Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise (Frans Veldman)
2. 05:24 AM - Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise (Bud Yerly)
3. 08:32 AM - Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (phillik747)
4. 09:06 AM - Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (Alan Carter)
5. 09:11 AM - Re: woodcomp install on G-umpy any tips ? (MalcolmH)
6. 09:49 AM - Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. (phillik747)
7. 11:21 AM - Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise (zwakie)
8. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise (David Joyce)
9. 02:14 PM - Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise (zwakie)
10. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise |
Hi Marcel,
> Before asking my questions, I would like to express my BIG THANKS to
> Frans and Illona who drove their trailer up to Texel and drove
> PH-MZW back by road and ferry boat to my home base.
It is all in the spirit of the Europa community. Maybe some day I will
find myself in a situation where I need help, and some fellow Europa
flyer will help me out...
> (1) How much structural strength does the pierced part of the tunnel
> take, and what procedure do you recommend for the repair?
This is hard to tell from just a picture. It is ok to have a hole in the
tunnel, as many of us have made for whatever purpose, but of course the
location of the hole is critical. And a hole caused by slamming an
object through it often has damage stretching far beyond the hole
(invisible cracks, stretching of the material, etc). It is best to have
someone experienced in this to take a look at it, and determine whether
this will be a structural or cosmetic repair.
> (2) I am planning to have a complete new nose gear leg assembly
> installed. Unknown at this moment is how to check the integrity of
> the landing gear frame. All suggestions are welcome!
The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount frame. I would
start by checking the geometry of the propeller flange as described in
the Europa manual. If this is still ok then it is unlikely something has
bent.
> Please be aware that changing propeller-type will force me having to
> go through a lengthy and costly procedure to obtain a new noise
> certificate from the Dutch CAA.
ONLY if you are the first one in Europe to have that specific aircraft
type / engine / prop combination. If someone (for example in the UK) has
already a noise certificate for that combination you can just copy the
noise certificate.
Frans
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise |
Marcel,
You are on the right track.
I'm putting together a bit of info at the shop here in Florida and will
email direct to you a FACTORY suggested inspection sequence for the
structures, what you should look for in additional damage inspections,
and once you have the inspections complete will assist in a repair
method to include layup schedules and materials to make it good as new.
Removal of the engine, I am afraid, is mandatory to do a proper
inspection.
I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you soon.
I have been through this on 3 different damaged aircraft repairs and we
have a bit more experience on repairing this type of damage and finding
some hidden damage. So learn from our mistakes. (Insurance companies
require huge amounts of documentation if more is found after the final
payout is made.)
Just a heads up, normally the gear frame gets bent and we have to look
at the mounting of the frame to the fuselage also. Support of the
trigear for these inspections is a piece of cake and it only takes a day
to get it prepped for a thorough inspection but it does take a bit of
gear that the club and others can help with I'm sure for engine removal.
Look at it this way, you get to correct anything you didn't like and
really do a complete inspection and cleaning of the aircraft.
As for engine and prop damage:
Rotax manuals tend to be a bit vague.
Gear box check and prop flange check is mandatory and a proper dealer
will have the measurement tools and fixtures.
The slipper clutch is normally replaced, the prop shaft checked for true
and the prop flange of course. I normally have the bearings in the
gearbox replaced if the prop really hit hard and tore up the blades.
Runout on the crank is another check we have done by our Rotax Dealer as
Kerry has all the gear at hand and it is only a few more minutes to do.
My dealer is only a couple hours away which is nice, so we can do a face
to face with them on our repairs, but that is rare. We have never had
to replace the bearings in the engine or spun a crankshaft with a
slipper clutch installed. On a 912 we don't have to worry as much about
turbo support problems etc. of the 914 that creep up as the small dent
in the exhaust may lead to other problems with stressed turbo supports
etc.
Glycol coolers and oil coolers can be checked by you without difficulty.
I have found that government agencies only add cost and frustration to
changes to aircraft such as the propeller changes you are considering,
however you have great folks in the club to help with what has been
approved in other countries and will transfer to your particular
government requirements. The paperwork is the paperwork.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
Europa Tech Support
email direct at budyerly@msn.com<mailto:budyerly@msn.com>
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/>
(813) 653-4989
My cell direct is (813) 244-8354
----- Original Message -----
From: zwakie<mailto:mz@cariama.nl>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 1:01 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Landing mishap - asking for advise
<mz@cariama.nl<mailto:mz@cariama.nl>>
Last Monday I had a landing mishap on Texel (EHTX), resulting in a
nose wheel collapse after a bounced landing..
Before asking my questions, I would like to express my BIG THANKS to
Frans and Illona who drove their trailer up to Texel and drove PH-MZW
back by road and ferry boat to my home base. Frans and Illona, words
will always fall short when describing our gratitude! Also may thanks to
Tim who phoned me up offering any help I would need!
First examinations showed that propeller and nose gear leg are beyond
repair. Lower cowling got some minor cracks. After I removed the cowling
and the covering plate of the cockpit tunnel, I found another piece of
damage: evidently the nose leg had rotated appr. 45 degrees in the nose
gear leg tube, which resulted in the bump stop having pierced more or
less sideways through the tunnel appr. 1" into the passenger foot well
(see attached image).
My questions to the forum:
(1) How much structural strength does the pierced part of the tunnel
take, and what procedure do you recommend for the repair?
(2) I am planning to have a complete new nose gear leg assembly
installed. Unknown at this moment is how to check the integrity of the
landing gear frame. All suggestions are welcome!
(3) Of course I will have a professional Rotax maintenance company
perform shock load checks on the gearbox and the 912UL (80HP) engine.
I think I have once read somewhere on the forum that no matter the
outcome of the shock load checks, the crank bearings must be replaced. I
could however not find any reference to this in the Rotax manuals. What
is your idea on this?
(4) What other engine checks should be performed? Anything else you
would recommend doing/checking?
(5) For a new propeller I am investigating a change from Arplast PV50
to Woodcomp SR3000/2W or SR3000/3.
- Will any of these Woodcomps bring significantly improved performance
compared to the Arplast?
- Will it make any sense to opt for a high-twist Woodcomp and will
these high-twist versions be a good fit for the small 80HP 912UL?
Please be aware that changing propeller-type will force me having to
go through a lengthy and costly procedure to obtain a new noise
certificate from the Dutch CAA. Therefore I already decided to stick
with Arplast PV50 unless a significant performance increase can be
achieved. My question is a mere attempt to get a feel for what to
expect...
(6) Anything I missed above that needs looking at?
Thanks very much for your advise!
--------
Marcel
(Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381254#381254<http://forums
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| Subject: | Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. |
After reading this post I went to my Europa, which is in the middle of a tri-gear
conversion, and took some pictures of the belly in the area shown in your photos
and was a little surprised. I used a light, put in the hole for the spar,
and shined it down and back towards the landing gear layups. What I noticed
is there is an 1/4 of an area that isn't as reinforced as the rest of the 10"
circle around the LG hole.
This may be the reason for the buckle/dent in the skin. I also have not put the
bottom layup on the belly yet but noticed that the skin can dent inwards with
little pressure.
[IMG]http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=100701&g2_serialNumber=2[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=100704&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381366#381366
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| Subject: | Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. |
Hello Phil.
Many thanks for taking the trouble to look,
Heavy landing does not sound good as i don,t think i have made one,maybe i should
have just labeled it Dent, although its really a little crease.
However i am reasonable satisfied that all is well as i have made a number of landings
now.
I have been keeping an eye on it and can see nothing of concern, I am not a builder
but maybe one day i will put a piece of bd glass on the inside to push it
out. Yes it is thin in that area , Bird hit ?? , i think the Crow hit the Starboard
Tail Stab, which seem to be my bone of contention, and will be get back
to the forum for more discussion and feed back with Bud and all i hope.
All the best Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381371#381371
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| Subject: | Re: woodcomp install on G-umpy any tips ? |
Hi Graeme
Can I ask you how your progressing with your Woodcomp prop installation and whether
it has been satisfactory.
Could you please give me the model number of the one you installed and the spinner
and fittings etc.
I am about to purchase my prop and am interested in the various options
regards
Malcolm Hendra
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381373#381373
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| Subject: | Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear. |
Yeah I after seeing this I might put an extra layer of bd on the bottom.
Kyle
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381379#381379
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| Subject: | Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise |
Thanks David for the informative and well-written documentation that you sent to
me directly. From it I learned that a high twist will not bring me significant
improvements in terms of performance or fuel flow, and that it will have a
slight negative impact on take-off performance.
That leaves (only?) one benefit of a high-twist propellor for my ship: improved
cooling. Since I already decided to fight my (small) cooling issues with an oil-water
exchanger from Laminowa, I do not (yet) see the point of using a high-twist
propellor on my airplane.
frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
> ONLY if you are the first one in Europe to have that specific aircraft type /
engine / prop combination. If someone (for example in the UK) has already a noise
certificate for that combination you can just copy the noise certificate.
That is true PROVIDED you can submit a detailled noise-measuring report to go along
with the noise-cert. The Noise Certificate by itself will be insufficient
to copy it (been there, done it when I moved my plane from the UK to Dutch register)
Having read more about propellers over the weekend, I am now inclined to stick
with Arplast PV50... (I wish it had some leading-edge protection, but that's another
discussion)
frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
> Maybe some day I will find myself in a situation where I need help, and some
fellow Europa flyer will help me out...
I hope you will never find yourselves in such a position, but give me a call if
you do :)
frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
> It is best to have someone experienced in this to take a look at it, and determine
whether this will be a structural or cosmetic repair.
My guess is it will be a cosmetic repair given the position where it pierced, but
I definitely want want to make sure by asking an expert. Frans, do you know
anyone, perhaps yourself?
frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
> The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount frame. I would start by
checking the geometry of the propeller flange as described in the Europa manual.
If this is still ok then it is unlikely something has bent.
Unlikely, but not impossible, right? At least, that's what I read from Bud's response
("Just a heads up, normally the gear frame gets bent and we have to look
at the mounting of the frame to the fuselage also").
Still, measuring the geometry seems like a sensible good first step... (I already
pulled the procedure for this from the build manual)
budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:
> I'm putting together a bit of info at the shop here in Florida and will email
direct to you a FACTORY suggested inspection sequence for the structures, what
you should look for in additional damage inspections, and once you have the
inspections complete will assist in a repair method to include layup schedules
and materials to make it good as new.
That would be really helpfull, thanks Bud!
budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:
> Removal of the engine, I am afraid, is mandatory to do a proper inspection.
Not the thing I would like to hear, but somehow I knew this to be the case. Certainly
since I am not willing to cut corners...
budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:
> I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you soon.
Sure, thanks!
--------
Marcel
(Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381388#381388
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| Subject: | Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise |
Marcel, Somewhere in that article I said that the
calculations suggest that the high twist prop gave me the
equivalent of 7.5 horse power, if I remember rightly, (as
computed from CAFE calculations). Now the 914 is already
providing lots of horsepower whereas the 912 I would have
thought needs all the help it can get! It did in fact
produce modest improvements in climb rate and fuel flow as
well as the 4 kt increase in top speed, all showing that
the high twist blade is more efficient,, and the take off
distance was notas you say 'increased' but 'Not
perceptibly changed'. So it is fair enough to say that it
is too much hassle to change propeller type, but not to
say that it would not be any improvement. Regards, David
On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:20:33 -0700
"zwakie" <mz@cariama.nl> wrote:
><mz@cariama.nl>
>
> Thanks David for the informative and well-written
>documentation that you sent to me directly. From it I
>learned that a high twist will not bring me significant
>improvements in terms of performance or fuel flow, and
>that it will have a slight negative impact on take-off
>performance.
>
> That leaves (only?) one benefit of a high-twist
>propellor for my ship: improved cooling. Since I already
>decided to fight my (small) cooling issues with an
>oil-water exchanger from Laminowa, I do not (yet) see the
>point of using a high-twist propellor on my airplane.
>
>
> frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
>> ONLY if you are the first one in Europe to have that
>>specific aircraft type / engine / prop combination. If
>>someone (for example in the UK) has already a noise
>>certificate for that combination you can just copy the
>>noise certificate.
>
> That is true PROVIDED you can submit a detailled
>noise-measuring report to go along with the noise-cert.
>The Noise Certificate by itself will be insufficient to
>copy it (been there, done it when I moved my plane from
>the UK to Dutch register)
>
> Having read more about propellers over the weekend, I am
>now inclined to stick with Arplast PV50... (I wish it had
>some leading-edge protection, but that's another
>discussion)
>
>
> frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
>> Maybe some day I will find myself in a situation where I
>>need help, and some fellow Europa flyer will help me
>>out...
>
> I hope you will never find yourselves in such a
>position, but give me a call if you do :)
>
>
> frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
>> It is best to have someone experienced in this to take a
>>look at it, and determine whether this will be a
>>structural or cosmetic repair.
>
> My guess is it will be a cosmetic repair given the
>position where it pierced, but I definitely want want to
>make sure by asking an expert. Frans, do you know anyone,
>perhaps yourself?
>
>
> frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:
>> The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount
>>frame. I would start by checking the geometry of the
>>propeller flange as described in the Europa manual. If
>>this is still ok then it is unlikely something has bent.
>
> Unlikely, but not impossible, right? At least, that's
>what I read from Bud's response ("Just a heads up,
>normally the gear frame gets bent and we have to look at
>the mounting of the frame to the fuselage also").
> Still, measuring the geometry seems like a sensible good
>first step... (I already pulled the procedure for this
>from the build manual)
>
>
> budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:
>> I'm putting together a bit of info at the shop here in
>>Florida and will email direct to you a FACTORY suggested
>>inspection sequence for the structures, what you should
>>look for in additional damage inspections, and once you
>>have the inspections complete will assist in a repair
>>method to include layup schedules and materials to make
>>it good as new.
>
> That would be really helpfull, thanks Bud!
>
>
> budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:
>> Removal of the engine, I am afraid, is mandatory to do a
>>proper inspection.
>
> Not the thing I would like to hear, but somehow I knew
>this to be the case. Certainly since I am not willing to
>cut corners...
>
>
> budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:
>> I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you
>>soon.
>
> Sure, thanks!
>
> --------
> Marcel
> (Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381388#381388
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise |
David,
I stand corrected on the take-off roll distance figures.
I perceive the expected performance increase to be too little to justify having
to re-apply for a new Noise Cert. Different words, but the exact same thing you
are saying. That's why I wrote I did not expect *significant* performance gains
for the way that I normally fly. Rest assured, I do recognize that high twist
propellers are more efficient.
--------
Marcel
(Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381401#381401
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise |
Marcel=0AYou might find that the Arplast is already fairly high twist. It's
a good robust prop. If you speak French talk to Alain Petit,=0AHe does-s
peak-some English. His daughter-Laeticia-runs the props business, (la
st time I was there) Her English isn't bad either.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A_______
_________________________=0A From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 20 August 2012, 21:39=0AS
ubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise=0A =0A--> E
uropa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A
=0AMarcel, Somewhere in that article I said that the calculations suggest t
hat the high twist prop gave me the equivalent of- 7.5 horse power, if I
remember rightly, (as computed from CAFE calculations). Now the 914 is alre
ady providing lots of horsepower whereas the 912 I would have thought needs
all the help it can get! It did in fact produce modest improvements in cli
mb rate and fuel flow as well as the 4 kt increase in top speed, all showin
g that the high twist blade is more efficient,, and the take off distance w
as notas you say 'increased' but 'Not perceptibly changed'. So it is fair e
nough to say that it is too much hassle to change propeller type, but not t
o say that it would not be any improvement. Regards, David=0A=0AOn Mon, 20
Aug 2012 11:20:33 -0700=0A"zwakie" <mz@cariama.nl> wrote:=0A> --> Europa-Li
st message posted by: "zwakie" <mz@cariama.nl>=0A> =0A> Thanks David for th
e informative and well-written documentation that you sent to me directly.
>From it I learned that a high twist will not bring me significant improveme
nts in terms of performance or fuel flow, and that it will have a slight ne
gative impact on take-off performance.=0A> =0A> That leaves (only?) one ben
efit of a high-twist propellor for my ship: improved cooling. Since I alrea
dy decided to fight my (small) cooling issues with an oil-water exchanger f
rom Laminowa, I do not (yet) see the point of using a high-twist propellor
on my airplane.=0A> =0A> =0A> frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:=0A>> ONLY if
you are the first one in Europe to have that specific aircraft type / engi
ne / prop combination. If someone (for example in the UK) has already a noi
se certificate for that combination you can just copy the noise certificate
.=0A> =0A> That is true PROVIDED you can submit a detailled noise-measuring
report to go along with the noise-cert. The Noise Certificate by itself wi
ll be insufficient to copy it (been there, done it when I moved my plane fr
om the UK to Dutch register)=0A> =0A> Having read more about propellers ove
r the weekend, I am now inclined to stick with Arplast PV50... (I wish it h
ad some leading-edge protection, but that's another discussion)=0A> =0A>
=0A> frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:=0A>> Maybe some day I will find mysel
f in a situation where I need help, and some fellow Europa flyer will help
me out...=0A> =0A> I hope you will never find yourselves in such a position
, but give me a call if you do :)=0A> =0A> =0A> frans(at)privatepilots.nl w
rote:=0A>> It is best to have someone experienced in this to take a look at
it, and determine whether this will be a structural or cosmetic repair.=0A
> =0A> My guess is it will be a cosmetic repair given the position where it
pierced, but I definitely want want to make sure by asking an expert. Fran
s, do you know anyone, perhaps yourself?=0A> =0A> =0A> frans(at)privatepilo
ts.nl wrote:=0A>> The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount fra
me. I would start by checking the geometry of the propeller flange as descr
ibed in the Europa manual. If this is still ok then it is unlikely somethin
g has bent.=0A> =0A> Unlikely, but not impossible, right? At least, that's
what I read from Bud's- response ("Just a heads up, normally the gear fra
me gets bent and we have to look at the mounting of the frame to the fusela
ge also"). Still, measuring the geometry seems like a sensible good first s
tep... (I already pulled the procedure for this from the build manual)=0A>
=0A> =0A> budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:=0A>> I'm putting together a bit of inf
o at the shop here in Florida and will email direct to you a FACTORY sugges
ted inspection sequence for the structures, what you should look for in add
itional damage inspections, and once you have the inspections complete will
assist in a repair method to include layup schedules and materials to make
it good as new.=0A> =0A> That would be really helpfull, thanks Bud!=0A>
=0A> =0A> budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:=0A>> Removal of the engine, I am afrai
d, is mandatory to do a proper inspection.=0A> =0A> Not the thing I would l
ike to hear, but somehow I knew this to be the case. Certainly since I am n
ot willing to cut corners...=0A> =0A> =0A> budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:=0A>>
I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you soon.=0A> =0A> Sure, th
anks!=0A> =0A> --------=0A> Marcel=0A> (Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)=0A>
=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.ma
tronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381388#381388=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>
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