---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/06/13: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:14 AM - Re: Power loss and Inspecting comments (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 2. 05:18 AM - UL91 (David Joyce) 3. 11:27 AM - Re: UL91 (Duncan & Ami) 4. 11:44 AM - Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106? (G-ODTW) 5. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106? (Neville Eyre) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:44 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Power loss and Inspecting comments Paul, Jim & Bud=0AI still think aluminum is the best advice for the breathe r and it needs to be grounded, fuel droplets rushing up the tygon during fu eling=0Acan act like a Van de Graaf static generator. I'm-pretty-sure t hat was the cause of the fire my German friends had at Luebek .=0AThey were refueling after a 2 hour flight, hot dry day. Standard breather system, va pour coming out of the breather, a foot or so from the filler,=0A(this was a Classic) metal Jerry can sitting in the car for hours.=0AHolding the meta l funnel waiting for the last bit of fuel to drain in. Quiet "POP!" and fla mes in the funnel. Burning fuel was split on the top-=0Aof the fuselage a nd over the tailplane as Jens threw the burning funnel away. His arm got bu rnt too.=0A-Graham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Paul McAllister =0ATo: "europa-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Sunday, 6 January 2013, 5:09=0ASubject : Re: Europa-List: Power loss and Inspecting comments=0A =0A=0ABud,=0A=0ATh ank you for your comments. -Well thought out and valuable as always.=0A =0AI was one of the earlier pioneers of the system to route my filling vent and into the top of the cobra inlet. For the fuel tank / system vent I did something different again.=0A=0AI adopted the idea that Robin use and plac ed my vent in the backside of the wing root. -At the time I thought this was a great idea, but over time perhaps its only a good idea, maybe not eve n that. -The upside is that it is unlikely to be plugged by mud, but ther e are a number of downsides:=0A=0A- Once in a great while, if I over fill t he tank, it will run out of this vent and out of the wing root over the fla p. I inspect the flap regularly to make sure fuel has not got inside the co re and-dissolved-the foam.=0A=0A- If I over fill the tank the fumes mak e there way into the flap drive slot during flight.=0A=0A- I have to take t he wing off to inspect the vent which doesn't happen regularly. -There is a slight risk on my area that an insect called a "Mud Dauber" can get in t here.=0A=0ASo, in conclusion, while these departures from the-original- design seem like a good idea there are often hidden-consequences.=0A=0AOv er the years I have become involved in inspecting and technical-counselli ng-for the EAA, and the experience of this community has taught me that f uel systems and modifications to them feature high on the list of accident causes.=0A=0ACheers, Paul=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Bud Yerly wrote:=0A=0A =0A>Jim, and tibits for the rest of us:=0A>After the tire failure and the subsequent off roading m ud and =0Adirt-experience-while cross country, I commend you for your p ursuit of =0Athe problem which cost you much time, and money.- You knew y ou had a mud =0Aplugged vent, but an experienced guy like you missed the ki nked vent line =0Acause.- So what's a normal guy to do?=0A>-=0A>I had t o ponder that we (really me),-are always quick to assume an =0Aengine rel ated problem-is causing-the power loss.- You told me =0Aabout finding the kink but I still assumed that you had a carb problem.- =0AYou cleare d the clogged vent, but who would have thought about the rest of the =0Aven t system and a possible kinked line when the plane has been flying for =0Ay ears.- I am anal about fuel system install and operation, but once =0Ains talled, I rarely look beyond making sure there is not chaffing or =0Aleaks. =0A>-=0A>Added for all of us:=0A>Recently I just finished an extended ann ual and another fuel tank =0Areplacement-/ annual in a couple aircraft th at I helped =0Acustomers-build back in 2002 and 2004.- Interesting to n ote that on =0Aboth aircraft, that-they were past the 5 year hose replace ment timeframe =0A(we all dread that).- In both aircraft I found that the vent line was =0Akinked or compromised.- In one of the aircraft when the upholsterer forced =0Athe fabric around the fuel cover-he had-forced t he fuel-cover =0Aover-one of the polyurethane vent lines and over time the cover pushed on =0Ait nearly flat so it barely vented properly, and on the other, the vent line was =0Aperfect looking, but the hose was horribly brittle because the vent tube was =0Amade from clear Tygon tubing.- Tygon is supposed to be completely =0Aimpervious to fuel related problems.- Du h, maybe not...=0A>-=0A>In-my old-Europa Operators Manual there was t he requirement to =0Apull the fuel bosses off and flush the tank annually, which is quite tough, but =0Anever to check our vent system, and in the new ops manual, it only indicates to =0Acheck and inspect for leaks.- The 5 year recommendation for changing hoses =0Ais still there, but not the vent lines.- Vent lines never get =0Achecked.- =0A>-=0A>As far as I know, you are the first with an underside-vent that ever =0Agot plugged, howeve r, you are the only mono I know of with the vent on the =0Abottom and opera te off of grass a lot.- In the trigear the vent on the =0Abottom is alway s-clean, but your point of the oil overflow on the right =0Aside of the c owl exit and a centrally located vent will be a potential problem =0Afor oi l, grime and dirt.- I'll have to admit I will make sure my annual =0Achec klist is changed to check the vents.=0A>-=0A>I prefer not to vent out of the top because with the motor glider in turns =0Awhen trying to soar, the fuel sprays out of the vent in right turns.- It =0Aalso will vent fuel ou t if overfilled on a hot day in Florida and let set in the =0Asun (especial ly a mono), which of course can ruining the paint.- =0A>-=0A>Inspecting an aircraft is not an exact science.- Manufacturers and =0Aregulating ag encies give only vague guidance.- We are the manufacturer as =0Athe build er, so we-set the guidelines-for inspections of our aircraft, =0Aand if the kit manufacturer gives guidance, we the manufacturer of the aircraft =0Ashould be more specific, not less to include info on our added systems, changes, =0Amodifications, and additional wear areas or time change items -due to all =0Athe above. -I'm in the US, and have my A&P use the FAA F AR 43 Appendix =0AD as well as the engine 100 hour checklist and I insist o n-him using the =0AKit Manufacturers guidelines such as the Appendix-E of the build =0Amanual-and Section 8 of the Ops manual when inspecting an experimental =0Aaircraft.--Now, I have been accused of doing a complet e rebuild =0Ainstead of an annual inspection, but I am anal so that is my e xcuse, but on an =0Aexperimental aircraft (especially one I didn't help-b uild or =0Amaintain)-I have found that there are many non standard items, routing =0Aconflicts between wiring, fuel lines,-brake lines and control cables, as =0Awell as poor installation-of equipment and structural cons truction mistakes =0Athat the builder and final FAA-inspector missed on t he =0Ainitial-Airworthiness Inspection.- The FAA actually requires us, as US =0AExperimental Aircraft Manufacturers, to have-established mainten ance and =0Aoperations procedures.=0A>-=0A>I am attaching my personal ann ual inspection-checklist out in the open =0Ato show what we the builder c an do to improve the inspections on our =0Aaircraft.--I only just added an item to inspect the fuel vents since =0Ayou called me about the problem weeks ago.- I developed this checklist long =0Aago, before becoming a Eu ropa owner and just tailored it to include items in the =0AEuropa Section 8 inspection, the FAA and LAA recommended guidelines etc.- I =0Aam prepari ng to submit some of this info in a condensed fashion-in an =0Aupdated Te ch Support section of Europa's Website as well as some other notes we =0Aal l should know when maintaining the Europa.- Now this is my personal =0Ach ecklist, not for general dissemination as a Europa Directive, but provided for =0Aothers to see that an annual inspection is not a walk around.- But then =0Aagain, it is not an IRAN (Inspect and Repair as Necessary) like th e military =0Adoes by completely disassembling every panel, inside and out, instruments, =0Awings, engine,-etc. and inspect, refurbish, service and repair all the =0Aabove, it is however,-more than a quick check for wrink les in the skin, =0Achange the oil and sign it off.=0A>-=0A>Great job of troubleshooting and thanks for the report =0AJim.--Your-findings and my recent observations have-changed =0Amy annual checklist for sure...=0A =========================0A ======================= ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:57 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: UL91 Does anyone have any idea on the relative calorific value of Avgas, Mogas and UL91, or more to the point, what effect the choice would have on range/ miles per litre? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:39 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami" Subject: RE: Europa-List: UL91 David, About 47 and 44 MJ/Kg respectively for Avgas and Mogas. I don't know what the figure for UL91 is, but is supposed to be better than Mogas and uses AVGAS feedstock. The presence of any alcohol in Mogas will dilute its calorific value, although the fuel may burn more efficiently. Some folks report that AVGAS takes them further, but I've not noticed personally any substantial variation. Then there are additives: 50ml of acetone in a tank of petrol is supposed to increase 'gas mileage' by about 3-5%. That works for me in the car, but I wouldn't dare try it in the Europa. Others swear a benefit from a 1:600 addition of ashless high grade 2-stroke oil (TC-W3), similar to the addition of Redex or Marvel Mystery Oil. I haven't tried that (yet). BTW, Mogas supplied by Murco in the UK does not (as far as I can detect) currently contain alcohol. Duncan McF. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: 06 January 2013 13:18 Subject: Europa-List: UL91 --> Does anyone have any idea on the relative calorific value of Avgas, Mogas and UL91, or more to the point, what effect the choice would have on range/ miles per litre? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:00 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106? From: "G-ODTW" Thanks to everyone for your advice on tailplane filling. I have spoken to Nev Eyre, and I think I can now see how to progress. -------- David Walters 01474 816817 dave@robotas.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391712#391712 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106? From: Neville Eyre Hi All, As discussed on the phone Dave, here is my take on the subject, not all wil l agree, but look at the results of the contributors before you decide how to progress ? [ and see how it fares after 5+ years in service ?] Wash the surface with a hot / strong solution of washing powder [ DAZ / SUR F / OMO etc..] as hot as you can stand, don't get the surface too hot, just scrub the hell out of it with a scotchbrite / nail brush and flush it all off with fresh water. LET IT DRY, Out in the sun or in a hot room for 2 or 3 days. Scuff sand the surface to get all the shine off, go with the weave directio n to get down into the valleys, fold the paper [ 80 grit] to a knife edge t o get right in, vac' off all dust. DONT TOUCH IT WITH BARE HANDS FROM NOW O N ! Have a pair of new cotton cloves to hand [ pun not intended !] Keep the Expancell in a tin [ sweet / biscuit tub ?] and dry out any moistu re with a session in a warm oven [ as it is running down from a cooking ses sion.] DO NOT USE TIME EXPIRED RESIN ! In the UK, we are stuck with Ampreg 21 for structure [ it is cr*p ] but for filling we are not tied to it. If you have Ampreg 21, use it, if you need to buy resin, go with West . Mix the resin / hardener fully, add the dry Expancell until you don't think you can get any more in [ best to have a helper mixing for you as you get on with the prep' and filling ?] It should be so dry, like bread dough, you will be nearly able to pick it out of the mixing bucket. Make a note of we ight of resin to volume of Expancell for future batches. THIS BIT IS IMPORTANT !!! Mix up a new small batch of resin, and with a sho rt [ cut off to 1/2'' long bristles] brush, scrub the mixed resin onto the surface, just enough to make it damp / sticky, a bit like sellotape. Dump and force down REALLY HARD the Expancell mix onto the damp surface,wit h your favourite squeegee, the wet resin on the surface will fuse into the lean Expancell mix, and allow the Expancell to stick to the surface. If you can get the Expancell mix to stay on a dry surface, the mix is too runny, it will be heavier and harder to sand. If the lean Expancell mix won 't stick to a dry surface, [like frozen butter on fresh bread] but does sti ck to the moistened surface, you have it about right ! Don't piss about with fishing lines / profile gauges / lasers or any other black magic. Whack it on once and thick. Force it down VERY HARD WITH YOUR SQUEEGEE, this will get it into the weave, and get most of the air bubbles out [ later to haunt you as pinholes !] Get it filled too high, try and cra ft it smooth, but don't drag it about too much as you will pull it off agai n. If filled too high ONCE with this lean Expancell, after full cure, a WEEK a t 25 + [ no good this time of the year, I fog a black trace coat over it an d leave it out in the sun for 2 or 3 days in the summer], it will sand like dense balsa wood. Sand it down gently to profile, try not to overshoot too low. If you don't fill it high enough in the first place, and you have to re vis it the filling procedure, odds are the mix ratio of Expancell / resin will be different, and when you try to blend in the 2nd batch,[ which won't be a s well cured as the 1st batch] you will get a ''tide mark ridge'', which ma y need filling with a third batch, which will give you a double tide mark.. ..... Other personal views, don't use ANY of the Polyfiber products, don't want t o get sued by them, but I wouldn't fill / paint my Dustbin [Garbage can] w ith them. Their blue s**t filler is much heavier than lean Expancell, doesn 't stick as well, burns your skin if any of the sanding dust gets on you, c osts more, and if later covered by their paint, it will fall off at worst, or end in micro blisters all over at best ! Stay with Expancell up to profile stage, seal with PPG Barrier Prime, then if you are lazy, you can switch to polyester stopper for the PINHOLES ONLY [Dolphin Glaze by Upol is good], reseal with Barrier Prime before the prime r surfacer and Topcoat[UVR] ALL PPG. Topcoat will not hide any defects, it will highlight them, the surface need s to be perfect before you hit it with Topcoat. Use 3M products whenever you can, best results per =C2=A3 / $ [ abrasive p apers, masking tape etc...] The 3M ''HOOK - IT'' sanding boards and strips are very usefull. Pad the bench with pillows / foam to rest the surfaces on,padded weights an d / or webbing straps will tame the movement. Make up a heavy 36'' x 5'' x 3'' sanding block from plywood that 80 grit can be stapled to, so you can s and in a +/- 45 action to the span to get the profile without manufacturing ''dips''. Fog a light coat of black aerosol over the Expancell before you start sanding, to give you a guide as to where the highs are, if filled hig h enough, you will get the correct profile just as the weave starts to sho w through at the ''high'' areas of the surface ? Take it outside, with your back to the wind when sanding ! Have fun ! [No, there is only so much sanding in any one person, I reached that about 3 planes ago, so I won't anymore! ] Cheers, Nev. -----Original Message----- From: G-ODTW Sent: Sun, Jan 6, 2013 7:44 pm Subject: Europa-List: Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106? Thanks to everyone for your advice on tailplane filling. I have spoken to N ev yre, and I think I can now see how to progress. -------- avid Walters 1474 816817 ave@robotas.com ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391712#391712 -= - The Europa-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.