Europa-List Digest Archive

Wed 09/26/12


Total Messages Posted: 10



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:15 AM - Re: fuel flow (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
     2. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: fuel flow (Neville Eyre)
     3. 10:35 AM - Re: fuel flow (G-IANI)
     4. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: fuel flow (Kevin Challis)
     5. 12:12 PM - Re: fuel flow (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
     6. 12:53 PM - Re: fuel flow (europapa)
     7. 03:12 PM - Arplast PV 50 Prop (Alan Carter)
     8. 03:49 PM - Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     9. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
    10. 11:48 PM - Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop (David Joyce)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:15:06 AM PST US
    From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: fuel flow
    Hi Max, Thanks for this, I was unaware of the FAA mod approval (though building under the auspices of the UK's LAA, I'm not sure how relevant this is). To expand your question to Raimo, it would be interesting to know if anyone else has carried out fuel flow tests to see exactly how much fuel returns under varying load conditions? Nigel On 25/09/2012 10:26, Max Cointe wrote: > > Nigel, > > There is a mod 12209 approved by FAA stating that for 912ULS a single > transducer could fit as the variations of the quantity of fuel > returned to tank are small (but dependant of the variation of power > setting). I understand that the tuning of factor K should cover it. > The same mod states that 2 transducers are mandatory for the 914. > > Raimo, did you measure the discrepancy at various power setting? > > Max Cointe > > F-PMLH Europa_TriGear > > Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours > > mcointe@free.fr <mailto:mcointe@free.fr> > > *De :*owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *De la part de* > nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk > *Envoy :* mardi 25 septembre 2012 09:08 > * :* europa-list@matronics.com > *Objet :* Re: Europa-List: fuel flow > > Hi Raimo, > > This is a nice looking bit of kit. Curiosity took me to the FDS > website for more info and having downloaded the manual, I notice that > they specify a second FT-60 "red cube" flow transducer should be used > in the fuel return line when used with a Rotax 912x installation. How > did you get away with using only one and still maintain accuracy? > > Nigel > > On 24/09/2012 21:57, Raimo Toivio wrote: > > Hi Max > > I installed Flight Data Systems FC-10 and only one sender FT-60 > "red cube". My fuel system is as per manual (including fuel > strainers, electric gauge and a return line one way valve). > > *http://www.matron===================*http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site -Matt Dralle, href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * * > * > > > *


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:47:17 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: fuel flow
    From: Neville Eyre <neveyre@aol.com>
    Hi Juergen, Re routing the return line in this way is negating the main reason to have it in the first place. The main reason for the return line is to purge vapour and hot fuel trapped in the lines close to the carbs, back into the tank. The Manual instructs to have the return line as close as possible to the port [ second in the li ne] carb, so all of it gets purged. Returning fuel to the tank from the line before the transducer, leaves all the fuel downstream of that, forward of the firewall to the carbs, in the hot cowl after shut down. When plumbed as per Manual, the hot fuel gets returned to the tank, with fr esh, cool fuel feeding the engine, [ and cooling the lines at the same time ]. If installed in the standard Europa XS cowl, this area gets up to, and some times above 80C for a while after shut down on a hot day. If installed as y ou are describing, you have an accident waiting to happen. [vapour lock in the climbout after a short shutdown]. Fire sleeve / insulation of the lines is only a half way fix. Regards, Nev. -----Original Message----- From: europapa <experimental@online.de> Sent: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:51 Subject: Europa-List: Re: fuel flow I made my experiences with the installation of only one transducer. am using the floscan transducer and a separate fuel computer. he quantity of fuel that returns may nearly be constant ( not in my nstallation, as the fuel pressure is for any reason not always the same ) b ut ou can only trick the computer with an matching K-factor for only one defin ed ower setting. ne of the most important questions to the fuel computer for me is: how much uel is left in tank after for example two hours flying? ut in a flight we use different power settings so the number the computer howed was rubbish. o I redesigned the fuel routing: he fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump now goes all the way back throug h he fire wall to the cavity where the fuel select switch is. here I installed a y peace. One line goes with the restrictor in it back to the ank while the other goes in a strait line and with the transducer in line b ack hrough the fire wall to the carburetors. o only the fuel used by the carburetors is measured and the accuracy is utstanding. After burning 40 liters there is only a discrepancy of half a iter. nd I have too all the benefits Raimo mentioned and I agree with him that th is ystem should be mandatory. orry for my bad phrasing. Juergen ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383996#383996 -= - The Europa-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -========================


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:35:57 AM PST US
    From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: fuel flow
    Nigel/Max The Mod quoted is the LAA Mod 12209 which I wrote (Not an FAA Mod). In the document I quoted what some builders had said which was that they had obtained adequate results by assuming the return flow was constant and "fixing" the "K" factor accordingly.. The best solution as other have stated is to get a single transducer located after the bleed to the return line. If you cannot achieve this (and are feeling rich) two transducers (one flow and the other return) is the way to go. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours Europa Club Mods Specialist e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:50:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: fuel flow
    From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie@blueyonder.co.uk>
    I have 1 sender after the return below the highest point. So any vapour risi ng to the top of the circuit is returned via the return which is after the h igh point but before the fuel flow sender. The pipe after the sender is very short and this setup has given no problems even when hot. The accuracy of t he fuel flow is brilliant. This setup was recommend by a Rotax expert. I hav e a xs firewall forward setup. Kevin Challis On 26 Sep 2012, at 17:46, Neville Eyre <neveyre@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Juergen, > Re routing the return line in this way is negating the main reason to have it in the first place. > The main reason for the return line is to purge vapour and hot fuel trappe d in the lines close to the carbs, back into the tank. The Manual instructs t o have the return line as close as possible to the port [ second in the line ] carb, so all of it gets purged. > Returning fuel to the tank from the line before the transducer, leaves al l the fuel downstream of that, forward of the firewall to the carbs, in the h ot cowl after shut down. > When plumbed as per Manual, the hot fuel gets returned to the tank, with f resh, cool fuel feeding the engine, [ and cooling the lines at the same time ]. > If installed in the standard Europa XS cowl, this area gets up to, and som etimes above 80C for a while after shut down on a hot day. If installed as y ou are describing, you have an accident waiting to happen. [vapour lock in t he climbout after a short shutdown]. > Fire sleeve / insulation of the lines is only a half way fix. > Regards, > Nev. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: europapa <experimental@online.de> > To: europa-list <europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:51 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: fuel flow > > > I made my experiences with the installation of only one transducer. > I am using the floscan transducer and a separate fuel computer. > The quantity of fuel that returns may nearly be constant ( not in my > installation, as the fuel pressure is for any reason not always the same ) but > you can only trick the computer with an matching K-factor for only one def ined > power setting. > One of the most important questions to the fuel computer for me is: how mu ch > fuel is left in tank after for example two hours flying? > But in a flight we use different power settings so the number the computer > showed was rubbish. > So I redesigned the fuel routing: > The fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump now goes all the way back thro ugh > the fire wall to the cavity where the fuel select switch is. > There I installed a y peace. One line goes with the restrictor in it back t o the > tank while the other goes in a strait line and with the transducer in line back > through the fire wall to the carburetors. > So only the fuel used by the carburetors is measured and the accuracy is > outstanding. After burning 40 liters there is only a discrepancy of half a > liter. > And I have too all the benefits Raimo mentioned and I agree with him that t his > system should be mandatory. > Sorry for my bad phrasing. > > Juergen > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383996#383996 > > > > > > > > arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:12:39 PM PST US
    From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: fuel flow
    Hi Ian, Thanks for this. I was tipped off that it was one of yours and I've just been reading it - nice work. It answers my question of how to accurately monitor fuel flow with a return line and just one transducer - although the required plumbing does leave the connections to the carburettors exposed to possible vapour lock (as Nev pointed out). As with all things in aviation - everything is a compromise. Nigel On 26/09/2012 18:35, G-IANI wrote: > > Nigel/Max > > The Mod quoted is the LAA Mod 12209 which I wrote (Not an FAA Mod). > In the document I quoted what some builders had said which was that > they had obtained adequate results by assuming the return flow was > constant and "fixing" the "K" factor accordingly.. > > The best solution as other have stated is to get a single transducer > located after the bleed to the return line. If you cannot achieve > this (and are feeling rich) two transducers (one flow and the other > return) is the way to go. > > Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours > Europa Club Mods Specialist > e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com > > * > > > *


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:53:15 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: fuel flow
    From: "europapa" <experimental@online.de>
    Nev, thank you for your statement. As the fuel line to the t-peace with both lines to the carbs is now only less then ten inches long and the fuel comes from behind the fire wall where it is rather cool I am not afraid of a vapor lock to be happen there. But may be my understanding of the vapor lock problem is not complete. This summer I had a flight in very hot conditions and a very short stop in between. This has been a good opportunity for a vapor look like in the books. Nothing happens but this is of course no proof that I am right. I will take your advice as an occasion to think it over again. Juergen Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384043#384043


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:12:16 PM PST US
    Subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hello All. 1. I have a Arplast PV50, if a prop can be called a wobbly prop the PV 50 fits the bill. Is there a PV 50 owner out there who can give me some information on this prop.?? There is no UK agent. 2.I have been filling the chips in the leading edge with Araldite and repainting the tips. The prop is about 10 years old and done about 400 hours,?? i have no idear when it was last balanced, but it seems OK in flight. "Some say" it will need re balancing, in an ideal world i would go along with that, but its not an ideal world,and the use of common sence needed. However i stand to be corrected if needed. I now nothing about balancing props,but think the prop could now be slightly more or slightly less inbalance,but with intolerance. The only way to really know is to check the balance before then after the repairs, and see the effect. We are talking about small repairs not big dobs of paint. Has anyone done this, and can give an answer. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384047#384047


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:49:53 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop
    Alan,=0Afilling dings in the leading edge won't have much effect but uneven painting could. It is possible to check the balance statically using a sca le=0A=0Aaccurate to a tenth of a gram. You will need to make a jig with a k nife edge pivot at one end, which effectively- represents the centre of t he prop.=0A=0AEach blade is fixed on the jig in such a position that it's r oot end is the correct distance from the centre. Now a second knife edge (o r indeed a single point) at roughly half the length of the blade, (not crit ical) is placed on the scale and the weight noted. This weight is now the " moment" of that blade about the centre of the prop. Obviously the moment of all three blades must be the same for good balance.=0AIt's interesting to note that the weight of each blade may not be identical, it's the "moment" - (= weight X distance) that must be the same.=0AHope that's clear?=0AW e used to balance wooden props to respond to the weight of a postage stamp on one end using a pair of level knife edges and the prop on a central spin dle. We used an extra coat of paint to achieve final balance.=0AThe Arplast blades have a 1/4" hole drilled from the root to about 1/3 span. Lead shot was used to achieve balance, sealed in with epoxy resin.=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0A From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq@one tel.net>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 26 September 2 012, 23:11=0ASubject: Europa-List: Arplast PV 50 Prop=0A =0A--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>=0A=0AHello All .=0A1. I have a Arplast PV50, if a prop can be called a wobbly prop the PV 50 fits the bill. =0AIs there a PV 50 owner out there who can give me some information on this prop.??=0AThere is no UK agent.=0A2.I have been filling the chips in the leading edge with Araldite and repainting- the tips.=0A The prop is about 10 years old and done about 400 hours,?? i have no idear when it was last- balanced, but it seems OK in flight.=0A"Some say" it wi ll need re balancing, in an ideal world i would go along with that, but its not an ideal world,and the use of common sence needed.=0AHowever i stand t o be corrected if needed.=0AI now nothing about balancing props,but think t he prop could now be slightly more or slightly less inbalance,but with into lerance.=0AThe only way to really know is to check the balance before then after the repairs, and see the effect. We are talking about small repairs n ot big dobs of paint. =0AHas anyone done this, and can give an answer.=0A =0AAlan=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matro ===========


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:58:30 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: fuel flow
    Jeurgen=0AA lot of the heat in the fuel is from the mechanical pump, which is heated by the oil=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: europapa <experimental@online.de>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012, 20:52=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: f online.de>=0A=0ANev,=0A=0Athank you for your statement.=0AAs the fuel line to the t-peace with both lines to the carbs is now only less then ten inche s long and the fuel comes from behind the fire wall where it is rather cool I am not afraid of a vapor lock to be happen there.=0ABut may be my unders tanding of the vapor lock problem is not complete.=0AThis summer I had a fl ight in very hot conditions and a very short stop in between. This has been a good opportunity for a vapor look like in the books.=0ANothing happens b ut this is of course no proof that I am right.=0AI will take your advice as an occasion to think it over again.=0A=0AJuergen=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this t opic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384043 ========================


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:48:42 PM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop
    Alan, it would be worth contacting Mark Burton, a long time Europa owner with an Arplast, who knows all about prop balancing. As proprietor of Smart Avionics he manufactures an inexpensive prop balancer, as well as the prop controller and the SmartASS airspeed speaker/director. His email attached. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:11:15 -0700 "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote: ><alancarteresq@onetel.net> > > Hello All. > 1. I have a Arplast PV50, if a prop can be called a >wobbly prop the PV 50 fits the bill. > Is there a PV 50 owner out there who can give me some >information on this prop.?? > There is no UK agent. > 2.I have been filling the chips in the leading edge with >Araldite and repainting the tips. > The prop is about 10 years old and done about 400 >hours,?? i have no idear when it was last balanced, but >it seems OK in flight. > "Some say" it will need re balancing, in an ideal world >i would go along with that, but its not an ideal >world,and the use of common sence needed. > However i stand to be corrected if needed. > I now nothing about balancing props,but think the prop >could now be slightly more or slightly less inbalance,but >with intolerance. > The only way to really know is to check the balance >before then after the repairs, and see the effect. We are >talking about small repairs not big dobs of paint. > Has anyone done this, and can give an answer. > > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384047#384047 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > >




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