---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/29/12: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:02 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk) 2. 03:29 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 3. 04:14 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com) 4. 04:32 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (William Daniell) 5. 05:43 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 6. 05:58 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Peter Zutrauen) 7. 06:20 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Bob Harrison) 8. 07:09 AM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (William Daniell) 9. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Stabalator Flutter (Bud Yerly) 10. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: Working cabin heater (Bud Yerly) 11. 12:59 PM - Rudder (spcialeffects) 12. 01:23 PM - Re: Vapour lock? Why? (Bud Yerly) 13. 01:26 PM - Re: Rudder (Bud Yerly) 14. 01:50 PM - Re: Rudder (Richard Wheelwright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:43 AM PST US From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 31/07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: > > Snip .... /.....//I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada)//. He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean./ /........//Snip/ Kevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one. A year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 powered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the noise, but once safely back on the ground, I checked the filters (all clean). This aircraft was fitted with Europa specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you to see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared full, but as power was increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought was air. My first action was to check the pipework and security of connections - but everything seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air from anywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced vapour lock and left it at that. Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and stumbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I My conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size to trap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and creates a pressure drop in the fuel line. Nigel ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:12 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Nigel=0Aanother problem with those filters is that sometimes they look clea n but aren't because the contamination is translucent when wet with fuel; s o, more restriction.-=0AYou're right, they are too small. quite high fuel flow with a 914.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F rom: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" =0ATo: euro pa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 10:01=0ASubject: Re : Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why?=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AOn 31/07/2012 22:27, klinef elter.kevin@gmail.com Snip .........I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rot ech in canada). He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or torture d routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s) , on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Ma ybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are c lean.=0A........Snip=0A=0AKevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money wit h this one.- =0AA year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's=0A 914 powered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump=0A restored the noise, but once safely back on the ground, I check ed=0A the filters (all clean). This aircraft was fitted with Europa=0A specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you to see the=0A fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared full, but as power was=0A increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought was air. My=0A first action was to check the pipework and security of connections -=0A but everything seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air=0A fr om anywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced vapour lock=0A and left it at that.=0A=0ACuriosity got the better of me and I started research ing cavitation=0A and stumbled upon this very stilted, but interesting p resentation on=0A Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular,=0A the glass venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator=0A filters.=0A=0Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I =0A=0AMy conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size =0A to trap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and=0A ======= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:05 AM PST US From: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Nigel, Thanks for the link... Fascinating video. Kevin On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:01 AM, "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" wrote: > > On 31/07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Snip .... > .....I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada). He said he lea rned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation " at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pum p,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction o f flow) of the filter, even if they are clean. > ........ Snip > > Kevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one. > A year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 po wered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the noise , but once safely back on the ground, I checked the filters (all clean). Thi s aircraft was fitted with Europa specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you to see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared ful l, but as power was increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought w as air. My first action was to check the pipework and security of connection s - but everything seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air from a nywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced vapour lock and left it at t hat. > > Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and st umbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass venturi. T his was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I > > My conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size to tr ap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and creates a pressure drop in the fuel line. > > Nigel ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:03 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I plumbed those in - following the book - but I see they are probably not the ideal. So what's the most common solution? Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 October 2012 05:29 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Nigel another problem with those filters is that sometimes they look clean but aren't because the contamination is translucent when wet with fuel; so, more restriction. You're right, they are too small. quite high fuel flow with a 914. Graham _____ From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 10:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 31/07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: Snip .... .....I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada). He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean. ........ Snip Kevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one. A year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 powered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the noise, but once safely back on the ground, I checked the filters (all clean). This aircraft was fitted with Europa specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you to see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared full, but as power was increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought was air. My first action was to check the pipework and security of connections - but everything seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air from anywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced vapour lock and left it at that. Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and stumbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I My conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size to trap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and creates a pressure drop in the fuel line. Nigel http://www.matro=================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:23 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Best one is an Andair, not cheap though. The old Mini gascolator is too sma ll for a 914, GAS375 would be the one=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A______________ __________________=0A From: William Daniell =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 11:31=0A Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why?=0A =0A=0AI plumbed those in =93 following the book =93 but I see they are probably not the ide al.=0ASo what=99s the most common solution?=0AWill=0A=C2-=0AFrom:ow ner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON=0ASent: 29 October 2012 05:29=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why?=0A =C2-=0ANigel=0Aanother problem with those filters is that sometimes they look clean but aren't because the contamination is translucent when wet wit h fuel; so, more restriction.=C2-=0AYou're right, they are too small. qui te high fuel flow with a 914.=0AGraham=0A=C2-=0A=0A______________________ __________=0A=0AFrom:"nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 10: 01=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why?=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AOn 31/ 07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote:=0A--> Europa-List message posted by: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com=0A>=C2-=0A>Snip ....=0A.....I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada). He said he learned how to o small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the p umps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are cau sing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean.=0A........ Snip=0A=0AKevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one.=C2- =0AA year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 powered Europa on a ho t day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the noise, but once safely b ack on the ground, I checked the filters (all clean). This aircraft was fit ted with Europa specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you t o see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared full, but as power was increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought was air. My fir st action was to check the pipework and security of connections - but every thing seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air from anywhere. I t hen concluded that I had experienced vapour lock and left it at that.=0A=0A Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and stu mbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters.=0A=0Ahttp://www.youtu be.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I=0A=0AMy conclusion is that the Purolator filte r has the correct mesh size to trap contaminants, but the filter capacity i s too small and creates a pressure drop in the fuel line.=0A=0ANigel=0Ahttp ://www.matro=====================0A =C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Euro pa-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contributi ================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:55 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? a second alternative: http://www.stevesaircraft.com/gascolator.php not cheap either tho. Cheers, Pete On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 8:40 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON < grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Best one is an Andair, not cheap though. The old Mini gascolator is too > small for a 914, GAS375 would be the one > > Graham > > ------------------------------ > *From:* William Daniell > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, 29 October 2012, 11:31 > *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? > > I plumbed those in ' following the book ' but I see they are probably not > the ideal. > So what=92s the most common solution? > Will > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *GRAHAM SINGLETON > *Sent:* 29 October 2012 05:29 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? > > Nigel > another problem with those filters is that sometimes they look clean but > aren't because the contamination is translucent when wet with fuel; so, > more restriction. > You're right, they are too small. quite high fuel flow with a 914. > Graham > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, 29 October 2012, 10:01 > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? > > > On 31/07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Snip .... > > *.....I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada). He said he > learned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause > "cavitation" at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction > side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the > size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean.* > *........ Snip* > > Kevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one. > A year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 > powered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the > noise, but once safely back on the ground, I checked the filters (all > clean). This aircraft was fitted with Europa specified Purolator glass > shrouded filters that allow you to see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the > filter appeared full, but as power was increased, the filter began to fil l > with what I thought was air. My first action was to check the pipework an d > security of connections - but everything seemed fine - it was definitely > not drawing in air from anywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced > vapour lock and left it at that. > > Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and > stumbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. > Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass > venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I > > My conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size to > trap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and creates a > pressure drop in the fuel line. > > Nigel > > *http://www.matro================== ==* > > * * > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L="nofollow" target="_blan k" href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi= > * > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:12 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I use two Mini Andair Gascolators one on each fuel line for my 914 and one was satisfactory when I had the early gas guzzling Jabiru 3300 and was the butt of all fuel dispensing pump sites. Regards to all. Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 October 2012 12:40 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Best one is an Andair, not cheap though. The old Mini gascolator is too small for a 914, GAS375 would be the one Graham _____ From: William Daniell Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 11:31 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I plumbed those in =93 following the book =93 but I see they are probably not the ideal. So what=99s the most common solution? Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 October 2012 05:29 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Nigel another problem with those filters is that sometimes they look clean but aren't because the contamination is translucent when wet with fuel; so, more restriction. You're right, they are too small. quite high fuel flow with a 914. Graham _____ From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 10:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 31/07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: Snip .... .....I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada). He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean. ........ Snip Kevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one. A year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 powered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the noise, but once safely back on the ground, I checked the filters (all clean). This aircraft was fitted with Europa specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you to see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared full, but as power was increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought was air. My first action was to check the pipework and security of connections - but everything seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air from anywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced vapour lock and left it at that. Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and stumbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I My conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size to trap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and creates a pressure drop in the fuel line. Nigel http://www.matro =================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L= "nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi= ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:20 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Mmm yes thanks. It would seem to me that the two fuel lines offer an opportunity to insert redundancy in the fuel filters. Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison Sent: 29 October 2012 08:20 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I use two Mini Andair Gascolators one on each fuel line for my 914 and one was satisfactory when I had the early gas guzzling Jabiru 3300 and was the butt of all fuel dispensing pump sites. Regards to all. Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 October 2012 12:40 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Best one is an Andair, not cheap though. The old Mini gascolator is too small for a 914, GAS375 would be the one Graham _____ From: William Daniell Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 11:31 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I plumbed those in =93 following the book =93 but I see they are probably not the ideal. So what=99s the most common solution? Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 October 2012 05:29 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Nigel another problem with those filters is that sometimes they look clean but aren't because the contamination is translucent when wet with fuel; so, more restriction. You're right, they are too small. quite high fuel flow with a 914. Graham _____ From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 10:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 31/07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: Snip .... .....I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada). He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean. ........ Snip Kevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one. A year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 powered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the noise, but once safely back on the ground, I checked the filters (all clean). This aircraft was fitted with Europa specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you to see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared full, but as power was increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought was air. My first action was to check the pipework and security of connections - but everything seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air from anywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced vapour lock and left it at that. Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and stumbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I My conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size to trap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and creates a pressure drop in the fuel line. Nigel http://www.matro =================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L= "nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:26 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Stabalator Flutter On Flutter, We dumb engineers really enjoy collecting testing video. The Comanche video and others were setups to determine failure modes. For instance, if you forget to hook up the trim tab or you have forgotten to check that the bushes are installed in the stab or trim rod, or the bearing in your Comanche has failed and you didn't note it on the trim tab preflight that it had 1/4 inch of play. We just had a twin Cessna (conventional stabilizer and elevator) here in Plant City that has severe cracking in its trim tab due to poor maintenance. The owner and inspector did not notice or think it a problem that the trim tab had play in it and upon investigation, the bearing in the trim rod had disengaged from the socket and the trim tab moved 1/4 inch on its own... Any control surface can flutter so it is best to note how much play is in the bearings, hinges, quick disconnects etc. in any aircraft that flies above 120 KIAS. Pay particular attention to those controls which are not balanced on a wing, or tail (Rudders are normally not balanced if near vertical in non aerobatic aircraft. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Carter To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:35 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Stabalator Flutter > Wow Bud, that,s pretty scary stuff, have a lot of hours on Twin Coms. glad i knew nothing about flutter then, what happened to it in the video. Well i got the first bit right, slow down, but have not that brutal tail-plane you mention, only have a foam one!, and yes i do have a hang up on tail planes maybe its because i can,t see it. There have been some excellent ideas posted on MOD 73 . how to elimination play and wear in the Toque tube, and this question is just an extension of that topic, so hoping for some airman-ship replies also. Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385727#385727 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:19 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Working cabin heater Photo E-mail View slideshow | Download images Jacques, I have been building a similar cabin heater for about 6 years. It is fine until about -10 C. The duct has to be quite well sealed and since most of the heat comes from the oil cooler, if a thermostat is installed one cannot expect it to heat as much. In my experience my oil temps in winter run about 160F or 70C. The air out of the back side of the cooler is normally just under 100F or about 35C. N12AY is pretty tight and my air vents seal pretty well so little air rushes into the cockpit through the inspection holes and center tunnel as I have it all well sealed. Just the sun shine keeps me in winter clothes fairly comfortable. If I close off the oil cooler with a plate over it, that cuts the air flow too much. Unfortunately, I am in Florida, so it rarely gets super cold here. The the mono tends to be drafty through the tunnel and is asking too much from my little heater (basically the same as the Europa Club mod). My only suggestion for a constant high temp source is to pull the coolant from the engine using a similar hookup to the carb heat mod, and use a small oil cooler (or a simple 3/16 inch copper tube coil and fan in the cockpit to bring up the temp for bitter temps.) Where to put it becomes a real problem. I have not been a fan of pulling heat from a muff from the muffler or exhaust system as it is a Carbon Monoxide problem so I will not comment. Sorry I can't help any more. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: ploucandco To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:01 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Working cabin heater > Thanks Ian. I saw this one as well. The goal is to get +15C in the cabin when the outside air is -20C. Do you or someone else have positive experience that this system will provide this +35C difference in temperature? Sorry to be difficult but I read a few times that such heater will work well when the engine is running hot. Mine is running cool in winter. Jacques Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385943#385943 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution These photos will be available on SkyDrive for 30 days. To learn more about SkyDrive, click here. To share high quality pictures with your friends and family using MSN Photo E-mail, join MSN. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:17 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Rudder From: "spcialeffects" Just thought i'd ask if anyone has a rudder core that is not needed and not started for sale? Rather than repair mine id like to start again. I have vacuum bagged mine and bent the flange that the hinges bond too. Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386227#386227 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:03 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Gents, I have not had the opportunity to have cavitation or problems with fuel vaporization on my or any of my 914 engine installations. I have had problems with the pumps pulling air from gascolators in the Europa. I do not install them for a number of reasons, primarily as the tank is lower than the gascolator (so the gascolator doesn't trap water, instead it only can trap large particles (which the tank screen should do), act as a filter), and should the seal be just a bit loose or broken, air is sucked into the fuel lines by the pump and in some cases the pump can not self prime. I have also had loose filters, and other things as below. The main problems I have seen are: The fuel fittings or selector valves which are too restrictive (less than 1/4 inch ID for the fuel). Avoid items of cheap quality (normally brass from China). The Purolator fuel filters are assembled too loose and suck air by the gasket when the pump is engaged. Note that under high flow rates over 10 GPH the Purolators do cavitate the fuel. Not so under normal operations. The fuel filter is assembled backwards by the owner. Gascolators installed of dubious quality/or maintained poorly, with wrench marks and dented cans from excessive force used to install or remove them. Once the seal is broken, one may not see a leak but prime is lost, especially at low fuel tank levels. Owner uses a unique fuel line installation which goes next to the muffler, then over the top of the engine to the carb on a 912S without any fire sleeve. Kinked fuel lines in the central tunnel unnoticed during the build. Auto filters using cheap paper which restrict fuel flow if wet. Test Test Test non aviation filters. Failure to install fire sleeve, instead they use thermosleeve which holds radiated heat away but has no insulation. Vaporization also is more common when the lines are routed so as to have a bend forming a high spot in line, in a hot area of the engine compartment. This is a problem in the tail dragger Europa as the highest spot in the fuel system is the top of the engine, so a vapor bubble from heat can form easily when attempting a hot start. The 914 has a noticeable return flow and the 912S has an orifice that allows modest flow and allows the vapor to bleed if the orifice is near the carbs and not really low in the return line at the tank. The new 912 fuel manifold seems to work well mounted up on the cross over tube in the trigear. Fuel pumps normally take care of any heat problems in the fuel as cool fuel flows quickly through the system. However if the engine is off, fuel may not flow enough to cool the lines in a 912S that are installed directly in contact with the top of the engine. The vapor then can build up in the high spot on top of the hot engine. With the carb bowls full of fuel, the cool fuel does not flow very fast past the orifice if it installed very low. Hence the need that the orifice on the return is high up to clear the vapor. Some suggestions are: If one is concerned about flow, two filters in parallel, properly installed, could solve filter clogging where poor fuel quality is common. Install 3/8 lines to slow the flow, but this means less room in tight spots and more connector step downs and more parts to buy. Make sure you are assembling the fuel system in accordance with acceptable methods and standards and or follow the Europa install manual to the letter. After all, it works, but it is the minimum necessary to do the job. Failure to allow for sufficient cooling air in the cowl over the carbs and fuel lines is a problem also, especially with the 912/912S. The 914 lines are at the rear and if clear of the exhaust and the fuel pump delivers proper flow, all is well. Stay away from ethanol laced gasoline as it vaporizes very well and kills seals. Be sure the fuel pump is of the proper size and type recommended as the system is designed for that pump. Hot start problems in the 914 can be irritating as the intake manifold is quite warm after shutdown, as are the fuel lines and carbs. The vapor in the carbs flows into the intake plenum and manifold and leaves a super rich charge in the plenum which will delay start. Many of us crank the engine with the fuel pump off or selector off until it hits, then turn the pump/selector on to keep it running. At higher altitudes and density altitude conditions, it is much worse. This is not a cavitation problem but pure vaporization of fuel in the intake of course. Glad to confuse the issue. Regards, Bud Yerly Tech Support ----- Original Message ----- From: William Daniell To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Mmm yes thanks. It would seem to me that the two fuel lines offer an opportunity to insert redundancy in the fuel filters. Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison Sent: 29 October 2012 08:20 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I use two Mini Andair Gascolators one on each fuel line for my 914 and one was satisfactory when I had the early gas guzzling Jabiru 3300 and was the butt of all fuel dispensing pump sites. Regards to all. Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 October 2012 12:40 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Best one is an Andair, not cheap though. The old Mini gascolator is too small for a 914, GAS375 would be the one Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: William Daniell > To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 11:31 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? I plumbed those in =93 following the book =93 but I see they are probably not the ideal. So what=99s the most common solution? Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 October 2012 05:29 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? Nigel another problem with those filters is that sometimes they look clean but aren't because the contamination is translucent when wet with fuel; so, more restriction. You're right, they are too small. quite high fuel flow with a 914. Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" > To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 10:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vapour lock? Why? On 31/07/2012 22:27, klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com wrote: klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com Snip .... .....I was chatting with Rob Seaton ( of Rotech in canada). He said he learned how too small a fuel line and/or tortured routing can cause "cavitation" at the pumps. So maybe your fuel filter(s), on the suction side of the pump,are causing cavitation in the pump(s). Maybe due to the size (restriction of flow) of the filter, even if they are clean. ........ Snip Kevin, I think Rob Seaton may be on the money with this one. A year or so back, I experienced a dead cut while flying a friend's 914 powered Europa on a hot day. Nifty application of fuel pump restored the noise, but once safely back on the ground, I checked the filters (all clean). This aircraft was fitted with Europa specified Purolator glass shrouded filters that allow you to see the fuel flowing. At low RPM, the filter appeared full, but as power was increased, the filter began to fill with what I thought was air. My first action was to check the pipework and security of connections - but everything seemed fine - it was definitely not drawing in air from anywhere. I then concluded that I had experienced vapour lock and left it at that. Curiosity got the better of me and I started researching cavitation and stumbled upon this very stilted, but interesting presentation on Youtube. Take a look at the first minute from 00.20 - in particular, the glass venturi. This was exactly what I saw in the Purolator filters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_w3gcvA87I My conclusion is that the Purolator filter has the correct mesh size to trap contaminants, but the filter capacity is too small and creates a pressure drop in the fuel line. Nigel http://www.matro============= ====== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:29 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rudder Perhaps a few minutes with your cutoff wheel will correct your problem with a couple of layers of glass and some straight edges. Cheaper and frankly faster. Please send a photo direct to me. Bud Yerly Tech Support www.budyerly@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: spcialeffects To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 3:58 PM Subject: Europa-List: Rudder > Just thought i'd ask if anyone has a rudder core that is not needed and not started for sale? Rather than repair mine id like to start again. I have vacuum bagged mine and bent the flange that the hinges bond too. Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386227#386227 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:08 PM PST US From: Richard Wheelwright Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rudder I have a rudder ready laid up with the hinges attached. It has a cutout for Grahams Rudder mod. But has the bottom corner missing. Can be fixed easily . ( I used it to fix my original) Contact me off list if you are interested =0A-=0A=0A=0A==================== =0A=0ARichard Wheelwright=0A=============== ======0A=0AFrom: spcialeffects =0ATo: euro pa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 19:58=0ASubject: Eu spcialeffects@aol.com>=0A=0AJust thought i'd ask if anyone has a rudder cor e that is not needed and not started for sale? Rather than repair mine id l ike to start again. I have vacuum bagged mine and bent the flange that the hinges bond too. Thanks=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahtt p://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386227#386227=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =============== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.