---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/13/13: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:56 AM - Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor (Brian Davies) 2. 02:59 AM - Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor (philip george) 3. 04:13 AM - Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor (richard) 4. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Bud Yerly) 5. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop (Bud Yerly) 6. 03:08 PM - Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor (Rowland Carson) 7. 03:14 PM - Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor (Rowland Carson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:57 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor Rowland, That is where I mounted my sensor. I have not identified any disadvantages. Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 13 June 2013 06:11 Subject: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor --> I've not yet started the firewall-forward work, but am planning the fuel system of my 912S installation as a whole while working on the fuselage parts of it. I'm intending to install a UMA fuel pressure sensor, and for it to be most useful, it seems good to have it as close to the carburettors as possible. The manual shows the fuel line coming from the mechanical pump first to the starboard carb, then the port carb and finally exiting via the restrictor to the return line, so the choices for positioning a pressure sensor takeoff tee are (a) between pump & stbd carb, (b) between the 2 carbs, and (c) between the port carb and the restrictor. I notice in the current Kitplanes a picture of several engine-bay sensors mounted on the firewall and the caption says: "Sensors for (left to right) oil pressure, manifold pressure, and fuel pressure should be mounted remotely on the firewall." Presumably this recommendation is to isolate them from engine vibration & heat. However, without adding a long extra piece of piping, the only one of the 3 choices above that allows a firewall mount is (c) - between the port carb and the restrictor. Does anyone see a problem with this proposed arrangement? If I'm barking up the wrong tree, where have others mounted fuel pressure sensors? in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:54 AM PST US From: philip george Subject: RE: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor Rowland Hi why not have a purpose made fuel manifold =2C mounted between and below bot h carbs with ports drilled for various takeoffs. So you can bring the fuel in at the front with outlets to carbs left and right the return line at t he top and the fuel pressure sensor mounted at the bottom . Eliminating the tee pieces for a really neat job. The manifold could be made from a bloc k of aluminium ect. Bar stock 30mm dia. and machined on the lathe. Best regards Philip George > From: rowlandcarson@gmail.com > Subject: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor > Date: Thu=2C 13 Jun 2013 06:10:48 +0100 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > m> > > I've not yet started the firewall-forward work=2C but am planning the fue l system of my 912S installation as a whole while working on the fuselage p arts of it. > > I'm intending to install a UMA fuel pressure sensor=2C and for it to be m ost useful=2C it seems good to have it as close to the carburettors as poss ible. > > The manual shows the fuel line coming from the mechanical pump first to t he starboard carb=2C then the port carb and finally exiting via the restric tor to the return line=2C so the choices for positioning a pressure sensor takeoff tee are (a) between pump & stbd carb=2C (b) between the 2 carbs=2C and (c) between the port carb and the restrictor. > > I notice in the current Kitplanes a picture of several engine-bay sensors mounted on the firewall and the caption says: > > "Sensors for (left to right) oil pressure=2C manifold pressure=2C and fue l pressure should be mounted remotely on the firewall." > > Presumably this recommendation is to isolate them from engine vibration & heat. However=2C without adding a long extra piece of piping=2C the only o ne of the 3 choices above that allows a firewall mount is (c) - between the port carb and the restrictor. > > Does anyone see a problem with this proposed arrangement? > > If I'm barking up the wrong tree=2C where have others mounted fuel pressu re sensors? > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:55 AM PST US From: "richard" Subject: Re: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor Hi Rowland Philip suggests making a fuel manifold, he probably didn't know that new rotax engines are supplied with just such a manifold, contact Conair for a price also look at the latest installation drawings for a picture. For what its worth I modified the fuel pipe runs, dispensing with the rubber pipes in favour of proper aircraft aluminium see Mod No 13304 Best wishes Richard day, June 13, 2013 10:59 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor Rowland Hi why not have a purpose made fuel manifold , mounted between and below both carbs with ports drilled for various takeoffs. So you can bring the fuel in at the front with outlets to carbs left and right the return line at the top and the fuel pressure sensor mounted at the bottom . Eliminating the tee pieces for a really neat job. The manifold could be made from a block of aluminium ect. Bar stock 30mm dia. and machined on the lathe. Best regards Philip George > From: rowlandcarson@gmail.com > Subject: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor > Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 06:10:48 +0100 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > I've not yet started the firewall-forward work, but am planning the fuel system of my 912S installation as a whole while working on the fuselage parts of it. > > I'm intending to install a UMA fuel pressure sensor, and for it to be most useful, it seems good to have it as close to the carburettors as possible. > > The manual shows the fuel line coming from the mechanical pump first to the starboard carb, then the port carb and finally exiting via the restrictor to the return line, so the choices for positioning a pressure sensor takeoff tee are (a) between pump & stbd carb, (b) between the 2 carbs, and (c) between the port carb and the restrictor. > > I notice in the current Kitplanes a picture of several engine-bay sensors mounted on the firewall and the caption says: > > "Sensors for (left to right) oil pressure, manifold pressure, and fuel pressure should be mounted remotely on the firewall." > > Presumably this recommendation is to isolate them from engine vibration & heat. However, without adding a long extra piece of piping, the only one of the 3 choices above that allows a firewall mount is (c) - between the port carb and the restrictor. > > Does anyone see a problem with this proposed arrangement? > > If I'm barking up the wrong tree, where have others mounted fuel pressure sensors? > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:24 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop Jerry, Having been the US Dealer now for nearly six years and I have put blades on everything from Rans, Vans, Kitfox, Highlander, Zenith, Ximango, and every other in between using the Rotax 912, 912S and 914. The best blade is more of a decision on how you want to fly and how much maintenance you want to do. Each prop manufacturer tries to optimize his prop for the 912S as it is the most common engine in the experimental fleet. Back to my previous post, a light prop blade is great until you hit something, fly through rain, sand and the like which leave you grounded for months, tough blades last longer but are heavier and weight is a penalty.... As the US Dealer for Airmaster and Europa, I test blades for Martin from time to time for the Europa and other planes. Again, we have found the best blades to be Whirlwind for speed, WD for toughness, Sensenich in between. I don't do Bolly or Kiev. Max length for any WD is 67 inches or the prop just makes noise, and 64 inch is tollerable provided the blade has a wider tip. Same for Whirlwind. Sensenich is better on float planes at 68 to 70 inches due to the tip shape, twist and chord length. As for length of the prop, I have tried a number. Don't get into that trap of longer is always better. Look at your engine and torque or prop power curve. The Rotax only turns at 2050 at cruise prop speed. So one would think I need a longer prop, but to absorb the torque it would need a narrower blade, have less area, and be twisted in a way where it is stalled at some speeds or altitudes... The Sensenich doesn't really perform (swept tip) until over 68 inches any better than the others because the sweep of the tip lowers the pull from the tip (but it looks cool). The Whirlwind is only average at the longer blade lengths but is great at the short lengths due to the wide tip and generous mid chord. Trust me, the 64-68 inch WD narrow chord sucks on the Europa and anything else. Max length is 67 inches for the wider chord blades and works fine for any of the 912S and 914 engines. I attain as much speed with my 64 as a 67, on the Fascination or Europa, why, the blade is at a higher angle and more of my prop is pulling due to the twist angle at our speed range (over 130 KIAS). The 67 out accellerates from 70-100 the short blade is all that I have seen. We have seen many claims about cooling, twist and static thrust. Frankly the 64 inch for a 914 is the min diameter and 67 is the max because of engine torque, or lack of it. The actual performance difference is minimal. Ground clearance takes care of the prop ding problem. The FAA mandates a min clearance and our Europa is at the min clearance now. I too like the KISS principle. I prefer to have folks fly, not tinker, but that is the choice of each builder. Call or email me anytime, and I can discuss further what we have seen as a dealer... Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: N6ZY To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:58 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop > Thanks to everyone who answered my original post, there was a lot of information there. My end conclusion was much as when I posted, that the Woodcomp prop blades are really good, but the combination of poor quality control and lack of US support makes the Airmaster a better bet for me. I dismissed the MT prop option as being expensive, and I know from previous experience that MT are not always responsive and they are not troubled by excessive humility! So I phoned Martin at Airmaster yesterday and we discussed the options for 20 minutes. He gets his blades from various suppliers, and basically agrees that it would be much better if he had blades with more twist in them. He is looking into a number of options. This includes using Whirlwind blades; although they are a competitor, they are now willing to supply him. Another option is blades from either Helix or Neuform in Germany. Finally he can use any of the Sensenich blades. He suggested that I phone the various blade manufacturers to see what they have for my application. The other question we discussed was the prop diameter. I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres? I am a Brit living in the US) and my bad landings. That would open up the number of blade options. I know that Frans has increased his clearance using some form of nose gear spacer, but I would rather keep it simple if I can. In addition using a 3 blade prop may make the use of smaller diameter blades equivalent to larger 2 blades. My end result is that I will delay the blade selection as long as possible, but will go with the Airmaster prop, probably with 3 blades, and possibly with Whirlwind blades. They appear from their website to be well shaped with adequate blade twist. Any reactions to the use of a larger diameter prop would be appreciated. Thanks again for the interest and inputs. Jerry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402499#402499 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:13 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop Remi, I am distressed that you are still having cooling issues. If you did all I described in the cooling 101 article printed in the Europa Flyer, it should cool handily. I can operate for 25 minutes on the ground and not hit 275F on a 90F day. The XS cowl is not optimal, but the root width is the same with my 332 as yours. The mono exit from your engine compartment is probably only an inch wide, but if your ducting is sealed you should be able to cool very well in Europe. I gave Martin my ideas for a root extension for the ferrule on the WD blade, as I just don't have time to make one up. It basically is an extension to the blade and a riveted airfoil shape to the spinner similar to the new blades on the C130J and other turboprop engine/prop combinations. That will help a breeze close in to the cowl, but is intended for cruise performance increase. Check your ducting carefully. If you did not see my changes for the XS cowl, refer to my website or Airmaster's website (Europa Application) for download. Bud Yerly www.customflightcreations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Guerner Remi To: Europa-List Digest Server Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:11 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop > <<<>>>> Hi Ira, I have 630 hours on my Airmaster AP332/WarpDrive and I am very happy with the reliability and performance of this prop. But the cooling problem on the ground with the WarpDrive blades is a big inconvenience, with any engine. All Europas I know, fitted with the WarpDrive prop, fixed or variable pitch, even with the 80 HP 912 have this ground cooling problem as soon as they have to wait more than a few minutes at the holding point in hot weather. With the existing Europa XS cowl, I believe the only solution would be to have wider blades at the root and higher twist, as offered by Woodcomp. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS Monowheel, 912ULS, 1014 hours. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor From: Rowland Carson On 13 Jun 2013, at 10:59, philip george wrote: > why not have a purpose made fuel manifold , mounted between and below both carbs with ports drilled for various takeoffs Philip - thanks, sounds a neat idea. However, I had been concerned about mounting the sensor on the hot vibrating bit (the engine) and the Kitplanes item reinforced my suspicions that it might not contribute to long life for that part. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor From: Rowland Carson On 13 Jun 2013, at 12:13, richard wrote: > Philip suggests making a fuel manifold, he probably didn't know that new rotax engines are supplied with just such a manifold, contact Conair for a price also look at the latest installation drawings for a picture. > For what its worth I modified the fuel pipe runs, dispensing with the rubber pipes in favour of proper aircraft aluminium see Mod No 13304 Richard - thanks for your message. I am planning to use aluminium piping (and racing-type steel-reinforced hose in the tunnel & FWF areas). I can't see mod 13304 anywhere on the LAA website yet, either as a prototype or standard mod. Where could I find the "latest installation drawings"? I had a look at the Europa factory website, but presumably this manifold is so new it hasn't percolated through to the factory's documentation. I'll see if I can find it on some of the Rotax websites. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.