---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/03/12: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:43 AM - Antenna installations (fireflier) 2. 02:22 AM - Re: Antenna installations (houlihan) 3. 02:53 AM - what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson) 4. 03:58 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Christoph Both) 5. 05:18 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson) 6. 05:37 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Christoph Both) 7. 06:50 AM - Mountain wave flying (Remi Guerner) 8. 07:09 AM - Re: Mountain wave flying (Max Cointe) 9. 07:28 AM - Re: Antenna installations (Frans Veldman) 10. 07:34 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman) 11. 07:40 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman) 12. 07:58 AM - Re: Mountain wave flying (Remi Guerner) 13. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Trevpond@aol.com) 14. 08:33 AM - Re: Antenna installations (skanderup) 15. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Max Cointe) 16. 08:39 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Brian Davies) 17. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: Antenna installations (Frans Veldman) 18. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Frans Veldman) 19. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Antenna installations (houlihan) 20. 09:52 AM - Re: Mountain wave flying (Remi Guerner) 21. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Antenna installations (Frans Veldman) 22. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 23. 10:53 AM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson) 24. 11:00 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 (Gary Leinberger) 25. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Robert Borger) 26. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 (Peter Zutrauen) 27. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Jeff B) 28. 12:09 PM - Fw: Plafond de mon Europa (mau11) 29. 12:34 PM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman) 30. 02:07 PM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Rowland Carson) 31. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Mountain wave flying (Kingsley Hurst) 32. 03:03 PM - Re: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads (Frans Veldman) 33. 03:34 PM - Re: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa (Pete) 34. 10:11 PM - Re: Re: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa (mau11) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:26 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Antenna installations From: "fireflier" Hello everyone I'm now at the stage of thinking about the installation of antenna's for my comm & transponder. The reason for my post is to seek the opinion of fellow forum members on the best location to install the antenna's and also to ask what antenna's people have used? I have been looking at the following nav/comm antenna http://shop.airworlduk.com/high-gain-nav--com-antenna-5t-302140-1080-p.asp Has anyone got any experience of this antenna? I would be interested to hear your thoughts and reviews of it. I look forward to receiving your thoughts & comments with regards to correct antenna selection, placement within aircraft etc. Many thanks for your time reading my post. Kind regards Donald. -------- Fireflier Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389723#389723 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Antenna installations From: houlihan Re aerials for Comms etc. What is wrong with the aerial described in the build manual ? The link you sent shows a di pole aerial and claims its Hi gain ! ! how hi-gain ? It is not stated but is probably a 1/2 wave dipole exactly like the one described in the manual. It also states that it can be used within the wingtip of a metal aircraft " They will work in metal airframes when a plastic or fiberglass wing tip or similar plastic component is available to provide the mounting structure" that implies that the aerial is mounted horizontally ( unless the wing is several feet thick ) and so will not match the comms VHF system which is vertically polarised. I recently had a problem with my standard fin closeout mounted aerial but that was caused by a poor intermittent contact in the BNC connecter . When it was connected correctly it seemed to be delivering perfectly adequate performance at a much lower price. I am sure that experts will have their views on this but my reading of the article raises real technical questions regarding the claims made in it. Tim H G-BZTH p.s. a length of RG58 coax with the last 1/2 meter or so stripped out and the inner core and outer screen separated and mounted vertically one up and one down will act as a very usable aerial On 3 December 2012 09:42, fireflier wrote: > > Hello everyone > > I'm now at the stage of thinking about the installation of antenna's for > my comm & transponder. The reason for my post is to seek the opinion of > fellow forum members on the best location to install the antenna's and also > to ask what antenna's people have used? > > I have been looking at the following nav/comm antenna > > http://shop.airworlduk.com/high-gain-nav--com-antenna-5t-302140-1080-p.asp > > Has anyone got any experience of this antenna? I would be interested to > hear your thoughts and reviews of it. > > I look forward to receiving your thoughts & comments with regards to > correct antenna selection, placement within aircraft etc. > > Many thanks for your time reading my post. > > Kind regards > Donald. > > -------- > Fireflier > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389723#389723 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:05 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads My Rotax 912S did not come with leads for killing the mags (what are normally called p-leads in standard aircraft practice). I almost bought some screened cable that was on special offer at the LAA Rally, but couldn't get any assurance from the vendor that it would be suitable for leads to the mag switches - ie sufficiently high voltage rating. Is there any recommendation for a type of cable to use for the leads to the Rotax mag switches? Or can anyone tell me what the voltage rating for mag leads ought to be? in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:15 AM PST US From: Christoph Both Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads Rowland: Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins you need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box. In Canada it was recommended to use a minimum of 18AWG shielded aircraft type wire. My Rotax came with two pins you need to insert into the not yet filled and marked "br" brown section of the Molex Type fastener mounted to each of the ignition modules. You need a good crimping tool to make the connection to the wire and I would use shrink wrap to lessen vibration problems between wire and fastener. Make sure the wire is routed without too much tension and well supported. Rotax specifies that both ends of the shielded wire be grounded and that the wire be routed as much as possible away from other wires, antennas, etc. to minimize interference. I am using a separate through the firewall conduit to allow this. Christoph Both #223 Classic 912S,finalizing CLASSIC engine installation Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada On 12-12-03 6:52 AM, "Rowland Carson" wrote: > > >My Rotax 912S did not come with leads for killing the mags (what are >normally called p-leads in standard aircraft practice). I almost bought >some screened cable that was on special offer at the LAA Rally, but >couldn't get any assurance from the vendor that it would be suitable for >leads to the mag switches - ie sufficiently high voltage rating. > >Is there any recommendation for a type of cable to use for the leads to >the Rotax mag switches? Or can anyone tell me what the voltage rating for >mag leads ought to be? > >in friendship > >Rowland > >| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads From: Rowland Carson On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:57, Christoph Both wrote: > Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins you > need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box Christoph - thanks for your message. I've got the blank pins that came with the engine, and an assortment of crimping tools, one of which I'm sure will be equal to the task. I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will be OK for the high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in ignition circuits. In my youth I was involved in the development of colour TV for UK transmission and so did some poking around in boxes that had 30kV lurking inside. I was impressed by the way such voltages could walk across things that I have previously regarded as insulators. Similarly, (before I switched to driving a diesel car) I've been amused by the capability of car ignition voltages to find a route to earth that did NOT involve the appropriate spark plug. So, I am approaching this question with some respect for the physics involved. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:13 AM PST US From: Christoph Both Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads I am planning to use a small diameter grounding strap conduit to run the shielded 18AWG wires in, similar to the Rotax shielded AC power coming from the engine. This should contain any problems. C On 12-12-03 9:18 AM, "Rowland Carson" wrote: > > >On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:57, Christoph Both wrote: > >> Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins >>you >> need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box > >Christoph - thanks for your message. I've got the blank pins that came >with the engine, and an assortment of crimping tools, one of which I'm >sure will be equal to the task. > >I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will be OK >for the high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in ignition >circuits. In my youth I was involved in the development of colour TV for >UK transmission and so did some poking around in boxes that had 30kV >lurking inside. I was impressed by the way such voltages could walk >across things that I have previously regarded as insulators. Similarly, >(before I switched to driving a diesel car) I've been amused by the >capability of car ignition voltages to find a route to earth that did NOT >involve the appropriate spark plug. So, I am approaching this question >with some respect for the physics involved. > >in friendship > >Rowland > >| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:41 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Mountain wave flying From: "Remi Guerner" Hi all, I had an interesting flight today and cannot resist the pleasure to share the attached pictures with you. I climbed to 11000 ft over the Gap area, french south Alps, to catch a mountain wave, then reduced power to idle and flew almost for free for 10 minutes gaining about 1000 ft . Facing into the wind with 55 kts IAS, my ground speed was 19 kts. Then I turned downwind with full throttle and 5000 RPM and got 194 kts on the GPS. I was impressed by the distance I covered in a few minutes at that speed ! Remi F-PGKL XS Monowheel , 912ULS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389739#389739 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030010a_105.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030009a_115.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030008a_191.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:38 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mountain wave flying Hi Remi, Lucky you! I wish I could have been on the right seat and have a look outside during that flight. Any picture? Max Cointe F-PMLH Europa_TriGear Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours mcointe@free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:20 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Antenna installations On 12/03/2012 10:42 AM, fireflier wrote: > I have been looking at the following nav/comm antenna > > http://shop.airworlduk.com/high-gain-nav--com-antenna-5t-302140-1080-p.asp Humbug. Go for the antenna as proposed in the build manual. That is a half wave dipole, correctly polarized, and there is just nothing that can beat a vertical half wave antenna in an aircraft. No antenna can give you more gain, except when compromising the radiation pattern thus sacrificing some coverage, which might be fine for a stationary antenna, but not for an aircraft. As for connecting multiple devices to one antenna: don't do it. You will create ground loops, difficult to troubleshoot interference, etc. Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:49 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads On 12/03/2012 11:52 AM, Rowland Carson wrote: > My Rotax 912S did not come with leads for killing the mags (what are > normally called p-leads in standard aircraft practice). I almost > bought some screened cable that was on special offer at the LAA > Rally, but couldn't get any assurance from the vendor that it would > be suitable for leads to the mag switches - ie sufficiently high > voltage rating. I recently wrote a private message to someone else about this subject. You may be interested in it: I have not earthed it at all, I even didn't use shielded cable. I think the diagram only shows it that way because it makes a less confusing drawing. The whole point of the diagram is that you need to connect the ignition wire to ground in order to kill the ignition. If you have a ground bus in the cockpit anyway (I'm sure you have), you should use that to connect to the switch, and just run a standard non shielded cable from the ignition to the switch. (Shielding is necessary for cables which carry radio signals or are sensitive for picking up noise, your ignition wire doesn't fit into either category). If your starter switch is already connected somehow to ground, you should NOT connect both ends of the shield! Otherwise the shield of the ignition wire will act as a shortcut for the other ground connection. This might route heavy currents through the shield, it may get hot and melt the insulation between the two layers, stopping the engine! In other words, from the starter switch there may only be ONE path to ground. So, it is either that you connect the starter switch to ground via the ignition shield, or that you connect the starter switch via another path to ground, but not both at the same time. Explaining this goes a long way, trust me on this. I would recommend option 2, to connect the starter switch to some ground bus bar somewhere in the cockpit, and forget the whole shield, or connect only one end of the shield in case you really insist to have the shield. Use plastic ty wraps or some other "soft" way to keep the cable in place. Preferably use some sleeve at the places where you clamp it with the ty wraps, to avoid any stress points, chafing, etc. This is a very important wire, if it connects somehow to ground your engine will stop. Securing it with a metal screw is dangerous, the metal screw may work its way through the cable connecting the shield to the core, and this effectively stops the engine. Just give the starter switch its own ground connection, and run a normal teflon wire in one piece from the engine terminal to the switch, securing that cable at strategic places with ty wraps, making sure it can never chafe even if the engine starts vibrating madly. Remember, earthing it kills the ignition, so if the insulation chafes through and the metal wire inside touches any metal object connected to ground, your engine will stop. If you feel unsure about soldering or routing the cable, or lack the correct tools, seek professional help. This is not a cable to fool with. Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:21 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads On 12/03/2012 02:18 PM, Rowland Carson wrote: > I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will > be OK for the high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in > ignition circuits. We are not talking here about the HT-leads to the spark plugs, but about the ignition kill wire. > In my youth I was involved in the development of > colour TV for UK transmission and so did some poking around in boxes > that had 30kV lurking inside. I was impressed by the way such > voltages could walk across things that I have previously regarded as > insulators. I'm sure you must have been impressed ;-), but the Rotax ignition kill circuit is far from comparable to the 30kV of your colour TV's. It is just low voltage. Frans ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying From: "Remi Guerner" Hi Max, The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:21 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying Hi Remi, What a picture, that's what I call flying - lucky so and so, our strip is like a mud pie! regards Trev G-LINN In a message dated 03/12/2012 15:58:54 GMT Standard Time, air.guerner@orange.fr writes: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" Hi Max, The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre Pon=C3=A7on dam and mountains at the french italian border. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:29 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Antenna installations From: "skanderup" Hi, Now the talk is on antennas, I would like to ask the forum for your guidance on ground plane. I have purchased a nice antenna for my transponder and it requires a ground plane (which a GP aircraft does not provide automatically like a metal plane...) Any good advise on how to make one, materials, sizes etc? Any advise and photos is much appreciated. Regards, Allan Skanderup Nielsen Kit 0622, OY-EEK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389752#389752 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:35 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying Remi, This is what I call a "destination for nice flight"! Don't be surprised if I pop-up next spring or autumn... Max Cointe F-PMLH Europa_TriGear Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours mcointe@free.fr -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Remi Guerner Envoy: lundi 3 dcembre 2012 16:58 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying --> Hi Max, The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:50 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads Hi Rowland, I used standard aircraft grade screened cable and have not had any problems. As the ignition modules are not really magnetos I suspect we are simply controlling a transistor. Regards Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 03 December 2012 13:18 Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads --> On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:57, Christoph Both wrote: > Best to call your Rotax Dealer to see if they have the two small pins > you need to insert into the Molex Type ignition module connector box Christoph - thanks for your message. I've got the blank pins that came with the engine, and an assortment of crimping tools, one of which I'm sure will be equal to the task. I'm concerned about whether "ordinary" screened aircraft cable will be OK for the high voltages (thousands of volts) that appear in ignition circuits. In my youth I was involved in the development of colour TV for UK transmission and so did some poking around in boxes that had 30kV lurking inside. I was impressed by the way such voltages could walk across things that I have previously regarded as insulators. Similarly, (before I switched to driving a diesel car) I've been amused by the capability of car ignition voltages to find a route to earth that did NOT involve the appropriate spark plug. So, I am approaching this question with some respect for the physics involved. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:29 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Antenna installations On 12/03/2012 05:32 PM, skanderup wrote: > > Hi, > > Now the talk is on antennas, I would like to ask the forum for your guidance on ground plane. > > I have purchased a nice antenna for my transponder and it requires a ground plane (which a GP aircraft does not provide automatically like a metal plane...) I hope you bought the TED antenna as it is the best available and also very affordable. A ground plane should be at least a quarter wave in radius. Quarter wave is the lenght of the antenna rod. A larger ground plane is ok, but has not much additional benefit. In my tri-gear I cut out the monowheel opening and use an aluminium plate to cover it. I mounted the antenna on the underside of the metal plate, and it works very well. As these radio waves are going through the glass fuselage, you could mount the antenna somewhere inside as well, and use any metal plate available. It is advisable to mount the antenna "upside down", that is, the metal rod sticking down. Beware of "shadows" like from the engine, so keep it as low as possible. Frans ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:55 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying On 12/03/2012 04:57 PM, Remi Guerner wrote: > > Hi Max, > The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border. I recognize the area very well as the parents of my wife live in the valley on the right, have been there numerous times. Although my destination field is usually LFQB and I'm actually flying IN that valley rather than above. Regarding the mountain waves, I guess the mistral is active? I tried flying there once with that going on, but I was in for a very wild ride while still below the mountain tops. Also I remember having been flying there once with a C172, climbing with 1000 ft/minute with the throttle closed, which was actually quite scary as I was already at 12000 ft, no oxygen, and no sign of easing down on the unvoluntary climb, until I escaped in the right direction. Anyway, I have never been there in winter time, too far from home in unpredictable weather with too short daylime to make it there in one day. It looks beautiful with all that snow! Is LFNA actually open in the winter? Frans ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Antenna installations From: houlihan I agree entirely with Frans reply, I was told during a conversation with the Trigg development engineers some time ago not to use a perfectly circular ground plane at the calculated diameter as it could possibly resonate and interfere with the signal in some way , the reasoning as to why was well above my pay grade . It is very easy to avoid this phenomena by making the ground plane slightly irregular. I use this as a reason for all my little add on bits being slightly irregular. :<) Tim On 3 December 2012 16:53, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 12/03/2012 05:32 PM, skanderup wrote: > allan_skanderup@hotmail.com> > > > > Hi, > > > > Now the talk is on antennas, I would like to ask the forum for your > guidance on ground plane. > > > > I have purchased a nice antenna for my transponder and it requires a > ground plane (which a GP aircraft does not provide automatically like a > metal plane...) > > I hope you bought the TED antenna as it is the best available and also > very affordable. > A ground plane should be at least a quarter wave in radius. Quarter wave > is the lenght of the antenna rod. A larger ground plane is ok, but has > not much additional benefit. > > In my tri-gear I cut out the monowheel opening and use an aluminium > plate to cover it. I mounted the antenna on the underside of the metal > plate, and it works very well. > > As these radio waves are going through the glass fuselage, you could > mount the antenna somewhere inside as well, and use any metal plate > available. It is advisable to mount the antenna "upside down", that is, > the metal rod sticking down. Beware of "shadows" like from the engine, > so keep it as low as possible. > > Frans > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:58 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying From: "Remi Guerner" Hi Frans, It was very windy at altitude of course but the flight was mostly smooth. Calm winds on the ground. Yes Gap Tallard is open all year round as is Barcelonnette (I landed there last Saturday). After a snow fall, a closure is likely for a few days as they can come to plow the runway only after ALL roads in the area have been cleaned up. I hope to see you there one day. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389763#389763 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:12 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Antenna installations On 12/03/2012 06:42 PM, houlihan wrote: > I agree entirely with Frans reply, > I was told during a conversation with the Trigg development engineers > some time ago not to use a perfectly circular ground plane at the > calculated diameter as it could possibly resonate and interfere with the > signal in some way , the reasoning as to why was well above my pay grade . > > It is very easy to avoid this phenomena by making the ground plane > slightly irregular. Reason of this is that if it is exactly circular, it resonates at exactly one frequency, i.e. it is very narrow banded. The transmitting and receiving of the transponders is on different frequencies, so you need to avoid extremely narrow banded antenna's. Keep in mind that resonance not only happens at one quarter wavelength, but also at multiplies and certain fractions of the wavelength. If you use a true circular ground plane chances are you are hitting a resonant somewhere. If it is not exactly 1/4th maybe it happens to be 5/16th? If you make the ground plane a little bit irregular, each frequency is able to find a matching resonant size somewhere on this shape, so the sum of the total lengths possible results in a much wider band width. Electromagnetic resonance is quite similar to accoustic resonance, I guess if you try to build a quitar with a circular body it would be difficult to tune and some notes would play much louder than others, hence the irregular shape of guitars, which function to make its frequency response (resonance) much wider than that of a circular shape. So, put the antenna not exactly in the middle if you use a circular ground plane, or better yet, use a rectangular ground plane, so the electrons see various distances to the edge of the ground plane. I guess a guitar shaped ground plane would serve your transponder also very well. ;-) Frans ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:34 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying What's even more frustrating is the sight of-beautiful- lenticulars at 10 or 15 000 feet well inside controlled air space. I have flown a Europa C lassic in wave (with Roger Mills)=0Awe were scooting along at 110kts thrott le closed and going up over Derbyshire, where I live. Wonderful when you hi t the wave how the aeroplane smiles to itself as the=0Aair goes silky smoot h. The wind noise is totally different.=0AGraham=0A=0A_____________________ ___________=0A From: "Trevpond@aol.com" =0ATo: europa-lis t@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 3 December 2012, 16:08=0ASubject: Re: Euro pa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying=0A =0A=0AHi Remi,=0A-=0AWhat a picture, that's what I call flying - lucky so and so, our strip is =0Alike a mud pi e!=0A-=0Aregards=0A-=0ATrev G-LINN=0A-=0AIn a message dated 03/12/201 2 15:58:54 GMT Standard Time, =0Aair.guerner@orange.fr writes:=0A--> Europ a-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" =0A>=0A>Hi Max,=0A>The attached picture taken =0A this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre Pon=C3=A7on dam and =0A mountains at the french ital ian border.=0A>Remi=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this =0A topic online =0A her e:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Attachments: =0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc0 =========================0A ==================== ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:52 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads On 3 Dec 2012, at 15:34, Frans Veldman wrote: > I have not earthed it at all, I even didn't use shielded cable. I think > the diagram only shows it that way because it makes a less confusing > drawing. The whole point of the diagram is that you need to connect the > ignition wire to ground in order to kill the ignition Frans - thanks for your message. Yes, I appreciate that the purpose of the "P-lead" is to allow the ignition to be short-circuited to earth and so prevent sparks at the plugs - much the same as that bit of bent metal you sometimes see on lawnmower engines (which also tend to have magneto ignition) that shorts the top of the spark plug to the case. Of course that is working on the HT side of the circuit and I understand now that "P-leads" are usually connected to the LT side. I understand that a screened wire is used to prevent radiation of electromagnetic interference from the ignition circuit; as the LT circuit is opened and closed each time a spark is required at a plug, the resulting transients can cause radiation even though the voltage may not be as high as on the HT (spark plug) side. Brian Davies' reply to my posting, and other offline communications, indicate that the voltages appearing on the inner of the Rotax "P-lead" are quite low and so may not have much potential (pun intended) to generate interference as a traditional magneto installation. But the official Rotax electrical installation diagram (see attached) calls for screened wires (and even for the switch cases to be screened) so I see no reason to invite possible interference by ignoring that advice! Thanks for all the responses on this topic - I'm now happy to use standard aircraft-grade screened cable for the ignition kill switch connexions as there is no EHT voltage involved. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:24 AM PST US From: Gary Leinberger Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 I am working with Bud on my cooling problem and have his cooling flap installed - think this is the ticket along with the oil thermostat - which I haven't installed yet. I have been experimenting with various tape combinations - my results are tentative and require some more careful data gathering. It appears that the oil temp is not much influenced by the amount of tape covering the radiator, and is somewhat affected by the outside temperature. In my plane, the cooling is too good and the plane runs too cool. This is an engine efficiency problem, but more importantly in the north, a heater problem. The amount of tape on the oil radiator doesn't seem to affect the heater output. (Duh, it is lower than the water radiator and much lower than the heater intake.) Higher oil temperatures do not seem to affect the water temperatures, at least in the range I have experimented with. The water temperature is greatly affected by the amount of tape covering the water radiator. At the margin a small change in tape will greatly affect the CHT. For example, going from covering 1/2 the radiator to 3/4 of the radiator made the CHT climb from 170 to 270 and resulted in boiling over the radiator (lost about a cup.) When in cruise in this config (1/2 tape to 3/4 tape) the temps went from 170 to 180 or so. The heater output was better than when running at 160 with no tape. The high sensitivity in the temps due to the changes in airflow at the margin suggests that a permanent (non-cockpit controllable blocking of the radiator) is not a good idea. I have put a little sheet metal box around the top right rear of the water radiator and that is doing a better job of directing the air. It is however, not yet sufficient, particularly for she that must be obeyed. I think Bud's idea is the way to go with a flap, but we put on a wimpy cable (which also doesn't hold open except with a vise grip)and the flap may be too weak - the result being when I pull the flap shut the flap doesn't close well - resulting in little no decrease in airflow - what may be happening is that the air flow is just speeding up and I see no different in the CHT with the flap closed or open. On my to do list: Need to move coolant temp to show on EIS - presently I don't display water temp on the EIS or HX - only shows when I get a warning. I need better data. On the day I tested I either had strange inversion with OAT at altitude higher than on ground, or engine temp affected OAT sensor in the carb box. I may have to seal up the flap better with cowling rubber to cut down the air flow. I must repeat to myself it is called an experimental aircraft for a reason. Gary Leinberger A237 N388SG gleinberger@millersville.edu Lancaster, Pa. USA ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying From: Robert Borger Remi, Pretty darned awesome! Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Dec 3, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Remi Guerner wrote: Hi Max, The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:12 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/02/12 peanut gallery comment: if one goal is use the rad/oil cooler outputs for cabin heat, would it not be better to put the flap on the outlet (instead of the inlet)? this way the slower (and thus hotter) behind-the-radiator-air would be forced into the cabin heat duct. There would also be higher pressure on the heater duct over the inlet-size reduction method. no? (I was also planning on using radiator heat some day.... when i get my parts into formation) Cheers, Pete A239 On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Gary Leinberger < Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu> wrote: > Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu> > > I am working with Bud on my cooling problem and have his cooling flap > installed - think this is the ticket along with the oil thermostat - which > I haven't installed yet. I have been experimenting with various tape > combinations - my results are tentative and require some more careful data > gathering. > > It appears that the oil temp is not much influenced by the amount of tape > covering the radiator, and is somewhat affected by the outside temperature. > In my plane, the cooling is too good and the plane runs too cool. This is > an engine efficiency problem, but more importantly in the north, a heater > problem. The amount of tape on the oil radiator doesn't seem to affect the > heater output. (Duh, it is lower than the water radiator and much lower > than the heater intake.) Higher oil temperatures do not seem to affect the > water temperatures, at least in the range I have experimented with. > > The water temperature is greatly affected by the amount of tape covering > the water radiator. At the margin a small change in tape will greatly > affect the CHT. For example, going from covering 1/2 the radiator to 3/4 of > the radiator made the CHT climb from 170 to 270 and resulted in boiling > over the radiator (lost about a cup.) When in cruise in this config (1/2 > tape to 3/4 tape) the temps went from 170 to 180 or so. The heater output > was better than when running at 160 with no tape. The high sensitivity in > the temps due to the changes in airflow at the margin suggests that a > permanent (non-cockpit controllable blocking of the radiator) is not a good > idea. > > I have put a little sheet metal box around the top right rear of the water > radiator and that is doing a better job of directing the air. It is > however, not yet sufficient, particularly for she that must be obeyed. I > think Bud's idea is the way to go with a flap, but we put on a wimpy cable > (which also doesn't hold open except with a vise grip)and the flap may be > too weak - the result being when I pull the flap shut the flap doesn't > close well - resulting in little no decrease in airflow - what may be > happening is that the air flow is just speeding up and I see no different > in the CHT with the flap closed or open. > > On my to do list: > > Need to move coolant temp to show on EIS - presently I don't display water > temp on the EIS or HX - only shows when I get a warning. > > I need better data. On the day I tested I either had strange inversion > with OAT at altitude higher than on ground, or engine temp affected OAT > sensor in the carb box. > > I may have to seal up the flap better with cowling rubber to cut down the > air flow. > > I must repeat to myself it is called an experimental aircraft for a reason. > > > Gary Leinberger > A237 > N388SG > gleinberger@millersville.edu > Lancaster, Pa. > USA > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:05 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying Sickening, down right sickening! I jest, Remi. It's absolutely gorgeous. I'm jealous... Jeff - Baby Blue On 12/3/2012 1:17 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > > Remi, > > Pretty darned awesome! > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com > > On Dec 3, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Remi Guerner wrote: > > > Hi Max, > The attached picture taken this morning from 10000 ft looking east shows the Serre Ponon dam and mountains at the french italian border. > Remi > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389749#389749 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/pc030001c_167.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:14 PM PST US From: mau11 Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa DQpIaSBhbGwNCg0KVGhlIGxhc3QgMTUgb2Ygbm92ZW1iZXIsICh0aGUgbGFzdCBiZWF1dGlmdWwg ZGF5IGhlcmUpIEkgY2xpbWIgdG8gdGhlIE1vbnQgQmxhbmMsIGFuZCBhZnRlciBJIENsaW1iIHRv IDE3MDAwIGZlZXRzIG1heGltdW0gY2VpbGluZyBwb3NzaWJsZSB0aGlzIGRheSB3aXRob3V0IG94 eWdlbg0KT24gdGhlIG1pZGRsZSBsZWZ0IG9mIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgcGljdHVyZSB0aGVyZSBpcyB0 aGUgIkNlcnZpbiINCkdvb2QgZXZlbmluZw0KDQpNaWNoZWwgQVVWUkFZW21hdTExXSAgRi1QRkdU IEJ1aWxkZXIgMTQ1LTU1MCBob3VycyANClttYXUxMV0gICA ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:14 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads On 12/03/2012 07:53 PM, Rowland Carson wrote: > installation. But the official Rotax electrical installation diagram > (see attached) calls for screened wires (and even for the switch > cases to be screened) so I see no reason to invite possible > interference by ignoring that advice! The official Rotax electrical installation diagram assumes that you don't have a ground connection at the switch end of your setup. Make sure you meet that assumption, or very unpleasant things can happen. This means that you have to double check that no ground wire, metal bracket, or whatever is attached to the ignition switch in any way. Also, I still feel that the risk of accidentially shorting the ignition wire to ground (with engine stoppage as a result) is higher in a screened wire than in an unscreened wire. Sometimes aircraft manufacturers follow a standard approach without considering other options, options that might be better in that specific situation. The screened ignition wire really is a Lycosaurus thing. Anyway, a sensible compromise might be to use the screened wire, but to keep one of the ends of the screen disconnected, and to run a separate ground cable to the ignition switch. This to avoid any possibility of running ground currents through the screen, which might melt the core and screen together, leading to engine stoppage. If I would ever get corrosion on my battery or alternator ground connection, I would prefer a failure of my electrical system but with the engine still running, than the ignition screen taking over the ground connection for a short while before melting everything together, and giving me an electrical failure PLUS an engine stoppage. Frans ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads From: Rowland Carson On 3 Dec 2012, at 20:33, Frans Veldman wrote: > The official Rotax electrical installation diagram assumes that you > don't have a ground connection at the switch end of your setup. > Make sure you meet that assumption, or very unpleasant things can > happen. This means that you have to double check that no ground wire, > metal bracket, or whatever is attached to the ignition switch in any way. Frans - thanks for your reply. I don't want to keep flogging a dead horse as I think I have a satisfactory answer to my original question. But it seems the diagram I attached to my earlier posting did not make it to the list (for some unknown reason I didn't get an echo of the message myself so can't be sure), and it clearly showed earth connexions to the 2 wire screens and the 2 switch cases as well as to the 2 normally-open poles of the A & B switches. So, I have some difficulty understanding why you say that Rotax assumes no earth at the switch end of the "p-leads". The basic electrical circuit diagram in chapter 25 of the Europa builder manual, although slightly different in detail from the one in the Rotax manual, also calls for the screens on the magneto wires to be earthed at both ends. In Bob Nuckolls' widely-respected AeroElectric Connexion, his wiring diagrams show the leads to the mags shielded and grounded at the switch end. > If I would ever get corrosion on my battery or alternator ground > connection, I would prefer a failure of my electrical system but with > the engine still running, than the ignition screen taking over the > ground connection for a short while before melting everything together, > and giving me an electrical failure PLUS an engine stoppage. I understand your concern - IF the normal earth should fail. I plan to use a B&C common earth system which has on each side of the firewall a forest of male blade connectors soldered to a brass plate. A brass bolt about 8mm diameter passes through the firewall to connect the 2 plates, and provide an anchorage for a ring termination on a 10AWG wire from the battery. I consider the physical integrity of that arrangement, and my planned maintenance schedule for it, good enough not to cause me any sleepless nights. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mountain wave flying From: Kingsley Hurst Remi / Michel You blokes are just not being fair to we Australians who live in the tropics. We can't even dream about scenery like that! I have limited glider experience in wave but enough to understand that special feeling that only wave can impart. ENJOY and share more photos with us. Best regards Kingsley Do not archive Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:07 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: what wire/cable to use for rotax magneto p-leads On 12/03/2012 11:06 PM, Rowland Carson wrote: > But it seems the diagram I attached to my earlier posting did not > make it to the list (for some unknown reason I didn't get an echo of > the message myself so can't be sure), and it clearly showed earth > connexions to the 2 wire screens and the 2 switch cases as well as to > the 2 normally-open poles of the A & B switches. Yes, but it is separate from any other ground connection in the instrument panel... That means, if you have a ground bus bar in your instrument panel, you should take care that it doesn't somehow connect to the screen as well. This would for instance happen when you have a metal facias on your panel. Your ignition-switch touches it, and some other switch from, let's say your landing light, touches it as well. This other switch has a ground connection to your ground bus. Without realizing it you have just created a ground loop. Now suppose something happens to your landing light ground connection. The electrons now find a path via the switch case to the metal facias, to your ignition switch, and then via the ignition screen, to ground. Your landing light will still work, so you won't notice that something isn't as it should be. Maybe you will only detect a funny smell, when the 3 amps of your landing light travel via the facias and screen of your ignition cable, a cable not designed to run the 3 amps via the screen. Ok, you make good connections you say, your ground cables won't fail. I take that for granted. But here is another problem, and that is electrical resistance. Your perfect ground cable has still resistance. And when your starter cranks it will pull a few hundred amps through the cable, and due to the resistance some electrons find an easier route via the screen of your ignition cable. Repeat this a dozen times, and for some "unknown reason" suddenly your ignition cable fails. Some day you have a short cut somewhere in your electrical system. No worries, you have a circuit breaker. But just at the instant between the short cut occurence and the opening of the circuit breaker, you have an amp spike on your system, possibly a few hundred amps. It doesn't cause a fire because it only lasts a microsecond, but at the moment your ground bus is overloaded some electrons will choose the screen as an easier route. The amp spike on the screen causes an induction in the core wire, and that core wire is attached to your precious ignition coil... Just cross your fingers and hope it doesn't do anything bad. I can give you many more examples. The bottomline is: Ground Loops Are Bad (Pun intended). Always make sure there is only ONE way to ground. This screen of the ignition wire makes your system vulnerable to ground loops, hard to trouble shoot because you think "ground is ground" and undetectable for simple measurements because you can't measure which path the electrons have taken. A much safer way is to connect the ignition switch to your ground bus in the instrument panel, and not connect it to the screen. The result is exactly the same, but the dangerous ground loop can never develop. > I understand your concern - IF the normal earth should fail. Not only when it fails, but also when it has resistance... and it has. Of course it is your airplane, but think about it for a moment, why you should prefer an error-prone solution over a safer solution without sacrificing anything in the process. > I plan > to use a B&C common earth system which has on each side of the > firewall a forest of male blade connectors soldered to a brass plate. > A brass bolt about 8mm diameter passes through the firewall to > connect the 2 plates, and provide an anchorage for a ring termination > on a 10AWG wire from the battery. When you are done installing this, switch on all appliances in your airplane, and take a multi-meter and measure the voltage drop from your battery to the ground bus in the cockpit. You will be surprised! Frans ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa From: Pete Beautiful pictures! I hope you did have oxygen (dangerous otherwise). What was the outside temperature? Have you had any effects on the fiberglas s? Cracking on the paint finish? Cheers and more blue skies, Pete On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:07 PM, mau11 wrote: > > Hi all > > The last 15 of november, (the last beautiful day here) I climb to the Mont Blanc, and after I Climb to 17000 feets maximum ceiling possible this day w ithout oxygen > On the middle left of the second picture there is the "Cervin" > Good evening > > Michel AUVRAY[mau11] F-PFGT Builder 145-550 hours > [mau11] > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:31 PM PST US From: mau11 Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Plafond de mon Europa SGkgUGV0ZSwNCkZvciB0aGlzIGZsaWdodCBJIGhhdmUgbm8gTzIgdGVtcGVyYXR1cmUgaXMgbWlu dXMgMTjCsCBDZWxjaXVzDQoNCkl0IGlzIG5vdCBteSBmaXJzdCBmbHkgdXAgdG8gdGhlIE1vbnQg QmxhbmMgYW5kIHRoZSBhaXJjcmFmdCBoYXZlIG5vIGRhbWFnZXMuDQoNCkdvb2QgZGF5DQpNaWNo ZWwgQVVWUkFZDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpGcm9tOiBQZXRlDQpEYXRlOiAyMDEyLTEyLTA0IDAwOjMz DQpUbzogZXVyb3BhLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0 OiBGdzogUGxhZm9uZCBkZSBtb24gRXVyb3BhDQpCZWF1dGlmdWwgcGljdHVyZXMhICBJIGhvcGUg eW91IGRpZCBoYXZlIG94eWdlbiAoZGFuZ2Vyb3VzIG90aGVyd2lzZSkuDQoNCg0KV2hhdCB3YXMg dGhlIG91dHNpZGUgdGVtcGVyYXR1cmU/ICBIYXZlIHlvdSBoYWQgYW55IGVmZmVjdHMgb24gdGhl IGZpYmVyZ2xhc3M/IENyYWNraW5nIG9uIHRoZSAgcGFpbnQgZmluaXNoPw0KDQoNCkNoZWVycyBh bmQgbW9yZSBibHVlIHNraWVzLA0KUGV0ZQ0KDQpPbiBEZWMgMywgMjAxMiwgYXQgMzowNyBQTSwg bWF1MTEgPG1hdTExQGZyZWUuZnI+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQoNCg0KSGkgYWxsDQoNClRoZSBsYXN0IDE1 IG9mIG5vdmVtYmVyLCAodGhlIGxhc3QgYmVhdXRpZnVsIGRheSBoZXJlKSBJIGNsaW1iIHRvIHRo ZSBNb250IEJsYW5jLCBhbmQgYWZ0ZXIgSSBDbGltYiB0byAxNzAwMCBmZWV0cyBtYXhpbXVtIGNl aWxpbmcgcG9zc2libGUgdGhpcyBkYXkgd2l0aG91dCBveHlnZW4NCk9uIHRoZSBtaWRkbGUgbGVm dCBvZiB0aGUgc2Vjb25kIHBpY3R1cmUgdGhlcmUgaXMgdGhlICJDZXJ2aW4iDQpHb29kIGV2ZW5p bmcNCg0KTWljaGVsIEFVVlJBWVttYXUxMV0gIEYtUEZHVCBCdWlsZGVyIDE0NS01NTAgaG91cnMg DQpbbWF1MTFdICAgDQo8TW9udCBCbGFuYzEgMTUtMTEtMjAxMi5qcGc+DQo8TW9udCBCbGFuYzIg MTUtMTEtMjAxMi5qcGc+DQoNCg0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCl8tPQ0KXy09ICAgICAgIC0tIFBsZWFzZSBTdXBw b3J0IFlvdXIgTGlzdHMgVGhpcyBNb250aCAtLQ0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAoQW5kIEdldCBTb21l IEFXRVNPTUUgRlJFRSBHaWZ0cyEpDQpfLT0NCl8tPSAgIE5vdmVtYmVyIGlzIHRoZSBBbm51YWwg TGlzdCBGdW5kIFJhaXNlci4gIENsaWNrIG9uDQpfLT0gICB0aGUgQ29udHJpYnV0aW9uIGxpbmsg YmVsb3cgdG8gZmluZCBvdXQgbW9yZSBhYm91dA0KXy09ICAgdGhpcyB5ZWFyJ3MgVGVycmlmaWMg RnJlZSBJbmNlbnRpdmUgR2lmdHMgcHJvdmlkZWQNCl8tPSAgIGJ5Og0KXy09ICAgDQpfLT0gICAg ICogQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljIHd3dy5hZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMuY29tDQpfLT0gICAgICogVGhlIEJ1aWxk ZXIncyBCb29rc3RvcmUgd3d3LmJ1aWxkZXJzYm9va3MuY29tDQpfLT0gICAgICogSG9tZWJ1aWx0 SEVMUCB3d3cuaG9tZWJ1aWx0aGVscC5jb20NCl8tPQ0KXy09ICAgTGlzdCBDb250cmlidXRpb24g V2ViIFNpdGU6DQpfLT0NCl8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJp YnV0aW9uDQpfLT0NCl8tPSAgIFRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBnZW5lcm91cyBzdXBwb3J0IQ0K Xy09DQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3Qg QWRtaW4uDQpfLT0NCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgLSBUaGUgRXVyb3BhLUxpc3QgRW1haWwg Rm9ydW0gLQ0KXy09IFVzZSB0aGUgTWF0cm9uaWNzIExpc3QgRmVhdHVyZXMgTmF2aWdhdG9yIHRv IGJyb3dzZQ0KXy09IHRoZSBtYW55IExpc3QgdXRpbGl0aWVzIHN1Y2ggYXMgTGlzdCBVbi9TdWJz Y3JpcHRpb24sDQpfLT0gQXJjaGl2ZSBTZWFyY2ggJiBEb3dubG9hZCwgNy1EYXkgQnJvd3NlLCBD aGF0LCBGQVEsDQpfLT0gUGhvdG9zaGFyZSwgYW5kIG11Y2ggbXVjaCBtb3JlOg0KXy09DQpfLT0g ICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL05hdmlnYXRvcj9FdXJvcGEtTGlzdA0KXy09 DQpfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PQ0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBNQVRST05JQ1MgV0VCIEZPUlVNUyAtDQpfLT0g U2FtZSBncmVhdCBjb250ZW50IGFsc28gYXZhaWxhYmxlIHZpYSB0aGUgV2ViIEZvcnVtcyENCl8t PQ0KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KXy09DQpfLT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.