Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 10/15/12


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:54 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bob Harrison)
     2. 12:59 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Bob Harrison)
     3. 01:08 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Guerner Remi)
     4. 02:16 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (craig)
     5. 12:11 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
     6. 01:22 PM - Stabalator Flutter (Alan Carter)
     7. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
     8. 01:54 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
     9. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
    10. 03:51 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
    11. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
    12. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
    13. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
    14. 06:07 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter)
    15. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:54:30 AM PST US
    From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    Hi! Alan, Lots of advice from all quarters. However if you use loctite on an assembly with existing slop AND IF you re-reem the holes make sure that BOTH stabilators are fixed completely NEUTRAL POSITION. Otherwise you will have a hard to fly aircraft. Regards Bob Harrison From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly Sent: 15 October 2012 06:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 Alan, I have done the Loctite over Loctite. Just get the cleaning agent sold and recommended by Loctite and it will work if properly cleaned and prepped. It is necessary to allow the Loctite to wick in. Use the activator to speed setup if the weather is cool. I once tried to blow the Loctite into the gap with compressed air. However that air pushed the Loctite into the stab bearing. The next day I can say the stabs were very rigid. I glued the whole thing solid. Other tricks are after a very good cleaning, tape off the stab and use a vacuum cleaner to suck air and Loctite from the tube junction into the pin holes and help the wicking process... I also put the Loctite into the outside of the tube slip joint (outside of the TP12 to TP4 tube) as well as the inside. Be sure to clean up any leftover Loctite. It will stay wet for a while in free air, and you will glue your stabs on if you don't use Loctite activator. Even if the tube is lubed with oil/grease. The thing is to do the SB first and see if that works. If you decide to do your own fix, heat the tube (See the Loctite Product sheets )to just too hot to touch (about 100C) and the Loctite will release and allow disassembly if you want to do that... You must do what makes you feel the best about the fix. I prefer to take out the whole assembly and fix it mechanically and use the Loctite on top of that. As far as clamping, I am aware of a person in Australia who machined a piece of steel to the inner contour and reamed the existing hole to the bolt diameter and clamped the assembly that way. Bob and others have machined clamps as well that work also. But don't go into those without knowing your dimensions of your tube. There are to my knowledge minor variations in the older Classic tube, the early XS and now our latest XS stab parts and each vary by a small amount. Should you decide to make a clamping fixture, measure first please so they are sized properly and don't crush the tube. I have worked on many aircraft and made, and corrected, many mistakes (including my own). Many of the jobs are just nasty time consuming tasks. It takes 3-5 times longer to do the job over, rather than doing it right the first time... The Loctite will work unless your pins spin like tops in the hole. How do I know, I removed a set of 1/4 inch pins and replaced them with 5/16 pins. In my haste I tried to do the job with the mechanism in the tail through a 4 inch access hole. I really plumbered the job bad as the pins were under 5/16 inch. Then I had the opportunity to remove the whole stab mechanism and decided to remake not only the holes in the stab tube to a P size (0.323 inches) and machined pins to match, I also made the access holes larger and added another to the bottom on the opposite side. Total time to pull the stab and remake the access holes was three days. The machine shop took a week to make new holes and pins to spec. Install was another day. Now it's perfect. Like I said, I am anal at times. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Carter <mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:19 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 Hi Bud, Glad to see you back on the forum. Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed. Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines. So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ?? this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.?? I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips the joint. They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all play. But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has to be removed the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero tolerance. All this will cost quite a bit of money, I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the airframe, One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming the builder he made a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s are or will be having to do this. Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as the norm. Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so when i have it inspected i get a :D Inspector Alan PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins increased to 3/8" pins locating into the Stabs. No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here, Is 1/4" OK , it does not appear to be Mandatory Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330 <Bnbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== ===========


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:59:53 AM PST US
    From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    Hi! Tim ....I require a vernier measured outside diameter identified of each drive bush, similarly the torque tube AND EACH side of the centre bush in vertical and horizontal positions (some are out of round to the inside diameter!) So availability is 6 weeks from receipt of order, payment AND dimensions. Regards Bob Harrison. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 15 October 2012 03:10 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 Hi Bob, I take it your clamps are available and fit all Europa Aircraft or do they have to be individually measured and made to size? Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t@xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 On 15/10/2012, at 8:38 AM, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > --> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Alan .......you up size as each size gets to the limit. But to be > sure get my clamps and only one upsize will ever be needed. > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan > Carter > Sent: 15 October 2012 01:19 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > > --> <alancarteresq@onetel.net> > > Hi Bud, > Glad to see you back on the forum. > > Mod 73 has been done on my Europa, but the Loctite repair has failed. > Movement is at the moment within Europa guide lines. > > So what happens when Loctite is applied over Loctite ?? > this would be a very quick and very easy fix, would it work.?? > > I have seen clamps with 3/8" pins going through the tube also grips > the joint. > They look well made and will hold all firmly together so removing all play. > But will obviously be a pig of a job to do properly, as the tube has > to be removed the the hole re drilled ( Reamed) by machine to zero > tolerance. All this will cost quite a bit of money, > > I purchased the aircraft about 3 months age, it has 350 hours on the > airframe, One should not be having to do this, and i am not blaming > the builder he made a good job of the aircraft, but many many Europa,s > are or will be having to do this. > Its just not good enough, that we should be expected to accept this as > the norm. > > Its got to be repaired, i will feel a lot happier with zero play, so > when i have it inspected i get a > > :D Inspector > > Alan > > PS i also note that there is a Mod on the Drive Pins, 1/4"pins > increased to 3/8" pins locating into the Stabs. > No good having re enforced one bit , and get a failure here, Is 1/4" > OK , it does not appear to be Mandatory > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385330#385330 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 01:08:37 AM PST US
    From: Guerner Remi <air.guerner@orange.fr>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    Pete, I fitted taper pins a few years ago. They worked great for about 100 hours, then I got some play again. Obviously retightening them was only a temporary solution, so I used Loctite as per the Europa service bulletin and have flown several hundreds hours since, still with no play. Remi Guerner F-PGKL XS Monowheel, approaching 1000 hours. <<<< could "taper pins" be used?>>>>>>>>>>>


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:16:06 AM PST US
    From: "craig" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    I did mine in a similar manner, two alloy slugs machined to be and interference fit inside the Tube, then 10mm stainless bolt that goes right through the tube to clamp the whole lot together The problem with this approach is the slug needs to be carefully machined so the tube doesn't distort When the bolts are tightened. Regards craig Hello Pete, In principle I understand what you are suggesting. A few years ago, an engineer chap named John Baker here in Oz modified his Europa along those lines. On his system, each pin is replaced by two studs. There are two separate half round pieces placed within the tube and saddles are placed on the outside. The studs then clamp the inner and outer pieces together between which are


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:11:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hello Bud,Bob, and All. Bud, Bob, you are real gentlemen, many thanks, I have enough information on this, now i must decide which way to go. Here in the UK i think the Mods have to be approved by the LAA, so even if you wanted to do them you would have to get LAA approval. New Pins, and or Clamps are approved. My idea would be a solid insert with a hole for a bolt, 4 of these would be required, this insert placed inside the tube with the holes aligned with the hole in the tube, a bolt with radial washer plates on each side, the whole lot bolted up, the inserts keeping the tube in shape and making a compression fit, very simple , and no movement. Even B and Q could do this. I think someone has already put this idea forward, and the only problem suggested was the tight fit,(which it good),but would be difficult to break if you wanted to remove it.This would be a very rare event, and it may be a bit difficult,but could be done, and i am sure some one would come up with a good way of breaking the fit to removing it if needed. However its also been suggested that this would take a couple of years to get LAA approval. Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385389#385389


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:22:00 PM PST US
    Subject: Stabalator Flutter
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hello ALL. This question is nothing to do with how to fix the Toque Tube and stop flutter. Ok i know stabalators are more efficient than the elevator, and they can,t Rime ice up like an elevator and i have flow many aircraft with stabalators and i don,t like them. Question is what is Flutter only?? I keep hearing the word Stabalator Flutter, I have the obvious idea as to what happens but would like to know more, maybe someone has experienced it. Do the Stabalators flutter independently, or both up and down together, How fast is this fluttering, How is the on-set noticed in the cockpit, Can you feel it through the joy stick,( of course you can, but a tell tell indication maybe in some flight attitude or configuration well before an event). Is it controllable, What would be the position held by the stabalators if you had no control. ete,ete,ete, agian not a test just something we can all chew over. If anyone has experienced flutter please tell us, Alan [/u] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385392#385392


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:37:09 PM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    I notice that I also have 1mm play on one side. All the recommended solutio ns seem really complicated.And I believe that I have grease between the TP1 0 and the torque tube=2C so the Loctite would never last. Why wouldn't this work ?: Insert another pin on the outside of the fuselag e. There is a gap between the TP12 and the fuse skin. Remove some of the s kin to gain access for the drill bit and the pin=2C the skin is easily repa ired afterwards. Drill a hole through the top only. Then insert a close fit ting machined piece of aluminum rod=2C pre-drilled . This piece would have a removable handle screwed into it near the edge to facilitate insertion an d positioning. While rotating the insert apply Redux. Line up the holes aga in and now drill the bottom hole. Insert the pin or bolt with locknut and r emove the temporary handle. Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > From: alancarteresq@onetel.net > Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 12:10:18 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > t> > > Hello Bud=2CBob=2C and All. > Bud=2C Bob=2C you are real gentlemen=2C many thanks=2C I have enough info rmation on this=2C now i must decide which way to go. > Here in the UK i think the Mods have to be approved by the LAA=2C so even if you wanted to do them you would have to get LAA approval. > New Pins=2C and or Clamps are approved. > My idea would be a solid insert with a hole for a bolt=2C 4 of these woul d be required=2C this insert placed inside the tube with the holes aligned with the hole in the tube=2C a bolt with radial washer plates on each side =2C the whole lot bolted up=2C the inserts keeping the tube in shape and ma king a compression fit=2C very simple =2C and no movement. > Even B and Q could do this. > I think someone has already put this idea forward=2C and the only problem suggested was the tight fit=2C(which it good)=2Cbut would be difficult to break if you wanted to remove it.This would be a very rare event=2C and it may be a bit difficult=2Cbut could be done=2C and i am sure some one would come up with a good way of breaking the fit to removing it if needed. > However its also been suggested that this would take a couple of years to get LAA approval. > Regards > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385389#385389 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:54:15 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi Carl. 1 mm is OK ,is this 1 mm at the edge of the tail plane? I think you have to get to the TP9 in the centre horn pins Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385394#385394


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:09:15 PM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    No=2C this is the displacement on the tube. > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > From: alancarteresq@onetel.net > Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 13:53:45 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > t> > > Hi Carl. > 1 mm is OK =2Cis this 1 mm at the edge of the tail plane? > I think you have to get to the TP9 in the centre horn pins > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385394#385394 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:51:04 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi Carl. I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE. If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping the TB12 plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place. There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make good the TB12 pins, and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centre of the fuselage. I agree, Yes it is complicated, Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:05:56 PM PST US
    From: jimpuglise@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    Alan- Your curiosity is a good thing, but do yourself a big favor and hire someone in the UK that knows Europas well and have them fix it. This particular issue is too important to take a chance on screwing it up. Even those of us who have done the build from step one are not 100% comfortable with this mod. The result of tailplane flutter can be catastrophic. It is very hard to find someone who has experienced it to talk to without using a Psychic intermediary. Unfortunately, these are the chances you take when you buy a used home built. The airworthiness criteria are markedly different between certificated and non-certificated airplanes. Then again, so are the costs. Good luck! Take care of it; it is important! Jim Puglise N238JL Punta Gorda, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:58 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 Hi Carl. I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE. If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping the TB12 plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place. There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make good the TB12 pins, and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centre of the fuselage. I agree, Yes it is complicated, Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408


    Message 12


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    Time: 04:25:52 PM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    The play is in the TP12/TP14D pin=2C so my fix would be a darn sight bette r than attempting to GLUE vital pitch control components together. If I get someone else to make up the inserts=2C it would take me about an hour to i mplement for one side. Cheers=2C Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > From: alancarteresq@onetel.net > Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 15:49:58 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > t> > > Hi Carl. > I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE. > If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping th e TB12 plate and it moves 1mm =2C this would scale up to about 1/2" at the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place. > > There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make good the TB12 pins=2C and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centr e of the fuselage. > > I agree=2C Yes it is complicated=2C > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 06:03:51 PM PST US
    From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    Sage advice Jim. If anyone has any doubts as to what tailplane flutter can do, take a look at the NTSB report on the "Galloping Ghost" incident at Reno last year. http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf The high-res photos of the distortion to the rear fuselage give a clue as to the forces involved. I had the misfortune to witness a plane go down right in front of me at Reno a few years ago as a result of an overstressed elevator trim tab letting go. What is hard to appreciate is how quickly it happens - from the onset of flutter to hitting the ground is just seconds. The sheer violence of the destruction is sickening. Nigel On 16/10/2012 00:05, jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: > Alan- > > Your curiosity is a good thing, but do yourself a big favor and hire > someone in the UK that knows Europas well and have them fix it. This > particular issue is too important to take a chance on screwing it up. > Even those of us who have done the build from step one are not 100% > comfortable with this mod. The result of tailplane flutter can be > catastrophic. It is very hard to find someone who has experienced it > to talk to without using a Psychic intermediary. > > Unfortunately, these are the chances you take when you buy a used home > built. The airworthiness criteria are markedly different between > certificated and non-certificated airplanes. Then again, so are the > costs. > > Good luck! Take care of it; it is important! > > Jim Puglise > N238JL > Punta Gorda, FL > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net> > *To: *europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent: *Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:58 PM > *Subject: *Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > > <alancarteresq@onetel.net> > > Hi Carl. > I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE. > If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping > the TB12 plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at > the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place. > > There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9 your idea would only make > good the TB12 pins, and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in > the centre of the fuselage. > > I agree, Yes it is complicated, > Alan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408 > _p; &n=================== > > > * > > > *


    Message 14


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    Time: 06:07:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi Karl. I see its just in the outer pins you have play in, How can i determine if i only have play in the outer pins on my aircraft,? Hi Jim. Many thanks for you concerns, I have many years experience, I am very careful, and meticulous to detail, so will get it all fixed and signed up properly. I ask many searching little question to build up the big picture, I hope to get some feed back on Flutter so i can be prepared it talked about on the forum, wobbling of the stabilators, lets have some detail as to what really happens, always plan 6 miles ahead, The Internet is a fountain of knowledge. What a great jump 128,000ft nearly as high as my Europa goes. Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385422#385422


    Message 15


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    Time: 06:21:55 PM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Mod 73
    Hi Alan=2C You are up late. I have only play in the hole for the TP14D. I grab the two TP13 pins on the TP12 and then try to rotate the TP12=2C at the same time watching the torque tube. If the tube remains stationary but the TP12 moves =2C then the play is in between the two. Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > From: alancarteresq@onetel.net > Date: Mon=2C 15 Oct 2012 18:07:43 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > t> > > Hi Karl. > I see its just in the outer pins you have play in=2C > How can i determine if i only have play in the outer pins on my aircraft =2C? > > Hi Jim. > Many thanks for you concerns=2C I have many years experience=2C I am very careful=2C and meticulous to detail=2C so will get it all fixed and signe d up properly. > I ask many searching little question to build up the big picture=2C I hop e to get some feed back on Flutter so i can be prepared it talked about on the forum=2C wobbling of the stabilators=2C lets have some detail as to wha t really happens=2C always plan 6 miles ahead=2C > The Internet is a fountain of knowledge. What a great jump 128=2C000ft > nearly as high as my Europa goes. > Regards > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385422#385422 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >




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