---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/05/13: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:02 AM - Re: Bendix Skymap 111C (John Price) 2. 06:08 AM - Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus (Max Cointe) 3. 07:52 AM - Engine (spcialeffects) 4. 09:35 AM - Re: Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus (pestar) 5. 08:41 PM - Re: Power loss and Inspecting comments (Bud Yerly) 6. 09:10 PM - Re: Power loss and Inspecting comments (Paul McAllister) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:00 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Bendix Skymap 111C From: "John Price" Grateful thanks to Ivor, we now have a working GPS in our Europa. John. G-SHSH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391632#391632 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:48 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: Europa-List: Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus Hi there all, happy new year and good flights! I maintain two ships (an Europa XS and of a MCR 4S) both equipped with a Rotax 912 ULS, both inherited with each their specific oil : Yacco for the Europa and Aero Shell for the MCR. Both oils listed by Rotax but I wish I could have only one supplier and only one shelf. Any advice concerning the change from oil to another one. What could be the best process? Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr MCR 4S #27-2002 / 1550 heures F-PLDJ 912ULSFR / MT-Prop MTV7A and F-PMLH Europa_TriGear Kit #560 912ULS Airmaster 450 hours ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:36 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Engine From: "spcialeffects" Came across this, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221163351992?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 not sure if its of any interest to anyone, not long left on it. How much would one be from a dealer? is this a big saving? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391656#391656 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:55 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Yacco AVX500 or Aero Shell sport plus From: "pestar" If it was me I would go for the Aero Shell product which I use in my 914 and would make the change when the next oil & filter change is due. Reason Shell is usually universally available. My 2 cents worth. Cheers Peter -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391667#391667 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:20 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Power loss and Inspecting comments Jim, and tibits for the rest of us: After the tire failure and the subsequent off roading mud and dirt experience while cross country, I commend you for your pursuit of the problem which cost you much time, and money. You knew you had a mud plugged vent, but an experienced guy like you missed the kinked vent line cause. So what's a normal guy to do? I had to ponder that we (really me), are always quick to assume an engine related problem is causing the power loss. You told me about finding the kink but I still assumed that you had a carb problem. You cleared the clogged vent, but who would have thought about the rest of the vent system and a possible kinked line when the plane has been flying for years. I am anal about fuel system install and operation, but once installed, I rarely look beyond making sure there is not chaffing or leaks. Added for all of us: Recently I just finished an extended annual and another fuel tank replacement / annual in a couple aircraft that I helped customers build back in 2002 and 2004. Interesting to note that on both aircraft, that they were past the 5 year hose replacement timeframe (we all dread that). In both aircraft I found that the vent line was kinked or compromised. In one of the aircraft when the upholsterer forced the fabric around the fuel cover he had forced the fuel cover over one of the polyurethane vent lines and over time the cover pushed on it nearly flat so it barely vented properly, and on the other, the vent line was perfect looking, but the hose was horribly brittle because the vent tube was made from clear Tygon tubing. Tygon is supposed to be completely impervious to fuel related problems. Duh, maybe not... In my old Europa Operators Manual there was the requirement to pull the fuel bosses off and flush the tank annually, which is quite tough, but never to check our vent system, and in the new ops manual, it only indicates to check and inspect for leaks. The 5 year recommendation for changing hoses is still there, but not the vent lines. Vent lines never get checked. As far as I know, you are the first with an underside vent that ever got plugged, however, you are the only mono I know of with the vent on the bottom and operate off of grass a lot. In the trigear the vent on the bottom is always clean, but your point of the oil overflow on the right side of the cowl exit and a centrally located vent will be a potential problem for oil, grime and dirt. I'll have to admit I will make sure my annual checklist is changed to check the vents. I prefer not to vent out of the top because with the motor glider in turns when trying to soar, the fuel sprays out of the vent in right turns. It also will vent fuel out if overfilled on a hot day in Florida and let set in the sun (especially a mono), which of course can ruining the paint. Inspecting an aircraft is not an exact science. Manufacturers and regulating agencies give only vague guidance. We are the manufacturer as the builder, so we set the guidelines for inspections of our aircraft, and if the kit manufacturer gives guidance, we the manufacturer of the aircraft should be more specific, not less to include info on our added systems, changes, modifications, and additional wear areas or time change items due to all the above. I'm in the US, and have my A&P use the FAA FAR 43 Appendix D as well as the engine 100 hour checklist and I insist on him using the Kit Manufacturers guidelines such as the Appendix E of the build manual and Section 8 of the Ops manual when inspecting an experimental aircraft. Now, I have been accused of doing a complete rebuild instead of an annual inspection, but I am anal so that is my excuse, but on an experimental aircraft (especially one I didn't help build or maintain) I have found that there are many non standard items, routing conflicts between wiring, fuel lines, brake lines and control cables, as well as poor installation of equipment and structural construction mistakes that the builder and final FAA inspector missed on the initial Airworthiness Inspection. The FAA actually requires us, as US Experimental Aircraft Manufacturers, to have established maintenance and operations procedures. I am attaching my personal annual inspection checklist out in the open to show what we the builder can do to improve the inspections on our aircraft. I only just added an item to inspect the fuel vents since you called me about the problem weeks ago. I developed this checklist long ago, before becoming a Europa owner and just tailored it to include items in the Europa Section 8 inspection, the FAA and LAA recommended guidelines etc. I am preparing to submit some of this info in a condensed fashion in an updated Tech Support section of Europa's Website as well as some other notes we all should know when maintaining the Europa. Now this is my personal checklist, not for general dissemination as a Europa Directive, but provided for others to see that an annual inspection is not a walk around. But then again, it is not an IRAN (Inspect and Repair as Necessary) like the military does by completely disassembling every panel, inside and out, instruments, wings, engine, etc. and inspect, refurbish, service and repair all the above, it is however, more than a quick check for wrinkles in the skin, change the oil and sign it off. Great job of troubleshooting and thanks for the report Jim. Your findings and my recent observations have changed my annual checklist for sure... Regards, Bud Yerly ---- Original Message ----- From: h&jeuropa To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:55 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 surging/loss of power > An update, fuel tank vent restriction. We trailered our Europa home from Colorado and commenced with the annual condition inspection. As part of that, we sent out the carbs for overhaul - no problems noted. We replaced all the 4mm turbo control hoses per the 5 year requirement - no defective hoses were found. The carb sockets were updated to the latest specification 2 years ago and inspection showed no cracks. A few hours prior to this trip we had inspected all fuel filters including the ones in the electric pumps. No debris was found - we haven't had debris in the filters in several years. What we did find were restrictions in the fuel tank venting system. The result of these restrictions is that the fuel flow was limited to the amount of air that could get by the restrictions which was way less than 5 to 6 gallons per hour that we normally use at cruise! We have a modified fuel vent system, similar to that described on Custom Flight Creations website. The tank vent (Tygon SE 200 fuel line tubing) leads to the top of the cobra where it is connected to the cobra. From the top of the cobra, a vent line (more Tygon SE200) goes over the head of the cobra to the belly of the fuselage. The sight gauge vent and long range tank vent join together and go over the top of the cobra independent of the fuel tank vent. All three vents join together a foot below the top of the cobra and then a single tube goes to the belly vent. The vent on the belly is fabricated similar to the build manual instructions for the original factory vent on the top of the fuselage - it is a piece of 1/8" tubing bent to face forward into the airstream and has two 1/8" bypass holes in the rear in case the main opening gets clogged. In Colorado we discovered the belly vent was packed full of debris. There was even debris sticking out of one the bypass holes. We managed to clear and clean that vent tube using carb cleaner in an aerosol can. We did this before the test flight. It was really plugged because it is difficult to access on preflight and difficult to tell if it has debris. In our case we hadn't blown it out in several years and between a little oil from the engine and operating mostly off grass strips a oily mess accumulated. We have added cleaning the belly vent with aerosol cleaner to our condition inspection checklist! In Colorado we also noticed that the Tygon tubing going over the cobra looked a little kinked, but figured it hadn't changed or gotten more kinked during this trip. But now we think that it did. On this trip we filled the tank all the way up into the neck of the cobra to have the maximum amount of fuel on board. We also added a quart of oil about 10 hours before all these problems - but that actually overfilled the oil tank and caused it to blow by and out the oil tank vent onto the belly of the airplane helping plug the fuel tank vent. With the belly vent blocked or nearly so, there was very little air available to replace the fuel being drawn from the tank, so the air space in the top of the tank and in the vent line was being put under vacuum which caused the tygon tubing to kink more. We did one test flight in Colorado and the engine ran normally. However that was after using a few gallons of fuel doing all kinds of ground tests, so there was more air space in the fuel tank and the tank walls could collapse a little. But we topped up into the cobra again before our last departure and subsequent precautionary landing. So we have replaced the tygon tubing with aluminum tubing over the cobra head to prevent kinking in the future. We also moved the return line from the fuel regulator from the bottom of the fuel tank to the top of the tank because our tech adviser advised that certificated aircraft do not return fuel to the bottom of the tank. We've only made a couple test flights since (runway is snow covered now) but they were normal. The big learning experiences: be sure the fuel tank vent on the belly is clear, be sure there are no kinks or restrictions in the fuel tank vent system and clean the belly tank vent thoroughly every condition inspection. Funny how we always thought about the fuel tank vent system in terms of space for fuel to expand while sitting in the sun and in terms of letting air out of the tank during refueling, but we never thought about it's most important job of letting air into the tank to replace fuel consumed! Jim & Heather N241BW XS Mono, 914, Airmaster 425 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391288#391288 www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Power loss and Inspecting comments From: Paul McAllister Bud, Thank you for your comments. Well thought out and valuable as always. I was one of the earlier pioneers of the system to route my filling vent and into the top of the cobra inlet. For the fuel tank / system vent I did something different again. I adopted the idea that Robin use and placed my vent in the backside of the wing root. At the time I thought this was a great idea, but over time perhaps its only a good idea, maybe not even that. The upside is that it is unlikely to be plugged by mud, but there are a number of downsides: - Once in a great while, if I over fill the tank, it will run out of this vent and out of the wing root over the flap. I inspect the flap regularly to make sure fuel has not got inside the core and dissolved the foam. - If I over fill the tank the fumes make there way into the flap drive slot during flight. - I have to take the wing off to inspect the vent which doesn't happen regularly. There is a slight risk on my area that an insect called a "Mud Dauber" can get in there. So, in conclusion, while these departures from the original design seem like a good idea there are often hidden consequences. Over the years I have become involved in inspecting and technical counselling for the EAA, and the experience of this community has taught me that fuel systems and modifications to them feature high on the list of accident causes. Cheers, Paul On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > ** > Jim, and tibits for the rest of us: > After the tire failure and the subsequent off roading mud and > dirt experience while cross country, I commend you for your pursuit of the > problem which cost you much time, and money. You knew you had a mud > plugged vent, but an experienced guy like you missed the kinked vent line > cause. So what's a normal guy to do? > > I had to ponder that we (really me), are always quick to assume an engine > related problem is causing the power loss. You told me about finding the > kink but I still assumed that you had a carb problem. You cleared the > clogged vent, but who would have thought about the rest of the vent system > and a possible kinked line when the plane has been flying for years. I am > anal about fuel system install and operation, but once installed, I rarely > look beyond making sure there is not chaffing or leaks. > > Added for all of us: > Recently I just finished an extended annual and another fuel tank > replacement / annual in a couple aircraft that I helped customers build > back in 2002 and 2004. Interesting to note that on both aircraft, > that they were past the 5 year hose replacement timeframe (we all dread > that). In both aircraft I found that the vent line was kinked or > compromised. In one of the aircraft when the upholsterer forced the fabric > around the fuel cover he had forced the fuel cover over one of the > polyurethane vent lines and over time the cover pushed on it nearly flat so > it barely vented properly, and on the other, the vent line was perfect > looking, but the hose was horribly brittle because the vent tube was made > from clear Tygon tubing. Tygon is supposed to be completely impervious to > fuel related problems. Duh, maybe not... > > In my old Europa Operators Manual there was the requirement to pull the > fuel bosses off and flush the tank annually, which is quite tough, but > never to check our vent system, and in the new ops manual, it only > indicates to check and inspect for leaks. The 5 year recommendation for > changing hoses is still there, but not the vent lines. Vent lines never > get checked. > > As far as I know, you are the first with an underside vent that ever got > plugged, however, you are the only mono I know of with the vent on the > bottom and operate off of grass a lot. In the trigear the vent on the > bottom is always clean, but your point of the oil overflow on the right > side of the cowl exit and a centrally located vent will be a potential > problem for oil, grime and dirt. I'll have to admit I will make sure my > annual checklist is changed to check the vents. > > I prefer not to vent out of the top because with the motor glider in turns > when trying to soar, the fuel sprays out of the vent in right turns. It > also will vent fuel out if overfilled on a hot day in Florida and let set > in the sun (especially a mono), which of course can ruining the paint. > > Inspecting an aircraft is not an exact science. Manufacturers and > regulating agencies give only vague guidance. We are the manufacturer as > the builder, so we set the guidelines for inspections of our aircraft, and > if the kit manufacturer gives guidance, we the manufacturer of the aircraft > should be more specific, not less to include info on our added systems, > changes, modifications, and additional wear areas or time change items due > to all the above. I'm in the US, and have my A&P use the FAA FAR 43 > Appendix D as well as the engine 100 hour checklist and I insist on him > using the Kit Manufacturers guidelines such as the Appendix E of the build > manual and Section 8 of the Ops manual when inspecting an experimental > aircraft. Now, I have been accused of doing a complete rebuild instead of > an annual inspection, but I am anal so that is my excuse, but on an > experimental aircraft (especially one I didn't help build or maintain) I > have found that there are many non standard items, routing conflicts > between wiring, fuel lines, brake lines and control cables, as well as poor > installation of equipment and structural construction mistakes that the > builder and final FAA inspector missed on the initial Airworthiness > Inspection. The FAA actually requires us, as US Experimental Aircraft > Manufacturers, to have established maintenance and operations procedures. > > I am attaching my personal annual inspection checklist out in the open to > show what we the builder can do to improve the inspections on our > aircraft. I only just added an item to inspect the fuel vents since you > called me about the problem weeks ago. I developed this checklist long > ago, before becoming a Europa owner and just tailored it to include items > in the Europa Section 8 inspection, the FAA and LAA recommended guidelines > etc. I am preparing to submit some of this info in a condensed fashion in > an updated Tech Support section of Europa's Website as well as some other > notes we all should know when maintaining the Europa. Now this is my > personal checklist, not for general dissemination as a Europa Directive, > but provided for others to see that an annual inspection is not a walk > around. But then again, it is not an IRAN (Inspect and Repair as > Necessary) like the military does by completely disassembling every panel, > inside and out, instruments, wings, engine, etc. and inspect, refurbish, > service and repair all the above, it is however, more than a quick check > for wrinkles in the skin, change the oil and sign it off. > > Great job of troubleshooting and thanks for the report Jim. Your findings > and my recent observations have changed my annual checklist for sure... > > Regards, > Bud Yerly > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.