---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/18/13: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:43 AM - Re: Re: Mogas Fuel Tank Decals (Peter Jeffers) 2. 02:16 AM - Prices and Europa For Sale (DAVID JOYCE) 3. 05:10 AM - Europa Gear (Roger Sheridan) 4. 06:28 AM - Re: Europa Gear (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk) 5. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: Europa For Sale (Jeffrey Roberts) 6. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Aileron setup (Bud Yerly) 7. 01:27 PM - Re: Prices and Europa For Sale (Bud Yerly) 8. 02:45 PM - Re: Aileron setup (Richard Wheelwright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:36 AM PST US From: " Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Mogas Fuel Tank Decals The LAA have such stickers which they will send you for free when you have approval from them to run you're a/c on mogas. The appropriate forms are available on line on the LAA web site. Pete Jeffers LAA rep to the Europa Club -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 17 April 2013 23:02 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mogas Fuel Tank Decals Thanks Chaps. Another one, My cockpit labelling has been done by a DYNO TAP, The Black plastic emboss tape that you pill the back off ,and stick on. It is a very narrow tape that has been used, Can you still get these old label printers from about 20 years ago.? Need to get all my labelling up to date. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398832#398832 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:06 AM PST US From: DAVID JOYCE Subject: Europa-List: Prices and Europa For Sale My oh My what an emotive subject!=0A-=0AHaving just been exposed to this situation, I do feel somewhat qualified to pass comment. I have of course t o date been a buyer of two Europas and the seller of one.=0A-=0APoint 1 : There is no price or value that can be given to any aircraft in particular , each aircraft is worth differing amounts and it is worth exactly what the owner is prepared to decide to pass on the keys for- "no more and no les s" , of course there is the possibility that the prospective purchaser may not agree with the price a vendor is asking, its his prerogative and-at t his point-he can simply walk away, so of course can the vendor! Each to h is own. Our environment really is not akin to the world of Arfer Daley seco ndhand cars and never will be.=0A-=0APoint 2 : There may of course be a n umber extraneous circumstances resulting in an alleged bargain,- a prospe ctive purchaser chancing his hand and offering daft and silly amounts for t he aircraft for example, a high hour tired engine and or airframe, previous aircraft damage or accident, a model less desirable than a current one, VP Prop, Tri Gear - Mono, perhaps the owner having a run of bad luck financia lly or medically and having to sell within a short period of time, etc etc there are many reasons!=0A-=0AAs for missing a cheap aircraft, well if it s missed its gone, vamoose. Maybe another one will turn up maybe it wont. R eferring to point 2 there are many reasons an aircraft may appear to be che ap or cheaper than others. People that desire cheap aircraft are usually th e ones that have very little knowledge of the time effort and ability requi red to build, maintain or indeed to refurbish a Europa aircraft.=0A-=0AAs we all know these are the same owners that the LAA are most concerned abou t as they simply don't understand the fuel systems, the operation and the r equired maintenance of our aircraft, because they did not build or work on it extensively, there have of course been several well documented accidents to date to prove it.-These regrettably are the same group looking- and searching for that elusive-"bargain" and IMHO do not understand either t he aircraft or etiquette and furthermore our own close knit Europa owning c ommunity!=0A-=0AAnd to conclude:=0A-=0AA Rolls Royce is clearly worth m ore than-a VW Golf- (both made by same company) but both still a motor car!- I am still searching for a 2 year old Rolls Ghost for =A310,000 - "I am not holding my breath though" and hope I dont find one with differing chassis numbers at both ends or one that has been in a total loss accident .=0A-=0Argds to you all=0A-=0ADavid Joyce=0AThe other one :-)=0A=0ASent to you from David Joyce=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Trevpond@aol.com" =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.co m =0ASent: Tuesday, 16 April 2013, 12:13=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Eu ropa For Sale=0A =0A=0A=0ATo Build a 914 Trigear, include a very good pane l with a customised =0Ainterior will cost =A360,000 for the bits!- I know of two being built at the =0Amoment that will cost around =A3100,000 finis hed. =0A=0AI would remind you Guys about a Europa that was recently put on sale and =0Athe owner was smothered in dreamers and-others looking for fr ee flights who =0Athought they could buy the aircraft for =A320,000.- The syndicates are the =0Abest, 5 lads all looking for a flight for free!! =0A =0AI agree that some of the old Classics were cheap to build, were fairly =0Abasic with a 912 engine and gave amazing performance and so much pleasur e to =0Atheir owners, but a Europa these days costs three times as much to build. =0A=0ATrev =0AG-LINN =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 16/04/2013 11:51:26 GMT Daylight Time, =0Aalancarteresq@onetel.net writes: =0A--> Eu ropa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" =0A> =0A>Hi Roland.=0A>It is hard from a photo, =0A but the fit of the inspecti on panels looks neat.=0A>i have seen some untidy =0A ones, and that's give s a little clue as to the build, it has a air vent on the =0A fin, what,s this for,?=0A>A fixed trim tab on the aileron, so needs a little =0A tweak ing.=0A>Would like to see the Instrument Panel, Please post it on the =0A forum,??=0A>=0A>Alan=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online =0A here: =0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398700#398700 =0A>=0A =============== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Europa Gear From: Roger Sheridan Hi Nigel, Just a note to say I enjoyed reading your gear design article in the Europa Flyer. Do you think an airspring could be used to good effect in the mono gear suspension? Brgds, Roger On 17 Apr 2013, at 18:48, nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk wrote: > > Hi Dave, (or anyone else wishing to join/renew) > > The easiest method of setting up your Standing Order is to use on-line banking. > Each banks website is slightly different but in essence you log in to your account then navigate to the section for setting up "Standing Orders and Direct Debits" > Choose "Standing Orders" and fill in the details as requested. > The beneficiary is "The Europa Club" > Beneficiary Sort code is : 60-05-16 > Beneficiary Account Number is: 18590063 > For Reference use your EC Membership Number (you can find this on you Europa Flyer address label if you have forgotten) > Payment date is 1st April > Amount: 25 > Request that payment be made annually until further notice. > > Since we have passed 1st April this year you could make a one-off fund transfer using the above account details and reference to cover this years membership. > > It's really that simple - I set my own Standing Order up the same way - so I know it works. > > Any problems, contact me off-list on treasurer@theeuropaclub.org and I can sort you out. > > Nigel > Treasurer > The Europa Club > treasurer@theeuropaclub.org > > > > > On 17/04/2013 16:08, Dave Disney wrote: >> >> I've just received my copy of Eropa Flyer and was expecting to find the details to set up a standing order for continued club membership included. >> >> As they it's not included could somebody PM me the club bank details or advise if they are on the club web site so I can set this up. Thanks >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398802#398802 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:52 AM PST US From: nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Gear Hi Roger, Thanks for your kind words. The short answer to your questions is "Yes ........ and No". It would almost certainly be possible to fit an airspring into the space available on the mono gear, but the "spring" is only half of the suspension system. The bit that is needed to control the bounce is the damper and as discussed in the article, there is precious little space to fit a damper of anywhere near the strength needed to control the forces involved (while maintaining the ability to retract the gear). I actually have a great respect for the guys that designed the original arrangement. Nigel On 18/04/2013 14:09, Roger Sheridan wrote: > > Hi Nigel, > > Just a note to say I enjoyed reading your gear design article in the > Europa Flyer. > Do you think an airspring could be used to good effect in the mono > gear suspension? > > Brgds, > > Roger > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:44 AM PST US From: Jeffrey Roberts Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa For Sale Thanks Troy, You'll have to give us all a report on Sun-N-Fun one day. I was there but only for a day. Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush / FOR SALE On Apr 17, 2013, at 11:30 PM, Troy Maynor wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > I hate to see you part with GR. I wish very much there was some way I could take her. I had the awesome privilege to ride shotgun in her at Rough River a few years ago in the fly over with Jeff Behrnes and John Lawton. I can confirm this is one of the best Europas I have seen. Maybe I could hit the lottery. Good luck with everything Jeff. > Troy > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398850#398850 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:10 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Aileron setup Forgive me for not answering sooner Richard. Sun n Fun Airshow prep of three aircraft plus owner servicing left me running like a chicken with his head cut off. Please feel free for a rapid response to go to the Europa website and email direct. To your problem if you haven't already figured it out: Too much down is a simple fix, however you must do as others indicated and pull the wing and set your wing up stops properly. I set the up stop at 24 degrees using a simple protractor and by adjusting the short rod. Set your sticks to vertical and your fuselage QD belcranks to vertical. Adjust your wing long pushrod to set that QD perpendicular to the line between the main spar bushes. Once both wings are set, rig the wings as in my instruction (soon to be on the Europa website in tech tips). Note the aileron position. If both are up or down with the stick vertical your fuselage QDs spacers may be too tight or loose and or are off center with the bolts in the wing and or just a bit off vertical. Simply pull the wings and adjust the fuselage belcrank about 1/8 inch for about 5 degrees. Don't be surprised if you adjust it the wrong way first. We've all been there and done that. Once the ailerons are close, check that the stops are hitting prior to your aileron weights contacting the wing skin. As said many times, the stop on the left wing in the up position sets the down throw on the right wing. Now adjust the wing lateral pushrod to get it just right. It's a two hour job provided the wing incidence, sweep, and the like are correct. Best Regards, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Wheelwright To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 3:58 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Aileron setup > OK After another full day trying to get the Ailerons set up with failed result. It is simply, I have too much down and not enough up on the both Ailerons. The results are STBD 21.4 Up 22.1 Down 43.5 Total Movement Port 23.1 Down 21.4 Up 44.5 Total Should Be near to 22.5 Min to 25.5 Max UP 19 Min 22 Max Down 41.5 Min to 47.5 Max Total Setup as by the book. QD?Ts in the Fuselage and the Wing root vertical Stops at 24 degrees before wings rigged and adjustments. On trying to correct so there is less down throw by altering the long lateral pushrod in the wing in the opposite so it hits the stop, stopping the opposite aileron going down too far. OK now I measured the deflection it is now correct from its new position Not Neutral but slightly up. Now to bring the aileron back to neutral I have to shorten the aileron link rod. On doing so it puts the aileron back to exactly where I started from ???? Nothing gained at all just a waste of time. All I have to do is to get less down and more up. What am I missing ??? AirEupora I have Used Buds method a few times now and yes it works every time for the first setup to get everything in the neutral position. BUT still too much DOWN and not enough UP John, I?Tm getting within the correct ratio limits as you will see from above. It all just wants the deflections moving up about 2 degrees. Any suggestions will be very welcome :x -------- Richard Wheelwright G-IRPW 90% finished with that 90% to Finish Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397446#397446 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:07 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Prices and Europa For Sale There are buyers and sellers. I did a stint as a broker for AG Edwards and learned how value is more subjective than analytical. Same in aircraft. I have had excellent results in selling aircraft I have finished and trimmed out. However, the fact is that the original owner paid $100,000 USD to build his aircraft (with assistance) and was disappointed to only get $80,000 three years later. Keep in mind, the plane had no scratches, dents, stains, chips, and had a beautiful leather interior with embroidery. The panel, a solid VFR EFIS panel was clean, ergonomic, well labeled and designed for quick maintenance. The airframe had large, comfortable access holes, and you could eat off the engine compartment. The log books were perfectly documented, routine service was thoroughly documented, all factory kit mods, builder mods, and SBs were documented in a separate notebook in detail. The engine had a complete and accurate SB,SI, and SL listing for the specific engine and there was complete wiring diagrams and plug diagrams along with a printed notebook and DVD of all the build documentation for the maintainer. The aircraft stops folks walking at an airshow to admire its fit and finish. This aircraft was sold to a new owner when his wife looked in it and said, "You can buy this one", so negociations ceased after that. However, recently a young man delivered an aircraft to me with a massive fuel leak in the tank. (He got a ferry pilot dumb enough to fly it with a known fuel leak.) The plane was a steal at $35,000 he assured me, as it only had just over 40 hours on it. My pre fuel tank exchange inspection (basically one of my annal retentive annuals) indicated a total 12 Immediate action grounding items (Red X to those military guys) and 15 improper servicing, installation or wear problems. There was no documentation on the plane, the log books stated only a conditional inspection had been made over the last 3 years. The interior was painted (Lowe's house paint) with two adequate cushions. Instrumentation was minimal but working. The problems ranged from Annex E items out of tollerance (stab only had 9 degrees up, ailerons 15, rudder movement of 15 right and 40 left), improper Mod 52 install, ommitted structural reinforcement on the forward lift sockets, loose tail planes, a gascolator mounted 7 inches above the fuel tank bottom with an improper fuel pump (SB 4). The gascolator seal was weak and the fuel pump would not pull the gas from a level of the saddle height (about 2.5 gallons remaining per side) to the engine at all. The servicing problems were tire wear, improper wheel bearing install, mass balance arm corrosion, excessive drag in the pitch system, engine mount corrosion, etc. We put 305 man hours into the aircraft just to make it safe. The Jabiru engine was another story. The aircraft left with the same ferry pilot. He nearly stalled on takeoff because he failed to listen to me about the new control throws. He pulled full aft stick at 50KIAS to rotate and got a surprise. I fell for the same cheap airplane buy myself. I bought a flying used Europa trigear. Everyone commented on what a great airplane it was and it was a really good deal. The door came off while the owner transported it back by trailer from engine servicing down at Lockwood, after the door loss incident the owner decided to sell, so the aircraft was not flyable when I saw it. The wings were not available for inspection either... A local builder assistance center assured me it was a great aircraft just the door repair. Soon a previous Europa sales man told me "what ever you do, don't stall it". So I began a detailed inspection and found all the problems, the comment was, oh that is just the Europa, nobody can build one straight, you got a great deal, just fly it, however with one wing at 2.6 degrees and the other at 3.1 degrees incidence, I became suspect of my great deal. I disregarded the builder support guys opinion and started from nose to tail and fixed and upgraded everything to the Europa build manual and my own standards. So, $15000 in paint and upholstery later and 450 of my own man hours over 4 years (excluding paint, upholstery, engine upgrades and constant speed prop) it is the nicest flying aircraft, it's easy to maintain and is comfortable cruising at 30 mpg. The only thing original and not touched is the rudder hinges. We did so much to it, my FSDO saw me reskinning the wings and gave me authorization to apply a new builder kit number so as to be the builder rather than the second owner. I have not sold the aircraft because it flies so well now. That aircraft is 12AY which is also LSA capable. Was it worth it...You decide, I've put it behind me and help new owners build time until they break it. I find you get what you pay for. A typical show stopper Europa costs about $100,000 for a normal solid VFR bird (any builder assist not included). Used price is normally 75% of the build price (fit and finish rated at a 7 out of 10) in a good market. When guys ask what their bird is worth I give the following guidelines: I deduct $10,000 for a 300+ hour engine if the log books don't indicate proper commissioning, periodic service or is over the five year service interval. I deduct $2,000 for incomplete log books. I deduct $10,000 if the paint is not an aircraft quality paint or high end auto paint (you get what you pay for). I deduct $8000 if the interior is not fully and finely upholstered, free of stains and cuts, and the panel not painted to match. I deduct the full price of an instrument that is not operating or meeting spec. If I find one build error, and I normally find many, or ill fitting doors and cowl, that is time and material. So a good airframe 3-5 years old and 912S engine with good logs, a minimal VFR panel (Com, Transponder, Engine Mgmt system and Small EFIS) with no interior but cushions and good exterior paint should yield about $55,000 to $65,000 as a good deal. Motor gliders are more valuable and can fetch a bit more as do LSA models. However, when the market is down as it is now, some of these aircraft are going for $10,000 less than that for those owners needing to move the plane out of the expensive airport hangar for that new addition to the house for the grand kids... A partially built kit will yield far less than what the owner has in it. I have seen an assembled kit go for only $15,000 (no firewall forward) This is just my opinion. Jeff and I have not hooked up for me to fly the plane and evaluate it, but it is a good looking and running plane. A steal at his price if I say so myself. If I had put it on the stand at Sun 'n Fun I think it would have sold. Jeff, I have a guy looking, and will send him your way. He is about your size and should be a good "fit". Best Regards, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: DAVID JOYCE To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 5:13 AM Subject: Europa-List: Prices and Europa For Sale My oh My what an emotive subject! Having just been exposed to this situation, I do feel somewhat qualified to pass comment. I have of course to date been a buyer of two Europas and the seller of one. Point 1 : There is no price or value that can be given to any aircraft in particular, each aircraft is worth differing amounts and it is worth exactly what the owner is prepared to decide to pass on the keys for "no more and no less" , of course there is the possibility that the prospective purchaser may not agree with the price a vendor is asking, its his prerogative and at this point he can simply walk away, so of course can the vendor! Each to his own. Our environment really is not akin to the world of Arfer Daley secondhand cars and never will be. Point 2 : There may of course be a number extraneous circumstances resulting in an alleged bargain, a prospective purchaser chancing his hand and offering daft and silly amounts for the aircraft for example, a high hour tired engine and or airframe, previous aircraft damage or accident, a model less desirable than a current one, VP Prop, Tri Gear - Mono, perhaps the owner having a run of bad luck financially or medically and having to sell within a short period of time, etc etc there are many reasons! As for missing a cheap aircraft, well if its missed its gone, vamoose. Maybe another one will turn up maybe it wont. Referring to point 2 there are many reasons an aircraft may appear to be cheap or cheaper than others. People that desire cheap aircraft are usually the ones that have very little knowledge of the time effort and ability required to build, maintain or indeed to refurbish a Europa aircraft. As we all know these are the same owners that the LAA are most concerned about as they simply don't understand the fuel systems, the operation and the required maintenance of our aircraft, because they did not build or work on it extensively, there have of course been several well documented accidents to date to prove it. These regrettably are the same group looking and searching for that elusive "bargain" and IMHO do not understand either the aircraft or etiquette and furthermore our own close knit Europa owning community! And to conclude: A Rolls Royce is clearly worth more than a VW Golf (both made by same company) but both still a motor car! I am still searching for a 2 year old Rolls Ghost for =A310,000 "I am not holding my breath though" and hope I dont find one with differing chassis numbers at both ends or one that has been in a total loss accident. rgds to you all David Joyce The other one :-) Sent to you from David Joyce From: "Trevpond@aol.com" To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2013, 12:13 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa For Sale To Build a 914 Trigear, include a very good panel with a customised interior will cost =A360,000 for the bits! I know of two being built at the moment that will cost around =A3100,000 finished. I would remind you Guys about a Europa that was recently put on sale and the owner was smothered in dreamers and others looking for free flights who thought they could buy the aircraft for =A320,000. The syndicates are the best, 5 lads all looking for a flight for free!! I agree that some of the old Classics were cheap to build, were fairly basic with a 912 engine and gave amazing performance and so much pleasure to their owners, but a Europa these days costs three times as much to build. Trev G-LINN In a message dated 16/04/2013 11:51:26 GMT Daylight Time, alancarteresq@onetel.net writes: Hi Roland. It is hard from a photo, but the fit of the inspection panels looks neat. i have seen some untidy ones, and that's gives a little clue as to the build, it has a air vent on the fin, what,s this for,? A fixed trim tab on the aileron, so needs a little tweaking. Would like to see the Instrument Panel, Please post it on the forum,?? Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398700#398700 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L="http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution" rel="nofollow" target="_blan= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:52 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Aileron setup From: "Richard Wheelwright" Bud Thank you for your very Knowledgeable reply. I have now sorted out the problem. Well I say problem it was Myself that was more the problem and not the Aircraft. In the end it was simply the Aileron stop in the wings. I set up exactly as you have described. When I rigged the wings, both Ailerons where in exactly neutral. All looking good. Checking the deflection with the stick the STBD Aileron mass balance was hitting the wing surface on the down movement. This is what I was doing wrong I was altering the long push rod QD in the wing root to try to correct the problem. After many attempts I discovered this does not work!!!! After your setup description, I drew the logic out on a piece of paper and thought on simple term as to why and how to correct the mass balance hitting the wing surface. ( The ailerons are going down too far) It is quite simple, Just Lengthen the Fuselage short link rod to the QD bracket to plush the Port wing stop closer to the stop, as this stops the STBD Aileron going down too far and hitting the wing skin. This took a few attempts but I got it in the end. Now Both Ailerons are slightly up instead of neutral. I correct this by small adjustments on the aileron link rod (as I had nearly 25 degrees up) Once Checked again I managed to get about 24.3 on both and 20 degrees down, these are within the limits and I'm a happy builder again One point it will make is to use a bubble inclomiter ( The warp drive propeller incloniter is perfect for the job) As far as the digital inclomiter. I fond a better use for it as my new workbench table leg. Thank you far all the PM messages too, One builder had put together a few notes, this made setup much easier. Thank you Again far every ones help -------- Richard Wheelwright G-IRPW 90% finished with that 90% to Finish Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398912#398912 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.