---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/04/12: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:06 AM - Re: woodcomp repairs (stephen vestuti) 2. 04:41 AM - Re: [Spam] New to List (Paul McAllister) 3. 07:44 AM - Re: [Spam] New to List (AirEupora) 4. 10:30 AM - Mod 33 Water drains (Jerry Rehn) 5. 11:38 AM - Re: Mod 33 Water drains (klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com) 6. 11:53 AM - Re: Mod 33 Water drains (Bob Harrison) 7. 12:20 PM - Re: Mod 33 Water drains (Frans Veldman) 8. 12:47 PM - Re: New to List (Frans Veldman) 9. 01:05 PM - Re: [Spam] New to List (Frans Veldman) 10. 01:12 PM - Re: New to List (Jeremy Fisher) 11. 01:18 PM - Re: [Spam] New to List (Karl Heindl) 12. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: New to List (Karl Heindl) 13. 02:09 PM - Re: [Spam] New to List (Jeremy Fisher) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: woodcomp repairs From: "stephen vestuti" Thats nice to know Grahame, what happened then ? nobody hurt was there ? Steve. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384608#384608 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List From: Paul McAllister Hi Jeremy, I have not done the cabin mod and although the cabin is nice and wide as it is, the mod removes a ridge that pokes you just below the shoulder in the bicep. If I had it over again then I would do it. I am not aware of what it takes to do the high top mod, but that is something I would consider as well. I am 180cm tall and an extra 20mm would be really nice. As to the build, generally I would not encourage you to deviate too much. The original design is pretty close to "good" and any departures will add time to your build, much more than you think it will. The only other thing I would have done differently is the fuel system. - Aluminum fuel lines. Lighter and last forever - Keep the original parallel fuel pump design but add check valves. - Separate the fuel pump inlets and feed each one with a gascolator. As to cooling. I have extensively modified my cooling with cowl flaps, lamovia heat exchanger, diffused inlets, intercooler and internal ducting. I have spent 12 months over 3 winters and countless hours on this and although I am close, its still not right. I would encourage you to think carefully before getting into complex modifications. It you really want to get into this then don't do what I did, take a look at Fran's solution, but plan on adding 6 months to your build. Paul On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Alex Kaarsberg wrote: > > Jeremy, welcome to the list, I am sure you will appreciate it. > > I can only answer your question 6, at 110 cm it is as wide as a Beech > Baron I am told! I have no intention of doing that mod. > > Brgds, Alex, kit 529. > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:55 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: [Spam] New to List From: "AirEupora" Welcome to the forum. I'm 6' 2" and was 250. So I did the high top and the cabin width Mods. Both were worth the time and trouble for me. The only trouble I had was the new wind screen that the company sent. It was to small for the opening as I did the 64B mod. I also put in the auto-pilot. I made the pitch bracket and would be glad to sent you a copy and pictures. You don't have to take the pitch control out of the aircraft. As far as getting in and out. My wife is 72 and she has had no problem. I followed Bud advice and reinforce the wing in the step area. You sit on the front of the wing then move your rear end onto the head rest and pull your legs into the cockpit then sit down. The same coming out. Again welcome. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384629#384629 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:34 AM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Europa-List: Mod 33 Water drains I purchased this mod sometime ago and have yet to install it. I have not had any issues until lately, I think. I did not like the idea of adding more fittings and complications to the fuel system not to mention it looks like a pain to do! So I am looking for two things. How many are experiencing water in their Fuel and what kind of fuel? And those of you that have installed the Mod, how tough was it and have you found water? Regarding my issue, I fueled up with 6 gallons I now know has up to 10% ethanol on top of about 6 gallons not sure about alcohol .In the past my fuel has been alcohol free, so maybe this has drawn in some water. Plane sat for ten days, no rain but humid. Started great, warmed up, ran mag check, fine, went to take off and engine stumbled badly as I approached full throttle thinking the water if any started moving forward to tank outlets. Backed off and ran fine again, did the same a second time, had enough, taxied back running fine. Have since raised tail to get any possible water to drain forward and pumped out 4 gallons, no water. However I may have run all the water through. I checked the turbo and all looks well. I have checked fuel flow and filter all fine. I ordered a bing overhaul kit and have the carbs dismantled, so far they look good. Should have everything back together by weekend unless I tackle mod 33 so would like advice there. I am thinking water is the prime suspect. I will have the carbs totally apart in a few hours so will be able to rule these in or out. I have had over ten years of "sewing machine" fine running engine so this is not fun! Thank you for help and advice. Jerry 914 XS Mono ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:40 AM PST US From: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 33 Water drains Hi Jerry, I don't think it's water. I run 10% ethanol all the time, have the drains an d a gascolator and have never found water. The alcohol will absorb water and therefor not show up at the low point. The stumble at full power could have been a carb bowl gasket leaking. I bet y our attention to the carbs will solve the problem. Kevin On Oct 4, 2012, at 11:29 AM, "Jerry Rehn" wrote: > I purchased this mod sometime ago and have yet to install it. I have not h ad any issues until lately, I think. I did not like the idea of adding more f ittings and complications to the fuel system not to mention it looks like a p ain to do! So I am looking for two things. How many are experiencing water i n their Fuel and what kind of fuel? And those of you that have installed the Mod, how tough was it and have you found water? > Regarding my issue, I fueled up with 6 gallons I now know has up to 10% et hanol on top of about 6 gallons not sure about alcohol .In the past my fuel h as been alcohol free, so maybe this has drawn in some water. Plane sat for t en days, no rain but humid. Started great, warmed up, ran mag check, fine, w ent to take off and engine stumbled badly as I approached full throttle thin king the water if any started moving forward to tank outlets. Backed off and ran fine again, did the same a second time, had enough, taxied back running fine. Have since raised tail to get any possible water to drain forward and pumped out 4 gallons, no water. However I may have run all the water throug h. I checked the turbo and all looks well. > I have checked fuel flow and filter all fine. I ordered a bing overhaul ki t and have the carbs dismantled, so far they look good. Should have everythi ng back together by weekend unless I tackle mod 33 so would like advice ther e. I am thinking water is the prime suspect. I will have the carbs totally a part in a few hours so will be able to rule these in or out. I have had over ten years of =9Csewing machine=9D fine running engine so this i s not fun! Thank you for help and advice. > Jerry > 914 XS Mono > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:57 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 33 Water drains Hi! Jerry, I have the water drain mod. But I have curled the water pick ups to be at the front corner of the tanks since my aircraft is now permanently a trike. I have had instances of considerable amounts of water coming out of the drains but mostly since before I used duck tape on the key hole on the lockable fuel cap., None since. I also have two mini cascolators in each fuel line from the tank before the electric pumps and one way valves. I also have a removable access hole in the tank top for my fuel gauge sender into which I can get my arm to do an annual mop out and generally find some in there. I have also had problems with the finger filters catching fibres from wipe out cloths. This access hole allows careful positioning of the water pick up pipes on to the floor of the tank. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Rehn Sent: 04 October 2012 18:29 Subject: Europa-List: Mod 33 Water drains I purchased this mod sometime ago and have yet to install it. I have not had any issues until lately, I think. I did not like the idea of adding more fittings and complications to the fuel system not to mention it looks like a pain to do! So I am looking for two things. How many are experiencing water in their Fuel and what kind of fuel? And those of you that have installed the Mod, how tough was it and have you found water? Regarding my issue, I fueled up with 6 gallons I now know has up to 10% ethanol on top of about 6 gallons not sure about alcohol .In the past my fuel has been alcohol free, so maybe this has drawn in some water. Plane sat for ten days, no rain but humid. Started great, warmed up, ran mag check, fine, went to take off and engine stumbled badly as I approached full throttle thinking the water if any started moving forward to tank outlets. Backed off and ran fine again, did the same a second time, had enough, taxied back running fine. Have since raised tail to get any possible water to drain forward and pumped out 4 gallons, no water. However I may have run all the water through. I checked the turbo and all looks well. I have checked fuel flow and filter all fine. I ordered a bing overhaul kit and have the carbs dismantled, so far they look good. Should have everything back together by weekend unless I tackle mod 33 so would like advice there. I am thinking water is the prime suspect. I will have the carbs totally apart in a few hours so will be able to rule these in or out. I have had over ten years of "sewing machine" fine running engine so this is not fun! Thank you for help and advice. Jerry 914 XS Mono ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:02 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 33 Water drains On 10/04/2012 07:29 PM, Jerry Rehn wrote: > I purchased this mod sometime ago and have yet to install it. I have not > had any issues until lately, I think. I did not like the idea of adding > more fittings and complications to the fuel system not to mention it > looks like a pain to do! So I am looking for two things. How many are > experiencing water in their Fuel and what kind of fuel? And those of you > that have installed the Mod, how tough was it and have you found water? I have this mod since the beginning and I'm planning to take it out. Never found any water in the fuel, despite having had the airplane parked in heavy rain, in the mountains with huge temperature differences between day and night (so plenty of volume changes and potential for condensation against the tank walls). I tank ethanol fuel and avgas, but never a single drop of water with both fuel types. At the same time the fuel drains are another complication of the fuel system with a potential for leaks. If you would ever be in a forced landing situation and the landing gear would collapse, the fuel drains will drag over the surface, shear off as well and you have the combination of sparks and a non-closable fuel leak. Not good. So, I regret having installed this mod and I will undo it at the next major fuel system maintenance. Frans ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:00 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: New to List On 10/03/2012 10:51 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote: > 1. I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914. Is it worth the hassle to > fit an intercooler? I have an intercooler but I found it not worth it. In the standard cooling configuration it is highly doubtfull the intercooler will work anyway, as there is hardly any pressure drop over the intercooler for the cooling air (the exit is in the cowling, which is not exactly a low pressure area). Even after reworking the whole cooling system, which is a major project, and getting enough pressure drop over the intercooler, the result is still hardly noticable. Also, the intercooler won't do anything good during the cruise (in fact, it just creates drag) so it can only beneficial during take off. As the 914 can take off in a shorter distance than needed to land, it is questionable whether even a shorter take off roll would be of any significance. At the same time, the intercooler adds weight, adds drag (you can't get air through it for free) and makes relocation of the oil tank to a more cumbersome location necessary (at the port side there is less room, and the hose routing is more complicated) So, if I would start all over again, I would probably leave the intercooler out, it is not worth it. > 3. I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I know that > lots of people have modified the standard system. Has anyone used > the Laminova oil to water cooler, and if so, which size did you use, > and what was the result? I have the Laminova heat exchanger with great results, but I have entirely changed the rest of the cooling setup as well. Provided you have a highly efficent water cooling, the Laminova has the benefit of tightly coupling the oil temp to the water temp (reducing stress in the engine) and allowing superfast oil warm up times without having to resort to an oil thermostat. It also makes it less complicated to get an efficent engine cooling; you only have to focus on getting the water cooling working ok, designing a proper ducting for it, and have one cowl flap to control both the temperature of the water and oil. For the 914 you need the larger Laminova with a plug in the coolant hole, there is a special light weight version of the Laminova availabe. Beware, due to the tiny canals in the Laminova, you can't use the Evans coolant. 50/50 works very well though. Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:06 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List On 10/04/2012 01:34 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > As to cooling. I have extensively modified my cooling with cowl flaps, > lamovia heat exchanger, diffused inlets, intercooler and internal > ducting. I have spent 12 months over 3 winters and countless hours on > this and although I am close, its still not right. I would encourage > you to think carefully before getting into complex modifications. Well, at least we can now tell what won't work. The main thing we found is that no matter what you try, the original coolant radiator is just to thick to get both a decent low drag and efficient air flow through it. Replace it with a thin radiator (as in *every* commercial Rotax application I have seen) and from there you can just optimize the cooling system by recycling the exit air for cowling and turbo cooling and applying an adjustable cowl flap for temperature regulation, and optimizing inlet and outlet for minimal drag. It will give you superb cooling and add some knots to your airspeed at the same time. > It you really want to get into this then don't do what I did, take a > look at Fran's solution, but plan on adding 6 months to your build. Thanks! Well, 6 months is a little bit exaggarated once you know how to do it, but of course you need to extensively modify the cowling, and depending on your skills and experience this will take more or less time. I had no prior experience in modelling and building shapes, but once I got the hang of it I could work pretty fast. Before I got it right I built a dozen or so diffusing air inlets (in fruitless attempts to get sufficient airflow through the thick radiator). The end result with a thin radiator in line with the cowling belly is surprisingly easy, much easier to build than all the carefully calculated and shaped diffusers. Take a look at the Rotax equipped Diamond airplanes (super Dimona, Katana) to get some inspiration. I used a Laminova heat exchanger so I only had to care about cooling of the coolant. Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:08 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: New to List From: Jeremy Fisher I really want to thank the many people who answered my questions, you saved me a lot of time, and I learned what I wanted. Very refreshing, not even the Lancair List was quite as quick in replying to questions. I also appreciate the comment to keep it as standard as possible. I really learned that lesson building the Lancair, which probably took twice as long as it could or should have, and it just got heavier! In summary, I will leave the intercooler out initially, I will leave the cockpit width as is, I now have the missing oil reservoir mount template, and I got some excellent ideas for the autopilot mount. I am still thinking about about a step like the RV-7 but in front of the wing as a possibility, probably for later. Thanks to everyone. Jerry On Oct 3, 2012, at 4:51 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote: > I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most of the structure now complete. I am based at an Airpark on Cape Cod in the US, and previously built a Lancair 360. > > After going through the aircraft and all of the books, I have a couple of questions, and would be grateful for any inputs or advice. In particular: > > 1. I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914. Is it worth the hassle to fit an intercooler? The advice from the outfit that refurbished it is not to bother, as the engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature of the inlet air. > > 2. Access to the cockpit appears to be pretty awkward. Has anyone tried to install a step to assist, or is it easier to get in than it looks? In addition, do you need to reinforce the wing upper surface where you have to step to get in, or is it strong enough to take size 10 boots? > > 3. I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I know that lots of people have modified the standard system. Has anyone used the Laminova oil to water cooler, and if so, which size did you use, and what was the result? > > 4. Where can I find the pattern for the oil reservoir mounting plate? My manual refers to it, but it seems to be missing from my documentation. > > 5. For those of you who are not cursed with the LAA, has anyone installed an autopilot pitch servo connected to the system without changing the lateral pitch tube as per the factory installation? It would be both expensive and fairly difficult for me to change it at this build stage. I am considering a couple of alternatives and would like to learn from anyone else's experience. > > 6. My wife and i are both pretty skinny (she is slender, i am skinny!). Do you find that widening the cockpit at the shoulders as per the Mod List is worth it, or do you not have any problem with the standard cockpit in practice? > > Thank you for any advice that you can offer. > > Jerry Fisher ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:57 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List Frans=2C Could you give us the details and source of the thin radiator ?Many thanks. Karl > Date: Thu=2C 4 Oct 2012 22:56:17 +0200 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List > > > On 10/04/2012 01:34 PM=2C Paul McAllister wrote: > > > As to cooling. I have extensively modified my cooling with cowl flaps =2C > > lamovia heat exchanger=2C diffused inlets=2C intercooler and internal > > ducting. I have spent 12 months over 3 winters and countless hours on > > this and although I am close=2C its still not right. I would encourage > > you to think carefully before getting into complex modifications. > > Well=2C at least we can now tell what won't work. > > The main thing we found is that no matter what you try=2C the original > coolant radiator is just to thick to get both a decent low drag and > efficient air flow through it. Replace it with a thin radiator (as in > *every* commercial Rotax application I have seen) and from there you can > just optimize the cooling system by recycling the exit air for cowling > and turbo cooling and applying an adjustable cowl flap for temperature > regulation=2C and optimizing inlet and outlet for minimal drag. It will > give you superb cooling and add some knots to your airspeed at the same > time. > > > It you really want to get into this then don't do what I did=2C take a > > look at Fran's solution=2C but plan on adding 6 months to your build. > > Thanks! Well=2C 6 months is a little bit exaggarated once you know how to > do it=2C but of course you need to extensively modify the cowling=2C and > depending on your skills and experience this will take more or less > time. I had no prior experience in modelling and building shapes=2C but > once I got the hang of it I could work pretty fast. Before I got it > right I built a dozen or so diffusing air inlets (in fruitless attempts > to get sufficient airflow through the thick radiator). The end result > with a thin radiator in line with the cowling belly is surprisingly > easy=2C much easier to build than all the carefully calculated and shaped > diffusers. Take a look at the Rotax equipped Diamond airplanes (super > Dimona=2C Katana) to get some inspiration. > I used a Laminova heat exchanger so I only had to care about cooling of > the coolant. > > Frans > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:09 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: New to List Jeremy=2C You will never use a step=2C or step on the wing. The easiest way to get in to the Europa is to sit on the wing=2C then swing in your right leg=2C push yourself up on the door sill=2C and bring in the left leg. Reverse when yo u get out. Find a completed Europa and try it. Karl > From: jffisher@gmail.com > Date: Thu=2C 4 Oct 2012 16:11:34 -0400 > To: Europa-List@matronics.com > > > I really want to thank the many people who answered my questions=2C you s aved me a lot of time=2C and I learned what I wanted. Very refreshing=2C n ot even the Lancair List was quite as quick in replying to questions. > > I also appreciate the comment to keep it as standard as possible. I real ly learned that lesson building the Lancair=2C which probably took twice as long as it could or should have=2C and it just got heavier! > > In summary=2C I will leave the intercooler out initially=2C I will leave the cockpit width as is=2C I now have the missing oil reservoir mount templ ate=2C and I got some excellent ideas for the autopilot mount. I am still thinking about about a step like the RV-7 but in front of the wing as a pos sibility=2C probably for later. > > Thanks to everyone. > > Jerry > On Oct 3=2C 2012=2C at 4:51 PM=2C Jeremy Fisher wrote: > > > I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most of the structure now complete. I am based at an Airpark on Cape Cod in the US=2C and previ ously built a Lancair 360. > > > > After going through the aircraft and all of the books=2C I have a coupl e of questions=2C and would be grateful for any inputs or advice. In parti cular: > > > > 1. I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914. Is it worth the hassle to f it an intercooler? The advice from the outfit that refurbished it is not t o bother=2C as the engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature o f the inlet air. > > > > 2. Access to the cockpit appears to be pretty awkward. Has anyone tri ed to install a step to assist=2C or is it easier to get in than it looks? In addition=2C do you need to reinforce the wing upper surface where you h ave to step to get in=2C or is it strong enough to take size 10 boots? > > > > 3. I am far from impressed by the cooling set up=2C and I know that lo ts of people have modified the standard system. Has anyone used the Lamino va oil to water cooler=2C and if so=2C which size did you use=2C and what w as the result? > > > > 4. Where can I find the pattern for the oil reservoir mounting plate? My manual refers to it=2C but it seems to be missing from my documentation .. > > > > 5. For those of you who are not cursed with the LAA=2C has anyone inst alled an autopilot pitch servo connected to the system without changing the lateral pitch tube as per the factory installation? It would be both expe nsive and fairly difficult for me to change it at this build stage. I am c onsidering a couple of alternatives and would like to learn from anyone els e's experience. > > > > 6. My wife and i are both pretty skinny (she is slender=2C i am skinny !). Do you find that widening the cockpit at the shoulders as per the Mod List is worth it=2C or do you not have any problem with the standard cockpi t in practice? > > > > Thank you for any advice that you can offer. > > > > Jerry Fisher > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List From: Jeremy Fisher Frans, Do you have any photos of your cooling set up available? Thanks. Jerry On Oct 4, 2012, at 4:56 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 10/04/2012 01:34 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > >> As to cooling. I have extensively modified my cooling with cowl flaps, >> lamovia heat exchanger, diffused inlets, intercooler and internal >> ducting. I have spent 12 months over 3 winters and countless hours on >> this and although I am close, its still not right. I would encourage >> you to think carefully before getting into complex modifications. > > Well, at least we can now tell what won't work. > > The main thing we found is that no matter what you try, the original > coolant radiator is just to thick to get both a decent low drag and > efficient air flow through it. Replace it with a thin radiator (as in > *every* commercial Rotax application I have seen) and from there you can > just optimize the cooling system by recycling the exit air for cowling > and turbo cooling and applying an adjustable cowl flap for temperature > regulation, and optimizing inlet and outlet for minimal drag. It will > give you superb cooling and add some knots to your airspeed at the same > time. > >> It you really want to get into this then don't do what I did, take a >> look at Fran's solution, but plan on adding 6 months to your build. > > Thanks! Well, 6 months is a little bit exaggarated once you know how to > do it, but of course you need to extensively modify the cowling, and > depending on your skills and experience this will take more or less > time. I had no prior experience in modelling and building shapes, but > once I got the hang of it I could work pretty fast. Before I got it > right I built a dozen or so diffusing air inlets (in fruitless attempts > to get sufficient airflow through the thick radiator). The end result > with a thin radiator in line with the cowling belly is surprisingly > easy, much easier to build than all the carefully calculated and shaped > diffusers. Take a look at the Rotax equipped Diamond airplanes (super > Dimona, Katana) to get some inspiration. > I used a Laminova heat exchanger so I only had to care about cooling of > the coolant. > > Frans > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.