the wing. Not on the huge gap on the lowerside of the wing, right? In the latter case, I can see how that could increase the stall speed as you effectively change the fowler flaps into non-fowler flaps. I didn't apply seals on the lowerside of the wing for exactly this reason. Do you still have the seals on the rudder? I only did the starboard side, because at the port side the gap opens up quite a bit with full right rudder, and the seals might be sucked inside the gap and block the rudder. I would like to hear if someone indeed tried seals on the port side of the rudder. I have quite a nasty transition there as the rudder is less wide than the rear of the fuselage. I would love to smooth out this transition but I'm not going to be the one who finds out whether this is a good idea or not. ;-) Frans


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:50:12 AM PST US
    From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Vortex generators on rudder
    I have been donated a vortex generator kit and was interested in trying the m on the rudder. I have never run out of rudder authority on take off or landing but more is always better in this area. Has anyone ever tried vortex generators on the rudder to improve effectiven ess? I will be doing it soon!


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:43:31 AM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Evening Frans My seals are all on the top surface and the hinge line of the rudder. I agree with you about the effect on the stall speed but was not prepared to argue the case - at the time I just wanted to get the aeroplane flying. They did not actually say no just that we would have to do a lot of flight testing. I will be most interested to hear the results of your stall speed tests. I would have expected hot and high to have had an opposite effect on performance. My rudder is also a poor fit at the bottom, the fuselage is too wide, how ever it is probably in turbulent air off the prop. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 30 July 2012 16:29 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar seals and stall speed? Hi Pete, > I have had the Mylar gap seals since new in 2003. Mine were fitted to the > flap gap, as well as the ailerons and rudder, but my inspector was not happy > and checked with the PFA/LAA. They were not happy either about possible > effects on the stall speed and the seals were removed from the flap gap > before the first flight. I can imagine someone fearing that the stall speed increases... but here the stall speed decreases. Is that a bad thing, to lower the stall speed? Isn't that the holy grail of wing design, to lower the stall speed without hurting the cruise and top end performance? I can imagine that with heavy cross wind the airplane keeps flaring beyond the point where the rudder can keep the plane straight. This might be more of a problem for the mono than for the tri-gear. For the tri gear one can opt to land with the flaps up or partially deployed if a higher stall speed is desired. At the next occasion I will do some checks to see if indeed the stall speed has been affected by these seals. I didn't know that a STOL-kit was so easy to make for an Europa. :-) Oh, and I just assumed that with seals on the flap gap you mean seals on the upperside of the wing. Not on the huge gap on the lowerside of the wing, right? In the latter case, I can see how that could increase the stall speed as you effectively change the fowler flaps into non-fowler flaps. I didn't apply seals on the lowerside of the wing for exactly this reason. Do you still have the seals on the rudder? I only did the starboard side, because at the port side the gap opens up quite a bit with full right rudder, and the seals might be sucked inside the gap and block the rudder. I would like to hear if someone indeed tried seals on the port side of the rudder. I have quite a nasty transition there as the rudder is less wide than the rear of the fuselage. I would love to smooth out this transition but I'm not going to be the one who finds out whether this is a good idea or not. ;-) Frans -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:03:59 AM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    On Jul 30, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Oh, and I just assumed that with seals on the flap gap you mean > seals on > the upperside of the wing. Not on the huge gap on the lowerside of the > wing, right? In the latter case, I can see how that could increase the > stall speed as you effectively change the fowler flaps into non-fowler > flaps. I didn't apply seals on the lowerside of the wing for exactly > this reason. Frans, If memory serves, I believe the kind of seals you describe are appropriate for the ailerons, and not necessarily for flaps. I seem to recall reading that flap seals function best when...at some point along the gap between the wing and flap...there is a linear compressible rod which runs the length of the flap...it is designed to maintain the pressure differential between the air along the top of the flat and that along the bottom of the flap when the flap is retracted. The flap seal is not intended to "smooth" the airflow across the top of the flap when the flap is either deployed or retracted. But I'm not the expert, and I hope John Lawton will comment further, Fred


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:20:21 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Hi Pete, > My seals are all on the top surface and the hinge line of the rudder. Ah, I also did the underside of the ailerons and the underside of the tailplanes. > I will be most interested to hear the results of your stall speed tests. I > would have expected hot and high to have had an opposite effect on > performance. What do you mean? You expected the performance to get worse by using seals? Or the other way around? > My rudder is also a poor fit at the bottom, the fuselage is too wide, how > ever it is probably in turbulent air off the prop. Well, after I applied seals on the hinge line of the rudder, I noticed that I need more right rudder than before. I have a small trim tab to get a neutral rudder during cruise, but I had to bend the trim tab quite a bit more to the left after I applied the seals. So at least the seal is doing something, be it good or bad. More right rudder needed is actually the opposite effect of what I expected. Can't explain why this is or what the implication is. The rudder is anyway a mystery to me. I have a vent opening in the D-panel and connected a scat hose to it to a similar opening to the rudder closeout. The idea here is that the rudder closeout is a low pressure area, due to the shape and also due to the gaps, and helps the air vacate the cabin to improve ventilation. Oddly enough though, the D-panel opening not sucks the air out of the cabin but actually blows a lot of air *into* the cabin! My doors don't leak, I have no other openings in the cabin. I have no idea where that air coming in from the rudder is going and why the rudder closeout is a higher pressure area than the cabin. Really weird. If anyone has an idea I would love to hear. Regards, Frans


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:32:02 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Frans=0Aagree it's-surprising-that there is higher pressure in the-ru dder-closeout. It is probably due to the reduction in pressure=0Aas the a irflow accelerates to pass the wide fuselage, then slows down as it rejoins the ambient air. That implies=0Agood pressure recovery on the rear fuselag e so less drag!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0AS ent: Monday, 30 July 2012, 20:13=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar seals an s@privatepilots.nl>=0A=0AHi Pete,=0A=0A> My seals are all on the top surfac e and the hinge line of the rudder.=0A=0AAh, I also did the underside of th e ailerons and the underside of the=0Atailplanes.=0A=0A> I will be most int erested to hear the results of your stall speed tests. I=0A> would have exp ected hot and high to have had an opposite effect on=0A> performance.=0A=0A What do you mean? You expected the performance to get worse by using=0Aseal s? Or the other way around?=0A=0A> My rudder is also a poor fit at the bott om, the fuselage is too wide, how=0A> ever it is probably in turbulent air off the prop. =0A=0AWell, after I applied seals on the hinge line of the ru dder, I noticed=0Athat I need more right rudder than before. I have a small trim tab to=0Aget a neutral rudder during cruise, but I had to bend the tr im tab quite=0Aa bit more to the left after I applied the seals. So at leas t the seal=0Ais doing something, be it good or bad.=0A=0AMore right rudder needed is actually the opposite effect of what I=0Aexpected. Can't explain why this is or what the implication is.=0A=0AThe rudder is anyway a mystery to me. I have a vent opening in the=0AD-panel and connected a scat hose to it to a similar opening to the=0Arudder closeout. The idea here is that th e rudder closeout is a low=0Apressure area, due to the shape and also due t o the gaps, and helps the=0Aair vacate the cabin to improve ventilation. Od dly enough though, the=0AD-panel opening not sucks the air out of the cabin but actually blows a=0Alot of air *into* the cabin! My doors don't leak, I have no other=0Aopenings in the cabin. I have no idea where that air comin g in from the=0Arudder is going and why the rudder closeout is a higher pre ssure area=0Athan the cabin. Really weird. If anyone has an idea I would lo - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ====


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:46:09 AM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Hi Frans=2C I am with you on this one. If there is one thing that always puzzles me=2C is when someone says that you can't do this=2C but doesn't give any reasoni ng as to why. Karl > Date: Mon=2C 30 Jul 2012 17:29:07 +0200 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar seals and stall speed? > > > Hi Pete=2C > > > I have had the Mylar gap seals since new in 2003. Mine were fitted to the > > flap gap=2C as well as the ailerons and rudder=2C but my inspector was not happy > > and checked with the PFA/LAA. They were not happy either about possibl e > > effects on the stall speed and the seals were removed from the flap gap > > before the first flight. > > I can imagine someone fearing that the stall speed increases... but here > the stall speed decreases. Is that a bad thing=2C to lower the stall spee d? > > Isn't that the holy grail of wing design=2C to lower the stall speed > without hurting the cruise and top end performance? > > I can imagine that with heavy cross wind the airplane keeps flaring > beyond the point where the rudder can keep the plane straight. This > might be more of a problem for the mono than for the tri-gear. For the > tri gear one can opt to land with the flaps up or partially deployed if > a higher stall speed is desired. > > At the next occasion I will do some checks to see if indeed the stall > speed has been affected by these seals. I didn't know that a STOL-kit > was so easy to make for an Europa. :-) > > Oh=2C and I just assumed that with seals on the flap gap you mean seals o n > the upperside of the wing. Not on the huge gap on the lowerside of the > wing=2C right? In the latter case=2C I can see how that could increase th e > stall speed as you effectively change the fowler flaps into non-fowler > flaps. I didn't apply seals on the lowerside of the wing for exactly > this reason. > > Do you still have the seals on the rudder? I only did the starboard > side=2C because at the port side the gap opens up quite a bit with full > right rudder=2C and the seals might be sucked inside the gap and block th e > rudder. I would like to hear if someone indeed tried seals on the port > side of the rudder. I have quite a nasty transition there as the rudder > is less wide than the rear of the fuselage. I would love to smooth out > this transition but I'm not going to be the one who finds out whether > this is a good idea or not. =3B-) > > Frans > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 12:26:20 PM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Hi Frans No I was thinking if your take off performance has improved when you were hot and high (a bad combination for performance) that there may be a greater improvement closer to sea level. And yes I forgot mine also has strips on the top of the trim tabs. Nothing at all underneath. Unfortunately I have never flown the aeroplane without the strips so I can't make a judgement as to their effectiveness. But I do get a 120 kt + cruise at 14.4 litres per hour off an 80hp 912ul with an NSI vp prop. Cruise revs 4,200. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 30 July 2012 20:13 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar seals and stall speed? Hi Pete, > My seals are all on the top surface and the hinge line of the rudder. Ah, I also did the underside of the ailerons and the underside of the tailplanes. > I will be most interested to hear the results of your stall speed tests. I > would have expected hot and high to have had an opposite effect on > performance. What do you mean? You expected the performance to get worse by using seals? Or the other way around? > My rudder is also a poor fit at the bottom, the fuselage is too wide, how > ever it is probably in turbulent air off the prop. Well, after I applied seals on the hinge line of the rudder, I noticed that I need more right rudder than before. I have a small trim tab to get a neutral rudder during cruise, but I had to bend the trim tab quite a bit more to the left after I applied the seals. So at least the seal is doing something, be it good or bad. More right rudder needed is actually the opposite effect of what I expected. Can't explain why this is or what the implication is. The rudder is anyway a mystery to me. I have a vent opening in the D-panel and connected a scat hose to it to a similar opening to the rudder closeout. The idea here is that the rudder closeout is a low pressure area, due to the shape and also due to the gaps, and helps the air vacate the cabin to improve ventilation. Oddly enough though, the D-panel opening not sucks the air out of the cabin but actually blows a lot of air *into* the cabin! My doors don't leak, I have no other openings in the cabin. I have no idea where that air coming in from the rudder is going and why the rudder closeout is a higher pressure area than the cabin. Really weird. If anyone has an idea I would love to hear. Regards, Frans -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 20


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    Time: 12:45:09 PM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    On 07/30/2012 09:25 PM, Pete Lawless wrote: > And yes I forgot mine also has strips on the top of the trim tabs. Nothing > at all underneath. Oh, I have the opposite. The hinge line (on top) matches perfectly with the tail plane and trim tab so I decided to leave that alone. On the underside thouph is quite a gap so I installed the seals there. > Unfortunately I have never flown the aeroplane without the strips so I can't > make a judgement as to their effectiveness. But I do get a 120 kt + cruise > at 14.4 litres per hour off an 80hp 912ul with an NSI vp prop. Cruise revs > 4,200. I don't know the 912ul but this sounds pretty good to me! I can't get 120kt out of 14.4 liters with my 914. Do you have a mono? Frans


    Message 21


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    Time: 01:58:31 PM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Hi Frans=2C Talking about fuel consumption again=2C I am surprised to learn that you ca n get 4 1/2 hour legs. You mentioned that in your optimum cruise at 125 kts the engine uses 18l/hour=2C and of course for takeoff and climbout the con sumption is always a lot more. So that makes about 86 litres ? Are you usin g the long range tank ? Karl > Date: Mon=2C 30 Jul 2012 22:38:15 +0200 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar seals and stall speed? > > > On 07/30/2012 09:25 PM=2C Pete Lawless wrote: > > > And yes I forgot mine also has strips on the top of the trim tabs. Not hing > > at all underneath. > > Oh=2C I have the opposite. The hinge line (on top) matches perfectly with > the tail plane and trim tab so I decided to leave that alone. On the > underside thouph is quite a gap so I installed the seals there. > > > Unfortunately I have never flown the aeroplane without the strips so I can't > > make a judgement as to their effectiveness. But I do get a 120 kt + cr uise > > at 14.4 litres per hour off an 80hp 912ul with an NSI vp prop. Cruise revs > > 4=2C200. > > I don't know the 912ul but this sounds pretty good to me! I can't get > 120kt out of 14.4 liters with my 914. > Do you have a mono? > > Frans > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 02:56:23 PM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Mylar seals and stall speed?
    Hi Frans Yes it's a mono. No speed kit fitted. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 30 July 2012 21:38 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar seals and stall speed? On 07/30/2012 09:25 PM, Pete Lawless wrote: > And yes I forgot mine also has strips on the top of the trim tabs. Nothing > at all underneath. Oh, I have the opposite. The hinge line (on top) matches perfectly with the tail plane and trim tab so I decided to leave that alone. On the underside thouph is quite a gap so I installed the seals there. > Unfortunately I have never flown the aeroplane without the strips so I can't > make a judgement as to their effectiveness. But I do get a 120 kt + cruise > at 14.4 litres per hour off an 80hp 912ul with an NSI vp prop. Cruise revs > 4,200. I don't know the 912ul but this sounds pretty good to me! I can't get 120kt out of 14.4 liters with my 914. Do you have a mono? Frans -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 23


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    Time: 03:05:42 PM PST US
    From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: Possible New Build
    Steve You might be interested in the attached. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Robinson Sent: 18 July 2012 16:50 Subject: Europa-List: Possible New Build Hi, I'm seriously thinking about building a Europa XS with my two sons, near Newbury, UK. I would like to see a build in progress if possible to see where the pitfalls might be, workshop considerations, talk through what's involved etc. I will try and get to the LAA sywell rally at the end of august too before we take the plunge.. Any current builds in the south UK willing to open their doors to us for an afternoon? Steve.


    Message 24


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    Time: 03:05:52 PM PST US
    Subject: which one to cut out?
    From: "fireflier" <fireflier@btinternet.com>
    Looking for some advice and help if possible? I have been marking the cockpit module to trim and cut out etc. However when it came to marking for the rudder cable access holes I have a problem and don't know which one to cut out. On the port side of the cockpit module there is 2 lots of trim lines one is hatched the other isn't. There is only one marked on the starboard side, this again has the hatched lines through it. The attached photo will give a better understanding of the problem I have. I'm leaning towards the hatched one being the correct one to cut out as this matches the one on the starboard side of the module. Any help as to determining the correct one to cut out would be much appreciated. Kind regards Donald -------- Fireflier Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379634#379634 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rudder_cable_access_holes_897.jpg


    Message 25


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    Time: 03:34:02 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: which one to cut out?
    From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
    Hi Donald "> Looking for some advice and help if possible? > > I have been marking the cockpit module to trim and cut out etc. However > when it came to marking for the rudder cable access holes I have a problem > and don&#39;t know which one to cut out." You can have a look at a few pics of my Mono XS: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=86921 Ron Parigoris


    Message 26


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    Time: 03:54:37 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: which one to cut out?
    From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Donald, Here's a picture from below of what I believe are the openings in the cockpit module you write about. They are cut out in the most outboard locations. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jul 30, 2012, at 5:05 PM, fireflier wrote: Looking for some advice and help if possible? I have been marking the cockpit module to trim and cut out etc. However when it came to marking for the rudder cable access holes I have a problem and don't know which one to cut out. On the port side of the cockpit module there is 2 lots of trim lines one is hatched the other isn't. There is only one marked on the starboard side, this again has the hatched lines through it. The attached photo will give a better understanding of the problem I have. I'm leaning towards the hatched one being the correct one to cut out as this matches the one on the starboard side of the module. Any help as to determining the correct one to cut out would be much appreciated. Kind regards Donald -------- Fireflier Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379634#379634 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rudder_cable_access_holes_897.jpg


    Message 27


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    Time: 05:17:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hello Peter. Sorry for taking so long, lost the camera/computer cable, but here are the pictures. The hollow is about 4" in front of the main gear leg, No cracks or surface damage in the hollow. And no damage in the area all looks symmetrical. The trouble is i can,t remember if it was there before.!! I did have a bird strike, a Crow came up from underneath on that side, i heard a thud and thought it have been swept round and hit the tail plane on the other side,? i did not look under the aircraft at the time. But just can,t remember if the hollow was there when i first gave the aircraft a polish. Hope the photo,s are good enough.The sealant looks a mess in the photo but its all intact. My finger will give you some scale of size. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379646#379646 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0848_124.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0849_115.jpg


    Message 28


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    Time: 05:21:44 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Peter. Forgot to say the aircraft is a Mono to Tri Gear Conversion. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379647#379647


    Message 29


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    Time: 09:25:43 PM PST US
    From: Bill Sisley <bill.sue@orcon.net.nz>
    Subject: Re: Vapour lock? Why?
    Have you checked the finger filter in the entry side of the fuel pump? Cheers Sue & Bill On 31/07/2012 3:05 a.m., Frans Veldman wrote: > > Jeff, > >> My own experience with vapor lock was nerve wracking. After fighting it >> for months, I finally figured it out. The carb bowls were getting hot. > This is not the problem I have. The engine was still relatively cold, > and I saw the fuel pressure drop. The fuel pressure is measured before > the carbs. A vapor lock inside the carbs doesn't result in a pressure > drop before the carbs. > > I also got some private mails, but not everyone seems to know that I > have a Rotax 914. The 914 has two electrical pumps, mounted under the > bagage bay. If there is a fuel pressure drop, something is wrong outside > of the engine bay (unless it is the fuel pressure regulator itself). > > I appreciate your advice, but I don't think it applies to my ship. It > can't have been the carbs. > > Frans > >


    Message 30


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    Time: 10:43:55 PM PST US
    From: DAVID JOYCE <stranfaer@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.
    Alan =0AWhy dont you get your LAA Inspector to have a look at the ripple to be on the safe side, its really difficult to see and indeed to give any op inions from a distance is like asking your doctor to diagnose a broken leg without X Rays!. =0AYou could also call Neil France whom I believe did the last LAA annual Inspection on your aircraft, if there was any structural is sues oin the aircraft it simply would not have passed. Email me if you want a contact number?=0Argds=0ADavid =0A(The Other One)=0A=0A=0ASent to you fr om David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A =0A=0A_________________________ _______=0A From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>=0ATo: europa-list@m atronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 31 July 2012, 1:16=0ASubject: Europa-List: R an Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>=0A=0AHello Peter.=0ASorry for taking so long, lost the camera/computer cable, but here are the pictures.=0AThe h ollow is about 4" in front of the main gear leg, No cracks or surface damag e in the hollow. And no damage in the area all looks symmetrical.=0AThe tro uble is i can,t remember if it was there before.!!=0AI did have a bird stri ke, a Crow came up from underneath on that side, i heard a thud and thought it have been swept round and hit the tail plane on the other side,? i did not look under the aircraft at the time.=0ABut just can,t remember if the h ollow was there when i first gave the aircraft a polish.=0AHope the photo,s are good enough.The sealant looks a mess in the photo but its all intact. My finger will give you some scale of size.=0AAlan=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37964 6#379646=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments: =0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com//file s/cimg0848_124.jpg=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0849_115.jpg=0A ==================




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