Europa-List Digest Archive

Tue 06/11/13


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:11 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Guerner Remi)
     2. 01:27 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Max Cointe (Free))
     3. 01:33 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Max Cointe (Free))
     4. 02:13 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     5. 06:40 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Roland)
     6. 07:58 AM - Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (N6ZY)
     7. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
     8. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     9. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Paul McAllister)
    10. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Jeremy Fisher)
    11. 12:40 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (William Daniell)
    12. 02:05 PM - FW: Wickenby Wings & Wheels (EGNW) (Bob Harrison)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:11:56 AM PST US
    From: Guerner Remi <air.guerner@orange.fr>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    <<<<The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port airflow is not a factor in a 912s application.>>>>> Hi Ira, I have 630 hours on my Airmaster AP332/WarpDrive and I am very happy with the reliability and performance of this prop. But the cooling problem on the ground with the WarpDrive blades is a big inconvenience, with any engine. All Europas I know, fitted with the WarpDrive prop, fixed or variable pitch, even with the 80 HP 912 have this ground cooling problem as soon as they have to wait more than a few minutes at the holding point in hot weather. With the existing Europa XS cowl, I believe the only solution would be to have wider blades at the root and higher twist, as offered by Woodcomp. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS Monowheel, 912ULS, 1014 hours.


    Message 2


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    Time: 01:27:58 AM PST US
    From: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe@free.fr>
    Subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    Bud, I have an AP332 on my XS and a MT Propeller on my MCR4S both on a 912S. Any comparison from yours? BTW has anyone fitted an MTV-7A on an XS As a user/maintainer above my subjective coments: MTV-7A: smoother to use ( no predefined pitch) ' AP332 : easier to use (predefined pitch, reproducible easily on every flight) MTV-7A: nice design, nice efficiency in cruise: 120Kt @4800RPM 3000FT and 17 l/h ' AP332: square design, very effective at take-off (seems more than MTV-7A) 118 Kt @5000RPM 3000FT and 19 l/h MTV-7A: TCO more expensive (overall @1800 hours or 6 years) ' Max Cointe <mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 juin 2013 00:06 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop Jerry, Full disclosure here, as I am an Airmaster Dealer here in the States:


    Message 3


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    Time: 01:33:13 AM PST US
    From: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe@free.fr>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    Fully agree, temp on ground is an issue for me (even if our country Auxerre is not as hot as Remi's one). No such problem with the large blades of the MTV-7A (must admit that the cowl looks also better designed on the MCR). Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Guerner Remi Envoy: mardi 11 juin 2013 10:11 : Europa-List Digest Server Objet: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop <<<<The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port airflow is not a factor in a 912s application.>>>>>


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:13:12 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    It would be worth researching exhaust extraction. I have it on my Lycoming (pusher Long EZ) and it works=0AWarm day, full throttle on the ground for 1 0 minutes, throttle back and it cools down from near red line..=0AGraham=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Guerner Remi <air.guerner@o range.fr>=0ATo: Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list@matronics.com> =0ASe nt: Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 9:11=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Air uerner@orange.fr>=0A=0A<<<<The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port a irflow is not a =0Afactor in a 912s application.>>>>>=0A=0AHi Ira,=0AI have 630 hours on my Airmaster AP332/WarpDrive and I am very happy with the rel iability and performance of this prop. But the cooling problem on the groun d with the WarpDrive blades is a big inconvenience, with any engine. All Eu ropas I know, fitted with the WarpDrive prop, fixed or variable pitch, even with the 80 HP 912 have this ground cooling problem as soon as they have t o wait more than a few minutes at the holding point in hot weather. With th e existing Europa XS cowl, I believe the only- solution would be to have wider blades at the root and higher twist, as offered by Woodcomp. =0ARegar ds=0ARemi Guerner=0AF-PGKL, XS Monowheel, 912ULS, 1014 hours.=0A- =0A=0A_ -======================== ==============


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:40:36 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    From: "Roland" <schmidtroland@web.de>
    Cooling on the ground is indeed an issue for me, too. At the AERO in Friedrichshafen (OAT around 25C) the only way to prevent the engine from overheating after waiting 15 minutes at the parking position at idle and a long taxi was to place myself a few meters behind a Cirrus at the holding position which performed a run up. That kept the CHT's well below redline, but there isn't always a Cirrus in front of me :-) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402480#402480


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:58:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    From: "N6ZY" <jffisher@gmail.com>
    Thanks to everyone who answered my original post, there was a lot of information there. My end conclusion was much as when I posted, that the Woodcomp prop blades are really good, but the combination of poor quality control and lack of US support makes the Airmaster a better bet for me. I dismissed the MT prop option as being expensive, and I know from previous experience that MT are not always responsive and they are not troubled by excessive humility! So I phoned Martin at Airmaster yesterday and we discussed the options for 20 minutes. He gets his blades from various suppliers, and basically agrees that it would be much better if he had blades with more twist in them. He is looking into a number of options. This includes using Whirlwind blades; although they are a competitor, they are now willing to supply him. Another option is blades from either Helix or Neuform in Germany. Finally he can use any of the Sensenich blades. He suggested that I phone the various blade manufacturers to see what they have for my application. The other question we discussed was the prop diameter. I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres? I am a Brit living in the US) and my bad landings. That would open up the number of blade options. I know that Frans has increased his clearance using some form of nose gear spacer, but I would rather keep it simple if I can. In addition using a 3 blade prop may make the use of smaller diameter blades equivalent to larger 2 blades. My end result is that I will delay the blade selection as long as possible, but will go with the Airmaster prop, probably with 3 blades, and possibly with Whirlwind blades. They appear from their website to be well shaped with adequate blade twist. Any reactions to the use of a larger diameter prop would be appreciated. Thanks again for the interest and inputs. Jerry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402499#402499


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:42:52 AM PST US
    From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    Hi Jerry, You've stimulated an interesting thread and received some high quality feedback. My only contribution is to advise you to look carefully at the Maximum moment of inertia of the combined prop and VP unit if you are seriously considering fitting a larger diameter Prop. Rotax advise a maximum of 6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money). You might wish to discuss this with Martin before making a final decision. Atb Nigel On 11/06/2013 15:58, N6ZY wrote: > Snip ....... > > > The other question we discussed was the prop diameter. I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres? .................. > > Jerry > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:33:02 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    Good advice Nigel=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 16:42=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Jerry,=0A =0AYou=99ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some high =0A quality=0A feedback.=0AMy only contribution is to advise you to look carefully at the Maximum moment of inertia of the combined prop and VP unit if you are seriously considering fitting a larger diameter Pro p. =0ARotax advise a maximum of 6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money). =0AYou might wish to discuss this with Martin before making a final decisio n.=0A=C2-=0AAtb=0A=C2-Nigel =0A =0AOn 11/06/2013 15:58, N6ZY wrote:=0A =0ASnip ....... The other question we discussed was the prop diameter. I w ill fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diamete r prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres? =========================0A =======================


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:59:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
    FWIW the new Whirlwind blades are hollow CF and are amazingly light On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:32 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON < grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Good advice Nigel > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 16:42 > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop > > Hi Jerry, > > You=92ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some high quality > feedback. > My only contribution is to advise you to look carefully at the Maximum > moment of inertia of the combined prop and VP unit if you are seriously > considering fitting a larger diameter Prop. > Rotax advise a maximum of 6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money). > You might wish to discuss this with Martin before making a final decision . > > Atb > > Nigel >


    Message 10


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    Time: 12:06:35 PM PST US
    From: Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    Thanks. However the Whirlwind story is confusing. Effectively there are now two Whirlwind companies, the original for fixed pitch props and a spin-off for constant speed. I think that Martin at Airmaster was referring to the blades from the hydraulic constant speed outfit. The fixed pitch company also has new carbon fiber blades, but I think that they are 70", which is a bit much. I will follow up. And yes Nigel, thanks, you are right, I do need to check the inertia data. This has turned out to be a much more complex question than I originally understood, but it does make quite a difference in aircraft performance and reliability. Jerry On Jun 11, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > FWIW the new Whirlwind blades are hollow CF and are amazingly light > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:32 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Good advice Nigel > Graham > > > From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 16:42 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop > > Hi Jerry, > > You=92ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some high quality feedback. > My only contribution is to advise you to look carefully at the Maximum moment of inertia of the combined prop and VP unit if you are seriously considering fitting a larger diameter Prop. > Rotax advise a maximum of 6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money). > You might wish to discuss this with Martin before making a final decision. > > Atb > > Nigel > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:40:29 PM PST US
    From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
    Jerry Thanks for the question. I for one would appreciate an update - as and when possible. I am about (well within the next 12 months haha) to go through the same decision. Yours Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N6ZY Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 09:58 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop Thanks to everyone who answered my original post, there was a lot of information there. My end conclusion was much as when I posted, that the Woodcomp prop blades are really good, but the combination of poor quality control and lack of US support makes the Airmaster a better bet for me. I dismissed the MT prop option as being expensive, and I know from previous experience that MT are not always responsive and they are not troubled by excessive humility! So I phoned Martin at Airmaster yesterday and we discussed the options for 20 minutes. He gets his blades from various suppliers, and basically agrees that it would be much better if he had blades with more twist in them. He is looking into a number of options. This includes using Whirlwind blades; although they are a competitor, they are now willing to supply him. Another option is blades from either Helix or Neuform in Germany. Finally he can use any of the Sensenich blades. He suggested that I phone the various blade manufacturers to see what they have for my application. The other question we discussed was the prop diameter. I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres? I am a Brit living in the US) and my bad landings. That would open up the number of blade options. I know that Frans has increased his clearance using some form of nose gear spacer, but I would rather keep it simple if I can. In addition using a 3 blade prop may make the use of smaller diameter blades equivalent to larger 2 blades. My end result is that I will delay the blade selection as long as possible, but will go with the Airmaster prop, probably with 3 blades, and possibly with Whirlwind blades. They appear from their website to be well shaped with adequate blade twist. Any reactions to the use of a larger diameter prop would be appreciated. Thanks again for the interest and inputs. Jerry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402499#402499


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:05:02 PM PST US
    From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net>
    Subject: FW: Wickenby Wings & Wheels (EGNW)
    Repeat........... It=99s this weekend! I will have about 50 litres of MoGas and 25 ltr drums to fetch more if needed but last year I had no takers . Visit me in my caravan on the main gate . We still have 160 Dinner dance tickets available You can still order tickets on line and have them left at the gate with me but we are fast reaching the deadline on Dance tickets for the catering contractor. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Hi! All , No apologies for the =9CPLUG!=9Das follows:- The Wickenby Wings and Wheels Air show is on 15th and 16th June and promises to be a very good event to attend with possible showings of Vulcan, Red Bull, and BBMF. Throughout the weekend. With it being on Father=99s day weekend what better excuse that a day with =9CBig Boy=99s Toys=9D than Aeroplanes. There will be lots of side stalls and attractions for kids and static aircraft, 4x4 off roading, vintage vehicles and a Fun of the Forties two course Dinner Dance with live music by Swingtime Jazz Band and bar in a Marquee. Aircrew Camping is permitted . Tickets for the event are available on the website www.wickenbyairfield.com/www currently still at the special offer price of =C2=A310 for adults & =C2=A35 for children for a single ticket or =C2=A315 & =C2=A37 for the weekend saver tickets. Also available on line are tickets for the Fun of the Forties Dinner Dance at =C2=A330 for a two course meal, 40s disco & live swing band =9CSwingtime=9D, along with a sunset aerobatic display from the Swip Duo complete with pyrotechnics. If you want to stay over for the whole weekend there are still spaces available on our campsite at the very reasonable price of =C2=A315 for the weekend. You can also get your tickets by contacting Ann Law direct at alaw444@aol.com. See PR attachments above.




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