---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/05/12: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:49 AM - Re: Re: New to List (craig) 2. 04:22 AM - Power Flarm antennas (mau11) 3. 05:15 AM - Re: New to List (Remi Guerner) 4. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: New to List (Raimo Toivio) 5. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: New to List (Frans Veldman) 6. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: New to List (Jeremy Fisher) 7. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: New to List (Frans Veldman) 8. 08:36 AM - Fw: Europa cooling (Frans Veldman) 9. 09:29 AM - Re: woodcomp repairs (graeme bird) 10. 09:35 AM - Re: Fw: Europa cooling (graeme bird) 11. 09:36 AM - Re: Fw: Europa cooling (graeme bird) 12. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Europa cooling (Frans Veldman) 13. 10:02 AM - Re: [Spam] New to List (Frans Veldman) 14. 10:57 AM - Re: Fw: Europa cooling (Jeremy Fisher) 15. 11:26 AM - Conversion Mono to Trike (david park) 16. 11:34 AM - Rough River (Steven Pitt) 17. 11:49 AM - Rough River (wingnut54@charter.net) 18. 11:52 AM - Re: Conversion Mono to Trike (Bob Harrison) 19. 12:03 PM - Re: Rough River (Jeffrey Roberts) 20. 12:06 PM - Re: Fw: Europa cooling (Frans Veldman) 21. 12:15 PM - Re: Rough River (Robert Borger) 22. 12:18 PM - Re: [Spam] New to List (Karl Heindl) 23. 12:22 PM - Re: Rough River (Jeff B) 24. 12:51 PM - Re: [Spam] New to List (Frans Veldman) 25. 02:55 PM - Re: Conversion Mono to Trike (phillik747) 26. 03:13 PM - Auxiliary Power Supply (Alan Carter) 27. 04:07 PM - Re: Rough River (Robert Borger) 28. 04:07 PM - Re: Power Flarm antennas (craig) 29. 05:10 PM - Re: Rough River (phillik747) 30. 05:42 PM - Re: Rough River (Dean Seitz) 31. 07:07 PM - Re: Fw: Europa cooling (Jeremy Fisher) 32. 08:20 PM - Re: Rough River (Jeffrey Roberts) 33. 11:42 PM - Re: New to List (Remi Guerner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:10 AM PST US From: "craig" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: New to List Jerry, you will find the list like this virtually all the time, many many people willing To share their experiences and knowledge as they can to help you get your baby flying ASAP I have been building for 5 years, almost ready for the paint, and have had quite a few questions Answered for me. Regards and good building craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Fisher Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 6:12 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: New to List I really want to thank the many people who answered my questions, you saved me a lot of time, and I learned what I wanted. Very refreshing, not even the Lancair List was quite as quick in replying to questions. I also appreciate the comment to keep it as standard as possible. I really learned that lesson building the Lancair, which probably took twice as long as it could or should have, and it just got heavier! In summary, I will leave the intercooler out initially, I will leave the cockpit width as is, I now have the missing oil reservoir mount template, and I got some excellent ideas for the autopilot mount. I am still thinking about about a step like the RV-7 but in front of the wing as a possibility, probably for later. Thanks to everyone. Jerry On Oct 3, 2012, at 4:51 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote: > I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most of the structure now complete. I am based at an Airpark on Cape Cod in the US, and previously built a Lancair 360. > > After going through the aircraft and all of the books, I have a couple of questions, and would be grateful for any inputs or advice. In particular: > > 1. I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914. Is it worth the hassle to fit an intercooler? The advice from the outfit that refurbished it is not to bother, as the engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature of the inlet air. > > 2. Access to the cockpit appears to be pretty awkward. Has anyone tried to install a step to assist, or is it easier to get in than it looks? In addition, do you need to reinforce the wing upper surface where you have to step to get in, or is it strong enough to take size 10 boots? > > 3. I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I know that lots of people have modified the standard system. Has anyone used the Laminova oil to water cooler, and if so, which size did you use, and what was the result? > > 4. Where can I find the pattern for the oil reservoir mounting plate? My manual refers to it, but it seems to be missing from my documentation. > > 5. For those of you who are not cursed with the LAA, has anyone installed an autopilot pitch servo connected to the system without changing the lateral pitch tube as per the factory installation? It would be both expensive and fairly difficult for me to change it at this build stage. I am considering a couple of alternatives and would like to learn from anyone else's experience. > > 6. My wife and i are both pretty skinny (she is slender, i am skinny!). Do you find that widening the cockpit at the shoulders as per the Mod List is worth it, or do you not have any problem with the standard cockpit in practice? > > Thank you for any advice that you can offer. > > Jerry Fisher ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:41 AM PST US From: mau11 Subject: Europa-List: Power Flarm antennas SGkgYWxsLA0KRG9lcyBhbnlvbmUgaGF2ZSBleHBlcmllbmNlIHdpdGggcG93ZXJGbGFybT8NCg0K V2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgYmVzdCBhbnRlbm5hcyBwb3NpdGlvbj8NCkkgdXNlIG9uZSBsYXN0IHdlZWsg YW5kIEkgcmVjZWl2ZSBzaWduYWwgb25seSB3aGVuIHR3byBhbnRlbm5hcyBhcmUgaW4gdmVydGlj YWwgcG9zaXRpb24uDQpXaGVuIHRoZSBwb3dlcmZsYXJtIGJvZHkgaXMgcG9zaXRpb25lZCBvbiB0 b3Agb2YgdGhlIHBhbmVsIGJlbG93IHdpbmRzY3JlZW4sIHdpdGggYW50ZW5uYXMgaW4gNDXCsCBw b3NpdGlvbiBubyBzaWduYWwuDQoNCk1hbnkgdGhhbmtzDQpNaWNoZWwgQVVWUkFZDQpGLVBGR1Qg LSAxNDU ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: New to List From: "Remi Guerner" Frans, I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the coolant exclusively. So I suppose the oil temp is higher than the coolant temp all the time. Am I right? What oil temp do you get when in a sustained climb at max continuous power? Remi Guerner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384686#384686 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: New to List From: Raimo Toivio Remi, you did not ask me but I will comment. I have had a Laminova in use since 2007 in my Europa (912S) over 330 flight hours. I am 100% happy. I installed Laminova because I did not like an idea about a separate oil-cooler. The oil temp follow always the water temp. When the water temp rises, the oil temp is bit lower, but it follows the water temp slowly and vice versa. Climbing with full power I have typically the oil temp around 115C. When very hot (+30C) and climbing continuously to the FLs, it can be near 130C but never over so far. It is better you know I have also a water thermostat - I really cannot understand an idea about water cooling w/o a water thermostat. With it, I am able to make looong idle dives near or at VNE (which I love) and still have water & oil temps well in limits. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT Finland 2012/10/5 Remi Guerner > > Frans, > > I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I understand > that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the coolant exclusively. So > I suppose the oil temp is higher than the coolant temp all the time. Am I > right? What oil temp do you get when in a sustained climb at max > continuous power? > > Remi Guerner > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384686#384686 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Terveisin, Raimo Toivio RWM-SYSTEMS "=E4lyk=E4st=E4 informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta 1980" 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 FINLAND p. 03 - 3753 777 f. 03 - 3753 100 www.rwm.fi info@rwm.fi ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:46 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: New to List On 10/05/2012 02:15 PM, Remi Guerner wrote: > I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I > understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the > coolant exclusively. So I suppose the oil temp is higher than the > coolant temp all the time. Am I right? That's right. Well, almost. With just the Laminova I get a delta-T of 10C. So, you can get your coolant up to 110C and the oil will stabilize at 120C. Note that this is rock steady, if the oil would climb to 130C the delta-T would double, hence the cooling capacity would double. So it is self stabilizing; you will not see much oil temp variation if you use a Laminova. However, I wanted a smaller delta-T, so at the exit of the Laminova I have a very small auxillary oil cooler to drop the oil temp with 5C. Note that this is not really required, but I don't want to cool the coolant more than necessary. I prefer to maintain an oil temp of 115C so this way I can allow the coolant to get to 110C. Otherwise I would have to keep the coolant at 105C, but this requires more cooling air flow and thus increases drag. Also, I like to run the engine at a higher temperature as this ensures a cleaner combustion and higher efficiency. > What oil temp do you get when > in a sustained climb at max continuous power? Full power or cruise power don't matter. With the cowl flap I can get any temperature I want. I usually pin the coolant to 110C, so the oil is then 115C. This is also true when climbing from sea level to FL95 with 100% power all the way up. I always maintain 110C coolant and 115C oil. During startup I open the cowl flap 1cm. I also open the intercooler valve. The intercooler extis inside the cowling so this provides more cowling air flow while still standing or taxiing. Flow through the coolant radiator is then minimized (the intercooler air flow increases the pressure behind the coolant radiator) and warm-up is fast. The oil is warmed up by the rapidly heating coolant. Within a few minutes I have everything heated up sufficiently to take off. During the run-up I open up the cowl flap halfway (this is usually sufficient, unless it is extremely hot) and keep the intercooler valve fully open. When I level off for cruise I close the intercooler (since it is now useless and it uses the same cowl flap exit as the coolant radiator) and I close the cowl flap to about 1cm. Closing the intercooler increases the flow through the coolant radiator, but by closing the cowl flap I reduce the flow to what is necessary to maintain a coolant temp of 110C. This setting also provides minimal aerodynamic drag. During flight I can fine tune the temperatures with the cowl flap setting. When descending for landing I open up the intercooler valve. This reduces the flow through the coolant radiator, so the temperature doesn't drop too fast. At the same time it increases the flow through the cowling, to draw as much as possible the accumulated heat away, to prepare it for the anticipated full stop. Also, opening the intercooler valve ensures that I have full boost power available in case of a go around. After touch down but before shutting down the engine I open the cowl flap fully and allow the coolant and oil temp to drop. That's right, on the ground I have sufficient cooling to get the temperatures out of the green arc... on the underside of it. The Laminova offers many advantages: 1) Eliminating the oil radiator and its associated air duct workings. It also means more freedom in positioning of the cooler and hose routings. 2) Eliminating the oil thermostat as the oil is now warmed up by the coolant (which is even faster than the oil thermostat can achieve). 3) Faster warm up times. Oil is actively heated up by the coolant. 4) Tight coupling of coolant and oil temperatures. This reduces stress on the engine and makes temperature management easier. 5) Self stabilizing effect. Suppose the coolant is 110C and the oil is 120C. If the oil temp would increase 1C this is an increase of 10% of the cooling capacity. With air cooling instead (20C ambient temperature) this would only increase the delta-T and thus cooling capacity with 1%. With the Laminova the throttle setting has no significant effect on oil temperature. There are two disadvantages as well: 1) Loss of coolant means also loss of oil cooling capacity. Loss of coolant means you are going to land asap anyway, so this is hardly a disadvantage. 2) You can't use Evans coolant. The passages in the Laminova are just too thin. Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:52 AM PST US From: Jeremy Fisher Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: New to List Raimo, Do you have any photos of the Laminova unit installed? Jerry On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > Remi, > > you did not ask me but I will comment. > > I have had a Laminova in use since 2007 in my Europa (912S) over 330 flight hours. I am 100% happy. I installed Laminova because I did not like an idea about a separate oil-cooler. The oil temp follow always the water temp. When the water temp rises, the oil temp is bit lower, but it follows the water temp slowly and vice versa. > > Climbing with full power I have typically the oil temp around 115C. When very hot (+30C) and climbing continuously to the FLs, it can be near 130C but never over so far. > > It is better you know I have also a water thermostat - I really cannot understand an idea about water cooling w/o a water thermostat. With it, I am able to make looong idle dives near or at VNE (which I love) and still have water & oil temps well in limits. > > Cheers, > > Raimo > OH-XRT > Finland > > > > > > 2012/10/5 Remi Guerner > > Frans, > > I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the coolant exclusively. So I suppose the oil temp is higher than the coolant temp all the time. Am I right? What oil temp do you get when in a sustained climb at max continuous power? > > Remi Guerner > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384686#384686 > > > > > > > > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > > -- > Terveisin, > Raimo Toivio > > RWM-SYSTEMS > "=E4lyk=E4st=E4 informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta 1980" > > 37500 Lemp=E4=E4l=E4 > FINLAND > > p. 03 - 3753 777 > f. 03 - 3753 100 > > www.rwm.fi > info@rwm.fi > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:06 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: New to List On 10/05/2012 04:31 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > It is better you know I have also a water thermostat - I really cannot > understand an idea about water cooling w/o a water thermostat. A cowl flap has the same effect. But a cowl flap has the additional advantage that you block off the unnecessary air flow through the radiator. Dragging air through a radiator comes with an aerodynamic penalty. With a water thermostat, you are blocking the water flow, but still have the full amount of aerodynamic drag. For the rest I agree fully that I don't see how you can have proper temperature control without either a thermostat or cowl flap. Too bad that the intended air race between you and me at Texel didn't go through. We were busy amusing ourselves with some other things, see: http://youtu.be/rP2GkueyFBo http://youtu.be/YMhiLSEjGKE http://youtu.be/s5bYVhaIJ0E In the afternoon we had to go home, we wanted to say goodbye to you and your lovely daughter but we couldn't find you anywhere. :-( Next time we do some racing! Maybe in Finland if the weather cooperates! Frans ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:36 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Fwd: Europa cooling Hi everyone, I got numerous requests for pictures, so I assume this is of "general interest". I still plan to write an article about this, but so far I didn't find the time. So, for all of you who are through waiting, here some low quality pictures to get some idea of what I have done. I'm reluctant to show these pictures, these pictures were taken when the work was still in progress, to discuss these things in a private group. Since then the cowling has been cleaned up, received a new finish and paint. For the final pictures I will also choose a more appealing background and clean up the tools. ;-) On some of the pictures you still see two small holes where the original cowling vents once were. These holes proved to be unnecessary and have been eliminated in the final version. The two ram air inlets and radiator inlet are the only air entries in the cowling. The air exiting the radiator also takes the heat of the exhaust, turbo and silencer with it. No further cowling cooling was necessary. The two lower ram air inlets: The starboard inlet is for the engine air and via a butterfly valve to the intercooler. The port inlet is for cylinder cooling air. A few pictures show the cowl flap wide open. Due to the length of the cowl flap the angle is still moderate and it looks like it is only a little bit open. Also some pictures with the exhaust augmenter. And of course the interior of the cowling, to see how I have set up the intercooler and cylinder cooling. Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: woodcomp repairs From: "graeme bird" nobody hurt, just my pocket, my pride and my back from flagellation. ha -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384720#384720 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:09 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fwd: Europa cooling From: "graeme bird" nice pics, what diameter prop have you got there? I have two good wide woodcomp blades. I was told at 1625 they would not be effective on anything. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384722#384722 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:44 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fwd: Europa cooling From: "graeme bird" nice pics, what diameter prop have you got there? I have two good wide woodcomp blades. I was told at 1625 they would not be effective on anything. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Woodcomp 3000/W Newby: 35 hours g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384723#384723 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:09 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fwd: Europa cooling On 10/05/2012 06:36 PM, graeme bird wrote: > nice pics, what diameter prop have you got there? I have two good > wide woodcomp blades. I was told at 1625 they would not be effective > on anything. I have the largest diameter available (I don't remember how much that is). In fact, I had to extent the nose wheel shaft to keep enough clearance margin on a rough strip with a flat tire. The prop performs very well though. With two blades vs three there is a bit more vibration but there is one less prop leading edge plowing through the air, reducing some prop drag. Frans ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:11 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List On 10/04/2012 10:18 PM, Karl Heindl wrote: > Could you give us the details and source of the thin radiator ? This custom made radiator is made by a Czech company, www.aluminiumracing.com (see their pictures of Rotax radiators). This is basically the "standard" Rotax radiator, as recommended by Rotax and used in practically all commercial applications. (You may not be aware of this, but Rotax is a very common engine in Europe, many (commercial) airplanes use this engine. Normally, the Rotax is used with the factory radiator, which is made by this Czech company. As far as I know all these airplanes use the same radiator, the Europa is the only exception I know off... with hilarious results). I had the stock radiator enlarged for additional capacity to cope with the addition of the heat of the oil to the coolant due to the heat exchanger. In hindsight this probably wasn't necessary but I was sick of cooling problems at that time and wouldn't want to risk yet another failure. So, I just ordered the stock radiator but with a few extra rows in it, and had the ports in a slight angle to make hose routing easier, and got two bleed ports on it for draining and getting the air out. For the rest it is stock. I paid 300 Euro's for it. Quality and service is outstanding, so I feel the radiator is worth its price. They now have my modified radiator in their database. Just mention my name (or call-sign) and they will answer all your questions, and should be able to crank out an exact copy. The outer dimensions are 41 x 19 (including mounting bosses), the working surface is 34 x 15. All dimensions are in cm's. If you need more info just let me know. Frans ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: Europa cooling From: Jeremy Fisher Frans, Thanks for posting the photos. That is an impressive scheme that you created, especially as it obviously works. As a matter of interest, what difference do you see in aircraft performance? Your cooling drag must be well down on the standard scheme. Jerry On Oct 5, 2012, at 12:27 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I got numerous requests for pictures, so I assume this is of "general > interest". > > I still plan to write an article about this, but so far I didn't find > the time. > > So, for all of you who are through waiting, here some low quality > pictures to get some idea of what I have done. > > I'm reluctant to show these pictures, these pictures were taken when the > work was still in progress, to discuss these things in a private group. > Since then the cowling has been cleaned up, received a new finish and > paint. For the final pictures I will also choose a more appealing > background and clean up the tools. ;-) > > On some of the pictures you still see two small holes where the original > cowling vents once were. These holes proved to be unnecessary and have > been eliminated in the final version. > > The two ram air inlets and radiator inlet are the only air entries in > the cowling. The air exiting the radiator also takes the heat of the > exhaust, turbo and silencer with it. No further cowling cooling was > necessary. > > The two lower ram air inlets: > The starboard inlet is for the engine air and via a butterfly valve to > the intercooler. > The port inlet is for cylinder cooling air. > > A few pictures show the cowl flap wide open. Due to the length of the > cowl flap the angle is still moderate and it looks like it is only a > little bit open. > > Also some pictures with the exhaust augmenter. > > And of course the interior of the cowling, to see how I have set up the > intercooler and cylinder cooling. > > Frans > > > > > <20110523_003.jpg><20110523_005.jpg><20110523_007.jpg><20110523_008.jpg><20110523_009.jpg><20110523_010.jpg><20110523_011.jpg><20110523_015.jpg> ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:28 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Conversion Mono to Trike From: david park Looking for ideas from anyone who has converted a Mono to a Trike u/c? ie. How did you cover the Mono hole? Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:14 AM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Europa-List: Rough River I hope all you guys and gals are having a great time at Rough River this weekend. The weather has turned sour here in the UK so lets hope you are getting the fair winds and good warm sunshine you deserve. Best wishes Steve Pitt Chairman Europa Club G-SMDH Trigear XS ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:30 AM PST US From: "wingnut54@charter.net" Subject: Europa-List: Rough River V2UncmUgaGVyZSEhICBSb29tIDI1NSBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBzdG9wIGluLgpUcm95IGFuZCBE b25uYQomIExpbCBHcmFjZQoKU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFUuUy4gQ2VsbHVsYXLCriBBbmRyb2lkLXBv d2VyZWQgZGV2aWNl ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:26 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Conversion Mono to Trike Hi! David I made a "belly plate" but mostly from the piece which had been cut out for the mono construction. In fact most of my fuel system module is now fixed to it. Now I decided that G-PTAG would never now fly (or attempt to fly!) as a mono ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of david park Sent: 05 October 2012 19:26 Subject: Europa-List: Conversion Mono to Trike Looking for ideas from anyone who has converted a Mono to a Trike u/c? ie. How did you cover the Mono hole? Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:05 PM PST US From: Jeffrey Roberts Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Troy and all at RR, I only wish I could be there. Gold Rush is getting a new engine and down for some other things right now. We're living in FL now and hope to be up and running soon. Have a great weekend at RR and make sure someone post some pictures soon. Best Regards, Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush On Oct 5, 2012, at 1:49 PM, wingnut54@charter.net wrote: > We're here!! Room 255 if you want to stop in. > Troy and Donna > & Lil Grace > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular=AE Android-powered device > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:01 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: Europa cooling On 10/05/2012 07:56 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote: > Thanks for posting the photos. That is an impressive scheme that you > created, especially as it obviously works. As a matter of interest, > what difference do you see in aircraft performance? Your cooling > drag must be well down on the standard scheme. I think it is, but of course it is hard to measure and judge. We also have an efficient prop and Fred Klein's wing root fairings. On the other hand the aircraft is a tri-gear, hi-top, and quite heavy. We never flew with the stock cooling configuration, or without the wing root fairings, etc. We usually cruise with 27" to 28" of manifold pressure, and see an IAS of about 130 knots at MTOW. At 100% we see a speed of 157 knots. Usually at FL95 or so we see cruise speeds of 140-160 knots. Measuring speeds drive me nuts. The aircraft seems to stick to a certain speed, but pull up, dive down, and after the dive the aircraft maintains a much higher speed than before the dive. I have heard this from more people. Anyone who knows the cause? And then it looks like more weight in the back is beneficial, but only to a certain point. I'm still at a loss about how to get the best speeds. Frans ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:06 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River SSdtIG9uIHRoZSB3YXkuICBTaG91bGQgYXJyaXZlIGFyb3VuZCAxODAwIGhycy4NCg0KQm9iIEJv cmdlcg0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgaVBob25lDQoNCk9uIE9jdCA1LCAyMDEyLCBhdCAxMzo0OSwg IndpbmdudXQ1NEBjaGFydGVyLm5ldCIgPHdpbmdudXQ1NEBjaGFydGVyLm5ldD4gd3JvdGU6DQoN Cj4gV2UncmUgaGVyZSEhICBSb29tIDI1NSBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBzdG9wIGluLg0KPiBUcm95 IGFuZCBEb25uYQ0KPiAmIExpbCBHcmFjZQ0KPiANCj4gU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFUuUy4gQ2VsbHVs YXLCriBBbmRyb2lkLXBvd2VyZWQgZGV2aWNlDQo+IGt5wrfDqMW+w5siw43DrcWTwqJaK8OTTTTD k0fDmnHDpyjCusK4xb7CrnfCsHLigLnCq+KAsMOqw5PigKbDoS7CrsWgWi4rLRJmwqLigJ1aK8K6 ZSx6w5heMcKra8KieMWTwrDCuMKswrRXxaHCtsOqw57CsMOWwq/FoAbCrcKiwrtobsK6MMKxw6th embCp8OIwrjCrMK2w6ti4oCTK2J6w4suchbCrC4rLVJ/w5LCucK7HMKuKm3FoOKAsMOAwq3DiGLC vcOkxb5qwrchDsWSJ+KAk+KAoMKdw6w2wrIGwrowwrHDoMKhasORQEDDuGjCtuKAuSFqwrfFocKd w5nCrnIZwq5yGcKowq3DpsKhwq3Dp8OhwrbDmn/Dvwww4oSiwqtrwqJ4xZPCscOKJsO8w5bCr8Wg BsKtwqLCsS7CrsWgWi4rLeKAoMObacO/w7www4Jmwq3CruKAsMOicsOHKOKAusOzWsK+KBrCtsWg w4TCusK6KWjCuMKswrfDtsWSATRONOKCrOKAmVhARTkVDEkmwqZ6IMOeasOXKMW+w5fCp8K1wqls wqHCq8OaxaBW4oC64oCiw6vDomrDmF5Zw6bDhcKiwrvCpsKxwqhrecO4bcK2xbjDv37FoMOuxaHD icWhwrbCuifigLDDixzComhtwrbFuMO/fsWgw67FocOJxaHCtsK6J+KAsMOLHMKib8OaListIOKA sMOtwq4mw67CtionWcOmw5LFoMOX4oCc4oCmwqnDpMOK4oC5xbjCosK8wqjCusK4HsKdw6rDqMK6 w4suwqbFoSvCtMOGwq3CtDrDmuKAk1figLnFoMOLQHZowqdqGsOefhttwqfDv8Oww4MJxaHCtsK6 J+KAsMOLHMKib8OcwqJ7a+KAsMK7wq3FoOKAsMOhwrbDmn/Dvwww4oSiwqtrwqJ4xZPCscOKJsO9 w4onwrbCuOKAusK6w5jCqMW4w7bCv2/Dt8Ooxb7Dn8Opwq3Dr8ObwqHDnMK/4oCgw5nCpQ0K ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:24 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List Frans=2C Thank you for that. I am going to order one. It is actually a lot cheaper t han the direct replacement.I had to make a forced landing on a rolling farm field. Amongst other things it destroyed the central rear part of the cowl ing=2C bent the two radiators and the aluminium duct. So this is a good tim e to make similar changes to what you had done. Karl > Date: Fri=2C 5 Oct 2012 19:53:42 +0200 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List > > > On 10/04/2012 10:18 PM=2C Karl Heindl wrote: > > > Could you give us the details and source of the thin radiator ? > > This custom made radiator is made by a Czech company=2C > www.aluminiumracing.com (see their pictures of Rotax radiators). > > This is basically the "standard" Rotax radiator=2C as recommended by Rota x > and used in practically all commercial applications. (You may not be > aware of this=2C but Rotax is a very common engine in Europe=2C many > (commercial) airplanes use this engine. Normally=2C the Rotax is used wit h > the factory radiator=2C which is made by this Czech company. As far as I > know all these airplanes use the same radiator=2C the Europa is the only > exception I know off... with hilarious results). I had the stock > radiator enlarged for additional capacity to cope with the addition of > the heat of the oil to the coolant due to the heat exchanger. In > hindsight this probably wasn't necessary but I was sick of cooling > problems at that time and wouldn't want to risk yet another failure. > > So=2C I just ordered the stock radiator but with a few extra rows in it =2C > and had the ports in a slight angle to make hose routing easier=2C and go t > two bleed ports on it for draining and getting the air out. For the rest > it is stock. > > I paid 300 Euro's for it. Quality and service is outstanding=2C so I feel > the radiator is worth its price. > > They now have my modified radiator in their database. Just mention my > name (or call-sign) and they will answer all your questions=2C and should > be able to crank out an exact copy. > > The outer dimensions are 41 x 19 (including mounting bosses)=2C the > working surface is 34 x 15. All dimensions are in cm's. If you need more > info just let me know. > > Frans > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:05 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Baby Blue is in much the same condition. At the airport we discovered substantial wiring damage (rats) and will be down until it's all repaired. Ya'll have fun! Jeff On 10/5/2012 2:02 PM, Jeffrey Roberts wrote: > Troy and all at RR, > I only wish I could be there. Gold Rush is getting a new engine and down > for some other things right now. We're living in FL now and hope to be > up and running soon. > Have a great weekend at RR and make sure someone post some pictures soon. > > Best Regards, > > Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush > > > On Oct 5, 2012, at 1:49 PM, wingnut54@charter.net > wrote: > >> We're here!! Room 255 if you want to stop in. >> Troy and Donna >> & Lil Grace >> >> /Sent from my U.S. Cellular Android-powered device/ >> * >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * > > * > > > * > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:11 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: [Spam] Europa-List: New to List On 10/05/2012 09:18 PM, Karl Heindl wrote: > Thank you for that. I am going to order one. It is actually a lot > cheaper than the direct replacement. Of course you also need the Laminova heat exchanger. > I had to make a forced landing on a rolling farm field. Amongst other > things it destroyed the central rear part of the cowling, bent the two > radiators and the aluminium duct. I hope you didn't suffer too much other damage? What is a "rolling" farm field? What was the reason of the forced landing? > So this is a good time to make similar > changes to what you had done. Guess it is. If you really want to copy what I have done, you probably need more information. Feel free to contact me off list if you want to. Frans ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:45 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Conversion Mono to Trike From: "phillik747" I received an email from Bud about this: Bud Yerly wrote: > Make a glass cover that fits the hole out of three sheets of bid laid up on a flat surface. After cure, hold it up to the bottom of the plane and mark the contour. Cut and approximate the fit. It should be near level with the lower surface and quite tight. I add an access hole. I also make a bulkhead just aft of the nose gear as a firewall. I cover the new firewall with firewall material such as from Aircraft Spruce. > > Then I make a 1/8 inch ply or metal access hole cover to me for access later on. I use a 6 inch by 12 inch 3/32 inch aluminum or plywood plate with rounded corners. Cut out the access hole the size of the plate plus 1/8 inch. Cover the plate edge with about 1/6 inch of blue painters tape and fold over to make a nice edge that will allow clearance. Cover the plate with release tape. Flox the edge of the cover and then lay three layers of glass tape around the plate on the flat sheet on the table to make a nice recessed plate. Prep the area for glassing by removing the old paint. Put the new fiberglass piece in the hole and tack with 5 minute, or super glue as close to level as possible. Then glass it in. Some prefer to glass it in over the outside and others lay tapes on the inside to glass it in to reduce filling and sanding. Fill sand prime and paint.. http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=101142 http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=101145&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 Kyle -------- Kyle Europa Tri-gear (under construction) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384750#384750 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:54 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Auxiliary Power Supply From: "Alan Carter" Hi All I want to install two cigar lighter power supplies in the instrument panel. Usage will mainly be to charge my iPad and Phone, or maybe other things. I was planing to run a cable (aircraft cable ??? watts) directly from the Battery + and return to the Battery - with an in-line fuse, Amps ??? The Battery is located in the rear fuselage . Any Comments or Help. Alan [/u] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384752#384752 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:03 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River QXJyaXZlZCwgcm9vbSAyNTcuICBIYXZlIGdhcyBjYW5zICYgYmVlci4NCg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15 IGlQaG9uZQ0KDQpPbiBPY3QgNSwgMjAxMiwgYXQgMTQ6MTQsIFJvYmVydCBCb3JnZXIgPHJsYm9y Z2VyQG1hYy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+IEknbSBvbiB0aGUgd2F5LiAgU2hvdWxkIGFycml2ZSBh cm91bmQgMTgwMCBocnMuDQo+IA0KPiBCb2IgQm9yZ2VyDQo+IA0KPiBTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgaVBo b25lDQo+IA0KPiBPbiBPY3QgNSwgMjAxMiwgYXQgMTM6NDksICJ3aW5nbnV0NTRAY2hhcnRlci5u ZXQiIDx3aW5nbnV0NTRAY2hhcnRlci5uZXQ+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4+IFdlJ3JlIGhlcmUhISAg Um9vbSAyNTUgaWYgeW91IHdhbnQgdG8gc3RvcCBpbi4NCj4+IFRyb3kgYW5kIERvbm5hDQo+PiAm IExpbCBHcmFjZQ0KPj4gDQo+PiBTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgVS5TLiBDZWxsdWxhcsKuIEFuZHJvaWQt cG93ZXJlZCBkZXZpY2UNCj4+IGt5wrfDqMW+w5siw43DrcWTwqJaK8OTTTTDk0fDmnHDpyjCusK4 xb7CrnfCsHLigLnCq+KAsMOqw5PigKbDoS7CrsWgWi4rLRJmwqLigJ1aK8K6ZSx6w5heMcKra8Ki eMWTwrDCuMKswrRXxaHCtsOqw57CsMOWwq/FoAbCrcKiwrtobsK6MMKxw6thembCp8OIwrjCrMK2 w6ti4oCTK2J6w4suchbCrC4rLVJ/w5LCucK7HMKuKm3FoOKAsMOAwq3DiGLCvcOkxb5qwrchDsWS J+KAk+KAoMKdw6w2wrIGwrowwrHDoMKhasORQEDDuGjCtuKAuSFqwrfFocKdw5nCrnIZwq5yGcKo wq3DpsKhwq3Dp8OhwrbDmn/Dvwww4oSiwqtrwqJ4xZPCscOKJsO8w5bCr8WgBsKtwqLCsS7CrsWg Wi4rLeKAoMObacO/w7www4Jmwq3CruKAsMOicsOHKOKAusOzWsK+KBrCtsWgw4TCusK6KWjCuMKs wrfDtsWSATRONOKCrOKAmVhARTkVDEkmwqZ6IMOeasOXKMW+w5fCp8K1wqlswqHCq8OaxaBW4oC6 4oCiw6vDomrDmF5Zw6bDhcKiwrvCpsKxwqhrecO4bcK2xbjDv37FoMOuxaHDicWhwrbCuifigLDD ixzComhtwrbFuMO/fsWgw67FocOJxaHCtsK6J+KAsMOLHMKib8OaListIOKAsMOtwq4mw67Ction WcOmw5LFoMOX4oCc4oCmwqnDpMOK4oC5xbjCosK8wqjCusK4HsKdw6rDqMK6w4suwqbFoSvCtMOG wq3CtDrDmuKAk1figLnFoMOLQHZowqdqGsOefhttwqfDv8Oww4MJxaHCtsK6J+KAsMOLHMKib8Oc wqJ7a+KAsMK7wq3FoOKAsMOhwrbDmn/Dvwww4oSiwqtrwqJ4xZPCscOKJsO9w4onwrbCuOKAusK6 w5jCqMW4w7bCv2/Dt8Ooxb7Dn8Opwq3Dr8ObwqHDnMK/4oCgw5nCpQ0K ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:03 PM PST US From: "craig" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Power Flarm antennas I have a full wave loop antenna, it fits neatly behind the baggage bay bulkhead. Inside the garage, doors closed With the airport 29.6km (according to google maps) off my starboard wing, the ATIS is so strong MAX squelch still Doesn=99t cut the transmission off. I am told that the reception should be degraded to port and starboard because of the loop giving Best reception/ trans through the hole in the middle (ie fore/aft), keep in mind that comm. Signals are vertically polarized so if your antenna Is laying flat on top of the panel the reception might be effected. Good luck craig From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mau11 Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 9:22 PM Subject: Europa-List: Power Flarm antennas Hi all, Does anyone have experience with powerFlarm? What is the best antennas position? I use one last week and I receive signal only when two antennas are in vertical position. When the powerflarm body is positioned on top of the panel below windscreen, with antennas in 45=C2=B0 position no signal. Many thanks Michel AUVRAY F-PFGT - 145 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 10/04/12 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:17 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rough River From: "phillik747" Wish I could be there but my Europa is still in the crib. Have fun, maybe one year I can get my Uncle to pick me up in his Europa and take me up there. Kyle -------- Kyle Europa Tri-gear (under construction) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384757#384757 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:50 PM PST US From: Dean Seitz Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River Where in Fl are you? Dean Seitz ---- Jeffrey Roberts wrote: > Troy and all at RR, > I only wish I could be there. Gold Rush is getting a new engine and down for some other things right now. We're living in FL now and hope to be up and running soon. > Have a great weekend at RR and make sure someone post some pictures soon. > > Best Regards, > > Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush > > > > On Oct 5, 2012, at 1:49 PM, wingnut54@charter.net wrote: > > > We're here!! Room 255 if you want to stop in. > > Troy and Donna > > & Lil Grace > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular Android-powered device > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: Europa cooling From: Jeremy Fisher Frans, I will probably regret this, but I will make some guesses as to why climbing and then diving causes the speed to increase. It sounds to me as though you are seeing the airflow boundary layer detaching early somewhere on the airframe at lower speed. Then when you accelerate after climbing then diving the flow is staying attached. I cannot think of anything else that would explain what you are describing. Early airflow separation can cause a considerable increase in drag. There may be another clue when you say that when you move the CG back, the speed increases to a point. By doing this, you are decreasing longitudinal static stability, but also reducing the download on the tailplane (or horizontal stab), causing a reduction in drag. Once the tailplane is aligned with the airflow, you have minimum drag from it. Move the CG back further the effect will taper off. So it just could be that the airflow is detaching early on the lower surface of the tailplane in level flight at your initial cruising speed, increasing drag. By climbing, then accelerating in a dive, you may be allowing the airflow to stay attached later on the tailplane, reducing the drag. Then the reduced drag would allow you to maintain the increased speed. That is only a guess, and I have not flown a Europa so am free to speak through ignorance! You can check if I am right by carefully measuring the fore and aft position of the stick before you start the climb, then again once it is back in level flight after the dive. If it is slightly further forward after the dive, then this would confirm my guess. If this does turn out to be the case, you might be able to delay the airflow separating by using small vortex generators on the bottom of the tailplane. An example for a different reason can be seen on the Zenith STOL aircraft (to allow earlier rotation on take off). You can see this at http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/pic09/vg701elevator.jpg . Now you can all tell me that I am wrong, and why!! Not many GA aircraft use an all-moving tail, and this may just be a side effect of that. Jerry On Oct 5, 2012, at 3:57 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 10/05/2012 07:56 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote: > >> Thanks for posting the photos. That is an impressive scheme that you >> created, especially as it obviously works. As a matter of interest, >> what difference do you see in aircraft performance? Your cooling >> drag must be well down on the standard scheme. > > I think it is, but of course it is hard to measure and judge. We also > have an efficient prop and Fred Klein's wing root fairings. On the other > hand the aircraft is a tri-gear, hi-top, and quite heavy. We never flew > with the stock cooling configuration, or without the wing root fairings, > etc. > We usually cruise with 27" to 28" of manifold pressure, and see an IAS > of about 130 knots at MTOW. At 100% we see a speed of 157 knots. > > Usually at FL95 or so we see cruise speeds of 140-160 knots. > > Measuring speeds drive me nuts. The aircraft seems to stick to a certain > speed, but pull up, dive down, and after the dive the aircraft maintains > a much higher speed than before the dive. I have heard this from more > people. Anyone who knows the cause? And then it looks like more weight > in the back is beneficial, but only to a certain point. I'm still at a > loss about how to get the best speeds. > > Frans > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River From: Jeffrey Roberts Hi Dean, I'm in Zephyrhills just a few minutes from the airport. Sent from my mobile device. On Oct 5, 2012, at 8:42 PM, Dean Seitz wrote: > > > Where in Fl are you? > > Dean Seitz > > > ---- Jeffrey Roberts wrote: >> Troy and all at RR, >> I only wish I could be there. Gold Rush is getting a new engine and down for some other things right now. We're living in FL now and hope to be up and running soon. >> Have a great weekend at RR and make sure someone post some pictures soon. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush >> >> >> >> On Oct 5, 2012, at 1:49 PM, wingnut54@charter.net wrote: >> >>> We're here!! Room 255 if you want to stop in. >>> Troy and Donna >>> & Lil Grace >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular Android-powered device > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:55 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: New to List From: "Remi Guerner" Frans and Raimo, Thank you for your detailed answers regarding the Laminova. So you are both running with oil and coolant temperatures close to the red lines. Keep in mind that high coolant temp/CHT reduce your margin against detonation and high oil temp reduces the viscosity and makes the oil to age quicker, both factors affecting the lubricant properties. I would not be comfortable flying continuously with such high temperatures. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384771#384771 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.