Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:34 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Frans Veldman)
2. 02:40 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (ploucandco)
3. 04:48 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Karl Heindl)
4. 05:32 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Roland)
5. 06:51 AM - Monowheel bits (roddyeuropa@aol.com)
6. 01:38 PM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (rampil)
7. 03:06 PM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Bud Yerly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop |
On 06/10/2013 04:22 AM, N6ZY wrote:
> Are my impressions correct, and how does the performance, including
> top speed, compare? I should add that i am based in the US, and that
> I am looking at a two blade prop. I would appreciate any advice
> based on real experience.
I have a 914 with a two blade Woodcomp prop with extra twist. I'm very
happy with the prop. The pitch range is perfect for all power settings,
speeds and altitudes.
My tri gear Europa is a real performer. With the recent trip to the
north cape, flying in formation with two other 914 Europa's, I had the
lowest manifold pressure and lowest fuel consumption, despite having the
highest weight on board (with 2 POB where the others were flying solo).
In economy cruise I can manage 13 liters per hour of fuel with a speed
of 110 knots. Top speed with WOT is close to Vne.
I hasten to say that I have made many aerodynamic changes, like an
optimized cooling system, wing root fairings, mylar strips on all
control surface gaps, etc. so it is difficult to say how much is
contributed by just the prop. I had this configuration from the first
flight so I can't judge the invidual effects.
BTW I choosed a two blade prop because it has one leading edge less,
lower skin drag and lower weight, and at least theoretically it should
give better cruise performance than a three blade prop. But of course
the two blade prop feels a bit more "rough" due to the inherent
vibrations of such a prop. But if I had to buy a new prop I would
probably buy the same one.
There are not many Europa's with two blade props, so you might find my
experience interesting.
With 230 hours, I only had one broken wire inside the spinner,
resoldered it myself and changed the routing somewhat to minimize
movements due to centrifugal forces, no further problems.
I do not use the controller that came with the prop, but use the
controller from Mark Burton.
Frans
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop |
Hello Jerry,
I have had an airmaster and a woodcomp high twist on my monowheel europa. Both
were 3 blades props.
I believe that both are good props but I am happy to have my airmaster back now.
If you are using the woodcomp, the smartavionics controller is the preferred option.
Airmaster
+ hub quality and robustness
+ very nice metal spinner
+ controller straigthforward to use
+ no maintenance solution (except for the brushes)
+ support, fast and efficient
+ extremely easy to assemble
- no high twist blades for cooling
- expensive
Woodcomp
+ high twist so better cooling (didn't see relevant improvements in speed)
+ delivered with blades cover
+ look of the blades
+ low noise blades
- hub build quality
- complexity of the assembly of the hub (major minus if you get the prop delivered
in different pieces)
- composite spinner
- support, 1 man show in CZ
- overall weight (extremely noticable with 3 blades prop)
- need a 3rd party controller to have a robust solution
If you are based in the US, I would think twice to use a woodcomp. Airmaster has
a local dealer (your preferred Europa US dealer :-) and it just works out of
the box with no required maintenance.
The only major issue with the airmaster is that you will need to have cowling adjustements
to ensure proper cooling with the 914.
Jacques.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402376#402376
Message 3
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| Subject: | Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop |
Hi Jerry=2C
I agree with most that was said by Frans and Jaques. I just wanted to add t
hat I was the first one with the Woodcomp 3000/2W this side of the pond=2C
and the first on a Europa.It was shipped in one piece=2C so installation wa
s easy. I had terrible support problems because I couldn't get the Woodcomp
controller to work properly. I returned it for a refund and switched to th
e Smartavionics controller. I had a couple of issues with that as well=2C b
ut a software upgrade fixed that.My reason for choosing this prop=2C becaus
e I wanted a feathering 2-blade for the motorglider=2C and the price was ri
ght. Another choice could have been a Hoffmann=2C at 4 times the price and
twice the weight.I had 3 (three) motor failures: one in flight=2C one proba
bly on the ground=2C and a third=2C which I now carried as a spare=2C was t
otally corroded. At least the pitch control motors used on my prop are not
designed for aviation use. I have no idea what motors they use for the Airm
aster.Because of my experience I don't really trust electric pitch control
on any make and tend to make my takeoff in manual. The biggest load on the
motor is at high rpm and a failure in the takeoff /climb phase is not desir
able. I assume that you have a trigear=2C because the longer 2-blade jobs a
re not suitable for a mono. Even the trigear needs to have the nosegear rai
sed a couple of inches.Support from the Canadian and US agents is completel
y useless=2C and support from the factory ranges from excellent to very slo
w=2C depending on whether the only English speaker is present or on a sales
trip.But in general=2C there is no need for immediate support=2C unless yo
u have some kind of failure away from home (as happened to me). This prop s
eemed to vibrate quite a bit at first=2C but after balancing the carbs agai
n=2C it was just as smooth as the Airmaster I was using. In fact I prefer t
he feel and sound of the Woodcomp. Since I smashed the blades in a forced l
anding on a farm field I have reverted back to the ground adjustable Warp D
rive=2C which is also an excellent prop. When I have the money I will get t
he Woodcomp refurbished by the factory.
Karl
> Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
> From: jffisher@gmail.com
> Date: Sun=2C 9 Jun 2013 19:22:35 -0700
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
>
> I am getting close to having to select an electric constant speed feather
ing prop for my 914-powered Europa XS Trigear. The choice seems to be betw
een the Woodcomp and the Airmaster. Does anyone have flight experience of
both=2C to provide a comparison?
>
> My initial impression is that the Airmaster has a good reputation=2C but
that the available blades do not have sufficient twist near the root to off
er optimum performance. Woodcomp blades have the twist=2C but I have read
comments that their after sales service is lacking=2C and there has been at
least on in-flight failure.
>
> Are my impressions correct=2C and how does the performance=2C including t
op speed=2C compare? I should add that i am based in the US=2C and that I
am looking at a two blade prop. I would appreciate any advice based on rea
l experience. Thanks
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402363#402363
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop |
Hi,
needless to say that I cannot compete to Frans' numbers. My bird does 110 KIAS
at 8.500 ft (XS Trigear, Rotax 914 with no modifications except the factory speed
mods) at a fuelburn of 17,5 litres.
I have the Airmaster 3-blade and am satisfied with it. I had no issues in about
two years flying and my impression is, that it's a robust and trouble free installation.
When asking Martin @ Airmaster I always (two times) got a rapid reply.
I have to admit, that I always tend to the conventional since I'm no friend of
experiments in the aviation sector in spite of maybe losing a few knots ;-).
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS Trigear 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402388#402388
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After 9 years of flying, its time to replace my monowheel rubber block (red
) and dampers. With many monowheel to tri conversions, I was wondering if a
nyone has these lying around spare? Happy to pay a fair price for them.
Thanks
Roddy Kesteton
G-IKRK (based Andrewsfield, EGSL
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop |
Just for the sake of another data point I will add my two cents.
I have been flying with my Airmaster constant speed prop for close to nine years.
Early in its life the prop spinner cracked, twice, and I TIG repaired it twice,
then Martin revised the spinner and there have been no further issues. I keep
up with the suggested maintenance. I see no advantave to the Woodcomp
alternative. The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port airflow is not a
factor in a 912s application.
As for performance quotations, I think they are pretty meaningless without
data on weight, density altitude, manifold pressure, RPM, etc.
In my aircraft, at a DA of 3000', GW of 1200#, and 70% power I see a reliable
118kts TAS with about 4.1 gph. In its current configuration, I don't have enough
data points to state a performance at 8000' which is possibly where best TAS
might be for the 912s.
Your mile will vary!
Cheers,
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402424#402424
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop |
Jerry,
Full disclosure here, as I am an Airmaster Dealer here in the States:
Woodcomp, Whirlwind and the AP420 are slightly faster at altitudes above
8500 MSL than the three blade AP332.
The Airmaster AP332 with Warp Drive Blades is what most Europa's have.
We are an older kit and we grew with Airmaster, so for the most part,
those of us with six or more years have had the props as they fit like a
glove and our cowl shape is made for their spinner. Other than brushes
we re-grease annually on inspections. The Warp Drive is flat bottomed
and has about 16 degrees of pitch and a long club section at the base.
This cuts back efficiency a bit. A very tough prop, but very easy to
fix dings, basically bulletproof. It is very quiet, even at takeoff
setting of 5750 RPM. Stay away from the Warp Drive tapered blade
period. All my performance problems have been a result of the tapered
blade. Most of the other manufacturers boast they are faster than the
Airmaster but they are comparing their blade to the narrow chord blade
which was heavily sold from the early 90s to 2002. The inertia was
lower for the narrow chord and frankly it was sold to prevent
overstressing the Rotax starter sprag clutch. The wide chord is at the
max inertia for the Rotax at 67 inches, but I don't care as we need a 64
inch. If it has been working for over ten years, I'll go with
performance every time. I won't sell another narrow chord blade.
Whirlwind is hydraulic and I just love hydraulic props, but they leak
and for any service they have to go back to the manufacturer. Keep a
spare fixed prop. The blades have great twist and make a wooshing sound
at full power, they are smooth and reliable. You must use an
aftermarket governor (speed controller) and installation also includes a
wonky setup to lock in the cable and very expensive Rotax oil line set
for the governor hookup. They are very light and if struck the blades
are totaled. Great folks and good support. They will paint to suit
your colors. It is the only other prop I recommend.
Woodcomp two blade is good but reliability and quick service are hit and
miss. Like the Whirlwind it has the larger twist and is fairly fast at
altitude. We don't see much difference in climb. Most folks see a
small difference in climb in favor of the Woodcomp over the AP332 and
that is mostly MP and RPM fine pitch limit. Aircraft weights, and drag
vary so I don't hold much stock unless tested on the same aircraft and
conditions. Theoretically there should be no difference in climb.
The Woodcomp three blade is nice looking, but has the same reliability
problem. And you have to buy an after market controller for
reliability. Duh, they have been doing this long enough to get their
stuff together. In their defense, I believe part of the reliability is
installation and testing at the factory. A shame really, it is a nice
looking blade.
Airmaster AP 4 series can be a two or three blade.
It has many choices of blades. I personally like the Whirwind blades on
the AP420 series for performance, Sensenich for the tapered tip and
lower noise on the 430. The AP430 is quieter and pulls very strong. A
real good climber and about 10 knots faster than the Warp Drive. Kiev,
and Bolly blades are also available, but they are very light blades and
do not hold up as well as the WD in grass/sandy environments.
Sensenich, and Whirlwind have a softer leading edge, so for rough or
dirty fields or high grass expect to do maintenance...
MT makes a very good prop also. They are reliable, but pricey and the
language barrier is frustrating. They are also a fast prop, but you
will have to sell a child to own one.
One other prop is the Hoffman, they are wood/glass and have an electric
drive, but the only ones I am familiar with are the mechanical push pull
lever ones used on the Ximango MG. I have sold Airmasters to those who
have inquired with that plane... They are out of Germany also.
As I said on my website. I have never been stuck out with the
Airmaster. With a 9 volt battery, I can manually set a pitch to get
home even with panel electrical failure.
You can mow the grass with the Warp Drive blade (I have done it, grass
stains everywhere!) I have flown my Europa with both the two blade
AP420 and the AP332. The 420 performs a bit better at altitude, is
easier to get the cowl off, lighter by about 4-5 pounds, but is a bit
noisier outside and in. Not a lot of noise on the 64 inch. Folks at
the airport know when I have the two blade on. On the longer AP420
props I've tested the 420 is awesome at 70 inches, ground clearance is
unacceptable for the Europa but great on the Rans S-6 and the float
planes. We actually pulled a float equipped S-6 past redline with a
912S at 5500 RPM and 26 inches of MP.
I like things reliable (so remind me why I have a 914?) and my bang for
the buck was the Airmaster. In 6 years as the dealer, I just don't get
problems or call backs. I have only had to send them to the factory for
prop strikes (at my insistence as I can't magneflux for hub cracks).
Normally, guys just plug and play them and I get a call after six plus
years asking how to fix rock dings. ($75-170 per blade for a rebuild
and repaint depending on damage). The biggest complaint, Warp Drive
blades are all black and Sensenich is White, with red tips, and black on
the back only.
Remember, each plane is different. Apples and oranges is the normal
comparison we owners and dealers get. I get to see many prop requests
and I have had two Woodcomp owners change to the Airmaster out of
frustration with reliability. I have never had an Airmaster returned.
I have changed out the narrow chord blades though on the AP332 for wide
chord.
I like plug and play, and that is what it is on the Europa XS or Classic
with either the AP332 or 420/430 series.
Bud Yerly
US Airmaster Dealer
----- Original Message -----
From: N6ZY<mailto:jffisher@gmail.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 10:22 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
<jffisher@gmail.com<mailto:jffisher@gmail.com>>
I am getting close to having to select an electric constant speed
feathering prop for my 914-powered Europa XS Trigear. The choice seems
to be between the Woodcomp and the Airmaster. Does anyone have flight
experience of both, to provide a comparison?
My initial impression is that the Airmaster has a good reputation, but
that the available blades do not have sufficient twist near the root to
offer optimum performance. Woodcomp blades have the twist, but I have
read comments that their after sales service is lacking, and there has
been at least on in-flight failure.
Are my impressions correct, and how does the performance, including
top speed, compare? I should add that i am based in the US, and that I
am looking at a two blade prop. I would appreciate any advice based on
real experience. Thanks
Jerry
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avigator?Europa-List>
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