---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/31/12: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - Re: Mylar seals and stall speed? (Frans Veldman) 2. 12:14 AM - SV: Vapour lock? Why? (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 3. 12:41 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 4. 12:59 AM - Re: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (Peter Jeffers) 5. 01:12 AM - Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? (tennant) 6. 01:28 AM - Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (Alan Carter) 7. 01:32 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 8. 01:37 AM - Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 9. 01:56 AM - Re: Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 10. 02:26 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 11. 02:33 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (JonSmith) 12. 03:01 AM - Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? (tennant) 13. 03:42 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 14. 04:46 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 15. 05:08 AM - door weather seals (Bill Henderson) 16. 05:52 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Paul McAllister) 17. 06:08 AM - Proposal fuel system enhancement for mogas (Frans Veldman) 18. 06:31 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 19. 07:08 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 20. 09:14 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 21. 10:51 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com) 22. 10:59 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 23. 11:58 AM - SV: Vapour lock? Why? (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 24. 12:14 PM - cameras and mounting (graeme bird) 25. 12:27 PM - Re: cameras and mounting (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 26. 12:54 PM - Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 27. 01:04 PM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Frans Veldman) 28. 01:15 PM - Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 29. 01:33 PM - Re: cameras and mounting (Robert Borger) 30. 01:55 PM - Re: cameras and mounting (pestar) 31. 02:29 PM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com) 32. 02:48 PM - Re: cameras and mounting (Carl Pattinson) 33. 03:09 PM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Paul McAllister) 34. 03:10 PM - Re: Proposal fuel system enhancement for mogas (jonathanmilbank) 35. 05:28 PM - Re: cameras and mounting (Martin Tuck) 36. 05:36 PM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (h&jeuropa) 37. 05:42 PM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (h&jeuropa) 38. 06:07 PM - Re: cameras and mounting (Pete) 39. 07:55 PM - Re: cameras and mounting (Robert Borger) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:35 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar seals and stall speed? On 07/30/2012 10:57 PM, Karl Heindl wrote: > Hi Frans, > > Talking about fuel consumption again, I am surprised to learn that you > can get 4 1/2 hour legs. No, I didn't say that (sorry if I gave that impression). I made one tankstop. 4 1/2 hour was the total flying time to get home. The point I tright to make was that the engine behaved normally for the 4 1/2 hours flown after the fuel pressure drop. > You mentioned that in your optimum cruise at > 125 kts the engine uses 18l/hour, Well, actually slightly less than 18l/hour, and the 125 kts is the indicated airspeed, so at FL85 on this trip I was looking at ground speeds close to 140 kts. But still I need to make one stop, not only to refuel the airplane, but also because my personal "range" is also about 3 hours. It feels good to get out of that cramped cockpit once in a couple of hours. ;-) Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:04 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Frans, If vapour is formed anywhere in the fuel line, the bubbles will move towards the carbs as soon as a pump is switched on. I do not know the length of the fuel line from the pump to the carbs, but let us for argument's sake assume 3 m. This mean an internal volume of 0.15 liter, plus say 0.05 liter for one filter and a gascolator (if fitted). This means that when a total volume of 0.2 liter has been pumped through the line, there should be no more vapour bubbles (with one exception, see below). I do not know how much fuel is returned to the tank in a 914 installation during ground operation. Engine consumption is also unknown, but I am sure it is at least "some liters" per hour. At consumption of 1 liter/hour it takes 12 minutes for 0,2 liter to flow through; at 5 liter/hour it takes 2.4 minutes. Any fuel return flow reduces this time. With some idling for warm-up, taxi to holding, run-up and line-up, I believe that much more than 0.2 liter is pumped through the line before you begin the take-off roll. Theoretically, bubbles may get "stuck" in the filter or gascolator (if fitted) at low flow, and then "torn loose" when the flow increases at full throttle. My 912ULS consumes abt. 33 liters/hour at full take-off RPM/power. At this flow, it would take 24 seconds for a bubble to pass through the entire 3 meter long system, less if it had been trapped somewhere closer to the engine. What does the transient pressure drop that you observed indicate? There will be a pressure drop just when a bubble coming from upstream of the pump passes through it, and when a bubble passes through the pressure regulator and into the fuel return line (I do not know the details of the 914 installation, so I may be mistaken here). Both drops will be of very short duration, however. A pressure drop in itself will not cause any change in engine performance, but reduced pressure may cause too low fuel flow to the carb bowls. A fuel vapour bubble reaching a carb has of course the same effect - too little fuel. What speaks against vapour lock as the cause is your observation that the engine afterwards ran fine at low/medium throttle but not at high, and that the fuel pressure then dropped. This would indicate that the fuel flow is restricted (as already suggested on this forum). Later on all was fine, you report. Has the restriction migrated to the filter, where it does not do so much harm? Hmmmmm... Your question regarding AVGAS vs. MOGAS: Wikipedia states that "Avgas has a lower and more uniform vapor pressure than automotive gasoline so it remains in the liquid state despite the reduced atmospheric pressure at high altitude, thus preventing vapor lock." Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:10 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 07/31/2012 06:24 AM, Bill Sisley wrote: > Have you checked the finger filter in the entry side of the fuel pump? Good point. I didn't. Since home I have digged deeper into this subject. I didn't mention that I topped off the tank with 40 liters of mogas. I just assumed that apart from the ethanol and lower octane rating and absence of lead that the fuel would have a similar boiling point. I now learned that this assumption is totally wrong. Given the altitude and temperature it is fully understandable that I experienced vapor lock, mogas just has to vaporize in these conditions. So, this is a lesson learned. I should have learned more about it instead of blindly pouring in mogas because it is best for the engine and so far always worked very well. Which now poses a dilemma. I try to avoid using avgas as much as possible because of the lead. But now I should try to avoid using mogas when the temperatures are high and the altitude is high. Given my personal preferences regarding weather and flying altitude this applies to most of the longer trips. It looks like the vapour lock develops at the inlets of the electrical fuel pumps. The fuel has to be sucked through the fuel filters and this drop in pressure causes formation of bubbles. I have actually observed this happening when I was building the airplane and put the fuel system in use on a hot day: I spent a lot of time searching for a supposed air leak because of all the bubbles I saw passing the fuel filters, which in the end turned out to be "just" fuel vapor bubbles. Reading more about this subject I have learned that the best way to prevent this from happening is to put a fuel pump *inside* the fuel tank to get the pressure up before the fuel even leaves the tank, and not to suck fuel through the filter but to push it through the filter. This way one prevents the pressure drop which causes the fuel to vaporize. It seems that this is a common practice in cars with fuel injection, to have the fuel pump literally inside the tank or at least directly at the tank outlet. Of course such a fuel pump could fail (especially because it lacks a fine filter before the inlet) so it is an additional risk. Then again it is possible to use it only on one of the fuel tank outlets. Switching to the other outlet then bypasses the failed pump. I now just wonder how many of us are actually using mogas in hot weather? Am I the only one struggling with this dilemma? Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:36 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. Hi Alan, Since the dent, as shown in your photo, could just have resulted from a movement of the leg socket, I personally would want to very carefully inspect the leg socket securing structure. My suggestion is that you need to get a Europa experienced inspector to check it out for you. I believe David Lloyd at Shobdon used to look after your aircraft so in the first instance I would talk to him. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 31 July 2012 01:17 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. Hello Peter. Sorry for taking so long, lost the camera/computer cable, but here are the pictures. The hollow is about 4" in front of the main gear leg, No cracks or surface damage in the hollow. And no damage in the area all looks symmetrical. The trouble is i can,t remember if it was there before.!! I did have a bird strike, a Crow came up from underneath on that side, i heard a thud and thought it have been swept round and hit the tail plane on the other side,? i did not look under the aircraft at the time. But just can,t remember if the hollow was there when i first gave the aircraft a polish. Hope the photo,s are good enough.The sealant looks a mess in the photo but its all intact. My finger will give you some scale of size. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379646#379646 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0848_124.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0849_115.jpg ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:02 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? From: "tennant" Hi Franz, I had a very scary episode about 12 years ago with my Europa taking off from a glider site in Germany. 1500 ft elevation & 36 deg C temps. I had to taxi through long grass at quite high power to get to a short tarmac runway. Take off roll was fine and only when I was in the air did the stuttering and power loss begin. Luckily the glider site is on a hill so I could get up some speed descending into the valley. She stuttered her way up to about 1000 ft above the field and I waited to see if the "vapor lock" would clear but after 5 mins landed again to change my pants!! There was no pressure loss, or at least my warning lamp did not come on which is quite sensitive. I took the cowling off straight away and removed one of the fuel lines from the carbs. Fuel spit me in the face so I was sure at that time that it was a vapor lock. I had had enough for one day and called someone to bring my trailer. The next day I tried a run up on the trailer. Everything was OK until I tried full power then the stuttering began again, no vapor lock this time!! I searched for the problem for a month before in frustration I wanted to measure the fuel flow from the pumps and found that about 50% of what was coming out of the fuel line at a carb was air!! I had no obvious fuel leaks but air was getting into the system. I changed all the fuel hoses (Europa originals), re-routed them with insulation, changed the clips and no more air. I am still not sure that it was a vapor lock on that day but it certainly made me re think my fueling strategy. I now always fill with Avgas when the temperature is approaching 30 deg C or bellow 0 deg C. No idea and not suggesting that it ha anything to do with your case. Just an experience. Barry -------- Barry Tennant D-EHBT At EDLM - Germany Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379670#379670 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:04 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. From: "Alan Carter" Thanks Peter. I have raised the aircraft on a air bag and checked for movement all was OK. However I want to get a Europa Inspector to check all the aircraft out,and go over it with me, which will be very useful. So will get onto the LAA for one in my area. i will also speak to David. Many thanks Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379671#379671 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Frans I have a 914, not flying yet. I purchased a tool from the guy who makes the lead scrubber additive (not TCP, the one not for use with certified aeroplanes, but you can transport in cabin) that measures at what altitude you can fly to with the brew in your fuel tank. It takes into consideration temp, % of avgas, % of mogas and % of alcohol. It's a syringe that you pull a specific vacuum on a scale, let it sit for a short time and you can read then to what altitude you are safe to fly to. It is very possible on a hot day at a high temperature, you get a stay on the ground reading. I noticed he stopped selling them a while back though. That said, do you have a differential pressure gauge on your 914? Direct fuel pressure reading does not provide very useful info unless you do the calculations to see how you are doing. Did you do the math to determine if you are in the differential limits? It's worth it to do I think it's in Europas test, cheat your fuel pressure regulator to thinking you are at ~ 18K (I think that was the approx. test), then do a fuel flow test, monitor differential fuel pressure as well and make sure you are where you want to be. The thinner the outside air and the thicker (inside your engine MP) air, the more fuel pressure you will need. Something marginal will usually show itself at this time. A restriction in your fuel system will also show. Do you have a single point of failure or restriction in your system like a gasculator? Or do you have a system when you turn on pump #2 it sucks from a separate fuel filter? What happened when you turned on pump two, did it not make a change? Rotax recommends cleaning the fuel pump intake side filter socks once a year, they say that this is the leading cause of fuel pump failures. On a 914 the float bowl gasket sealing is critical, differential fuel pressure being positive only means you will be able to force the fuel into the float bowls, if there is not airbox pressure that is maintained in the float chamber (or higher than airbox pressure in the case you are asking more than 108% power and the hand in the breeze is plumbed into) your carbs with be providing a serious lean mixture condition. If you are flying out of a tight field with a 914, if you are asking more than what a 912 can produce it's prudent to follow Rotax 914 users manual and do a DO, I forget if it's a 178 or something in the 170s take off. In other words turn off the TCU with the wastegate in the closed position and adjust you MP with the throttle. Once you reach a safe altitude then turn back on the TCU, this prevents the TCU for whatever reason from turning the 914 into a straight 912 at just the wrong moment. For a short period of time using the throttle to control MP is not going to cause much harm, but doing this trick for long periods of time is bad for the turbo, the turbo is working overtime and you are now forcing it's cool side output into a restriction. I don't know if your mogas has alcohol in it, but flying up high and into colder conditions can make the alcohol that has commingled with water to precipitate out and cause problems. I for one will probably follow my vapor pressure tools suggestion, and if I plan on flying high will add 2 or 3% Isopropyl Alcohol to my mix in an attempt to keep water in solution. The more alcohol you run the richer your mixture needs to be. I will make sure when I do the required by Rotax (but not many folks do this great test) CO test to make sure your leanest cylinder is running rich enough at War Emergency power (I will also test between 85 and 100% too), I will do this with 10% Ethanol and 5% Isopropyl. I am installing the ability to lean along with an O2 sensor driven display to see how the mixture is doing in addition to EGTs. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:30 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Hi Svein, > I do not know how much fuel is returned to the tank in a 914 > installation during ground operation. The 914 has no mechanical fuel pump, only two electrical pumps. These pumps pump at least 60 liters per hour through the system. Always, including during idle. So the vast majority of the fuel returns to the tank after passing the pressure regulator which is mounted on top of the air box. > consumption of 1 liter/hour it takes 12 minutes for 0,2 liter to flow > through; at 5 liter/hour it takes 2.4 minutes. For a 914 we are talking about seconds here. > A pressure drop in itself will not cause any change in engine > performance, but reduced pressure may cause too low fuel flow to the > carb bowls. On a 914 the fuel pressure is regulated over the airbox pressure. So, if at full power the turbo kicks in and the carbs are pressurised, the fuel pressure has to go up with it. On this particular mountain field the ambient pressure was about 24" (this was indicated by my manifold pressure gauge before starting the engine). The 914 has 40 inch of manyfold pressure on take off power, slightly more in the airbox. The fuel pressure has to remain 6 psi above this. See where this is going? What I think has happened is that the mogas vaporised in the fuel filters, due to the pressure drop, caused by the flow resistance of the filters. The filters are before the fuel pumps. So any vaopur forming in the fuel filters will flow to the pumps, which then turn into a void. At lining up, I switched on both fuel pumps. Now two pumps where sucking on the fuel filters, probably releasing a lot of bubbles at the instant I switched on the second fuel pump. About 5 to 10 seconds later, the engine hesistated. I think this was the moment where the vapour bubbles reached the pressure regulator, at the very same time the turbo reached maximum pressure and the fuel pressure had to go up in a similar fashion. The only way to prevent this from happening (except for using avgas or avoiding high and hot take offs) is to use a fuel pump mounted inside the fuel tank, to get the pressure up before the fuel even leaves the tank and avoiding the pressure drop at the suction side and filters altogether. > What speaks against vapour lock as the cause is your observation that > the engine afterwards ran fine at low/medium throttle but not at high, > and that the fuel pressure then dropped. My fuel pressure gauge indicates relative fuel pressure, i.e. fuel pressure on top of the airbox pressure. The pressure regulator keeps the pressure at 6 psi above the airbox pressure at all times. So, regardless of airbox pressure, turbo pressure or throttle setting, all I should see is 6 psi of fuel pressure (which is the same as the carbs are seeing because they live in a pressurised world; their vent lines are connected to the airbox). In reality though the absolute fuel pressure has to go up with the turbo pressure to maintain this relative pressure. This relative fuel pressure could no longer be maintained when the turbo pressure went up, hence the indicated pressure drop on the gauge. The absolute pressure probably remained the same because it was during idle already on the max that the pumps could deliver in this particular circumstance. The vent line of the carbs is connected to the airbox, so if the airbox pressure goes up but the fuel pressure doesn't follow, the fuel will stop flowing into the carbs. Hmm, the explanation is a bit chaotic but I think you will understand it anyway. If I had become airborn, I could probably have saved the day by throttling back to a throttle setting where the airbox pressure would fall below the fuel pressure. At worst this would have been 24" because this was the ambient pressure at that altitude. I think I can maintain altitude with 24" and probably even climb a bit, but sure it won't have been fun. Provided of course that I had enough common sense to throttle back against instinct before the engine stalled due to lack of fuel. > Your question regarding AVGAS vs. MOGAS: Wikipedia states that /"Avgas > has a lower and more uniform vapor pressure than automotive gasoline so > it remains in the liquid state despite the reduced atmospheric pressure > at high altitude, thus preventing vapor lock."/ Yep. I have seen that too. Lesson learned. Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:49 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? Hi Barry, > 1500 ft elevation & 36 deg C temps. I had to taxi through long grass > at quite high power to get to a short tarmac runway. Take off roll > was fine and only when I was in the air did the stuttering and power > loss begin. Luckily the glider site is on a hill so I could get up > some speed descending into the valley. She stuttered her way up to > about 1000 ft above the field and I waited to see if the "vapor lock" > would clear but after 5 mins landed again to change my pants!! There > was no pressure loss, or at least my warning lamp did not come on > which is quite sensitive. Must have been a scary experience! Do you have a 914? The only correct way to measure fuel pressure in that case is to measure relative fuel pressure, i.e. fuel pressure compared to airbox pressure. The 914 has no "static" fuel pressure. Sufficient fuel pressure for a low throttle setting may be insufficient for higher throttle settings. > time!! I searched for the problem for a month before in frustration I > wanted to measure the fuel flow from the pumps and found that about > 50% of what was coming out of the fuel line at a carb was air!! I had > no obvious fuel leaks but air was getting into the system. Are you sure it was air? I had the very same problem and spent almost a whole frustrating day searching for the air leak. There wasn't any, the bubbles where fuel vapor bubbles, which form inside the suction line and fuel filter due to the pressure drop caused by the fuel pump. > I changed > all the fuel hoses (Europa originals), re-routed them with > insulation, changed the clips and no more air. Maybe it was a colder day, or different fuel... > I am still not sure > that it was a vapor lock on that day but it certainly made me re > think my fueling strategy. I now always fill with Avgas when the > temperature is approaching 30 deg C or bellow 0 deg C. Well, most of my flying is at higher temperatures or at higher altitudes, so this pretty much bans the use of mogas unless I solve this problem. Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:43 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Hi Ron, > I have a 914, not flying yet. I purchased a tool from the guy who makes > the lead scrubber additive (not TCP, the one not for use with certified > aeroplanes, but you can transport in cabin) Decalin? > that measures at what > altitude you can fly to with the brew in your fuel tank. It takes into > consideration temp, % of avgas, % of mogas and % of alcohol. It's a > syringe that you pull a specific vacuum on a scale, Hey, great idea! An easy way to do this is to measure the pressure drop inside the suction line (fuel pump inlet, downstream fuel filters) (you have to measure this only once, preferably on fuel filters at the end of their life) and pull this amount of vacuum on your fuel sample and see if it starts to "boil" in that condition. If you take a sample of the fuel in the tank, you already have the correct temperature and %avgas and altitude applying to your situation. I could even make a built in device that does so automatically and registers whether bubbles develop, and gives an alarm. Or, even much more simple: install a piece of glas in the fuel line (the standard Europa fuel filter with its internals removed will do) and detect if any bubbles are passing. It could give an instant alarm when bubbles are detected "Vapor lock! Vapor lock!". Just as with boiling water, micro bubbles will start forming some time before hell turns loose. Regardless of changing circumstances (altitude, throttle setting, fuel temperature) it would instantly alert for dangerous conditions. > That said, do you have a differential pressure gauge on your 914? Yep. I'm one of the guys stressing the importance of such a gauge. > Do you > have a single point of failure or restriction in your system like a > gasculator? No, I have two filters, each connected to one fuel pump. > What happened when you turned on pump two, > did it not make a change? I had already two pumps on when it happened, but I think that one pump had performed better in this situation due to the lower pressure drop over the fuel filter. > I don't know if your mogas has alcohol in it, but flying up high and > into colder conditions can make the alcohol that has commingled with > water to precipitate out and cause problems. I only buy fresh mogas and pour it in just before flight. > I will make sure when I do the required by Rotax (but not many folks > do this great test) CO test to make sure your leanest cylinder is > running rich enough at War Emergency power (I will also test between 85 > and 100% too), I plan on installing an injection system this winter, to get rid of the carbs, and getting the correct mixture in all cylinders all the time. Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:10 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vapour lock? Why? From: "JonSmith" Hi Frans, Just for interest - the UK LAA's website contains some useful info on Mogas and the LAA requirements. It's under the tab "LAA aircraft" and sub tab "Mogas". There's general requirements for all LAA aircraft (that wish to use Mogas) plus some specific requirements for particular types, ie Rotaxes, Europas etc. Amongst other things, each individual aircraft has to be approved, placcarded and signed off by an inspector to use Mogas, we have to have fuel return lines, fuel drains etc etc.. There is a lot of emphasis on the volatility of Mogas compared to Avgas and we must only use BS EN228 95 RON and the mandatory operating limitations are specified as a maximum altitude of 6000 feet and a maximum fuel temperature of 20 deg C. I have only experienced one episode of vapour locking on my Europa (912ULS). In the UK it seems to be impossible now to obtain ethanol-free mogas (we are not approved to use it if it does contain ethanol). My local garage sells the higher octane "excellium" grade (98 RON) which I tested to be ethanol free. My completely uneducated thinking at the time said - sounds good stuff - that will be great! I did not know at the time that this fuel is also completely not authorised for use as Mogas due to its (even) higher volatility, according to the LAA notes. I used it 3 or 4 times with no probs until one day, after a long taxy back through long grass where the engine got quite warm I tried to start it again after a few minutes and it just would not fire at all. After a few attempts there was a very strong smell of fuel and I could hear it boiling. So I left it for a couple of hours with the cowl off and later it bust into life at the first go! Now I try to use the new 91UL where possible. Cheers, -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379676#379676 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:59 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: SV: Vapour lock? Why? From: "tennant" Hi Frans, As I said previously, my case is surely different to your experience. I have a humble 912 - 80 hp. It was definitely air and since I changed the hoses it has gone. The original Europa hoses in the mid 90's were not compatible with Mogas and they split at the ends after 2 or 3 years on Mogas. I think that my problem was a combination of vapor and porous hoses, it is only strange that it showed itself at the same time, or one caused the other. Barry -------- Barry Tennant D-EHBT At EDLM - Germany Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379677#379677 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Frans It was Decalin, I just did a quick search and found a pretty good article you may want to read, it has the fuel tester on the bottom with the name of the place that sells it, I don't know if they still do.: http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/autogas/articles/1Autogas%20vs%20Avgas.pdf Fresh mogas can have a lot of water already attached to the alcohol that you will never see or know about until you fly in thinner and colder air. I did quite a bit of fooling with my fuel system in controlled conditions and was very surprised at all the bubbling going on, it was at sea level, room temp and 100LL, see: http://contrails.free.fr/engine_914_fuel_syst_test_en.php Here's some information about my 914 fuel system: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28612 Download and read about the 914 fuelpump pre filter. Did you check the vent for your fuel tank making sure no nasty bug clogged it up on you? Ron P. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:13 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 07/31/2012 12:41 PM, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > It was Decalin, I just did a quick search and found a pretty good > article you may want to read, Good article indeed! > http://contrails.free.fr/engine_914_fuel_syst_test_en.php This web page mentions "air" in the filters, which should be "fuel vapor". This is caused by the pressure drop in the fuel filters due to the flow resistance. The fuel pumps not only increase the fuel pressure at the output, they also decrease the fuel pressure at the inlet. As we all (should) know, lower pressure lowers the boiling point. So, to get rid of the bubbles, you have to prevent the pressure drop in the fuel filter and/or pump inlet. One way of achieving this is to install a pre-pump directly at one of the tank outlets. I found some interesting pumps at ebay for a low cost (35$). They have no diaphragms or other rubber or wearable parts but just a piston pulled by a magnetic coil. If the pump stalls it is just a go-through. Alternatively one can make a bypass with a check valve. The pumps deliver 5 GPH, enough for a Rotax, at a pressure of 2 PSI. The pressure is enough to cancel out the pressure drop of the filters, valves and hoses and pump inlet, and thus prevent the formation of bubbles (or vapor lock in more severe cases). Frans ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:34 AM PST US From: Bill Henderson Subject: Europa-List: door weather seals Just wonder if anyone has a source in the US for weather stripping for the doors. Still not finish building and the weather stripping has started to come apart. Thanks, Bill A010 Monowheel Classic Rotax 912S ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? From: Paul McAllister Hi All, I don't know if this helps or not, but in 1000 hours of operation I have never experienced a vapor lock like Frans has described using Mo Gas. I have operated my aircraft on days that are 35c ~ 40c, which have included long taxi runs. My experience may not translate because most of my take off and landings are at around 1000' MSL. On hot days this equates to about 3000' density altitude. What I have seen is the engine will not start on a hot day after sitting for a while and what I do in this situation is to turn the fuel pumps off, start the engine and then turn the pumps on. I have a single gascolator, with dual pumps + check valves in parallel and this sits under the baggage bay. I also have a UMA differential fuel pressure sensor. Paul On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 07/31/2012 12:41 PM, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > > > It was Decalin, I just did a quick search and found a pretty good > > article you may want to read, > > Good article indeed! > > > http://contrails.free.fr/engine_914_fuel_syst_test_en.php > > This web page mentions "air" in the filters, which should be "fuel > vapor". This is caused by the pressure drop in the fuel filters due to > the flow resistance. The fuel pumps not only increase the fuel pressure > at the output, they also decrease the fuel pressure at the inlet. > As we all (should) know, lower pressure lowers the boiling point. > > So, to get rid of the bubbles, you have to prevent the pressure drop in > the fuel filter and/or pump inlet. > > One way of achieving this is to install a pre-pump directly at one of > the tank outlets. > > I found some interesting pumps at ebay for a low cost (35$). They have > no diaphragms or other rubber or wearable parts but just a piston pulled > by a magnetic coil. If the pump stalls it is just a go-through. > Alternatively one can make a bypass with a check valve. The pumps > deliver 5 GPH, enough for a Rotax, at a pressure of 2 PSI. The pressure > is enough to cancel out the pressure drop of the filters, valves and > hoses and pump inlet, and thus prevent the formation of bubbles (or > vapor lock in more severe cases). > > Frans > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:08 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Proposal fuel system enhancement for mogas Ok everyone, After my recent problems with mogas I digged into this subject and it looks like that with some minor changes the Rotax 914 fuel system can be made more suitable for mogas. There are two problems with the use of mogas concerning the Rotax 914: 1) Vapor pressure. The boiling point of mogas is often lower than that of avgas. With higher temperatures and lower pressures (altitude) the fuel vaporizes inside the fuel system. It starts with small bubbles, but eventually it leads to a complete stoppage of the fuel flow (vapor lock). 2) Ethanol. Ethanol in the fuel can bind water and keep it in suspension. At lower temperatures (like after climbing to altitude) the water can precipitate out of the fuel. Eventually this can lead to freezing or other water related problems. For both problems there are solutions: 1) In the 914, the fuel system is pressurised, and there is a high return flow of fuel. The pumps are located outside the engine bay. Consequently, there is almost no heating of the fuel, and bubbles are transferred back to the fuel tank because of the return flow and pressure regulator. There is one weak point, and that is the fuel pump inlet. The suction of the fuel pump causes a pressure drop in the inlet, especially if the inlet system contains a fuel filter. The drop of pressure invites the fuel to vaporize instantly. Once vaporized, it will not easily revert back to a liquid state, even if the pressure is increased again. In cars, to minimeze vapor lock problems, fuel pumps are often located inside the tank, to eliminate/minimize the suction (low pressure) area. In the 914, I think a good solution would be to install a high flow/low pressure pump at the main tank outlet, combined with a bypass check valve. Such a pump will eliminate the flow resistance of the fuel valve, the filters, the hoses, the various joints, and thus eliminate the low pressure area. If the pressure in the entire fuel system is kept higher than in the tank, the fuel will not vaporize. Should the pump fail, the bypass check valve will allow the system to operate as before. I found this on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/320954771747 "THIS PUMP IS A FREE FLOW the solenoid pump uses a piston actuated by an electromagnetic coil to generate fuel pressure and flow. By using only short pulses of electricity, the solenoid pump is very energy-efficient. It is also long-lasting, with no internal rubber parts or bellows to wear out." 2) The precipitation of water out of the fuel can be prevented by keeping the fuel on its initial temperature. If, before the flight, no water can be found at the bottom of the tank, no water will form if the fuel is kept at the same temperature. For the Rotax 914, the fuel return line flows at least 30 liters per hour. Heating this fuel should be sufficient to prevent the fuel from cooling down at altitude, especially if the return line enters the tank at the bottom. The easiest way is to install an electrical fuel heater with thermostat as often found on diesel engines. Another way would be to use the coolant as a heat source, via a thermostatic valve and heat exchanger. Heating the fuel may look a contradiction to 1) where we want to prevent vapor lock. However if the fuel is not heated but merely kept on the take off temperature, vapor lock should not be an issue. It the fuel temperature was good enough for a full power take off, it certainly is enough for maintaining cruise power. On Ebay I found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120928913405 Any comments or further ideas on this subject? Frans ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:32 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Hi Paul, > I don't know if this helps or not, but in 1000 hours of operation I have > never experienced a vapor lock like Frans has described using Mo Gas. I > have operated my aircraft on days that are 35c ~ 40c, which have > included long taxi runs. My experience may not translate because most > of my take off and landings are at around 1000' MSL. On hot days this > equates to about 3000' density altitude. This field was on about 4000' MSL... I took off quite a few times from this field before, using Mogas. Never had any problems until the last time. What was/might be different than previous times: I refueled in the morning but took off in the afternoon. I had a black carpet on the bagage floor instead of white. Maybe the fuel itself (although purchased at the same store) might have had a different formula. Maybe the fuel filter has a bit more resistance than previous times (maybe a bit more clogged?). There are many variables. Anyway, this event shows that it CAN happen, despite previous positive experiences, for whatever reason. The engine ran fine after a night waiting, so even if there is a technical problem (partially clogged filter) it might wait to show up until a hot and high airfield (which tend to be the most unforgiving fields for technical problems). I think with a few minor improvements the fuel system can be made more mogas proof. See my other posting. > What I have seen is the engine will not start on a hot day after sitting > for a while and what I do in this situation is to turn the fuel pumps > off, start the engine and then turn the pumps on. I now always switch the fuel pump off during the turbo cool down period, and let the engine idle until the carbs are drawn empty (this usually takes about 1 minute). The starting problems are gone, and I think the carbs will stay cleaner (the fuel inside the bowls will otherwise vaporize anyway, but then leave some solid residue behind). Frans ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Frans The "air" bubbles were indeed vaporizing 100LL. I did introduce air, by ever so slightly pushing on the quick drains mounted on the bottom of either Andair 375, WOW foam city, that was air introduction. I am very concerned when I see drain valves seeping on Europas, especially 914s. The pre-pump you are talking about would help the bubbling a little, but don't think it's needed. I tested the ability to prime with various heads and also introducing intake restriction, and was very satisfied with the results. If you are hell bent on a pre-pump, I actually have one that would work. I was planning on using it to transfer fuel. I had a fleet of 3 Volvo 740 Turbo Station Wagons (two 1992 and one 1990), I finally switched them out a few years ago. The main Bosch fuel pump would consistently fail between ~ 85 and 125K. I always stocked one. I also stocked a pre-pump that lives in the fuel tank. It's a small thing about the size of the 914 pump (I just weighed it and it's 242 grams) that is very low pressure and lots of volume taking a 12 volt input. I always checked the output of this pump when changing the main pump or filter and never had a failure. I'm not complaining because it meant dropping the fuel tank. Anyway if you look up 1992 Volvo 740 turbo with a 2.5 liter turbo engine, then the in fuel tank pre-pump (not exactly sure what they call it) it could be a good choice. It has a slight necked down area on the OD of the the intake side of the outer case with an OD of 1.430" x .675" long, nice and smooth and looks to be very robust. If you wanted to use it inline, that would be a good area to put a piece of rubber coupler over with a clamp, then the other side could have an adapter. The output side has a.312" (5/16") hose barb. The main pump although I have tried aftermarket once when I was in a pinch, it did not fit perfectly and the wiring connections were not the same, so I stuck with the Bosch. I saw the pre-pump on special once so I bought one just in case. I suspect the one I have is aftermarket? It's in a clear plastic bag that's staples closed, on the bag (Bosch always comes in a nice graphics box and it says Bosch everywhere): 3517845 F/Pump in tank 700 Turbo 85 - 95 You may be able to cross the numbers on the pump (no Mfg. name I can see): 6443270(V3517845) then under that number : C3435-2 Just a quick note, both pumps ran off of a fuel pump relay, after between ~ 85K and ~ 125K they too would fail. What would happen is because solder is such a bad conductor (solder is between ~ 4 and 5% the conductivity of annealed copper 110 that has 100% conductivity) the joint that carried the high current would fracture fail from the long period cycling between cold and hot. You would get the tell tale ring that many suspect is a "cold solder joint" but in fact a fractured solder joint. Anyway the relays were cheap enough, but not cheap enough for my liking, so I kept a spare in every car (only takes a few minutes to change) and would re-solder them every few years (all 3 at once). They came apart really easily and the contacts still looked fine so I just kept on re-soldering. I actually solder sucked out the solder that fractured, and re-flowed with model aeroplane racing solder, what racing solder is, it's a fairly low temp solder with some silver in it, so I would re-solder and suck a few times to get as much new in the joint, it holds up a little better than 63-37 or 60-40. Again getting off track, it was not possible on this joint, but if there is enough tail on whatever it is you are re-soldering to a board that failed from fracturing, if you can make a wrap of wire around the tail and solder the two ends of that wire to another part of the copper land, you will greatly reduce the chance of failure later on. On many an occasion if I had a troublesome joint, I would purchase a new component, not because the component failed, but for it's longer tail and do whatever to make more solder surface area of solder that is conducting that would prevent a lot of heating and cure the malady, or at least greatly increase the time between failures. Anyway if you do go to two pre-pumps (or even one) be cognizant that two pumps in parallel draws enough amps that over time any solder joint that may flow electrons to the two pumps could in fact be a failure point. The first time it happened to me it was a drive you crazy malady to figure. First time, didn't hear the pump working with a stuck car. Come back and it runs fine? OK replace the pump and all is well, for a week or two, then the same thing, get stuck, come back and all is well. Depending on heating and cooling the fool joint would make or break. Hard to troubleshoot, easy to fix once you know. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:23 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Hi Ron, > The pre-pump you are talking about would help the bubbling a little, but > don't think it's needed. Think about the bubbles again. Why are they there? They are not in the tank, right? So somewhere down the line the fuel starts vaporizing. Why is that, and how can you prevent that? This is where the pre-pump comes in. No pressure drop = no bubbles. No bubbles = no vapour lock. > If you are hell bent on a pre-pump, I actually have one that would work. It sounds interesting. I have to measure to see if it can be made to fit the tank outlet. Also I would prefer a pump that is "open" if switched off. This way I can only activate it when using mogas, hot and/or high, during take off. Or I have to use an external bypass with check valve, but for an in-tank pump this is complicated. I will come back to this once I have made up my mind, will let you know. > Just a quick note, both pumps ran off of a fuel pump relay, after > between ~ 85K and ~ 125K they too would fail. What would happen is Fun isn't it, these modern cars? My daily driver is a 1972 Mercedes 300 SEL (V8, running on propane, all options) and it just keeps going, almost no maintenance. :-) Imagine the looks of people every time I use it to tow the Europa back and forth to the airport. Have been photographed a lot of times. ;-) > Anyway if you do go to two pre-pumps (or even one) be cognizant that two > pumps in parallel draws enough amps that over time any solder joint that > may flow electrons to the two pumps could in fact be a failure point. This is why I want to make the pre-pump optional and give it its own wiring. Also, this way I can check to see before startup that it is working, to use it to "prime" the fuel system and get confirmation on the gauge that it is developing some pressure. > The first time it happened to me it was a drive you crazy malady to > figure. First time, didn't hear the pump working with a stuck car. Come > back and it runs fine? OK replace the pump and all is well, for a week > or two, then the same thing, get stuck, come back and all is well. > Depending on heating and cooling the fool joint would make or break. I had the same thing with the EFI of my car (yes, the good old Merc. Well, after 40 years of service I can accept this). Frans ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:50 AM PST US From: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I have the same system Paul describes. I have not experienced the problem Fra ns had. But I operate consistently at far higher density altitudes and temps than described. Frans, perhaps you are on to something regarding the filters before the pump s causing vaporization of the auto fuel at high density altitude/temp, and p erhaps that is the part of the system that is need of redesign. I wonder if t rying larger filters and fuel lines would mean less resistance and therefor n o vaporization? Kevin PS- it was great to see few Europa drivers at Oshkosh! On Jul 31, 2012, at 5:51 AM, Paul McAllister wr ote: > Hi All, > > I don't know if this helps or not, but in 1000 hours of operation I have n ever experienced a vapor lock like Frans has described using Mo Gas. I have o perated my aircraft on days that are 35c ~ 40c, which have included long tax i runs. My experience may not translate because most of my take off and lan dings are at around 1000' MSL. On hot days this equates to about 3000' den sity altitude. > > What I have seen is the engine will not start on a hot day after sitting f or a while and what I do in this situation is to turn the fuel pumps off, st art the engine and then turn the pumps on. > > I have a single gascolator, with dual pumps + check valves in parallel and this sits under the baggage bay. I also have a UMA differential fuel pressu re sensor. > > Paul > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Frans Veldman wr ote: > > On 07/31/2012 12:41 PM, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > > > It was Decalin, I just did a quick search and found a pretty good > > article you may want to read, > > Good article indeed! > > > http://contrails.free.fr/engine_914_fuel_syst_test_en.php > > This web page mentions "air" in the filters, which should be "fuel > vapor". This is caused by the pressure drop in the fuel filters due to > the flow resistance. The fuel pumps not only increase the fuel pressure > at the output, they also decrease the fuel pressure at the inlet. > As we all (should) know, lower pressure lowers the boiling point. > > So, to get rid of the bubbles, you have to prevent the pressure drop in > the fuel filter and/or pump inlet. > > One way of achieving this is to install a pre-pump directly at one of > the tank outlets. > > I found some interesting pumps at ebay for a low cost (35$). They have > no diaphragms or other rubber or wearable parts but just a piston pulled > by a magnetic coil. If the pump stalls it is just a go-through. > Alternatively one can make a bypass with a check valve. The pumps > deliver 5 GPH, enough for a Rotax, at a pressure of 2 PSI. The pressure > is enough to cancel out the pressure drop of the filters, valves and > hoses and pump inlet, and thus prevent the formation of bubbles (or > vapor lock in more severe cases). > > Frans > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:07 AM PST US From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Hi Frans, We had a problem with vapor lock in our XS mono-wheel with 912S, which caused the engine to run rough. I happened several times, only in the winter months. This happened several times on take off after a cold start of the engine, at or near sea level. We use auto fuel, and here in the US, they put more volatiles in the fuel in the cold months to help starting. It seemed to create a bubble of vapor at or near the carbs that would slowly (tens of minutes) go away. On one occasion I was doing some glide tests (at about 8000 feet) with the engine shut down, when I restarted the engine it ran rough, I turned on the electric boost pump and it killed the engine completely. What I think happened is the extra boost 'blew' the entire bubble into the carbs all at once and killed the engine. I restarted the engine and it ran better in a few minutes. We put aluminum coated insulation around the float bowls and nearby lines and never had the problem again. Regards, Terry Seaver A135 XS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 8:06 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Jeff, > My own experience with vapor lock was nerve wracking. After fighting it > for months, I finally figured it out. The carb bowls were getting hot. This is not the problem I have. The engine was still relatively cold, and I saw the fuel pressure drop. The fuel pressure is measured before the carbs. A vapor lock inside the carbs doesn't result in a pressure drop before the carbs. I also got some private mails, but not everyone seems to know that I have a Rotax 914. The 914 has two electrical pumps, mounted under the bagage bay. If there is a fuel pressure drop, something is wrong outside of the engine bay (unless it is the fuel pressure regulator itself). I appreciate your advice, but I don't think it applies to my ship. It can't have been the carbs. Frans ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:47 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Frans, In the tank bottom there are no bubbles at the temperature in question (otherwise it would be boiling). Fuel pressure here is atmospheric pressure plus static pressure (negligible) from the fuel column above. At the fuel pump inlet, suction means lower pressure than in the tank, and here you could get bubbles if the fuel temperature is not too far from the phase shift point liquid-to-vapour, especially as the filter is upstream of the pump (between the tank and the pump) since the filter restricts the flow a little. If the fuel pressure after the pump is equal to or higher than the pressure in the bottom of the tank, and there is no heating of the fuel on its way so far, the bubbles will disappear. The transition from liquid to vapour or from vapour to liquid is virtually instantaneous. This phase shift follows a certain temperature/pressure curve - there is no hysteresis (no difference going from liquid to vapour, compared to from vapour to liquid). With the pressure you state in one of your postings, meaning considerably higher pressure after the pump than at the bottom of the tank, I cannot see how a gas bubble created due to suction can "survive" the passage through the pump, unless heated up on its way through the pump/hose. My posting earlier today described the movement of a vapour bubble that exists downstream of (after) the pump. If the heat downstream is such that gas bubbles will form despite the relatively high pump pressure, then gas bubbles will of course reach the carbs unless vented back through the return line. Given the composition/characteristic of the fuel on board and given the fuel pressure, the only variable we can do anything with is the fuel temperature. In addition to fire sleeves on all engine compartment fuel and oil hoses and good shielding from direct exhaust pipe heat, I also use heat protection sleeves (silvery outer layer over insulation layer) placed outside the fire sleeve forward of the fire wall. Also T and X metal joints are insulated. Aft of the fire wall I have used the heat sleeve several places as wear protection, but it is so lightweight that one may use it all over. You can buy these at auto supply stores. Given a choice of fuel, Avgas in hot weather/high altitude seems to be the best option to avoid vapour lock, as also confirmed by the very interesting posting today regarding LAA's restriction on Mogas use. Replacing engine oil and filter more frequently is an inexpensive consequence of using Avgas. And never use Mogas purchased in the winter during the warmer period of the year. Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:21 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: cameras and mounting From: "graeme bird" Any advice on video or time lapse camera types and mounting on the plane. The Go Pro looks popular and good but far from aerodynamic in shape although it could go in front of the mono outrigger. Taking pictures from the cockpit is frustrating due to the perspex. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379718#379718 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:11 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: cameras and mounting Graeme- John Lawton built a streamlined case and mouted a time lapse on top of his rudder.=C2- The pictures weren't good, they were SPECTACULAR!=C2- You m ay want to e-mail him for details.=C2- He does not follow Matrinics. Jim Puglise ----- Original Message ----- From: "graeme bird" Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:13:45 PM Subject: Europa-List: cameras and mounting Any advice on video or time lapse camera types and mounting on the plane. T he Go Pro looks popular and good but far from aerodynamic in shape although it could go in front of the mono outrigger. Taking pictures from the cockp it is frustrating due to the perspex. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W Newby: 35 hours =C2- g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379718#379718 =========== =========== MS - =========== e - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:52 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Svein, > If the fuel pressure after the pump is equal to or higher than the > pressure in the bottom of the tank, and there is no heating of the fuel > on its way so far, the bubbles will disappear. The transition from > liquid to vapour or from vapour to liquid is virtually instantaneous. I thought (but I'm in no way an expert) that for a fluid to boil you need some contamination which acts as some sort of trigger. Just like bubbles in a glass of cola seem to form at certain spots. Once just a bit of vapour has accumulated, other molecules hook in and the bubble keeps growing. So if the fuel temp is on the edge, once vapour bubbles exist it is easier for other molecules to take the same route. On the other hand, I see what you are saying. If there is no hysteresis then bubbles should disappear under pressure. Then again, it would be impossible to get vapor lock unless you heat the fuel. (Which is what you are saying). > My posting earlier today described the movement of a vapour bubble that > exists downstream of (after) the pump. Ok, I believe you. Then the problem would only be at the pump inlet and not beyond. Still, the pump would then turn into a void. With a bubble inside the pump the pump can not maintain pressure, so the transition from gas to fluid doesn't take place. > Given the composition/characteristic of the fuel on board and given the > fuel pressure, the only variable we can do anything with is the *fuel > temperature*. The engine was just started. The oil temp was about 60 degrees. We where anxious to take off because of the heat in the cockpit. There was no heat anywhere in the fuel system except for heat created by the sun. Again, this is a 914 with a very high fuel return flow. Any heat somewhere in the system will be carried away quickly. The only thing remaining is the fuel pressure drop inside the suction area, i.e. the fuel filters. > In addition to fire sleeves on all engine compartment fuel and oil hoses > and good shielding from direct exhaust pipe heat, I also use heat > protection sleeves (silvery outer layer over insulation layer) placed > outside the fire sleeve forward of the fire wall. I have this too. Keep in mind that the 914 has no mechanical fuel pump. The fuel enters the engine compartment to the airbox where the pressure regulator is, and then returns back to the firewall. It is a very short route, and fuel is flowing there with a rate of 1 liter per minute. Vapor lock between the regulator and carbs is of no consequence, as the needle valves of the carb just let any gaseous fuel through until some fluid matter raises the floats. > Given a choice of fuel, Avgas in hot weather/high altitude seems to be > the best option to avoid vapour lock, as also confirmed by the very > interesting posting today regarding LAAs restriction on Mogas use. > Replacing engine oil and filter more frequently is an inexpensive > consequence of using Avgas. Despite changing the oil and filter, the engine contaminates nevertheless. There are some interesting documents with pictures on the internet from the British Rotax dealer. Avgas is just bad for the Rotax. And it is more expensive. Enough reasons to investigate how we can operate more reliably on mogas. Thanks for sharing your insight. I guess it is time to wait for an exceptional hot day, pour some mogas in the poor thing, switch on the electric pumps, and then make some pictures at various places in the fuel system about what is travelling through the fuel lines. With our insights combined we would see a lot of bubbles in the fuel pump inlet, and less (or none) after the fuel pump. Frans ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:09 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 07/31/2012 07:50 PM, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: > I have the same system Paul describes. I have not experienced the > problem Frans had. But I operate consistently at far higher density > altitudes and temps than described. This is interesting. I think I have the same system as Paul and you (With the Andair gascolator) except that I have an additional disposabel filter for the secondary fuel pump. We are talking here about the series configuration, right? > Frans, perhaps you are on to something regarding the filters before the > pumps causing vaporization of the auto fuel at high density > altitude/temp, and perhaps that is the part of the system that is need > of redesign. Well, it could be that the fuel filters are contaminated (although I cleaned/replaced them just 40 hours ago) causing enough restriction in harsh conditions but not enough to cause a fuel pressure drop at lower temps/altitudes. Or I just had a bad batch of fuel. I will check the system thoroughly and see if I can find any abnormalities. Frans ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:19 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Frans=0Aif the fuel boils in the carb bowls where does the vapour go? On a 912 it goes into the inlet manifold anyway so will cause rich mixture.=0AAn d displace some air. In the 914 it will be at manifold pressure so may forc e its way into the needle jet and again cause rich mixture.=0AGraham=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0A From: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 31 July 2012, 21 :47=0ASubject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why?=0A =0A--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman =0A=0ASvein,=0A =0A> If the fuel pressure after the pump is equal to or higher than the=0A> pressure in the bottom of the tank, and there is no heating of the fuel=0A > on its way so far, the bubbles will disappear.=C2- The transition from =0A> liquid to vapour or from vapour to liquid is virtually instantaneous. =0A=0AI thought (but I'm in no way an expert) that for a fluid to boil you =0Aneed some contamination which acts as some sort of trigger. Just like=0A bubbles in a glass of cola seem to form at certain spots. Once just a=0Abit of vapour has accumulated, other molecules hook in and the bubble=0Akeeps growing.=0ASo if the fuel temp is on the edge, once vapour bubbles exist it is=0Aeasier for other molecules to take the same route.=0A=0AOn the other hand, I see what you are saying. If there is no hysteresis=0Athen bubbles s hould disappear under pressure. Then again, it would be=0Aimpossible to get vapor lock unless you heat the fuel. (Which is what=0Ayou are saying).=0A =0A> My posting earlier today described the movement of a vapour bubble tha t=0A> exists downstream of (after) the pump.=0A=0AOk, I believe you. Then t he problem would only be at the pump inlet and=0Anot beyond. Still, the pum p would then turn into a void. With a bubble=0Ainside the pump the pump can not maintain pressure, so the transition=0Afrom gas to fluid doesn't take place.=0A=0A> Given the composition/characteristic of the fuel on board and given the=0A> fuel pressure, the only variable we can do anything with is the *fuel=0A> temperature*. =0A=0AThe engine was just started. The oil temp was about 60 degrees. We where=0Aanxious to take off because of the heat i n the cockpit. There was no=0Aheat anywhere in the fuel system except for h eat created by the sun.=0AAgain, this is a 914 with a very high fuel return flow. Any heat=0Asomewhere in the system will be carried away quickly.=0AT he only thing remaining is the fuel pressure drop inside the suction=0Aarea , i.e. the fuel filters.=0A=0A> In addition to fire sleeves on all engine c ompartment fuel and oil hoses=0A> and good shielding from direct exhaust pi pe heat, I also use heat=0A> protection sleeves (silvery outer layer over i nsulation layer) placed=0A> outside the fire sleeve forward of the fire wal l.=0A=0AI have this too. Keep in mind that the 914 has no mechanical fuel p ump.=0AThe fuel enters the engine compartment to the airbox where the press ure=0Aregulator is, and then returns back to the firewall. It is a very sho rt=0Aroute, and fuel is flowing there with a rate of 1 liter per minute.=0A Vapor lock between the regulator and carbs is of no consequence, as the=0An eedle valves of the carb just let any gaseous fuel through until some=0Aflu id matter raises the floats.=0A=0A> Given a choice of fuel, Avgas in hot we ather/high altitude seems to be=0A> the best option to avoid vapour lock, a s also confirmed by the very=0A> interesting posting today regarding LAA =99s restriction on Mogas use. =0A> Replacing engine oil and filter more frequently is an inexpensive=0A> consequence of using Avgas.=0A=0ADespite changing the oil and filter, the engine contaminates=0Anevertheless. There are some interesting documents with pictures on the=0Ainternet from the Bri tish Rotax dealer. Avgas is just bad for the Rotax.=0AAnd it is more expens ive. Enough reasons to investigate how we can=0Aoperate more reliably on mo gas.=0A=0AThanks for sharing your insight.=0A=0AI guess it is time to wait for an exceptional hot day, pour some mogas=0Ain the poor thing, switch on the electric pumps, and then make some=0Apictures at various places in the fuel system about what is travelling=0Athrough the fuel lines. With our ins ights combined we would see a lot of=0Abubbles in the fuel pump inlet, and =========================0A =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 =================== ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: cameras and mounting From: Robert Borger Graeme, FWIW, I acquired a Go Pro Hero2. I acquired this primarily to use on a Little Toot Sport Biplane not the Europa. But I'm trying to come up with a means to use in the Europa as well. Pros: It's very nice. Takes excellent video/pictures (up to 1080P video or 10MP pics). Is easy to use (once you rtfm). Has tons of accessories to do all kinds of good stuff. Has lots of settings for the specific application you want to do. All kinds of mounts for darn near anything. Comes with an environmental case impervious to just about anything short of gun fire. Other cases for other applications are available. Free S/W for Mac or PC. Extremely easy to download video/pics on my Mac. Can't speak to PC but probably as easy. Cons: It's as aerodynamic a (small) brick and would be a B**** to mount on the exterior of a Europa. You'll need extra batteries for anything over a couple hours. Each hour of operation requires about an hour of recharge. Recharge is only done with the battery in the camera via USB connection. No external battery recharger available. So you can't recharge one battery while using a 2nd battery in the camera. Maybe with some effort you could gin-up a mount for in front of the outrigger/outer flap bracket. There's a remote control package (US$100) that might work to operate it out there. If you are still under construction and have not put the tip of the tail on, you might do something with that. Maybe in a wing tip? There's a suction mount and/or various sticky mounts you might use inside the windscreen. A couple different head mounts are available. More thought needed... If it were only more aero! A couple pics: The Motorsport configuration comes with all this: Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jul 31, 2012, at 2:13 PM, graeme bird wrote: Any advice on video or time lapse camera types and mounting on the plane. The Go Pro looks popular and good but far from aerodynamic in shape although it could go in front of the mono outrigger. Taking pictures from the cockpit is frustrating due to the perspex. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: cameras and mounting From: "pestar" I have been looking for a camera for my MCR-4S and have been looking at the Go-Pro but I am tending towards the Replay XD1080 www.replayxd.com/cameras/replay-xd1080-camera/ for the same reason as most. Its shape is a lot more conducive to fitting inside an aircraft and it has the ability to be remotely controlled by a panel mounted hardware start stop kit that also has a 3.5mm audio input allowing my headset audio to be incorporated into the video. As I have a MGL Voyager G2 I am looking at a HDMI -> Video converter and feeding the video into the back of my Voyager and Voila I have a monitor on my EFIS of my camera. The Voyager takes up to 4 video inputs. Trust this helps. Cheers Peter -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379728#379728 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:00 PM PST US From: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I have an Andair mini gascolator followed by a Y splitting to Andair check valves before the pumps in parallel. I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada) at the Rotax display in Oshkosh. He recently purchased a 914 powered Europa to use as a test vehicle for the 912iS. We were talking about fuel system design, how the new 912iS has two electric pumps like the 914 except higher pressure for the fuel injection. He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. I think that's the same thing, cavitation vs vapor lock? So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean. I do not like the fact that I have a single point of failure in one gascolator. But if I redesign, I am going to go with less restriction, larger diameter tubing. Kevin On Jul 31, 2012, at 1:57 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 07/31/2012 07:50 PM, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: >> I have the same system Paul describes. I have not experienced the >> problem Frans had. But I operate consistently at far higher density >> altitudes and temps than described. > > This is interesting. I think I have the same system as Paul and you > (With the Andair gascolator) except that I have an additional disposabel > filter for the secondary fuel pump. We are talking here about the series > configuration, right? > >> Frans, perhaps you are on to something regarding the filters before the >> pumps causing vaporization of the auto fuel at high density >> altitude/temp, and perhaps that is the part of the system that is need >> of redesign. > > Well, it could be that the fuel filters are contaminated (although I > cleaned/replaced them just 40 hours ago) causing enough restriction in > harsh conditions but not enough to cause a fuel pressure drop at lower > temps/altitudes. Or I just had a bad batch of fuel. > > I will check the system thoroughly and see if I can find any abnormalities. > > Frans > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:55 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: RE: Europa-List: cameras and mounting http://www.vio-pov.com/ The VIP pov camera is ideally suited to mounting anywhere on the airframe - the camera unit is small and with an extension lead can be mounted on the wingtips if required. The angle of view is 140 degrees so easy to fit the whole cockpit into frame. Only problem I have found is that any camera mounted in the cockpit needs substantial anti vibration mounting. Alternately cameras with built in image stabilisation work well though not as compact. I am currently experimenting with a gel type mount which will hopefully dampen out the worst of any vibrations. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird Sent: 31 July 2012 20:14 Subject: Europa-List: cameras and mounting Any advice on video or time lapse camera types and mounting on the plane. The Go Pro looks popular and good but far from aerodynamic in shape although it could go in front of the mono outrigger. Taking pictures from the cockpit is frustrating due to the perspex. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379718#379718 _______________________________________ No infections found in this incoming message Scanned by iolo System ShieldR http://www.iolo.com _______________________________________ No infections found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo System Shield http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? From: Paul McAllister Frans, Just to clarify. I have the original pump configuration, two pumps in parallel. I have an Andair check valve in series with each pump. Several years after I built my airplane the recommendation was to put the pumps in series. I did quite a bit of research and I could not come up with a compelling reason to change something that wasn't broken. With that said, I doubt if the series pump configuration is contributing to your issue. I have a single gascolator on the inlet side and nothing else. Like Kevin I don't particularly care for a single point of failure, however it would difficult to install a second gascolator now. If I were to do it over again I would have a gascolator for each pump. Regards, Paul On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:27 PM, wrote: > > I have an Andair mini gascolator followed by a Y splitting to Andair check > valves before the pumps in parallel. > > I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada) at the Rotax display > in Oshkosh. He recently purchased a 914 powered Europa to use as a test > vehicle for the 912iS. We were talking about fuel system design, how the > new 912iS has two electric pumps like the 914 except higher pressure for > the fuel injection. He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or > tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. > I think that's the same thing, cavitation vs vapor lock? So maybe your > fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in > the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, > even if they are clean. > I do not like the fact that I have a single point of failure in one > gascolator. But if I redesign, I am going to go with less restriction, > larger diameter tubing. > Kevin > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:43 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Proposal fuel system enhancement for mogas From: "jonathanmilbank" An apposite saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it !" The UK CAA advice for use of mogas has worked very well for me for more than a decade: 1) Don't fly above 6000 ft p.a. with mogas 2) Don't fly if the temperature of fuel inside the tank exceeds 20C 3) Don't use mogas if alcohol can be detected in it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379735#379735 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:03 PM PST US From: Martin Tuck Subject: Re: Europa-List: cameras and mounting I like the look of the Drift HD camera. It has a small LCD screen which will allow you to compose your shot and a rotatable lens which allows you to straighten the picture even if mounted at an angle. Even has a remote which would allow you to turn it on and off even when mounted externally. www.Driftinnovation.com/camera/drift-hd/ Martin Tuck Europa N152MT Wichita, Kansas On 7/31/2012 4:48 PM, Carl Pattinson wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > http://www.vio-pov.com/ > > The VIP pov camera is ideally suited to mounting anywhere on the airframe - > the camera unit is small and with an extension lead can be mounted on the > wingtips if required. The angle of view is 140 degrees so easy to fit the > whole cockpit into frame. > > Only problem I have found is that any camera mounted in the cockpit needs > substantial anti vibration mounting. Alternately cameras with built in image > stabilisation work well though not as compact. > > I am currently experimenting with a gel type mount which will hopefully > dampen out the worst of any vibrations. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird > Sent: 31 July 2012 20:14 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: cameras and mounting > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" > > Any advice on video or time lapse camera types and mounting on the plane. > The Go Pro looks popular and good but far from aerodynamic in shape although > it could go in front of the mono outrigger. Taking pictures from the cockpit > is frustrating due to the perspex. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W > Newby: 35 hours > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379718#379718 > > > _______________________________________ > No infections found in this incoming message Scanned by iolo System ShieldR > http://www.iolo.com > > > _______________________________________ > No infections found in this outgoing message > Scanned by iolo System Shield > http://www.iolo.com > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:26 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vapour lock? Why? From: "h&jeuropa" Hi Frans, We have the same system as you have, the series pumps with check valves as specified by Rotax. We feed one pump from a Andar gasolator and the other thru a Purolator filter, the one Europa supplied. Never a problem like you describe in 400 hours. This summer we have been operating a lot at density altitudes of 12,000 to 18,000 ft using MOGAS with no problem. Did a trip to Colorado in June and again no problem with MOGAS at 16,000 ft density altitude. In fact, there is a flight school in Colorado Springs with Flight Design aircraft (912ULS) using exclusively MOGAS. Colorado Springs is 6000 ft MSL. So we're pretty confident the problem is not MOGAS. Jim & Heather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379746#379746 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:33 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vapour lock? Why? From: "h&jeuropa" Frans, Forgot to mention, you talk of differential fuel pressure of 6 psi. Rotax specifies differential fuel pressure to be 3.63 psi nominal, 5.08 psi max and 2.18 psi min. It's easy to adjust the fuel pressure regulator using a mechanical gauge. Don't know if this has any bearing on your situation. Jim & Heather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379748#379748 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:59 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: cameras and mounting Just a clarification, there is a "battery backpack" which comes with a larg er back cover, which doubles the battery life, and the backpack can also be u sed as a charger separate from the camera. I just bought one and it works g reat. As you said, there are a crazy number of accessories, one of which is also t he wifi backpack, allowing one to control multiple remote gopro cameras from the cockpit. The vid and picture quality of the hero2 is the best out there for these typ es of cameras. No image stabilization however. Cheers, Pete On Jul 31, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > Graeme, > > FWIW, I acquired a Go Pro Hero2. I acquired this primarily to use on a Li ttle Toot Sport Biplane not the Europa. But I'm trying to come up with a me ans to use in the Europa as well. > > Pros: It's very nice. Takes excellent video/pictures (up to 1080P video o r 10MP pics). Is easy to use (once you rtfm). Has tons of accessories to d o all kinds of good stuff. Has lots of settings for the specific applicatio n you want to do. All kinds of mounts for darn near anything. Comes with a n environmental case impervious to just about anything short of gun fire. O ther cases for other applications are available. Free S/W for Mac or PC. E xtremely easy to download video/pics on my Mac. Can't speak to PC but proba bly as easy. > > Cons: It's as aerodynamic a (small) brick and would be a B**** to mount on the exterior of a Europa. You'll need extra batteries for anything over a c ouple hours. Each hour of operation requires about an hour of recharge. Re charge is only done with the battery in the camera via USB connection. No e xternal battery recharger available. So you can't recharge one battery whil e using a 2nd battery in the camera. > > Maybe with some effort you could gin-up a mount for in front of the outrig ger/outer flap bracket. There's a remote control package (US$100) that migh t work to operate it out there. If you are still under construction and hav e not put the tip of the tail on, you might do something with that. Maybe i n a wing tip? There's a suction mount and/or various sticky mounts you migh t use inside the windscreen. A couple different head mounts are available. More thought needed... > > If it were only more aero! > > A couple pics: > > > > > > The Motorsport configuration comes with all this: > > > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com > > On Jul 31, 2012, at 2:13 PM, graeme bird wrote: > > > Any advice on video or time lapse camera types and mounting on the plane. T he Go Pro looks popular and good but far from aerodynamic in shape although i t could go in front of the mono outrigger. Taking pictures from the cockpit i s frustrating due to the perspex. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W > Newby: 35 hours > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: cameras and mounting From: Robert Borger Pete, I missed the documentation that the "battery bacPac" (US$50) could also double as an off-camera charger. I guess I'll eventually have to invest in one of them and the Wi-Fi BacPac + Wi-Fi Remote. Thanks. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Pete wrote: Just a clarification, there is a "battery backpack" which comes with a larger back cover, which doubles the battery life, and the backpack can also be used as a charger separate from the camera. I just bought one and it works great. As you said, there are a crazy number of accessories, one of which is also the wifi backpack, allowing one to control multiple remote gopro cameras from the cockpit. The vid and picture quality of the hero2 is the best out there for these types of cameras. No image stabilization however. Cheers, Pete On Jul 31, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > Graeme, > > FWIW, I acquired a Go Pro Hero2. I acquired this primarily to use on a Little Toot Sport Biplane not the Europa. But I'm trying to come up with a means to use in the Europa as well. > > Pros: It's very nice. Takes excellent video/pictures (up to 1080P video or 10MP pics). Is easy to use (once you rtfm). Has tons of accessories to do all kinds of good stuff. Has lots of settings for the specific application you want to do. All kinds of mounts for darn near anything. Comes with an environmental case impervious to just about anything short of gun fire. Other cases for other applications are available. Free S/W for Mac or PC. Extremely easy to download video/pics on my Mac. Can't speak to PC but probably as easy. > > Cons: It's as aerodynamic a (small) brick and would be a B**** to mount on the exterior of a Europa. You'll need extra batteries for anything over a couple hours. Each hour of operation requires about an hour of recharge. Recharge is only done with the battery in the camera via USB connection. No external battery recharger available. So you can't recharge one battery while using a 2nd battery in the camera. > > Maybe with some effort you could gin-up a mount for in front of the outrigger/outer flap bracket. There's a remote control package (US$100) that might work to operate it out there. If you are still under construction and have not put the tip of the tail on, you might do something with that. Maybe in a wing tip? There's a suction mount and/or various sticky mounts you might use inside the windscreen. A couple different head mounts are available. More thought needed... > > If it were only more aero! > > A couple pics: > > > > > > The Motorsport configuration comes with all this: > > > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.