Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:54 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bob Harrison)
2. 12:59 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bob Harrison)
3. 01:08 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Guerner Remi)
4. 02:16 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (craig)
5. 12:11 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
6. 01:22 PM - Stabalator Flutter (Alan Carter)
7. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
8. 01:54 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
9. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
10. 03:51 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
11. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
12. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
13. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
14. 06:07 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
15. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
Message 1
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Hi! Alan,
Lots of advice from all quarters. However if you use loctite on an assembly
with existing slop AND IF you re-reem the holes make sure that BOTH
stabilators are fixed completely NEUTRAL POSITION. Otherwise you will have
a hard to fly aircraft.
Regards
Bob Harrison
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: 15 October 2012 06:33
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
Alan,
I have done the Loctite over Loctite.
Just get the cleaning agent sold and recommended by Loctite and it will work
if properly cleaned and prepped. It is necessary to allow the Loctite to
wick in. Use the activator to speed setup if the weather is cool. I once
tried to blow the Loctite into the gap with compressed air. However that
air pushed the Loctite into the stab bearing. The next day I can say the
stabs were very rigid. I glued the whole thing solid. Other tricks are
after a very good cleaning, tape off the stab and use a vacuum cleaner to
suck air and Loctite from the tube junction into the pin holes and help the
wicking process... I also put the Loctite into the outside of the tube slip
joint (outside of the TP12 to TP4 tube) as well as the inside. Be sure to
clean up any leftover Loctite. It will stay wet for a while in free air,
and you will glue your stabs on if you don't use Loctite activator. Even if
the tube is lubed with oil/grease.
The thing is to do the SB first and see if that works. If you decide to do
your own fix, heat the tube (See the Loctite Product sheets )to just too hot
to touch (about 100C) and the Loctite will release and allow disassembly if
you want to do that...
You must do what makes you feel the best about the fix.
I prefer to take out the whole assembly and fix it mechanically and use the
Loctite on top of that. As far as clamping, I am aware of a person in
Australia who machined a piece of steel to the inner contour and reamed the
existing hole to the bolt diameter and clamped the assembly that way. Bob
and others have machined clamps as well that work also. But don't go into
those without knowing your dimensions of your tube. There are to my
knowledge minor variations in the older Classic tube, the early XS and now
our latest XS stab parts and each vary by a small amount. Should you decide
to make a clamping fixture, measure first please so they are sized properly
and don't crush the tube.
I have worked on many aircraft and made, and corrected, many mistakes
(including my own). Many of the jobs are just nasty time consuming tasks.
It takes 3-5 times longer to do the job over, rather than doing it right the
first time... The Loctite will work unless your pins spin like tops in the
hole. How do I know, I removed a set of 1/4 inch pins and replaced them
with 5/16 pins. In my haste I tried to do the job with the mechanism in the
tail through a 4 inch access hole. I really plumbered the job bad as the
pins were under 5/16 inch. Then I had the opportunity to remove the whole
stab mechanism and decided to remake not only the holes in the stab tube to
a P size (0.323 inches) and machined pins to match, I also made the access
holes larger and added another to the bottom on the opposite side. Total
time to pull the stab and remake the access holes was three days. The
machine shop took a week to make new holes and pins to spec. Install was
another day. Now it's perfect. Like I said, I am anal at times.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Carter <mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:19 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
Hi Bud,
Glad to see you back on the forum.
Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed.
Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines.
So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ??
this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.??
I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips the
joint.
They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all play.
But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has to be
removed the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero tolerance. All
this will cost quite a bit of money,
I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the
airframe, One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming the
builder he made a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s are or
will be having to do this.
Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as the
norm.
Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so when i
have it inspected i get a
:D Inspector
Alan
PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins increased to
3/8" pins locating into the Stabs.
No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here,
Is 1/4" OK , it does not appear to be Mandatory
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330
<Bnbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> via the Web
title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 2
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Hi! Tim ....I require a vernier measured outside diameter identified of each
drive bush, similarly the torque tube AND EACH side of the centre bush in
vertical and horizontal positions (some are out of round to the inside
diameter!)
So availability is 6 weeks from receipt of order, payment AND dimensions.
Regards
Bob Harrison.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward
Sent: 15 October 2012 03:10
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
Hi Bob,
I take it your clamps are available and fit all Europa Aircraft or do they
have to be individually measured and made to size?
Cheers,
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand.
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
Ph 64 3 3515166
Mob 0210640221
On 15/10/2012, at 8:38 AM, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> --> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Alan .......you up size as each size gets to the limit. But to be
> sure get my clamps and only one upsize will ever be needed.
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan
> Carter
> Sent: 15 October 2012 01:19
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
>
> --> <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi Bud,
> Glad to see you back on the forum.
>
> Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed.
> Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines.
>
> So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ??
> this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.??
>
> I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips
> the joint.
> They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all
play.
> But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has
> to be removed the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero
> tolerance. All this will cost quite a bit of money,
>
> I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the
> airframe, One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming
> the builder he made a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s
> are or will be having to do this.
> Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as
> the norm.
>
> Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so
> when i have it inspected i get a
>
> :D Inspector
>
> Alan
>
> PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins
> increased to 3/8" pins locating into the Stabs.
> No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here, Is 1/4"
> OK , it does not appear to be Mandatory
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Pete,
I fitted taper pins a few years ago. They worked great for about 100 hours, then
I got some play again. Obviously retightening them was only a temporary solution,
so I used Loctite as per the Europa service bulletin and have flown several
hundreds hours since, still with no play.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL XS Monowheel, approaching 1000 hours.
<<<< could "taper pins" be used?>>>>>>>>>>>
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I did mine in a similar manner, two alloy slugs machined to be and
interference fit inside the
Tube, then 10mm stainless bolt that goes right through the tube to clamp the
whole lot together
The problem with this approach is the slug needs to be carefully machined so
the tube doesn't distort
When the bolts are tightened.
Regards
craig
Hello Pete,
In principle I understand what you are suggesting.
A few years ago, an engineer chap named John Baker here in Oz modified his
Europa along those lines. On his system, each pin is replaced by two studs.
There are two separate half round pieces placed within the tube and saddles
are placed on the outside. The studs then clamp the inner and outer pieces
together between which are
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Hello Bud,Bob, and All.
Bud, Bob, you are real gentlemen, many thanks, I have enough information on this,
now i must decide which way to go.
Here in the UK i think the Mods have to be approved by the LAA, so even if you
wanted to do them you would have to get LAA approval.
New Pins, and or Clamps are approved.
My idea would be a solid insert with a hole for a bolt, 4 of these would be required,
this insert placed inside the tube with the holes aligned with the hole
in the tube, a bolt with radial washer plates on each side, the whole lot bolted
up, the inserts keeping the tube in shape and making a compression fit, very
simple , and no movement.
Even B and Q could do this.
I think someone has already put this idea forward, and the only problem suggested
was the tight fit,(which it good),but would be difficult to break if you wanted
to remove it.This would be a very rare event, and it may be a bit difficult,but
could be done, and i am sure some one would come up with a good way of
breaking the fit to removing it if needed.
However its also been suggested that this would take a couple of years to get LAA
approval.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385389#385389
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Subject: | Stabalator Flutter |
Hello ALL.
This question is nothing to do with how to fix the Toque Tube and stop flutter.
Ok i know stabalators are more efficient than the elevator, and they can,t Rime
ice up like an elevator and i have flow many aircraft with stabalators
and i don,t like them.
Question is what is Flutter only??
I keep hearing the word Stabalator Flutter, I have the obvious idea as to what
happens but would like to know more, maybe someone has experienced it.
Do the Stabalators flutter independently, or both up and down together,
How fast is this fluttering, How is the on-set noticed in the cockpit, Can you
feel it through the joy stick,( of course you can, but a tell tell indication
maybe in some flight attitude or configuration well before an event). Is it controllable,
What would be the position held by the stabalators if you had no control.
ete,ete,ete, agian not a test just something we can all chew over.
If anyone has experienced flutter please tell us,
Alan
[/u]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385392#385392
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I notice that I also have 1mm play on one side. All the recommended solutio
ns seem really complicated.And I believe that I have grease between the TP1
0 and the torque tube=2C so the Loctite would never last.
Why wouldn't this work ?: Insert another pin on the outside of the fuselag
e. There is a gap between the TP12 and the fuse skin. Remove some of the s
kin to gain access for the drill bit and the pin=2C the skin is easily repa
ired afterwards. Drill a hole through the top only. Then insert a close fit
ting machined piece of aluminum rod=2C pre-drilled . This piece would have
a removable handle screwed into it near the edge to facilitate insertion an
d positioning. While rotating the insert apply Redux. Line up the holes aga
in and now drill the bottom hole. Insert the pin or bolt with locknut and r
emove the temporary handle.
Karl
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
> From: alancarteresq@onetel.net
> Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 12:10:18 -0700
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
t>
>
> Hello Bud=2CBob=2C and All.
> Bud=2C Bob=2C you are real gentlemen=2C many thanks=2C I have enough info
rmation on this=2C now i must decide which way to go.
> Here in the UK i think the Mods have to be approved by the LAA=2C so even
if you wanted to do them you would have to get LAA approval.
> New Pins=2C and or Clamps are approved.
> My idea would be a solid insert with a hole for a bolt=2C 4 of these woul
d be required=2C this insert placed inside the tube with the holes aligned
with the hole in the tube=2C a bolt with radial washer plates on each side
=2C the whole lot bolted up=2C the inserts keeping the tube in shape and ma
king a compression fit=2C very simple =2C and no movement.
> Even B and Q could do this.
> I think someone has already put this idea forward=2C and the only problem
suggested was the tight fit=2C(which it good)=2Cbut would be difficult to
break if you wanted to remove it.This would be a very rare event=2C and it
may be a bit difficult=2Cbut could be done=2C and i am sure some one would
come up with a good way of breaking the fit to removing it if needed.
> However its also been suggested that this would take a couple of years to
get LAA approval.
> Regards
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385389#385389
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Hi Carl.
1 mm is OK ,is this 1 mm at the edge of the tail plane?
I think you have to get to the TP9 in the centre horn pins
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385394#385394
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No=2C this is the displacement on the tube.
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
> From: alancarteresq@onetel.net
> Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 13:53:45 -0700
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
t>
>
> Hi Carl.
> 1 mm is OK =2Cis this 1 mm at the edge of the tail plane?
> I think you have to get to the TP9 in the centre horn pins
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385394#385394
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Hi Carl.
I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE.
If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping the TB12
plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at the trailing edge
of the Stabilator if it was in-place.
There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make good the TB12
pins, and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centre of the fuselage.
I agree, Yes it is complicated,
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408
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Alan-
Your curiosity is a good thing, but do yourself a big favor and hire someone in
the UK that knows Europas well and have them fix it. This particular issue is
too important to take a chance on screwing it up. Even those of us who have done
the build from step one are not 100% comfortable with this mod. The result
of tailplane flutter can be catastrophic. It is very hard to find someone who
has experienced it to talk to without using a Psychic intermediary.
Unfortunately, these are the chances you take when you buy a used home built. The
airworthiness criteria are markedly different between certificated and non-certificated
airplanes. Then again, so are the costs.
Good luck! Take care of it; it is important!
Jim Puglise
N238JL
Punta Gorda, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:58 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
Hi Carl.
I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE.
If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping the TB12
plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at the trailing edge
of the Stabilator if it was in-place.
There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make good the TB12
pins, and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centre of the fuselage.
I agree, Yes it is complicated,
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408
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The play is in the TP12/TP14D pin=2C so my fix would be a darn sight bette
r than attempting to GLUE vital pitch control components together. If I get
someone else to make up the inserts=2C it would take me about an hour to i
mplement for one side.
Cheers=2C
Karl
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
> From: alancarteresq@onetel.net
> Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 15:49:58 -0700
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
t>
>
> Hi Carl.
> I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE.
> If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping th
e TB12 plate and it moves 1mm =2C this would scale up to about 1/2" at the
trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place.
>
> There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make good
the TB12 pins=2C and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centr
e of the fuselage.
>
> I agree=2C Yes it is complicated=2C
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Sage advice Jim.
If anyone has any doubts as to what tailplane flutter can do, take a
look at the NTSB report on the "Galloping Ghost" incident at Reno last year.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf
The high-res photos of the distortion to the rear fuselage give a clue
as to the forces involved.
I had the misfortune to witness a plane go down right in front of me at
Reno a few years ago as a result of an overstressed elevator trim tab
letting go. What is hard to appreciate is how quickly it happens - from
the onset of flutter to hitting the ground is just seconds. The sheer
violence of the destruction is sickening.
Nigel
On 16/10/2012 00:05, jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote:
> Alan-
>
> Your curiosity is a good thing, but do yourself a big favor and hire
> someone in the UK that knows Europas well and have them fix it. This
> particular issue is too important to take a chance on screwing it up.
> Even those of us who have done the build from step one are not 100%
> comfortable with this mod. The result of tailplane flutter can be
> catastrophic. It is very hard to find someone who has experienced it
> to talk to without using a Psychic intermediary.
>
> Unfortunately, these are the chances you take when you buy a used home
> built. The airworthiness criteria are markedly different between
> certificated and non-certificated airplanes. Then again, so are the
> costs.
>
> Good luck! Take care of it; it is important!
>
> Jim Puglise
> N238JL
> Punta Gorda, FL
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
> *To: *europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent: *Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:58 PM
> *Subject: *Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
>
> <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi Carl.
> I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE.
> If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping
> the TB12 plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at
> the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place.
>
> There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make
> good the TB12 pins, and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in
> the centre of the fuselage.
>
> I agree, Yes it is complicated,
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408
> _p; &n===================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
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Hi Karl.
I see its just in the outer pins you have play in,
How can i determine if i only have play in the outer pins on my aircraft,?
Hi Jim.
Many thanks for you concerns, I have many years experience, I am very careful,
and meticulous to detail, so will get it all fixed and signed up properly.
I ask many searching little question to build up the big picture, I hope to get
some feed back on Flutter so i can be prepared it talked about on the forum,
wobbling of the stabilators, lets have some detail as to what really happens,
always plan 6 miles ahead,
The Internet is a fountain of knowledge. What a great jump 128,000ft
nearly as high as my Europa goes.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385422#385422
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Hi Alan=2C
You are up late. I have only play in the hole for the TP14D. I grab the two
TP13 pins on the TP12 and then try to rotate the TP12=2C at the same time
watching the torque tube. If the tube remains stationary but the TP12 moves
=2C then the play is in between the two.
Karl
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73
> From: alancarteresq@onetel.net
> Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 18:07:43 -0700
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
t>
>
> Hi Karl.
> I see its just in the outer pins you have play in=2C
> How can i determine if i only have play in the outer pins on my aircraft
=2C?
>
> Hi Jim.
> Many thanks for you concerns=2C I have many years experience=2C I am very
careful=2C and meticulous to detail=2C so will get it all fixed and signe
d up properly.
> I ask many searching little question to build up the big picture=2C I hop
e to get some feed back on Flutter so i can be prepared it talked about on
the forum=2C wobbling of the stabilators=2C lets have some detail as to wha
t really happens=2C always plan 6 miles ahead=2C
> The Internet is a fountain of knowledge. What a great jump 128=2C000ft
> nearly as high as my Europa goes.
> Regards
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385422#385422
>
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