Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:43 AM - Antenna installations (fireflier)
2. 02:22 AM - Re: Antenna installations (houlihan)
3. 02:53 AM - what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson)
4. 03:58 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Christoph Both)
5. 05:18 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson)
6. 05:37 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Christoph Both)
7. 06:50 AM - Mountain wave flying (Remi Guerner)
8. 07:09 AM - Re: Mountain wave flying (Max Cointe)
9. 07:28 AM - Re: Antenna installations (Frans Veldman)
10. 07:34 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman)
11. 07:40 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman)
12. 07:58 AM - Re: Mountain wave flying (Remi Guerner)
13. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Trevpond@aol.com)
14. 08:33 AM - Re: Antenna installations (skanderup)
15. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Max Cointe)
16. 08:39 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Brian Davies)
17. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: Antenna installations (Frans Veldman)
18. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Frans Veldman)
19. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Antenna installations (houlihan)
20. 09:52 AM - Re: Mountain wave flying (Remi Guerner)
21. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Antenna installations (Frans Veldman)
22. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
23. 10:53 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson)
24. 11:00 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 (Gary Leinberger)
25. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Robert Borger)
26. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 (Peter Zutrauen)
27. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Jeff B)
28. 12:09 PM - Fw: Plafond de mon Europa (mau11)
29. 12:34 PM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman)
30. 02:07 PM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson)
31. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Kingsley Hurst)
32. 03:03 PM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman)
33. 03:34 PM - Re: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa (Pete)
34. 10:11 PM - Re: Re: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa (mau11)
Message 1
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Subject: | Antenna installations |
Hello everyone
I'm now at the stage of thinking about the installation of antenna's for my comm
& transponder. The reason for my post is to seek the opinion of fellow forum
members on the best location to install the antenna's and also to ask what antenna's
people have used?
I have been looking at the following nav/comm antenna
http://shop.airworlduk.com/high-gain-nav--com-antenna-5t-302140-1080-p.asp
Has anyone got any experience of this antenna? I would be interested to hear your
thoughts and reviews of it.
I look forward to receiving your thoughts & comments with regards to correct antenna
selection, placement within aircraft etc.
Many thanks for your time reading my post.
Kind regards
Donald.
--------
Fireflier
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389723#389723
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Antenna installations |
Re aerials for Comms etc.
What is wrong with the aerial described in the build manual ?
The link you sent shows a di pole aerial and claims its Hi gain ! ! how
hi-gain ? It is not stated but is probably a 1/2 wave dipole exactly like
the one described in the manual.
It also states that it can be used within the wingtip of a metal
aircraft " They
will work in metal airframes when a plastic or fiberglass wing tip or
similar plastic component is available to provide the mounting structure"
that implies that the aerial is mounted horizontally ( unless the wing is
several feet thick ) and so will not match the comms VHF system which is
vertically polarised.
I recently had a problem with my standard fin closeout mounted aerial but
that was caused by a poor intermittent contact in the BNC connecter . When
it was connected correctly it seemed to be delivering perfectly adequate
performance at a much lower price.
I am sure that experts will have their views on this but my reading of the
article raises real technical questions regarding the claims made in it.
Tim H
G-BZTH
p.s. a length of RG58 coax with the last 1/2 meter or so stripped out and
the inner core and outer screen separated and mounted vertically one up and
one down will act as a very usable aerial
On 3 December 2012 09:42, fireflier <fireflier@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone
>
> I'm now at the stage of thinking about the installation of antenna's for
> my comm & transponder. The reason for my post is to seek the opinion of
> fellow forum members on the best location to install the antenna's and also
> to ask what antenna's people have used?
>
> I have been looking at the following nav/comm antenna
>
> http://shop.airworlduk.com/high-gain-nav--com-antenna-5t-302140-1080-p.asp
>
> Has anyone got any experience of this antenna? I would be interested to
> hear your thoughts and reviews of it.
>
> I look forward to receiving your thoughts & comments with regards to
> correct antenna selection, placement within aircraft etc.
>
> Many thanks for your time reading my post.
>
> Kind regards
> Donald.
>
> --------
> Fireflier
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389723#389723
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
My Rotax 912S did not come with leads for killing the mags (what are normally called
p-leads in standard aircraft practice). I almost bought some screened cable
that was on special offer at the LAA Rally, but couldn't get any assurance
from the vendor that it would be suitable for leads to the mag switches - ie
sufficiently high voltage rating.
Is there any recommendation for a type of cable to use for the leads to the Rotax
mag switches? Or can anyone tell me what the voltage rating for mag leads ought
to be?
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
Rowland:
Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins you
need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box. In
Canada it was recommended to use a minimum of 18AWG shielded aircraft type
wire. My Rotax came with two pins you need to insert into the not yet
filled and marked "br" brown section of the Molex Type fastener mounted to
each of the ignition modules. You need a good crimping tool to make the
connection to the wire and I would use shrink wrap to lessen vibration
problems between wire and fastener. Make sure the wire is routed without
too much tension and well supported. Rotax specifies that both ends of the
shielded wire be grounded and that the wire be routed as much as possible
away from other wires, antennas, etc. to minimize interference. I am using
a separate through the firewall conduit to allow this.
Christoph Both
#223 Classic 912S,finalizing CLASSIC engine installation
Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
On 12-12-03 6:52 AM, "Rowland Carson" <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> wrote:
><rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
>
>My Rotax 912S did not come with leads for killing the mags (what are
>normally called p-leads in standard aircraft practice). I almost bought
>some screened cable that was on special offer at the LAA Rally, but
>couldn't get any assurance from the vendor that it would be suitable for
>leads to the mag switches - ie sufficiently high voltage rating.
>
>Is there any recommendation for a type of cable to use for the leads to
>the Rotax mag switches? Or can anyone tell me what the voltage rating for
>mag leads ought to be?
>
>in friendship
>
>Rowland
>
>| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
>| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
>| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
>| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
>
>
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:57, Christoph Both wrote:
> Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins you
> need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box
Christoph - thanks for your message. I've got the blank pins that came with the
engine, and an assortment of crimping tools, one of which I'm sure will be equal
to the task.
I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will be OK for the
high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in ignition circuits. In my
youth I was involved in the development of colour TV for UK transmission and so
did some poking around in boxes that had 30kV lurking inside. I was impressed
by the way such voltages could walk across things that I have previously regarded
as insulators. Similarly, (before I switched to driving a diesel car) I've
been amused by the capability of car ignition voltages to find a route to earth
that did NOT involve the appropriate spark plug. So, I am approaching this
question with some respect for the physics involved.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
I am planning to use a small diameter grounding strap conduit to run the
shielded 18AWG wires in, similar to the Rotax shielded AC power coming
from the engine. This should contain any problems.
C
On 12-12-03 9:18 AM, "Rowland Carson" <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> wrote:
><rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
>
>On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:57, Christoph Both wrote:
>
>> Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins
>>you
>> need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box
>
>Christoph - thanks for your message. I've got the blank pins that came
>with the engine, and an assortment of crimping tools, one of which I'm
>sure will be equal to the task.
>
>I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will be OK
>for the high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in ignition
>circuits. In my youth I was involved in the development of colour TV for
>UK transmission and so did some poking around in boxes that had 30kV
>lurking inside. I was impressed by the way such voltages could walk
>across things that I have previously regarded as insulators. Similarly,
>(before I switched to driving a diesel car) I've been amused by the
>capability of car ignition voltages to find a route to earth that did NOT
>involve the appropriate spark plug. So, I am approaching this question
>with some respect for the physics involved.
>
>in friendship
>
>Rowland
>
>| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
>| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
>| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
>| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Mountain wave flying |
Hi all,
I had an interesting flight today and cannot resist the pleasure to share the attached
pictures with you. I climbed to 11000 ft over the Gap area, french south
Alps, to catch a mountain wave, then reduced power to idle and flew almost
for free for 10 minutes gaining about 1000 ft . Facing into the wind with 55 kts
IAS, my ground speed was 19 kts. Then I turned downwind with full throttle
and 5000 RPM and got 194 kts on the GPS. I was impressed by the distance I covered
in a few minutes at that speed !
Remi
F-PGKL XS Monowheel , 912ULS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389739#389739
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030010a_105.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030009a_115.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030008a_191.jpg
Message 8
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Subject: | Mountain wave flying |
Hi Remi,
Lucky you! I wish I could have been on the right seat and have a look
outside during that flight. Any picture?
Max Cointe
F-PMLH Europa_TriGear
Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours
mcointe@free.fr
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Antenna installations |
On 12/03/2012 10:42 AM, fireflier wrote:
> I have been looking at the following nav/comm antenna
>
> http://shop.airworlduk.com/high-gain-nav--com-antenna-5t-302140-1080-p.asp
Humbug.
Go for the antenna as proposed in the build manual. That is a half wave
dipole, correctly polarized, and there is just nothing that can beat a
vertical half wave antenna in an aircraft. No antenna can give you more
gain, except when compromising the radiation pattern thus sacrificing
some coverage, which might be fine for a stationary antenna, but not for
an aircraft.
As for connecting multiple devices to one antenna: don't do it. You will
create ground loops, difficult to troubleshoot interference, etc.
Frans
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
On 12/03/2012 11:52 AM, Rowland Carson wrote:
> My Rotax 912S did not come with leads for killing the mags (what are
> normally called p-leads in standard aircraft practice). I almost
> bought some screened cable that was on special offer at the LAA
> Rally, but couldn't get any assurance from the vendor that it would
> be suitable for leads to the mag switches - ie sufficiently high
> voltage rating.
I recently wrote a private message to someone else about this subject.
You may be interested in it:
I have not earthed it at all, I even didn't use shielded cable. I think
the diagram only shows it that way because it makes a less confusing
drawing. The whole point of the diagram is that you need to connect the
ignition wire to ground in order to kill the ignition. If you have a
ground bus in the cockpit anyway (I'm sure you have), you should use
that to connect to the switch, and just run a standard non shielded
cable from the ignition to the switch.
(Shielding is necessary for cables which carry radio signals or are
sensitive for picking up noise, your ignition wire doesn't fit into
either category).
If your starter switch is already connected somehow to ground, you
should NOT connect both ends of the shield! Otherwise the shield of the
ignition wire will act as a shortcut for the other ground connection.
This might route heavy currents through the shield, it may get hot and
melt the insulation between the two layers, stopping the engine! In
other words, from the starter switch there may only be ONE path to ground.
So, it is either that you connect the starter switch to ground via the
ignition shield, or that you connect the starter switch via another path
to ground, but not both at the same time. Explaining this goes a long
way, trust me on this.
I would recommend option 2, to connect the starter switch to some ground
bus bar somewhere in the cockpit, and forget the whole shield, or
connect only one end of the shield in case you really insist to have the
shield.
Use plastic ty wraps or some other
"soft" way to keep the cable in place. Preferably use some sleeve at the
places where you clamp it with the ty wraps, to avoid any stress points,
chafing, etc. This is a very important wire, if it connects somehow to
ground your engine will stop. Securing it with a metal screw is
dangerous, the metal screw may work its way through the cable connecting
the shield to the core, and this effectively stops the engine.
Just give the starter switch its own ground connection, and run a normal
teflon wire in one piece from the engine terminal to the switch,
securing that cable at strategic places with ty wraps, making sure it
can never chafe even if the engine starts vibrating madly. Remember,
earthing it kills the ignition, so if the insulation chafes through and
the metal wire inside touches any metal object connected to ground, your
engine will stop.
If you feel unsure about soldering or routing the cable, or lack the
correct tools, seek professional help. This is not a cable to fool with.
Frans
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
On 12/03/2012 02:18 PM, Rowland Carson wrote:
> I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will
> be OK for the high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in
> ignition circuits.
We are not talking here about the HT-leads to the spark plugs, but about
the ignition kill wire.
> In my youth I was involved in the development of
> colour TV for UK transmission and so did some poking around in boxes
> that had 30kV lurking inside. I was impressed by the way such
> voltages could walk across things that I have previously regarded as
> insulators.
I'm sure you must have been impressed ;-), but the Rotax ignition kill
circuit is far from comparable to the 30kV of your colour TV's. It is
just low voltage.
Frans
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
Hi Max,
The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre
Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border.
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
Hi Remi,
What a picture, that's what I call flying - lucky so and so, our strip is
like a mud pie!
regards
Trev G-LINN
In a message dated 03/12/2012 15:58:54 GMT Standard Time,
air.guerner@orange.fr writes:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner@orange.fr>
Hi Max,
The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows
the Serre Pon=C3=A7on dam and mountains at the french italian border.
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Antenna installations |
Hi,
Now the talk is on antennas, I would like to ask the forum for your guidance on
ground plane.
I have purchased a nice antenna for my transponder and it requires a ground plane
(which a GP aircraft does not provide automatically like a metal plane...)
Any good advise on how to make one, materials, sizes etc?
Any advise and photos is much appreciated.
Regards,
Allan Skanderup Nielsen
Kit 0622, OY-EEK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389752#389752
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
Remi,
This is what I call a "destination for nice flight"! Don't be surprised if I
pop-up next spring or autumn...
Max Cointe
F-PMLH Europa_TriGear
Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours
mcointe@free.fr
-----Message d'origine-----
De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Remi Guerner
Envoy: lundi 3 dcembre 2012 16:58
: europa-list@matronics.com
Objet: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying
--> <air.guerner@orange.fr>
Hi Max,
The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the
Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border.
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg
Message 16
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Subject: | what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
Hi Rowland,
I used standard aircraft grade screened cable and have not had any problems.
As the ignition modules are not really magnetos I suspect we are simply
controlling a transistor.
Regards
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson
Sent: 03 December 2012 13:18
Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads
--> <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:57, Christoph Both wrote:
> Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins
> you need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box
Christoph - thanks for your message. I've got the blank pins that came with
the engine, and an assortment of crimping tools, one of which I'm sure will
be equal to the task.
I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will be OK
for the high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in ignition circuits.
In my youth I was involved in the development of colour TV for UK
transmission and so did some poking around in boxes that had 30kV lurking
inside. I was impressed by the way such voltages could walk across things
that I have previously regarded as insulators. Similarly, (before I switched
to driving a diesel car) I've been amused by the capability of car ignition
voltages to find a route to earth that did NOT involve the appropriate spark
plug. So, I am approaching this question with some respect for the physics
involved.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Antenna installations |
On 12/03/2012 05:32 PM, skanderup wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Now the talk is on antennas, I would like to ask the forum for your guidance
on ground plane.
>
> I have purchased a nice antenna for my transponder and it requires a ground plane
(which a GP aircraft does not provide automatically like a metal plane...)
I hope you bought the TED antenna as it is the best available and also
very affordable.
A ground plane should be at least a quarter wave in radius. Quarter wave
is the lenght of the antenna rod. A larger ground plane is ok, but has
not much additional benefit.
In my tri-gear I cut out the monowheel opening and use an aluminium
plate to cover it. I mounted the antenna on the underside of the metal
plate, and it works very well.
As these radio waves are going through the glass fuselage, you could
mount the antenna somewhere inside as well, and use any metal plate
available. It is advisable to mount the antenna "upside down", that is,
the metal rod sticking down. Beware of "shadows" like from the engine,
so keep it as low as possible.
Frans
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
On 12/03/2012 04:57 PM, Remi Guerner wrote:
>
> Hi Max,
> The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the
Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border.
I recognize the area very well as the parents of my wife live in the
valley on the right, have been there numerous times. Although my
destination field is usually LFQB and I'm actually flying IN that valley
rather than above.
Regarding the mountain waves, I guess the mistral is active? I tried
flying there once with that going on, but I was in for a very wild ride
while still below the mountain tops.
Also I remember having been flying there once with a C172, climbing with
1000 ft/minute with the throttle closed, which was actually quite scary
as I was already at 12000 ft, no oxygen, and no sign of easing down on
the unvoluntary climb, until I escaped in the right direction.
Anyway, I have never been there in winter time, too far from home in
unpredictable weather with too short daylime to make it there in one
day. It looks beautiful with all that snow!
Is LFNA actually open in the winter?
Frans
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Subject: | Re: Antenna installations |
I agree entirely with Frans reply,
I was told during a conversation with the Trigg development engineers some
time ago not to use a perfectly circular ground plane at the calculated
diameter as it could possibly resonate and interfere with the signal in
some way , the reasoning as to why was well above my pay grade .
It is very easy to avoid this phenomena by making the ground plane slightly
irregular.
I use this as a reason for all my little add on bits being slightly
irregular. :<)
Tim
On 3 December 2012 16:53, Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl> wrote:
>
> On 12/03/2012 05:32 PM, skanderup wrote:
> allan_skanderup@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Now the talk is on antennas, I would like to ask the forum for your
> guidance on ground plane.
> >
> > I have purchased a nice antenna for my transponder and it requires a
> ground plane (which a GP aircraft does not provide automatically like a
> metal plane...)
>
> I hope you bought the TED antenna as it is the best available and also
> very affordable.
> A ground plane should be at least a quarter wave in radius. Quarter wave
> is the lenght of the antenna rod. A larger ground plane is ok, but has
> not much additional benefit.
>
> In my tri-gear I cut out the monowheel opening and use an aluminium
> plate to cover it. I mounted the antenna on the underside of the metal
> plate, and it works very well.
>
> As these radio waves are going through the glass fuselage, you could
> mount the antenna somewhere inside as well, and use any metal plate
> available. It is advisable to mount the antenna "upside down", that is,
> the metal rod sticking down. Beware of "shadows" like from the engine,
> so keep it as low as possible.
>
> Frans
>
>
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
Hi Frans,
It was very windy at altitude of course but the flight was mostly smooth. Calm
winds on the ground. Yes Gap Tallard is open all year round as is Barcelonnette
(I landed there last Saturday). After a snow fall, a closure is likely for a
few days as they can come to plow the runway only after ALL roads in the area
have been cleaned up.
I hope to see you there one day.
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389763#389763
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Subject: | Re: Antenna installations |
On 12/03/2012 06:42 PM, houlihan wrote:
> I agree entirely with Frans reply,
> I was told during a conversation with the Trigg development engineers
> some time ago not to use a perfectly circular ground plane at the
> calculated diameter as it could possibly resonate and interfere with the
> signal in some way , the reasoning as to why was well above my pay grade .
>
> It is very easy to avoid this phenomena by making the ground plane
> slightly irregular.
Reason of this is that if it is exactly circular, it resonates at
exactly one frequency, i.e. it is very narrow banded. The transmitting
and receiving of the transponders is on different frequencies, so you
need to avoid extremely narrow banded antenna's. Keep in mind that
resonance not only happens at one quarter wavelength, but also at
multiplies and certain fractions of the wavelength. If you use a true
circular ground plane chances are you are hitting a resonant somewhere.
If it is not exactly 1/4th maybe it happens to be 5/16th?
If you make the ground plane a little bit irregular, each frequency is
able to find a matching resonant size somewhere on this shape, so the
sum of the total lengths possible results in a much wider band width.
Electromagnetic resonance is quite similar to accoustic resonance, I
guess if you try to build a quitar with a circular body it would be
difficult to tune and some notes would play much louder than others,
hence the irregular shape of guitars, which function to make its
frequency response (resonance) much wider than that of a circular shape.
So, put the antenna not exactly in the middle if you use a circular
ground plane, or better yet, use a rectangular ground plane, so the
electrons see various distances to the edge of the ground plane.
I guess a guitar shaped ground plane would serve your transponder also
very well. ;-)
Frans
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
What's even more frustrating is the sight of-beautiful- lenticulars at
10 or 15 000 feet well inside controlled air space. I have flown a Europa C
lassic in wave (with Roger Mills)=0Awe were scooting along at 110kts thrott
le closed and going up over Derbyshire, where I live. Wonderful when you hi
t the wave how the aeroplane smiles to itself as the=0Aair goes silky smoot
h. The wind noise is totally different.=0AGraham=0A=0A_____________________
___________=0A From: "Trevpond@aol.com" <Trevpond@aol.com>=0ATo: europa-lis
t@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 3 December 2012, 16:08=0ASubject: Re: Euro
pa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying=0A =0A=0AHi Remi,=0A-=0AWhat a picture,
that's what I call flying - lucky so and so, our strip is =0Alike a mud pi
e!=0A-=0Aregards=0A-=0ATrev G-LINN=0A-=0AIn a message dated 03/12/201
2 15:58:54 GMT Standard Time, =0Aair.guerner@orange.fr writes:=0A--> Europ
a-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner@orange.fr>=0A>=0A>Hi
Max,=0A>The attached picture taken =0A this morning from 10000 ft looking
east shows the Serre Pon=C3=A7on dam and =0A mountains at the french ital
ian border.=0A>Remi=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this =0A topic online =0A her
e:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Attachments: =0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc0
=========================0A
====================
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
On 3 Dec 2012, at 15:34, Frans Veldman wrote:
> I have not earthed it at all, I even didn't use shielded cable. I
think
> the diagram only shows it that way because it makes a less confusing
> drawing. The whole point of the diagram is that you need to connect
the
> ignition wire to ground in order to kill the ignition
Frans - thanks for your message.
Yes, I appreciate that the purpose of the "P-lead" is to allow the
ignition to be short-circuited to earth and so prevent sparks at the
plugs - much the same as that bit of bent metal you sometimes see on
lawnmower engines (which also tend to have magneto ignition) that shorts
the top of the spark plug to the case. Of course that is working on the
HT side of the circuit and I understand now that "P-leads" are usually
connected to the LT side.
I understand that a screened wire is used to prevent radiation of
electromagnetic interference from the ignition circuit; as the LT
circuit is opened and closed each time a spark is required at a plug,
the resulting transients can cause radiation even though the voltage may
not be as high as on the HT (spark plug) side.
Brian Davies' reply to my posting, and other offline communications,
indicate that the voltages appearing on the inner of the Rotax "P-lead"
are quite low and so may not have much potential (pun intended) to
generate interference as a traditional magneto installation. But the
official Rotax electrical installation diagram (see attached) calls for
screened wires (and even for the switch cases to be screened) so I see
no reason to invite possible interference by ignoring that advice!
Thanks for all the responses on this topic - I'm now happy to use
standard aircraft-grade screened cable for the ignition kill switch
connexions as there is no EHT voltage involved.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
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Subject: | RE: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 |
I am working with Bud on my cooling problem and have his cooling flap installed
- think this is the ticket along with the oil thermostat - which I haven't installed
yet. I have been experimenting with various tape combinations - my results
are tentative and require some more careful data gathering.
It appears that the oil temp is not much influenced by the amount of tape covering
the radiator, and is somewhat affected by the outside temperature. In my plane,
the cooling is too good and the plane runs too cool. This is an engine efficiency
problem, but more importantly in the north, a heater problem. The amount
of tape on the oil radiator doesn't seem to affect the heater output. (Duh,
it is lower than the water radiator and much lower than the heater intake.)
Higher oil temperatures do not seem to affect the water temperatures, at least
in the range I have experimented with.
The water temperature is greatly affected by the amount of tape covering the water
radiator. At the margin a small change in tape will greatly affect the CHT.
For example, going from covering 1/2 the radiator to 3/4 of the radiator made
the CHT climb from 170 to 270 and resulted in boiling over the radiator (lost
about a cup.) When in cruise in this config (1/2 tape to 3/4 tape) the temps
went from 170 to 180 or so. The heater output was better than when running at
160 with no tape. The high sensitivity in the temps due to the changes in airflow
at the margin suggests that a permanent (non-cockpit controllable blocking
of the radiator) is not a good idea.
I have put a little sheet metal box around the top right rear of the water radiator
and that is doing a better job of directing the air. It is however, not yet
sufficient, particularly for she that must be obeyed. I think Bud's idea is
the way to go with a flap, but we put on a wimpy cable (which also doesn't hold
open except with a vise grip)and the flap may be too weak - the result being
when I pull the flap shut the flap doesn't close well - resulting in little
no decrease in airflow - what may be happening is that the air flow is just speeding
up and I see no different in the CHT with the flap closed or open.
On my to do list:
Need to move coolant temp to show on EIS - presently I don't display water temp
on the EIS or HX - only shows when I get a warning.
I need better data. On the day I tested I either had strange inversion with OAT
at altitude higher than on ground, or engine temp affected OAT sensor in the
carb box.
I may have to seal up the flap better with cowling rubber to cut down the air flow.
I must repeat to myself it is called an experimental aircraft for a reason.
Gary Leinberger
A237
N388SG
gleinberger@millersville.edu
Lancaster, Pa.
USA
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
Remi,
Pretty darned awesome!
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Dec 3, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner@orange.fr> wrote:
Hi Max,
The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre
Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border.
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg
Message 26
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Subject: | Re: RE: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 |
peanut gallery comment: if one goal is use the rad/oil cooler outputs for
cabin heat, would it not be better to put the flap on the outlet (instead
of the inlet)? this way the slower (and thus hotter)
behind-the-radiator-air would be forced into the cabin heat duct. There
would also be higher pressure on the heater duct over the inlet-size
reduction method.
no? (I was also planning on using radiator heat some day.... when i get my
parts into formation)
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Gary Leinberger <
Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu> wrote:
> Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I am working with Bud on my cooling problem and have his cooling flap
> installed - think this is the ticket along with the oil thermostat - which
> I haven't installed yet. I have been experimenting with various tape
> combinations - my results are tentative and require some more careful data
> gathering.
>
> It appears that the oil temp is not much influenced by the amount of tape
> covering the radiator, and is somewhat affected by the outside temperature.
> In my plane, the cooling is too good and the plane runs too cool. This is
> an engine efficiency problem, but more importantly in the north, a heater
> problem. The amount of tape on the oil radiator doesn't seem to affect the
> heater output. (Duh, it is lower than the water radiator and much lower
> than the heater intake.) Higher oil temperatures do not seem to affect the
> water temperatures, at least in the range I have experimented with.
>
> The water temperature is greatly affected by the amount of tape covering
> the water radiator. At the margin a small change in tape will greatly
> affect the CHT. For example, going from covering 1/2 the radiator to 3/4 of
> the radiator made the CHT climb from 170 to 270 and resulted in boiling
> over the radiator (lost about a cup.) When in cruise in this config (1/2
> tape to 3/4 tape) the temps went from 170 to 180 or so. The heater output
> was better than when running at 160 with no tape. The high sensitivity in
> the temps due to the changes in airflow at the margin suggests that a
> permanent (non-cockpit controllable blocking of the radiator) is not a good
> idea.
>
> I have put a little sheet metal box around the top right rear of the water
> radiator and that is doing a better job of directing the air. It is
> however, not yet sufficient, particularly for she that must be obeyed. I
> think Bud's idea is the way to go with a flap, but we put on a wimpy cable
> (which also doesn't hold open except with a vise grip)and the flap may be
> too weak - the result being when I pull the flap shut the flap doesn't
> close well - resulting in little no decrease in airflow - what may be
> happening is that the air flow is just speeding up and I see no different
> in the CHT with the flap closed or open.
>
> On my to do list:
>
> Need to move coolant temp to show on EIS - presently I don't display water
> temp on the EIS or HX - only shows when I get a warning.
>
> I need better data. On the day I tested I either had strange inversion
> with OAT at altitude higher than on ground, or engine temp affected OAT
> sensor in the carb box.
>
> I may have to seal up the flap better with cowling rubber to cut down the
> air flow.
>
> I must repeat to myself it is called an experimental aircraft for a reason.
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> N388SG
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
> Lancaster, Pa.
> USA
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
Sickening, down right sickening! I jest, Remi. It's absolutely
gorgeous. I'm jealous...
Jeff - Baby Blue
On 12/3/2012 1:17 PM, Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Remi,
>
> Pretty darned awesome!
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger@mac.com
>
> On Dec 3, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner@orange.fr> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Max,
> The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the
Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border.
> Remi
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg
>
>
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Subject: | Fw: Plafond de mon Europa |
DQpIaSBhbGwNCg0KVGhlIGxhc3QgMTUgb2Ygbm92ZW1iZXIsICh0aGUgbGFzdCBiZWF1dGlmdWwg
ZGF5IGhlcmUpIEkgY2xpbWIgdG8gdGhlIE1vbnQgQmxhbmMsIGFuZCBhZnRlciBJIENsaW1iIHRv
IDE3MDAwIGZlZXRzIG1heGltdW0gY2VpbGluZyBwb3NzaWJsZSB0aGlzIGRheSB3aXRob3V0IG94
eWdlbg0KT24gdGhlIG1pZGRsZSBsZWZ0IG9mIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgcGljdHVyZSB0aGVyZSBpcyB0
aGUgIkNlcnZpbiINCkdvb2QgZXZlbmluZw0KDQpNaWNoZWwgQVVWUkFZW21hdTExXSAgRi1QRkdU
IEJ1aWxkZXIgMTQ1LTU1MCBob3VycyANClttYXUxMV0gICA
Message 29
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
On 12/03/2012 07:53 PM, Rowland Carson wrote:
> installation. But the official Rotax electrical installation diagram
> (see attached) calls for screened wires (and even for the switch
> cases to be screened) so I see no reason to invite possible
> interference by ignoring that advice!
The official Rotax electrical installation diagram assumes that you
don't have a ground connection at the switch end of your setup.
Make sure you meet that assumption, or very unpleasant things can
happen. This means that you have to double check that no ground wire,
metal bracket, or whatever is attached to the ignition switch in any way.
Also, I still feel that the risk of accidentially shorting the ignition
wire to ground (with engine stoppage as a result) is higher in a
screened wire than in an unscreened wire. Sometimes aircraft
manufacturers follow a standard approach without considering other
options, options that might be better in that specific situation.
The screened ignition wire really is a Lycosaurus thing.
Anyway, a sensible compromise might be to use the screened wire, but to
keep one of the ends of the screen disconnected, and to run a separate
ground cable to the ignition switch. This to avoid any possibility of
running ground currents through the screen, which might melt the core
and screen together, leading to engine stoppage.
If I would ever get corrosion on my battery or alternator ground
connection, I would prefer a failure of my electrical system but with
the engine still running, than the ignition screen taking over the
ground connection for a short while before melting everything together,
and giving me an electrical failure PLUS an engine stoppage.
Frans
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
On 3 Dec 2012, at 20:33, Frans Veldman wrote:
> The official Rotax electrical installation diagram assumes that you
> don't have a ground connection at the switch end of your setup.
> Make sure you meet that assumption, or very unpleasant things can
> happen. This means that you have to double check that no ground wire,
> metal bracket, or whatever is attached to the ignition switch in any way.
Frans - thanks for your reply.
I don't want to keep flogging a dead horse as I think I have a satisfactory answer
to my original question.
But it seems the diagram I attached to my earlier posting did not make it to the
list (for some unknown reason I didn't get an echo of the message myself so
can't be sure), and it clearly showed earth connexions to the 2 wire screens and
the 2 switch cases as well as to the 2 normally-open poles of the A & B switches.
So, I have some difficulty understanding why you say that Rotax assumes
no earth at the switch end of the "p-leads".
The basic electrical circuit diagram in chapter 25 of the Europa builder manual,
although slightly different in detail from the one in the Rotax manual, also
calls for the screens on the magneto wires to be earthed at both ends.
In Bob Nuckolls' widely-respected AeroElectric Connexion, his wiring diagrams show
the leads to the mags shielded and grounded at the switch end.
> If I would ever get corrosion on my battery or alternator ground
> connection, I would prefer a failure of my electrical system but with
> the engine still running, than the ignition screen taking over the
> ground connection for a short while before melting everything together,
> and giving me an electrical failure PLUS an engine stoppage.
I understand your concern - IF the normal earth should fail. I plan to use a B&C
common earth system which has on each side of the firewall a forest of male
blade connectors soldered to a brass plate. A brass bolt about 8mm diameter passes
through the firewall to connect the 2 plates, and provide an anchorage for
a ring termination on a 10AWG wire from the battery. I consider the physical
integrity of that arrangement, and my planned maintenance schedule for it, good
enough not to cause me any sleepless nights.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
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Subject: | Re: Mountain wave flying |
Remi / Michel
You blokes are just not being fair to we Australians who live in the tropics. We
can't even dream about scenery like that!
I have limited glider experience in wave but enough to understand that special
feeling that only wave can impart.
ENJOY and share more photos with us.
Best regards
Kingsley
Do not archive
Sent from my iPhone
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Subject: | Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads |
On 12/03/2012 11:06 PM, Rowland Carson wrote:
> But it seems the diagram I attached to my earlier posting did not
> make it to the list (for some unknown reason I didn't get an echo of
> the message myself so can't be sure), and it clearly showed earth
> connexions to the 2 wire screens and the 2 switch cases as well as to
> the 2 normally-open poles of the A & B switches.
Yes, but it is separate from any other ground connection in the
instrument panel... That means, if you have a ground bus bar in your
instrument panel, you should take care that it doesn't somehow connect
to the screen as well.
This would for instance happen when you have a metal facias on your
panel. Your ignition-switch touches it, and some other switch from,
let's say your landing light, touches it as well. This other switch has
a ground connection to your ground bus. Without realizing it you have
just created a ground loop.
Now suppose something happens to your landing light ground connection.
The electrons now find a path via the switch case to the metal facias,
to your ignition switch, and then via the ignition screen, to ground.
Your landing light will still work, so you won't notice that something
isn't as it should be. Maybe you will only detect a funny smell, when
the 3 amps of your landing light travel via the facias and screen of
your ignition cable, a cable not designed to run the 3 amps via the screen.
Ok, you make good connections you say, your ground cables won't fail. I
take that for granted. But here is another problem, and that is
electrical resistance. Your perfect ground cable has still resistance.
And when your starter cranks it will pull a few hundred amps through the
cable, and due to the resistance some electrons find an easier route via
the screen of your ignition cable. Repeat this a dozen times, and for
some "unknown reason" suddenly your ignition cable fails.
Some day you have a short cut somewhere in your electrical system. No
worries, you have a circuit breaker. But just at the instant between the
short cut occurence and the opening of the circuit breaker, you have an
amp spike on your system, possibly a few hundred amps. It doesn't cause
a fire because it only lasts a microsecond, but at the moment your
ground bus is overloaded some electrons will choose the screen as an
easier route. The amp spike on the screen causes an induction in the
core wire, and that core wire is attached to your precious ignition
coil... Just cross your fingers and hope it doesn't do anything bad.
I can give you many more examples. The bottomline is: Ground Loops Are
Bad (Pun intended). Always make sure there is only ONE way to ground.
This screen of the ignition wire makes your system vulnerable to ground
loops, hard to trouble shoot because you think "ground is ground" and
undetectable for simple measurements because you can't measure which
path the electrons have taken.
A much safer way is to connect the ignition switch to your ground bus in
the instrument panel, and not connect it to the screen. The result is
exactly the same, but the dangerous ground loop can never develop.
> I understand your concern - IF the normal earth should fail.
Not only when it fails, but also when it has resistance... and it has.
Of course it is your airplane, but think about it for a moment, why you
should prefer an error-prone solution over a safer solution without
sacrificing anything in the process.
> I plan
> to use a B&C common earth system which has on each side of the
> firewall a forest of male blade connectors soldered to a brass plate.
> A brass bolt about 8mm diameter passes through the firewall to
> connect the 2 plates, and provide an anchorage for a ring termination
> on a 10AWG wire from the battery.
When you are done installing this, switch on all appliances in your
airplane, and take a multi-meter and measure the voltage drop from your
battery to the ground bus in the cockpit. You will be surprised!
Frans
Message 33
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Subject: | Re: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa |
Beautiful pictures! I hope you did have oxygen (dangerous otherwise).
What was the outside temperature? Have you had any effects on the fiberglas
s? Cracking on the paint finish?
Cheers and more blue skies,
Pete
On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:07 PM, mau11 <mau11@free.fr> wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> The last 15 of november, (the last beautiful day here) I climb to the Mont
Blanc, and after I Climb to 17000 feets maximum ceiling possible this day w
ithout oxygen
> On the middle left of the second picture there is the "Cervin"
> Good evening
>
> Michel AUVRAY[mau11] F-PFGT Builder 145-550 hours
> [mau11]
> <Mont Blanc1 15-11-2012.jpg>
> <Mont Blanc2 15-11-2012.jpg>
Message 34
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Subject: | Re: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa |
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