---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/16/12: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:57 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter) 2. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Neville Eyre) 3. 10:16 AM - Re: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different (Stephan Cassel) 4. 11:27 AM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter) 5. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different (William Daniell) 6. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 7. 01:51 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter) 8. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (craig) 9. 02:49 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter) 10. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different (Kevin Kedward) 11. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 12. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Mod 73 (Karl Heindl) 13. 03:25 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Alan Carter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:24 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 From: "Alan Carter" Hi Karl. Yes i should really try to get to bed earlier, but having flow day and night all my life, i am use to it, but it shortens your life i am told. Thanks for your answer, It sound good to me, Hope you fix it Ok let me know how it goes. All the best Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385435#385435 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 From: Neville Eyre Hi Karl, Why wouldn't it work ? It would pin the TP12 to the torque tube... but, think where the load from the tailplane is at it's highest, yes, just before it goes into the brass b earing bonded to the fuselage.............. and picture the torque tube as a spar, you have just drilled holes through the spar caps.................. ...................... The removal of the assembly, and reaming and fitting oversize pins is the only way to go, quite easy as I have described, as long as you have access to a good machine shop with guys there who know what they are doing, then i t is almost guaranteed to be a success. WITH AN 0.007'' INTERFERENCE FIT T HEY ARE NOT GOING TO MOVE. Use Loctite or Bob's clamps after this fix as a belt and braces if you want peace of mind, either of these without doing the pins first is not good en ough. Cheers, Nev. -----Original Message----- From: Karl Heindl Sent: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:54 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 I notice that I also have 1mm play on one side. All the recommended solutio ns seem really complicated. And I believe that I have grease between the TP10 and the torque tube, so t he Loctite would never last. Why wouldn't this work ?: Insert another pin on the outside of the fuselag e. There is a gap between the TP12 and the fuse skin. Remove some of the s kin to gain access for the drill bit and the pin, the skin is easily repair ed afterwards. Drill a hole through the top only. Then insert a close fitti ng machined piece of aluminum rod, pre-drilled . This piece would have a re movable handle screwed into it near the edge to facilitate insertion and po sitioning. While rotating the insert apply Redux. Line up the holes again a nd now drill the bottom hole. Insert the pin or bolt with locknut and remov e the temporary handle. Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > From: alancarteresq@onetel.net > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:10:18 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > t> > > Hello Bud,Bob, and All. > Bud, Bob, you are real gentlemen, many thanks, I have enough information on this, now i must decide which way to go. > Here in the UK i think the Mods have to be approved by the LAA, so even i f you wanted to do them you would have to get LAA approval. > New Pins, and or Clamps are approved. > My idea would be a solid insert with a hole for a bolt, 4 of these would be required, this insert placed inside the tube with the holes aligned with the hole in the tube, a bolt with radial washer plates on each side, the w hole lot bolted up, the inserts keeping the tube in shape and making a comp ression fit, very simple , and no movement. > Even B and Q could do this. > I think someone has already put this idea forward, and the only problem s uggested was the tight fit,(which it good),but would be difficult to break if you wanted to remove it.This would be a very rare event, and it may be a bit difficult,but could be done, and i am sure some one would come up with a good way of breaking the fit to removing it if needed. > However its also been suggested that this would take a couple of years to get LAA approval. > Regards > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385389#385389 > > > >===================== >==================== > > > -= - The Europa-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:06 AM PST US From: "Stephan Cassel" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different Hi Europa pilots/builders I did the mod 73 per instructions five years ago and at first it looked good. After a short while the play was back. My assembly was perhaps a bit tighter then normal so the Loctite did not penetrate enough. In order to get rid of the play I made =9Cspecial=9D washer, situated inside the torque tube. Now it was possible to tight the tubes hard together. The result was a zero play system. Complete solid for 5 year (340 hours) . I know another builder that has solved the play in the same fashion with complete success. Here is draft drawing that shows the parts involved. In my case it was only necessary to change the outer bolts: http://aero2012.scassel.se/Images/tailplanemod.PNG It is necessary to create a spanner with looong shank. I used a wooden stick and strapped the spanner to it. After 30-40 minutes and some swearing (not much) it was tight, very tight I may add. Additionally I made a thin black line, 4-5 cm long, on fuselage when TP trailing edge was fully down, parallel with TP skin. This reference line makes it very easy to catch very small play over time. So far the TP is still on the reference line. I check this on every pre flight. Best regards Stephan LN-STE Mono in Norway. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:38 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 From: "Alan Carter" Hi Karl That,s a good point Neville has mentioned ,the hole is on the outside of the bearing support, i can see what he means ie look at it as a spare, better re think on this one, As for hole,s, to get at these pins, from the outside of the aircraft. >From the inspection hole under on the side of the fuselage under the Stabilator can you get to the pins to remove them, If you placed an inspection hole in the fin above the tube this would seem the best point to do all work from, But we come to the question would this weaken the Fin.?? Bud mentioned a inspection hole ?? Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385480#385480 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:25 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different Stephan How on earth did you get the washers lined up? Or are they not two pieces but one =9Cmini sleeve=9D as it were? Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephan Cassel Sent: 16 October 2012 12:16 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different Hi Europa pilots/builders I did the mod 73 per instructions five years ago and at first it looked good. After a short while the play was back. My assembly was perhaps a bit tighter then normal so the Loctite did not penetrate enough. In order to get rid of the play I made =9Cspecial=9D washer, situated inside the torque tube. Now it was possible to tight the tubes hard together. The result was a zero play system. Complete solid for 5 year (340 hours) . I know another builder that has solved the play in the same fashion with complete success. Here is draft drawing that shows the parts involved. In my case it was only necessary to change the outer bolts: http://aero2012.scassel.se/Images/tailplanemod.PNG It is necessary to create a spanner with looong shank. I used a wooden stick and strapped the spanner to it. After 30-40 minutes and some swearing (not much) it was tight, very tight I may add. Additionally I made a thin black line, 4-5 cm long, on fuselage when TP trailing edge was fully down, parallel with TP skin. This reference line makes it very easy to catch very small play over time. So far the TP is still on the reference line. I check this on every pre flight. Best regards Stephan LN-STE Mono in Norway. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:43 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different Stephan=0Athat's a very neat solution. In fact it's probably the smartest a nswer I've seen yet.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F rom: Stephan Cassel =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 16 October 2012, 18:15=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mo d 73 - slightly different=0A =0A=0AHi Europa pilots/builders =0A=C2-=0AI did the mod 73 per instructions five years ago and at first it looked =0Ago od. After a short while the play was back.=0AMy assembly was perhaps a bit tighter then normal so the Loctite did not =0Apenetrate enough. =0A=C2- =0AIn order to get rid of the play I made =9Cspecial=9D washer, situated inside =0Athe torque tube. Now it was possible to tight the tubes hard together. =0AThe result was a zero play system. Complete solid for 5 year (340 hours) . =0AI know another builder that has solved the play in th e same fashion with =0Acomplete success.=0A=C2-=0AHere is draft drawing t hat shows the parts involved. In my case it was only =0Anecessary to change the outer bolts:=0A=C2-http://aero2012.scassel.se/Images/tailplanemod.PN G=0A=C2-=0AIt is necessary to create a spanner with looong shank. I used a wooden =0Astick and strapped the spanner to it. After 30-40 minutes and s ome swearing (not =0Amuch) it was tight, very tight I may add.=0A=C2-=0AA dditionally I made a thin black line, 4-5 cm long, on fuselage when TP =0At railing edge was fully down, parallel with TP skin. This reference line mak es =0Ait very easy to catch very small play over time.=0ASo far the TP is s till on the reference line. I check this on every pre =0Aflight. =0A=C2- =0ABest regards=0AStephan=0ALN-STE Mono in Norway.=0A=C2-=0A=0A=C2-=0A_ -======================== ============= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:00 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 From: "Alan Carter" Karl. I had forgotten about your solid core, so if you going to bond a solid alloy core inside the tube spanning both side your dowel hole, then clamping up. i would think that the tube is now stronger at that point, as you have re enforced it. If only the ruddy pins were accessible from a panel the job would be a piece of cake. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385502#385502 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:09 PM PST US From: "craig" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 I mentioned earlier I also went the solid core option, very quick and easy to do, However.. my lack of precision when drilling one of the outboard holes out to The 3/8 size resulted in a small misalignment between each of the tail planes (About 5mm at the back) so I had to remove one set of the drive pin bushes And re redux them in to correct this. I do however have my own lathe and mill And was able to turn and polish the alloy slugs that go inside the tube to a very Neat fit. Paying someone to do it you might be looking at an hour for the four slugs Regards craig Karl. I had forgotten about your solid core, so if you going to bond a solid alloy core inside the tube spanning both side your dowel hole, then clamping up. i would think that the tube is now stronger at that point, as you have re enforced it. If only the ruddy pins were accessible from a panel the job would be a piece of cake. Alan ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:29 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 From: "Alan Carter" Craig. Slugs over here are pests in the garden , but i know what you mean,all good ideas. Lots of solutions have been posted, But here in the UK the only options we have are Resizing the pins, Fitting Bob Harrison or Pat Tunny,s clamps, Re Loctite use, or fitting one of Europa,s updated tubes. Anything about inspection panel and access to the pins would be really usefall to UK owners, as the tube has to come out. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385505#385505 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different From: Kevin Kedward Hi guys, Maybe if a slot is machined across the flat side of the specia l washer the size of the nut across the flats there would be no need for a l ong handle and lots of swearing :) Regards Kevin Ps an EDM wire cutting m/c would do the job curve and all. Sent from my iPhone On 16 Oct 2012, at 21:47, GRAHAM SINGLETON w rote: > Stephan > that's a very neat solution. In fact it's probably the smartest answer I'v e seen yet. > Graham > > From: Stephan Cassel > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2012, 18:15 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 - slightly different > > Hi Europa pilots/builders > > I did the mod 73 per instructions five years ago and at first it looked go od. After a short while the play was back. > My assembly was perhaps a bit tighter then normal so the Loctite did not p enetrate enough. > > In order to get rid of the play I made =9Cspecial=9D washer, s ituated inside the torque tube. Now it was possible to tight the tubes hard t ogether. > The result was a zero play system. Complete solid for 5 year (340 hours) . I know another builder that has solved the play in the same fashion with co mplete success. > > Here is draft drawing that shows the parts involved. In my case it was onl y necessary to change the outer bolts: > http://aero2012.scassel.se/Images/tailplanemod.PNG > > It is necessary to create a spanner with looong shank. I used a wooden sti ck and strapped the spanner to it. After 30-40 minutes and some swearing (no t much) it was tight, very tight I may add. > > Additionally I made a thin black line, 4-5 cm long, on fuselage when TP tr ailing edge was fully down, parallel with TP skin. This reference line makes it very easy to catch very small play over time. > So far the TP is still on the reference line. I check this on every pre fl ight. > > Best regards > Stephan > LN-STE Mono in Norway. > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matroni clow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums. = --> > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:05 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 Alan- There has been some discussion on here about additional inspection ports or changing the size of those existing. As I recall, the recommendation was that you have any such changes reviewed by a structural engineer before making them. The concern is that these types of change may weaken a structural area. Jim Puglise N283JL Punta Gorda, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Carter" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 5:48:52 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 Craig. Slugs over here are pests in the garden , but i know what you mean,all good ideas. Lots of solutions have been posted, But here in the UK the only options we have are Resizing the pins, Fitting Bob Harrison or Pat Tunny,s clamps, Re Loctite use, or fitting one of Europa,s updated tubes. Anything about inspection panel and access to the pins would be really usefall to UK owners, as the tube has to come out. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385505#385505 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:40 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 Hi Alan=2C Your points about access are very valid. You can just about get to the pins =2C pull out the cotter pins etc. via the access window and viewing window every Europa is supposed to have=2C but it is a real bitch.My idea was to r eplace the round access hole with a larger rectangular opening=2C suitably re-enforced=2C but I was unable to get any engineering support on this. The idea of having to crawl into the fuselage for maintenance and mods is abso lutely absurd.Craig's and my ideas about the solid core are just common sen se. I will do my fix just as I described=2C but it is not on the top of my list at the moment. If you can get the faulty TP14 pin out=2C then you can do the same=2C but you probably wouldn't be able to tighten the pin or bolt =2C because there is no space at the back of the tube for a locknut=2C just a washer and cotter pin (at least on my Europa). You can still remove any play by turning the insert hard against the pin before the redux has cured. You are then as good as new and don't have to tell anyone about it. Cheers=2C Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 > From: alancarteresq@onetel.net > Date: Tue=2C 16 Oct 2012 14:48:52 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > t> > > Craig. > Slugs over here are pests in the garden =2C but i know what you mean=2Cal l good ideas. > Lots of solutions have been posted=2C But here in the UK the only options we have are Resizing the pins=2C Fitting Bob Harrison or Pat Tunny=2Cs cla mps=2C > Re Loctite use=2C or fitting one of Europa=2Cs updated tubes. > Anything about inspection panel and access to the pins would be really us efall to UK owners=2C as the tube has to come out. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385505#385505 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 73 From: "Alan Carter" Jim. Will make some use of my membership and ask the LAA , it would make the job much easier. Will post reply here. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385512#385512 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.