Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 01/26/13


Total Messages Posted: 2



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Fusalage fuel stains and gauges (Max Cointe)
     2. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: Fusalage fuel stains and gauges (Karl Heindl)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:32:52 AM PST US
    From: "Max Cointe" <mcointe@free.fr>
    Subject: Re: Fusalage fuel stains and gauges
    Bud, Some transceivers (FT-60, Vortex, =85) are said to be operational in the engine compartment. Then it=92s easy to put it between the tee (the other side of the tee being the return line) and the carbs. That=92s what I will install next as one has done already in few ships. Back to vents I didn=92t get any answer concerning the idea to open a hole in the cap of the filler as a vent and have a line from there directly to the tank. Probably none did it but anyone has an opinion on it? Max Cointe <mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly Envoy=E9 : samedi 26 janvier 2013 04:06 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Re: Europa-List: Re: Fusalage fuel stains and gauges Roland, Max and Alan. I have a love hate relationship with fuel gauges also. I have revisited the Priceton fuel probe (the 5S with 5 set points). It is the same old capacitance probe, just better electrics. Pro's: Small hole 1/2 inch in the top of the tank with a good grommet to seal the probe in without fear of popping out and leaking. I still put a cover over the sender to make sure it can't pop out (because I have seen it on annuals). Pretty reliable, mine is 5 years old and OK. Quite accurate if the fuel type (mogas or aviation 100LL) is kept consistent. With five set points I set my gauge as follows: E=0 or reserve fuel only as the gauge is on the pilot side. 1/4 = 2.5 gallons (basically filled to the hump). 1/2 = 5.0 gallons (that is the height of most tanks just at the level of the top of the arm rest (wheel well to the bulkhead point) 3/4 = 10 gallons (about the height at the break of the tank) F= 15 plus reserve so basically full with the old 18 gallon tank. The new tank is nearly 20. These points are pretty linear between each set point so it cuts down on the mental gymnastics. I use a Westach gauge, but have done it with the Dynon and the gauges are reliable. I am impressed with the consistency over time. Cons: As you know, if you change gas, all your settings change. What a pain. Takes a while to set the points. Did I mention it was a pain if you change gas. Not all EFIS or EIS systems read capacitance probes. The Europa float works quite well in the planes I installed it in. It is just a dumb cork float and resistance pot. If you are willing to experiment, there is a cute fuel bobber used in marine tanks with a spiral cork attached to a gauge. It reads on a 90 degree angle. Stupid simple, works with any fuel, but is behind you. They do make an electronic pickup. Problem is it has a large style 5 hole flange, which I hate. Mainly because the only thing to seal them with for trouble free operation is messy pro seal... Like many, I have a JPI fuel flow sender, which is dead accurate, provided you give it the proper starting amount. Once set, on landing, note the fuel installed and add that to the amount left and it is pretty darned good on my 914. I found out reading the new Rotax install manual that they have made a minor change to their fuel flow setups. Rotax had put in a drawing to place the fuel return orifice to be placed prior to the fuel sender. It will still regulate the pressure as it is supposed to and the 912S/ULS will have a dead accurate fuel flow reading. I haven't changed the two 912S aircraft in service in the shop, but am tempted. It is a lot of plumbing though. However, in August 2012 Rotax changed their Install manual and removed it because of their new fuel rail with built in return and orifice. Anyway, it is quite interesting. I have the drawing in an old manual. The problem is the orifice needs to be downstream of the mechanical pump, and the fuel flow sender is not made to take heat/fire in the engine compartment (manufacturer of the senders recommends and FAA frowns on senders in the engine compartment). One would have to take the line from the mechanical pump put in a tee with an orifice and return line back to the tank. From that tee the line continues to the fuel flow sender, then back to the carbs. The requirements of the fuel system is still met as the orifice drops the fuel pressure from the pumps just a bit to 5.8 max to keep the float needle operating properly... Regards, Bud Yerly 914, sight gauge that works, capacitance fuel gauge, JPI totalizer and of course a wrist watch, tach, MP and fuel charts.... Talk about department of redundant redundancy. ----- Original Message ----- From: Roland <mailto:schmidtroland@web.de> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:50 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fusalage fuel stains Hi Roger, I refuel after each flight absolutely to the top until fuel spits out of the breather and I see it in the tank, since I don't have a reliable fuel gauge. I then trailer my Europa home and to the airport for the next flight. No fuel comes out. So I cannot imagine, that you just overfilled. Hope this helps for troubleshooting. Regards Roland PH-ZTI XS Trigear 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392923#392923 <Bnbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ==== ===========


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:56:31 AM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Fusalage fuel stains and gauges
    Max=2C My only concern would be for rain water to get in. I may change my venting setup and I have studied all the other solutions.I would put a Y-fitting on top of the cobra=2C then connect the tank vent and the sight tube vent to it.The actual vent then would be the third outlet =2C and it would go down and exit the fuselage via one of the reclaimed ss elbows at a point where it would be hidden by the wing root. I would put a fine mesh gauze over the opening to ensure that no insects ever get into it .Would that be a stupid idea ? I like simple solutions Karl From: mcointe@free.fr Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Fusalage fuel stains and gauges Bud=2C Some transceivers (FT-60=2C Vortex=2C =85) are said to be operationa l in the engine compartment. Then it=92s easy to put it between the tee (th e other side of the tee being the return line) and the carbs. That=92s what I will install next as one has done already in few ships.Back to vents I d idn=92t get any answer concerning the idea to open a hole in the cap of the filler as a vent and have a line from there directly to the tank. Probably none did it but anyone has an opinion on it? Max Cointemcointe@free.frF-P MLH Europa XS_TriGearKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ D yn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures De : owne r-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matroni cs.com] De la part de Bud Yerly Envoy=E9 : samedi 26 janvier 2013 04:06 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Re: Europa-List: Re: Fusalage fuel stains and gauges Roland=2C Max and Alan.I have a love hate relationship with fuel gauges also. I have rev isited the Priceton fuel probe (the 5S with 5 set points).It is the same ol d capacitance probe=2C just better electrics. Pro's: Small hole 1/2 inch in the top of the tank with a good grommet to seal the probe in without fe ar of popping out and leaking. I still put a cover over the sender to make sure it can't pop out (because I have seen it on annuals). Pretty reliable =2C mine is 5 years old and OK. Quite accurate if the fuel type (mogas or a viation 100LL) is kept consistent.With five set points I set my gauge as fo llows: E=0 or reserve fuel only as the gauge is on the pilot side.1/4 = 2.5 gallons (basically filled to the hump).1/2 = 5.0 gallons (that is the height of most tanks just at the level of the top of the arm rest (whe el well to the bulkhead point)3/4 = 10 gallons (about the height at the b reak of the tank)F= 15 plus reserve so basically full with the old 18 gal lon tank. The new tank is nearly 20. These points are pretty linear betwee n each set point so it cuts down on the mental gymnastics. I use a Westach gauge=2C but have done it with the Dynon and the gauges are reliable. I a m impressed with the consistency over time. Cons: As you know=2C if you ch ange gas=2C all your settings change. What a pain.Takes a while to set the points.Did I mention it was a pain if you change gas.Not all EFIS or EIS s ystems read capacitance probes. The Europa float works quite well in the pl anes I installed it in. It is just a dumb cork float and resistance pot.If you are willing to experiment=2C there is a cute fuel bobber used in marin e tanks with a spiral cork attached to a gauge. It reads on a 90 degree an gle. Stupid simple=2C works with any fuel=2C but is behind you. They do m ake an electronic pickup. Problem is it has a large style 5 hole flange=2C which I hate. Mainly because the only thing to seal them with for trouble free operation is messy pro seal... Like many=2C I have a JPI fuel flow se nder=2C which is dead accurate=2C provided you give it the proper starting amount. Once set=2C on landing=2C note the fuel installed and add that to the amount left and it is pretty darned good on my 914. I found out reading the new Rotax install manual that they have made a minor change to their f uel flow setups. Rotax had put in a drawing to place the fuel return ori fice to be placed prior to the fuel sender. It will still regulate the pre ssure as it is supposed to and the 912S/ULS will have a dead accurate fuel flow reading. I haven't changed the two 912S aircraft in service in the s hop=2C but am tempted. It is a lot of plumbing though. However=2C in Augu st 2012 Rotax changed their Install manual and removed it because of their new fuel rail with built in return and orifice. Anyway=2C it is quite inte resting. I have the drawing in an old manual. The problem is the orifice n eeds to be downstream of the mechanical pump=2C and the fuel flow sender is not made to take heat/fire in the engine compartment (manufacturer of the senders recommends and FAA frowns on senders in the engine compartment). O ne would have to take the line from the mechanical pump put in a tee with a n orifice and return line back to the tank. From that tee the line continu es to the fuel flow sender=2C then back to the carbs. The requirements of the fuel system is still met as the orifice drops the fuel pressure from th e pumps just a bit to 5.8 max to keep the float needle operating properly.. . Regards=2CBud Yerly914=2C sight gauge that works=2C capacitance fuel gaug e=2C JPI totalizer and of course a wrist watch=2C tach=2C MP and fuel chart s.... Talk about department of redundant redundancy. ----- Original Messag e ----- From: Roland To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday=2C Janua ry 23=2C 2013 2:50 AMSubject: Europa-List: Re: Fusalage fuel stains --> Eur opa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland@web.de> Hi Roger=2C I refuel after each flight absolutely to the top until fuel spits out of th e breather and I see it in the tank=2C since I don't have a reliable fuel g auge. I then trailer my Europa home and to the airport for the next flight. No fuel comes out. So I cannot imagine=2C that you just overfilled. Hope this helps for troubleshooting. Regards Roland PH-ZTI XS Trigear 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392923#392923 <Bnbsp=3B Features Chat=2C http://www.matronnbsp=3B via the Web ti tle=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">htt p://forums.matronics.com _p=3B generous bsp=3B title=http://www.matroni cs.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://w ww.matronics.com/c================ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution




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