Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:38 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Duncan & Ami)
2. 03:20 AM - Re: Bud (Alan Carter)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Pete)
4. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
5. 12:51 PM - Questions from Rough River (Troy Maynor)
6. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bob Harrison)
7. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Pete)
8. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly)
9. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly)
10. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly)
11. 05:19 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
12. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bob Harrison)
13. 06:14 PM - Re: Questions from Rough River (duanefamly@aol.com)
14. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Tim Ward)
15. 09:15 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Kingsley Hurst)
16. 10:33 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bud Yerly)
Message 1
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<<Perfect answer Nev..>>
Not quite.
<<..Back then, we didn't take into account that builders would take it
apart
/ reassemble / take apart / reassemble it the wrong way round / take
apart /
reassemble and wear the holes .......... >>
I don't believe the parts manufacturing execution was up to the mark.
In my own case the pins were taken out from the pre-assembled torque
tube
assembly and put back in once. Only. And in the correct holes. Looseness
appeared as soon as the jointing compound that I used between the tubes
let
go, then got worse.
Further, I don't believe the originals were a reamed fit; merely drilled
(albeit with a decently sharp drill) but the edge of the holes had then
been
enthusiastically deburred, thereby removing locally a significant amount
of
tube wall thickness where the pins bear.
I replaced 400 hours ago with oversize pins driven in with a hammer.
There
has been no subsequent degradation of fit.
So, the design was OK, but not the execution of the parts; be that at
the
Factory or maybe in some cases compounded by the builder.
Duncan McF.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Trevor Pond
Sent: 13 October 2012 09:13
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
Perfect answer Nev.
Best regards
Trev
Sent from my iPhone
On 12 Oct 2012, at 21:48, Neville Eyre <neveyre@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Alan,
It's a pity you were not available when we were working on the design
and
manufacturing process all those years ago, we could have done with an
expert
to help. Sorting out all of the thousands of items with your help would
have
been welcome.
Everything could have been made bullet proof, trouble is the Europa
would
have weighed perhaps 1200 + pounds, with little payload ?
A number of options are available to you.
1]. Submit your new [improved] design to L.A.A. you might get it through
in
a year or two ?
2]. Call Karen at Europa, have your Credit Card ready, and order one of
the
new [ improved] torque tube assemblies. With hindsight, and less
pressure 18
years on, Europa have done a re design on this. Back then, we didn't
take
into account that builders would take it apart / reasemble / take apart
/
reasemble it the wrong way round / take apart / reassemble and wear the
holes .......... or they would smack the mass balance weights onto the
stop..... If you take this option, you might have to ream out the bores
of
the TP5 /TP6 sleeves in your tailplanes to allow the torque tube to
slide
on easily, as they were matched to each individual torque tube. Easy but
time consuming, with a broom handle and emery cloth.
Almost certainly you will need to sweat out the TP13 bushes [ the four
1/4''
bore drive bushes in the inboard rib] and re pot them to match the drive
pins, simple job with a heat gun and 1/4'' bolt, and some epoxy. This
heavy
duty item is, funnily enough, heavier.
3]. Remove the entire torque tube assembly, mark everything as to their
orientation [ horn , drive plates and nylon spacers relative to the
torque
tube] and establish the scale of the wear [in the holes, not the pins].
If
the pins are the original 1/4'', and the holes are not too worn [ they
might
be now if you have been swinging on the tail to check wear] the next
size up
was 5/16''. Not sure if these are available from Europa, as they go
directly
to 10mm now, bigger is better, but doesn't give you another shot at it
if
you mess up on reassembly. The new holes in the tube / fiting need to
be an
interference fit, as in if you can push the pin in by hand, the jobs
buggered before you fit them. I have just done this job last week to a
monowheel with 800+ hours on it. very slight play but as it was in my
workshop it made sense to sort it for another 800 hours life.
Get a machine shop to ream the holes out to 0.007'' smaller than the
pins
ACTUALLY MEASURE, and make sure you don't lose the relative positions
of
the fittings when this is being done. If there is significant play
between
the drive plates, ensure they are clocked to be in allignment with each
other during the drilling process. DON'T trial fit the pins ! It is a
once
ony job ! On reinstallation, to drive the pins in you will need a 4lb
copper
hammer.With the nip of the tube on the pin, it will need a firm wallop
to
drive the pins in, should be a '' doink, doink, doink, donk '' Mark with
a
felt pen on the head of the pins the axis of the split pin hole so you
can
have them vertical when you insert them, it helps to taper the lead end
of
the pin back to the split pin hole to assist insertion, and lube the pin
with thin oil.
Depending on whether the original builder put the inspection / view
panels
in the place described in the Build Manual, or chose to delete / move
them,
this is either a 3 hour each way job + the machining work, or a couple
of
days marathon swearing session.
This work will need inspecting, and entering in the aircrafts Log Book.
Regards,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 23:54
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
<alancarteresq@onetel.net>
Hi Brian.
To me it feels like play, i will check again, and slide the Stablators
off
and
check inserts making sure they are bonded.
I am just a pilot but i could have done a better job in designing this
linkage.
As this has the possibility of grounding the aircraft for some
considerable
time, due to the fact that clamps are individually made to size, Why
has,t
something not been done about it.??
Why can,t you get a complete unit with clamps already made, so the job
could
be
done in one go, say a day, not grounded for 2 months.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385078#385078
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 2
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Hello Richard.
I have just read your post, I did not know Bud unwell as is your posting.
Bud if you get this please get well soon, we need some expertise and your the man.
So Bud get well soon.
Wishing you the best.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385277#385277
Message 3
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I fully understand the requirement for an interference pin fit to avoid the h
ammering out of the holes over time.
That said, could "taper pins" be used?
cheers,
Pete
On Oct 14, 2012, at 4:37 AM, "Duncan & Ami" <ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net> wro
te:
> <<Perfect answer Nev..>>
> Not quite.
> <<..Back then, we didn't take into account that builders would take it apa
rt / reassemble / take apart / reassemble it the wrong way round / take apar
t / reassemble and wear the holes .......... >>
>
> I don't believe the parts manufacturing execution was up to the mark.
> In my own case the pins were taken out from the pre-assembled torque tube a
ssembly and put back in once. Only. And in the correct holes. Looseness appe
ared as soon as the jointing compound that I used between the tubes let go, t
hen got worse.
> Further, I don't believe the originals were a reamed fit; merely drilled (
albeit with a decently sharp drill) but the edge of the holes had then been e
nthusiastically deburred, thereby removing locally a significant amount of t
ube wall thickness where the pins bear.
> I replaced 400 hours ago with oversize pins driven in with a hammer. There
has been no subsequent degradation of fit.
>
> So, the design was OK, but not the execution of the parts; be that at the
Factory or maybe in some cases compounded by the builder.
>
> Duncan McF.
> -----Or
>
Message 4
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No, they would distort the torque tube which must be perfectly circular=0AG
raham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Pete <peterz@zutras
oft.com>=0ATo: "europa-list@matronics.com" <europa-list@matronics.com> =0AS
ent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 14:04=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
=0A =0A=0AI fully understand the requirement for an interference pin fit to
avoid the hammering out of the holes over time.-=0AThat said, could "tap
er pins" be used?=0A=0Acheers,=0APete
Message 5
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| Subject: | Questions from Rough River |
Hello to those who were at RR this year. Some of you asked me to send you information
on door seals and other things maybe. Can't remember if it was Dave or
Michael or someone else that is waiting on me to send you some information. If
it was you send me your email address please and what it was you asked. I am
sorry I didn't write it down at the time, too much to keep up with sometimes for
this brain that's out of RAM. LOL
Troy Maynor
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385313#385313
Message 6
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You could drill and thread the heads of the parallel pins and use a bolt to
Jack the out if needed.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: 14 October 2012 18:14
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
No, they would distort the torque tube which must be perfectly circular
Graham
_____
From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 14:04
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
I fully understand the requirement for an interference pin fit to avoid the
hammering out of the holes over time.
That said, could "taper pins" be used?
cheers,
Pete
Message 7
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Thinking out loud here, what about very accurately machining substantive in
ternal bolt bushings (made of a material to not cause galvanic corrosion), t
ap them all the way down the tube to their proper location, then bolt tight t
he two tubes without fear of distortion?
Just throwing it out there,
Cheers,
Pete
On Oct 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> You could drill and thread the heads of the parallel pins and use a bolt t
o Jack the out if needed.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser
ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
> Sent: 14 October 2012 18:14
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
>
> No, they would distort the torque tube which must be perfectly circular
> Graham
>
> From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
> To: "europa-list@matronics.com" <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 14:04
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
>
> I fully understand the requirement for an interference pin fit to avoid th
e hammering out of the holes over time.
> That said, could "taper pins" be used?
>
> cheers,
> Pete
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 8
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Alan,
I am just getting around to the europa list this week. Lots going on in
the Europa world and many folks are doing new and interesting stuff
keeping me busy.
Regarding your woes:
Our fix with the Loctite is quite strong. I use a firm grip on the
trailing edge and try to wiggle it up and down and it should not move.
To check on a 25 hour inspection or after other maintenance where the
stabs are removed, I apply a firm force (20 pounds) on the leading edge
to assure the Loctite is tight and the small amount of slop is removed.
I prefer the pins to be properly installed. Some new builders can't
drill a straight or round hole so even if it were bolted, their work is
loose.
Your lack of building review or knowledge is really not a problem.
Review the manual on line and note that for the stab to be placed where
it is, it must be removable and installable, and it is.
As for checking the stab on routine flights. It is just like a Cherokee
or similar all moving stab. Check for excessive play, such that you can
hear some movement but the control is solidly attached and it does not
move un-commanded by the stick. For an example, if the front door
rattles when it is closed on your house, you adjust the stop and latch
to fix it. It is just proper maintenance and security. Others put a
thicker door gasket on to fit it. I prefer to fix it right, but the the
gasket works also. So does the Loctite.
As for repairs: I am an advocate of finding a repairman that is
familiar with the type, or if no one is available to help, a good
builder who has gone through the trials is your best bet. I would
prefer in the UK you take it to Nev Eyre or the factory. If I find a
really poorly built tail plane torque tube, I go ahead and remove it
from the aircraft and put it together on the bench. I note the problems
and will normally build new pins or install the 3/8 inch pins if not
modified. I do not blindly follow the instructions and just hand drill
the pin holes. I go to a machine shop and have the holes precisely
bored to the pin size. If the holes aren't true I square them and have
a pin machined to zero tolerance. Then fit the torque tube in the
fuselage again and freeze the pins on dry ice to shrink them and then
rapidly install them. The pins warm up and get really tight. I then
finish off the task by adding the Loctite. It is done then and should
be good for many, many years. While they are making repairs, why not
make the inspection holes slightly larger so you can work and inspect
easily. I do, and it is easy to work on anything in my or my customers
tail area.
Those who have excessively sloppy tail planes should consider removal
and pin replacement. Also if there is excessive play, change out the
bushings in the stab as they do wear if the play is excessive.
A good machinest will know his tools, capability and be able to make
everything right. Someone like Nev, or the factory can fix you right
up. Many experienced folks on this site will be able to help also, but
it takes time and a proper shop as winter is approaching.
Remember, Stab control is not lost, we are preventing flutter potential
with the Loctite should the builder not quite get it right.
If you can move your stabs independently more than a fraction of an
inch, by grasping them with your hand and applying force, your pins are
a bit too loose. Time to fix it.
Once fixed properly so there is no play, enjoy the delight of the pitch
control system.
Keep a positive attitude and remember the above and enjoy your airplane.
And please don't blame the original builder, as we are all amateurs
with our first plane. I spent 450 man hours to bring my really great
deal flying used kit up to my standards (remember I am anal retentive
about airplanes and maintenance) and it flies great. That said, I was
finishing up my annual inspection and found my turbo bracket cracked,
and the Binx nut holding the bracket was gone also, most probably due to
turbo vibration. Oh well, it is just time and money. The turbo will go
to Garret, and Lockwood Aviation will get another chunk of my money for
parts. Ah aviation.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Carter<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 5:48 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
<alancarteresq@onetel.net<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>>
Hello Bud.
Just read your posting, and as a pilot and not a builder this part of
the aeroplane has given me concern since i purchased the aircraft.
I notice you have used Sloppy and Band Aid Fix and that,s just what it
looks like to me.
The problem in my case not being a builder, is lack of skills and
materials to fix the problem,and not knowing who to to take the aircraft
too, to have it repaired.
In my opinion, which seem,s to get me into trouble, I think the
manufacturer should assign designated repair centres with the skills to
carry out a major modification as this.
I can manage without a prop, i can manage without an engine, but i can
not manage without Stabalator control.
This part of the aircraft is vital for survival and as i see it the
most vital part of the aircraft, more chance here than the spare.
Why was,nt this complete component made welded and machine finished
unit,
with the pins that drive the stabalator mirrored into a pre
manufactured plate that's moulded into each stabalator, Which would give
no play.
Before i fly again i will do all you external checks.
But im not sure how much pressure to apply, it is difficult to know as
people have different ideas of force, but say the amount the same as to
lift 1/2 a bucket of water.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384956#384956<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384956#384956>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 9
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Nev,
Thanks for that,
We're peas in a pod I guess.
I would have a shop full of customer built items that were thrown away
due to build errors. You could build all the controls from just my
scraps.
I too believe that if it didn't come out right, (and it usually doesn't
the first time) redo it or replace it, but learn from your mistakes.
I do prefer not to force the pins in, I freeze them and then it is only
a tap through the nylon spacer. When they expand, they are super tight.
Regards and thanks,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Neville Eyre<mailto:neveyre@aol.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
Hi Alan,
It's a pity you were not available when we were working on the design
and manufacturing process all those years ago, we could have done with
an expert to help. Sorting out all of the thousands of items with your
help would have been welcome.
Everything could have been made bullet proof, trouble is the Europa
would have weighed perhaps 1200 + pounds, with little payload ?
A number of options are available to you.
1]. Submit your new [improved] design to L.A.A. you might get it
through in a year or two ?
2]. Call Karen at Europa, have your Credit Card ready, and order one
of the new [ improved] torque tube assemblies. With hindsight, and less
pressure 18 years on, Europa have done a re design on this. Back then,
we didn't take into account that builders would take it apart /
reasemble / take apart / reasemble it the wrong way round / take apart /
reassemble and wear the holes .......... or they would smack the mass
balance weights onto the stop..... If you take this option, you might
have to ream out the bores of the TP5 /TP6 sleeves in your tailplanes
to allow the torque tube to slide on easily, as they were matched to
each individual torque tube. Easy but time consuming, with a broom
handle and emery cloth.
Almost certainly you will need to sweat out the TP13 bushes [ the four
1/4'' bore drive bushes in the inboard rib] and re pot them to match the
drive pins, simple job with a heat gun and 1/4'' bolt, and some epoxy.
This heavy duty item is, funnily enough, heavier.
3]. Remove the entire torque tube assembly, mark everything as to
their orientation [ horn , drive plates and nylon spacers relative to
the torque tube] and establish the scale of the wear [in the holes, not
the pins]. If the pins are the original 1/4'', and the holes are not too
worn [ they might be now if you have been swinging on the tail to check
wear] the next size up was 5/16''. Not sure if these are available from
Europa, as they go directly to 10mm now, bigger is better, but doesn't
give you another shot at it if you mess up on reassembly. The new holes
in the tube / fiting need to be an interference fit, as in if you can
push the pin in by hand, the jobs buggered before you fit them. I have
just done this job last week to a monowheel with 800+ hours on it. very
slight play but as it was in my workshop it made sense to sort it for
another 800 hours life.
Get a machine shop to ream the holes out to 0.007'' smaller than the
pins ACTUALLY MEASURE, and make sure you don't lose the relative
positions of the fittings when this is being done. If there is
significant play between the drive plates, ensure they are clocked to be
in allignment with each other during the drilling process. DON'T trial
fit the pins ! It is a once ony job ! On reinstallation, to drive the
pins in you will need a 4lb copper hammer.With the nip of the tube on
the pin, it will need a firm wallop to drive the pins in, should be a ''
doink, doink, doink, donk '' Mark with a felt pen on the head of the
pins the axis of the split pin hole so you can have them vertical when
you insert them, it helps to taper the lead end of the pin back to the
split pin hole to assist insertion, and lube the pin with thin oil.
Depending on whether the original builder put the inspection / view
panels in the place described in the Build Manual, or chose to delete /
move them, this is either a 3 hour each way job + the machining work, or
a couple of days marathon swearing session.
This work will need inspecting, and entering in the aircrafts Log
Book.
Regards,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
To: europa-list <europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 23:54
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
<alancarteresq@onetel.net<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>>
Hi Brian.
To me it feels like play, i will check again, and slide the Stablators
off and
check inserts making sure they are bonded.
I am just a pilot but i could have done a better job in designing this
linkage.
As this has the possibility of grounding the aircraft for some
considerable
time, due to the fact that clamps are individually made to size, Why
has,t
something not been done about it.??
Why can,t you get a complete unit with clamps already made, so the job
could be
done in one go, say a day, not grounded for 2 months.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385078#385078<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385078#385078>
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
p://forums.matronics.com
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Message 10
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Pete and Bob
Had the same kind of idea. Putting a slotted tube bored for the pins
and use flush riveted nutplates in the tube with bolts to clamp the
tubes together. Install by sliding in the nutplated tube and aligning
the holes. However, that still will distort the tubes when the bolts
are turned down making removal almost impossible as in tapered pins. My
other idea was an expanding bolt. A 1/4 inch bolt with a steel insert
in the center and two bronze bushings at the ends so that as the bolt is
tightened, the bronze expands like a rivet and fills the small gap,
making it tight. My A&P said, why not just rivet it in place. Just
change the stab to allow it to rotate a full 90 degrees to allow
riveting.
However, what we have works, is maintainable and can be assembled by
amateurs using drift pins and bolts (which allow a loose fit) during
assembly and allows for a solid install provided the holes and pins are
correctly sized for zero clearance.
Good ideas though,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete<mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
Thinking out loud here, what about very accurately machining
substantive internal bolt bushings (made of a material to not cause
galvanic corrosion), tap them all the way down the tube to their proper
location, then bolt tight the two tubes without fear of distortion?
Just throwing it out there,
Cheers,
Pete
On Oct 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, "Bob Harrison"
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>> wrote:
You could drill and thread the heads of the parallel pins and use a
bolt to Jack the out if needed.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From:
owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 14 October 2012 18:14
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
No, they would distort the torque tube which must be perfectly
circular
Graham
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com<mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>>
To: "europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>"
<europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>>
Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 14:04
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
I fully understand the requirement for an interference pin fit to
avoid the hammering out of the holes over time.
That said, could "taper pins" be used?
cheers,
Pete
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Message 11
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Hi Bud,
Glad to see you back on the forum.
Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed.
Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines.
So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ??
this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.??
I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips the joint.
They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all play.
But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has to be removed
the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero tolerance. All this will
cost quite a bit of money,
I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the airframe,
One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming the builder he made
a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s are or will be having to do
this.
Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as the norm.
Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so when i have
it inspected i get a
:D Inspector
Alan
PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins increased to 3/8"
pins locating into the Stabs.
No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here,
Is 1/4" OK , it does not appear to be Mandatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330
Message 12
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Hi! Alan .......you up size as each size gets to the limit. But to be sure
get my clamps and only one upsize will ever be needed.
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter
Sent: 15 October 2012 01:19
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
--> <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
Hi Bud,
Glad to see you back on the forum.
Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed.
Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines.
So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ??
this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.??
I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips the
joint.
They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all play.
But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has to be
removed the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero tolerance. All
this will cost quite a bit of money,
I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the
airframe, One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming the
builder he made a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s are or
will be having to do this.
Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as the
norm.
Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so when i
have it inspected i get a
:D Inspector
Alan
PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins increased to
3/8" pins locating into the Stabs.
No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here, Is 1/4" OK , it
does not appear to be Mandatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Questions from Rough River |
Troy,
Didn't make it to RR but there may be many people on the Forum that would b
e interested in the information you would share with others. If you could m
ake a general information posting for the Forum, I'm sure many would be gre
atly appreciative.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Troy Maynor <wingnut54@charter.net>
Sent: Sun, Oct 14, 2012 12:51 pm
Subject: Europa-List: Questions from Rough River
Hello to those who were at RR this year. Some of you asked me to send you
information on door seals and other things maybe. Can't remember if it was
Dave
or Michael or someone else that is waiting on me to send you some informati
on.
If it was you send me your email address please and what it was you asked.
I am
sorry I didn't write it down at the time, too much to keep up with sometime
s for
this brain that's out of RAM. LOL
Troy Maynor
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385313#385313
Message 14
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Hi Bob,
I take it your clamps are available and fit all Europa Aircraft or do they have
to be individually measured and made to size?
Cheers,
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand.
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
Ph 64 3 3515166
Mob 0210640221
On 15/10/2012, at 8:38 AM, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi! Alan .......you up size as each size gets to the limit. But to be sure
> get my clamps and only one upsize will ever be needed.
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter
> Sent: 15 October 2012 01:19
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
>
> --> <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi Bud,
> Glad to see you back on the forum.
>
> Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed.
> Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines.
>
> So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ??
> this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.??
>
> I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips the
> joint.
> They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all play.
> But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has to be
> removed the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero tolerance. All
> this will cost quite a bit of money,
>
> I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the
> airframe, One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming the
> builder he made a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s are or
> will be having to do this.
> Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as the
> norm.
>
> Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so when i
> have it inspected i get a
>
> :D Inspector
>
> Alan
>
> PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins increased to
> 3/8" pins locating into the Stabs.
> No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here, Is 1/4" OK , it
> does not appear to be Mandatory
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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Hello Pete,
In principle I understand what you are suggesting.
A few years ago, an engineer chap named John Baker here in Oz modified his E
uropa along those lines. On his system, each pin is replaced by two studs. T
here are two separate half round pieces placed within the tube and saddles a
re placed on the outside. The studs then clamp the inner and outer pieces to
gether between which are the inner and outer torque tubes which get very tig
htly clamped.
The only downside I can see is the cost of machining but if done in a produc
tion run I'm sure it could be done quite reasonably.
Regards
Kingsley
On 15/10/2012, at 7:51 AM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
> Thinking out loud here, what about very accurately machining substantive i
nternal bolt bushings (made of a material to not cause galvanic corrosion), t
ap them all the way down the tube to their proper location, then bolt tight t
he two tubes without fear of distortion?
>
> Just throwing it out there,
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
> On Oct 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote
:
>
>> You could drill and thread the heads of the parallel pins and use a bolt t
o Jack the out if needed.
>> Regards
>> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>>
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-se
rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
>> Sent: 14 October 2012 18:14
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
>>
>> No, they would distort the torque tube which must be perfectly circular
>> Graham
>>
>> From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
>> To: "europa-list@matronics.com" <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 14:04
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
>>
>> I fully understand the requirement for an interference pin fit to avoid t
he hammering out of the holes over time.
>> That said, could "taper pins" be used?
>>
>> cheers,
>> Pete
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
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>> =========================
=========
>> cs.com
>> =========================
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Message 16
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Alan,
I have done the Loctite over Loctite.
Just get the cleaning agent sold and recommended by Loctite and it will
work if properly cleaned and prepped. It is necessary to allow the
Loctite to wick in. Use the activator to speed setup if the weather is
cool. I once tried to blow the Loctite into the gap with compressed
air. However that air pushed the Loctite into the stab bearing. The
next day I can say the stabs were very rigid. I glued the whole thing
solid. Other tricks are after a very good cleaning, tape off the stab
and use a vacuum cleaner to suck air and Loctite from the tube junction
into the pin holes and help the wicking process... I also put the
Loctite into the outside of the tube slip joint (outside of the TP12 to
TP4 tube) as well as the inside. Be sure to clean up any leftover
Loctite. It will stay wet for a while in free air, and you will glue
your stabs on if you don't use Loctite activator. Even if the tube is
lubed with oil/grease.
The thing is to do the SB first and see if that works. If you decide to
do your own fix, heat the tube (See the Loctite Product sheets )to just
too hot to touch (about 100C) and the Loctite will release and allow
disassembly if you want to do that...
You must do what makes you feel the best about the fix.
I prefer to take out the whole assembly and fix it mechanically and use
the Loctite on top of that. As far as clamping, I am aware of a person
in Australia who machined a piece of steel to the inner contour and
reamed the existing hole to the bolt diameter and clamped the assembly
that way. Bob and others have machined clamps as well that work also.
But don't go into those without knowing your dimensions of your tube.
There are to my knowledge minor variations in the older Classic tube,
the early XS and now our latest XS stab parts and each vary by a small
amount. Should you decide to make a clamping fixture, measure first
please so they are sized properly and don't crush the tube.
I have worked on many aircraft and made, and corrected, many mistakes
(including my own). Many of the jobs are just nasty time consuming
tasks. It takes 3-5 times longer to do the job over, rather than doing
it right the first time... The Loctite will work unless your pins spin
like tops in the hole. How do I know, I removed a set of 1/4 inch pins
and replaced them with 5/16 pins. In my haste I tried to do the job
with the mechanism in the tail through a 4 inch access hole. I really
plumbered the job bad as the pins were under 5/16 inch. Then I had the
opportunity to remove the whole stab mechanism and decided to remake not
only the holes in the stab tube to a P size (0.323 inches) and machined
pins to match, I also made the access holes larger and added another to
the bottom on the opposite side. Total time to pull the stab and remake
the access holes was three days. The machine shop took a week to make
new holes and pins to spec. Install was another day. Now it's perfect.
Like I said, I am anal at times.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Carter<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:19 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
<alancarteresq@onetel.net<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>>
Hi Bud,
Glad to see you back on the forum.
Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed.
Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines.
So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ??
this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.??
I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips
the joint.
They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all
play.
But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has
to be removed the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero
tolerance. All this will cost quite a bit of money,
I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the
airframe, One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming the
builder he made a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s are
or will be having to do this.
Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as
the norm.
Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so
when i have it inspected i get a
:D Inspector
Alan
PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins
increased to 3/8" pins locating into the Stabs.
No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here,
Is 1/4" OK , it does not appear to be Mandatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330<http://forums
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