Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:26 AM - Re: Fort William to Inverness (PHILLIPS I)
2. 02:20 AM - SV: Fort William to Inverness (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
3. 02:27 AM - Re: SV: Use of reserve tank (David Joyce)
4. 02:48 AM - Re: tank vent and drain taps (Frans Veldman)
5. 03:10 AM - SV: SV: Use of reserve tank (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
6. 05:13 AM - Re: SV: SV: Use of reserve tank (Frans Veldman)
7. 05:57 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Robert Borger)
8. 06:54 AM - Re: tank vent and drain taps (Bob Harrison)
9. 07:31 AM - Misreading altimeter, TWICE! (Richard Iddon)
10. 07:38 AM - Re: Croatia Europa trip 6th July (Richard Iddon)
11. 07:55 AM - Re: Misreading altimeter, TWICE! (Frans Veldman)
12. 07:58 AM - Re: Croatia Europa trip 6th July (Richard Iddon)
13. 08:15 AM - Re: Croatia Europa trip 6th July (Bob Hitchcock)
14. 08:19 AM - Re: Misreading altimeter, TWICE! (Pete Lawless)
15. 08:25 AM - Re: Misreading altimeter, TWICE! (Pete Lawless)
16. 09:33 AM - Re: Misreading altimeter, TWICE! (Brian Davies)
17. 10:19 AM - Re: Misreading altimeter, TWICE! (graeme bird)
18. 10:23 AM - Re: SV: Fort William to Inverness (graeme bird)
19. 10:34 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (graeme bird)
20. 11:20 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Terry Seaver (terrys))
21. 01:50 PM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Bob Harrison)
22. 02:13 PM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Frans Veldman)
23. 02:25 PM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Terry Seaver (terrys))
24. 04:31 PM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Kevin Klinefelter)
25. 06:26 PM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Kevin Kedward)
26. 06:38 PM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Kevin Kedward)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fort William to Inverness |
Only do it above a 1000 ft! As fast jets use it as a low level corridor,
Ivor
On Sunday, 23 June 2013, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no <javascript:;>>
>
> Graeme,
>
> I have done it - in both directions - with my sailboat on the Caledonian
> Canal. I can only imagine how beautiful it may be from the air - do it!
>
> Regards,
> Svein
> LN-SKJ
>
> >
> >
> > It would seem a that flying up the valley between Fort William to
> Inverness
> > from the sea would seem a sensible route north through the Scottish
> > Highlands. Is this a familiar route to anyone?
> >
> > --------
> > Graeme Bird
> > G-UMPY
> > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
> > Newby: 75 hours 18 months
> > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Fort William to Inverness |
>Only do it above a 1000 ft! As fast jets use it as a low level corridor,
>Ivor
I can confirm that! From our boat we suddenly spotted two black geese
coming towards us at low level, approaching very fast. The screaming jet
engines when "almost" touching the mast top, however, revealed another
species altogether. Not a survivable bird strike for a Europa......
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
Svein, That is all sound advice, except there is nothing
to stop you switching back to the main after having run
the reserve dry, to tap into what you left there and what
will have spilled over from the reserve. Some of that will
of course then go via the return line to the reserve side
again and when your main runs dry you can yet again switch
to reserve and expect to find a little bit there. I am not
suggesting this should be your normal practice - clearly
it is preferable always to plan to land with your reserve
fuel unused, but if one of these days you find yourself
having to do a massive diversion for say unexpected
weather problems, it is worth remembering that either tank
running dry gives enough notice (with engine coughing) to
allow you to switch to the other tank and that you can get
a few extra miles by repeating the process.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 23:29:28 +0200
"Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
wrote:
>Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>
> Graeme,
>
> What we need to keep in mind is the following:
>
> When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of
>fuel goes out per hour
> at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return
>to the reserve tank
> (i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and
>flow back over the
> saddle into the main tank. This ensures that the
>reserve tank is always
> full, even if we should fly a little uncoordinated once
>in while or
> experience some bumpy turbulence, and the net drain from
>the main tank is
> 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may
>be).
>
> What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank
>before we have
> decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now
>on it's only the
> reserve tank that will take me home." Take the
>following case: 9 liters
> in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the
>case during the
> last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one
>hour's flying time.
> If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in
>the main tank, we
> switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a
>little under half an
> hour before the engine tells you something. If we now
>switch back to the
> main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable
>fuel there anymore!
> Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to
>the reserve tank,
> but the returned volume does not any more overflow into
>the main tank
> because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its
>top. 10-15
> minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be
>critical (unless we are
> conscious about this, and switches back to reserve
>again).
>
> What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have
>left in the main
> tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty
>and switch to reserve
> just in time before the engine tells you to, and then
>stay on the reserve
> tank.
>
> I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return
>flow senders) and the
> sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent
>tubes (the one from
> the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the
>filler neck) by a
> crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet
>should be blocked by an
> insect or whatever, the other will provide equal
>pressure on top of the tank
> and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing
>how erroneous the
> sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure
>difference in the
> standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing
>gently into one of the
> outlets.
>
> /////////
>
> About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I
>would re-wire the
> fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct
>reading of the return
> flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button,
>but just have not had
> the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report!
>
> Regards,
> Svein
> LN-SKJ
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: tank vent and drain taps |
On 06/24/2013 12:59 AM, Bob Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Franz/all.
> I can confirm that Once in particular when parked overnight at ZelamZee in a
> particularly violent down pour I emptied about half a litre of water from
> one of my water drain taps .
> Since then I have tried to ensure that the whole tank filler cap is blanked
> off by tape especially the lock.
> I do have a mop out access hole in the tank top and most winter grounding
> periods I drain out and mop out to ensure both tanks are started with a
> clean charge of fuel. I have also occasionally had small amounts of water
> show depending on the level parking of the aircraft too.
Ok but in your case it seems that the water is due to rain water
invasion via the fuel cap.
I'm more concerned about water condensation in the tank, but as fas as
my experience goes in our rather wet climate, this doesn't seem to be a
problem in the Europa.
Frans
Message 5
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| Subject: | Use of reserve tank |
Fully agree, David, and I also touched upon this in my message.
My main purpose was to point out the trick that the return flow may play on
us, if we are not aware of it.
I maintain that the best procedure is to run the main tank almost empty (or
until coughing engine, if one dares to), and only then switch to the reserve
tank. If that tank should run dry, there is nothing left in the main tank
(no return flow has spilled over to the main tank after consumption from
reserve tank started) - you have used all fuel there was.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
> Svein, That is all sound advice, except there is nothing to stop you
switching
> back to the main after having run the reserve dry, to tap into what you
left
> there and what will have spilled over from the reserve. Some of that will
of
> course then go via the return line to the reserve side again and when your
> main runs dry you can yet again switch to reserve and expect to find a
little
> bit there. I am not suggesting this should be your normal practice -
clearly it is
> preferable always to plan to land with your reserve fuel unused, but if
one of
> these days you find yourself having to do a massive diversion for say
> unexpected weather problems, it is worth remembering that either tank
> running dry gives enough notice (with engine coughing) to allow you to
> switch to the other tank and that you can get a few extra miles by
repeating
> the process.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
On 06/24/2013 12:10 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> I maintain that the best procedure is to run the main tank almost empty (or
> until coughing engine, if one dares to), and only then switch to the reserve
> tank. If that tank should run dry, there is nothing left in the main tank
> (no return flow has spilled over to the main tank after consumption from
> reserve tank started) - you have used all fuel there was.
I have two tank sensors, one in the main and one in the reserve side. My
tank sensors are very sensitive near the tank bottom and they display
the amount of fuel with a resolution of 1 liter! So I can offer some
insight in how the tank empties.
What I observed when I got home with little fuel left, is that once the
main tank is zero, quite a lot of fuel sloshes from the reserve to the
main side. While draining the main side, all return fuel (for the 914 a
multiple of what the engine actually uses) returns to the reserve side,
so although fuel is sloshed over constantly, it is also refilled
constantly. So, the main tank slowly decreases until it reaches zero and
the reserve side remains filled to the brim all the time.
When switching to the reserve side, the situation changes dramatically.
Fuel being sloshed over from reserve to main is now no longer pumped
back automatically. And a lot of fuel sloshes over because the tank is
wide near the top of the saddle and of course the reserve is filled just
to the edge of it. It is like walking with a bucket completely filled
with water and you don't need much movement to loose quite a lot of the
contents. In a short while I had collected 4 liters in main again (4
liters isn't much but it is half the contents of the reserve side!). It
was just moderately turbulent, the usual thing on a hot summer day with
some cumulus above the airplane, and being aware of the low fuel I tried
to keep things as calm as possible.
So, if you don't switch back to main, you can't count on having 9 liters
in reserve, but only half of it.
When I switched back to main, the main tank got empty again in two
minutes, because the 914 pumps displace 120 liters per hour and all the
excess fuel is put in the reserve side again. I kept my hand on the fuel
valve, it was just a matter of counting down and seeing the fuel quickly
move from the main to the reserve side again. Now I had 8 liters again
in the reserve side.
I had to repeat this once more, and after that the fuel level was low
enough to stay in the reserve side. And of course about that time I was
landing, with 4 liters left plus a silent amount of 2 liters of
"unusable" fuel.
The lessons here:
1) If you don't switch back to main, you only have half the amount of
the reserve tank available.
2) Avoid to empty the reserve side while there is still (or again) fuel
in main left, because once you switch back to main the fuel will be
pumped over again in the reserve side in just a minute!
3) Be prepared to switch a few times between main and reserve to keep
the fuel as much as possible in the reserve side.
4) Be aware, especially with a 914, that the main tank will drain very
quickly once the reserve tank is no longer full.
5) If you don't have separate fuel sensors, fuel management will become
very difficult while flying on reserve: The reserve will empty more
quickly than anticipated, and once it is empty, you will find fuel again
in main, but as it is pumped over, it will quickly disappear and then
the reserve side has fuel again!
Frans
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
Frans,
Thanks very much for your detailed observation and explanation!
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jun 24, 2013, at 7:12 AM, Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl> wrote:
On 06/24/2013 12:10 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> I maintain that the best procedure is to run the main tank almost empty (or
> until coughing engine, if one dares to), and only then switch to the reserve
> tank. If that tank should run dry, there is nothing left in the main tank
> (no return flow has spilled over to the main tank after consumption from
> reserve tank started) - you have used all fuel there was.
I have two tank sensors, one in the main and one in the reserve side. My
tank sensors are very sensitive near the tank bottom and they display
the amount of fuel with a resolution of 1 liter! So I can offer some
insight in how the tank empties.
What I observed when I got home with little fuel left, is that once the
main tank is zero, quite a lot of fuel sloshes from the reserve to the
main side. While draining the main side, all return fuel (for the 914 a
multiple of what the engine actually uses) returns to the reserve side,
so although fuel is sloshed over constantly, it is also refilled
constantly. So, the main tank slowly decreases until it reaches zero and
the reserve side remains filled to the brim all the time.
When switching to the reserve side, the situation changes dramatically.
Fuel being sloshed over from reserve to main is now no longer pumped
back automatically. And a lot of fuel sloshes over because the tank is
wide near the top of the saddle and of course the reserve is filled just
to the edge of it. It is like walking with a bucket completely filled
with water and you don't need much movement to loose quite a lot of the
contents. In a short while I had collected 4 liters in main again (4
liters isn't much but it is half the contents of the reserve side!). It
was just moderately turbulent, the usual thing on a hot summer day with
some cumulus above the airplane, and being aware of the low fuel I tried
to keep things as calm as possible.
So, if you don't switch back to main, you can't count on having 9 liters
in reserve, but only half of it.
When I switched back to main, the main tank got empty again in two
minutes, because the 914 pumps displace 120 liters per hour and all the
excess fuel is put in the reserve side again. I kept my hand on the fuel
valve, it was just a matter of counting down and seeing the fuel quickly
move from the main to the reserve side again. Now I had 8 liters again
in the reserve side.
I had to repeat this once more, and after that the fuel level was low
enough to stay in the reserve side. And of course about that time I was
landing, with 4 liters left plus a silent amount of 2 liters of
"unusable" fuel.
The lessons here:
1) If you don't switch back to main, you only have half the amount of
the reserve tank available.
2) Avoid to empty the reserve side while there is still (or again) fuel
in main left, because once you switch back to main the fuel will be
pumped over again in the reserve side in just a minute!
3) Be prepared to switch a few times between main and reserve to keep
the fuel as much as possible in the reserve side.
4) Be aware, especially with a 914, that the main tank will drain very
quickly once the reserve tank is no longer full.
5) If you don't have separate fuel sensors, fuel management will become
very difficult while flying on reserve: The reserve will empty more
quickly than anticipated, and once it is empty, you will find fuel again
in main, but as it is pumped over, it will quickly disappear and then
the reserve side has fuel again!
Frans
Message 8
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| Subject: | tank vent and drain taps |
Yes Frans, that is as near correct as can be. I'm confident that my two mini
gascolators would cater for condensation ...no problem.
Regards
Bob Harrison.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 24 June 2013 10:48
Subject: Re: Europa-List: tank vent and drain taps
--> <frans@privatepilots.nl>
On 06/24/2013 12:59 AM, Bob Harrison wrote:
> --> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Franz/all.
> I can confirm that Once in particular when parked overnight at
> ZelamZee in a particularly violent down pour I emptied about half a
> litre of water from one of my water drain taps .
> Since then I have tried to ensure that the whole tank filler cap is
> blanked off by tape especially the lock.
> I do have a mop out access hole in the tank top and most winter
> grounding periods I drain out and mop out to ensure both tanks are
> started with a clean charge of fuel. I have also occasionally had
> small amounts of water show depending on the level parking of the aircraft
too.
Ok but in your case it seems that the water is due to rain water invasion
via the fuel cap.
I'm more concerned about water condensation in the tank, but as fas as my
experience goes in our rather wet climate, this doesn't seem to be a problem
in the Europa.
Frans
Message 9
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| Subject: | Misreading altimeter, TWICE! |
I have a problem with my (Chinese) altimeter. I am out of the country for a few
months each year but when I got back this time I discovered that my altimeter
was reading around 5500 ft. This is the second time I have had this problem.
First time was a couple of years ago and I replaced the altimeter with another
unit. This has been Ok but now the second one is again reading 5500ft.
I guess I will have to shell out on yet another unit but would be interested to
know if anyone else has experienced any similar problems?
The only thing I can think of which might have a bearing is that I normally connect
the pitot to the static line when I am away to stop spiders crawling up there
but I can't see how that can affect anything.
Richard Iddon
G-RIXS
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Croatia Europa trip 6th July |
Hi Bob.
I would love to come on the Croatia trip. Unfortunately I have been having issues
with my medical. Nothing serious but the National Health has been dragging
it's heels and the CAA has been less than helpful. I finally have an appointment
for next Monday when I hope to get my medical back. I then need to test fly
my aircraft for permit and get it back from LAA. I really don't think that I
could do all this within the week but just in case, could you copy me in on the
details of the trip. I used to have a boat in Croatia and would love to go there
again.
Regards,
Richard Iddon. G-RIXS
On 18 Jun 2013, at 08:49, Bob Hitchcock <robert.hitchcock@virgin.net> wrote:
> Reminder call for the Europa club trip to the Balkan peninsula leaving 6th July.
Some space remains
>
> Innsbruck
> To eat Prgeltorte cake
>
> The beautiful Medieval buildings of the Old Town, the famous Golden Roof glinting
in the sunlight and, towering above it, the 2,000 metre-high peaks of the
Nordkette mountain range.
>
> Pula
> To eat Zagrebaki odrezak (Veal steaks stuffed with ham and cheese and grilled
with breadcrumbs)
>
> Stroll along the streets of the city of Pula you will be astonished by the cultural
masterpieces which create the landscapes of this cultural city. The rich
itenirary of cultural monuments definitely begins with the grand ampithetre,
the Arena of Pula. Once hosting thousands of spectators of gladiator fights.
The Arena is the only remaining Roman architecture with all four side towers and
three architectural orders completely preserved.
>
> Plus mountains and blue sea.
>
> All the above is to give a taster. But as we know on the these trips, the adventure
unfolds each day
>
> Regards
>
> Bob
>
> GBYSA EUROPA XS MONO
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Misreading altimeter, TWICE! |
On 06/24/2013 04:29 PM, Richard Iddon wrote:
> The only thing I can think of which might have a bearing is that I
> normally connect the pitot to the static line when I am away to stop
> spiders crawling up there but I can't see how that can affect
> anything.
If your system is leak free, the instuments will receive quite a jolt
when you disconnect the pitot from the static after the ambient pressure
has been changed. Such a jolt can easily damage the gear in the altimeter.
It is best to incorporate a small leak, just a pinhole in the connecting
tube, to keep the pressure similar to the outer pressure.
Frans
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Croatia Europa trip 6th July |
Oops sorry folks.
This should just have gone to Bob.
On 24 Jun 2013, at 15:38, Richard Iddon <riddon@sent.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob.
>
> I would love to come on the Croatia trip. Unfortunately I have been having issues
with my medical. Nothing serious but the National Health has been dragging
it's heels and the CAA has been less than helpful. I finally have an appointment
for next Monday when I hope to get my medical back. I then need to test fly
my aircraft for permit and get it back from LAA. I really don't think that
I could do all this within the week but just in case, could you copy me in on
the details of the trip. I used to have a boat in Croatia and would love to go
there again.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Iddon. G-RIXS
> On 18 Jun 2013, at 08:49, Bob Hitchcock <robert.hitchcock@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> Reminder call for the Europa club trip to the Balkan peninsula leaving 6th
July. Some space remains
>>
>> Innsbruck
>> To eat Prgeltorte cake
>>
>> The beautiful Medieval buildings of the Old Town, the famous Golden Roof glinting
in the sunlight and, towering above it, the 2,000 metre-high peaks of the
Nordkette mountain range.
>>
>> Pula
>> To eat Zagrebaki odrezak (Veal steaks stuffed with ham and cheese and grilled
with breadcrumbs)
>>
>> Stroll along the streets of the city of Pula you will be astonished by the cultural
masterpieces which create the landscapes of this cultural city. The rich
itenirary of cultural monuments definitely begins with the grand ampithetre,
the Arena of Pula. Once hosting thousands of spectators of gladiator fights.
The Arena is the only remaining Roman architecture with all four side towers
and three architectural orders completely preserved.
>>
>> Plus mountains and blue sea.
>>
>> All the above is to give a taster. But as we know on the these trips, the adventure
unfolds each day
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> GBYSA EUROPA XS MONO
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Croatia Europa trip 6th July |
Hi Richard
Of course! Haven't seen you in years. It would be good to meet up.
Regards
Bob
On 24 Jun 2013, at 15:38, Richard Iddon <riddon@sent.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob.
>
> I would love to come on the Croatia trip. Unfortunately I have been having issues
with my medical. Nothing serious but the National Health has been dragging
it's heels and the CAA has been less than helpful. I finally have an appointment
for next Monday when I hope to get my medical back. I then need to test fly
my aircraft for permit and get it back from LAA. I really don't think that
I could do all this within the week but just in case, could you copy me in on
the details of the trip. I used to have a boat in Croatia and would love to go
there again.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Iddon. G-RIXS
> On 18 Jun 2013, at 08:49, Bob Hitchcock <robert.hitchcock@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> Reminder call for the Europa club trip to the Balkan peninsula leaving 6th
July. Some space remains
>>
>> Innsbruck
>> To eat Prgeltorte cake
>>
>> The beautiful Medieval buildings of the Old Town, the famous Golden Roof glinting
in the sunlight and, towering above it, the 2,000 metre-high peaks of the
Nordkette mountain range.
>>
>> Pula
>> To eat Zagrebaki odrezak (Veal steaks stuffed with ham and cheese and grilled
with breadcrumbs)
>>
>> Stroll along the streets of the city of Pula you will be astonished by the cultural
masterpieces which create the landscapes of this cultural city. The rich
itenirary of cultural monuments definitely begins with the grand ampithetre,
the Arena of Pula. Once hosting thousands of spectators of gladiator fights.
The Arena is the only remaining Roman architecture with all four side towers
and three architectural orders completely preserved.
>>
>> Plus mountains and blue sea.
>>
>> All the above is to give a taster. But as we know on the these trips, the adventure
unfolds each day
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> GBYSA EUROPA XS MONO
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Misreading altimeter, TWICE! |
Frans
Would you not get that leakage from the VSI?
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 24 June 2013 15:53
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Misreading altimeter, TWICE!
On 06/24/2013 04:29 PM, Richard Iddon wrote:
> The only thing I can think of which might have a bearing is that I
> normally connect the pitot to the static line when I am away to stop
> spiders crawling up there but I can't see how that can affect
> anything.
If your system is leak free, the instuments will receive quite a jolt
when you disconnect the pitot from the static after the ambient pressure
has been changed. Such a jolt can easily damage the gear in the altimeter.
It is best to incorporate a small leak, just a pinhole in the connecting
tube, to keep the pressure similar to the outer pressure.
Frans
--
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dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
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| Subject: | Misreading altimeter, TWICE! |
Frans
Ignore me VSI is static to static not static to free air.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 24 June 2013 15:53
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Misreading altimeter, TWICE!
On 06/24/2013 04:29 PM, Richard Iddon wrote:
> The only thing I can think of which might have a bearing is that I
> normally connect the pitot to the static line when I am away to stop
> spiders crawling up there but I can't see how that can affect
> anything.
If your system is leak free, the instuments will receive quite a jolt
when you disconnect the pitot from the static after the ambient pressure
has been changed. Such a jolt can easily damage the gear in the altimeter.
It is best to incorporate a small leak, just a pinhole in the connecting
tube, to keep the pressure similar to the outer pressure.
Frans
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Misreading altimeter, TWICE! |
Hi Richard,
I have had the same problem with a Chinese altimeter. Mine only went to
4000 feet and I did not touch the pitot or static. I purchased an
(expensive) Winter altimeter and have had no more problems. If I remember
rightly, I reset it once by disengaging the baro adjust mechanism but it did
it again within 12 months.
Regards
Brian Davies G-DDBD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon
Sent: 24 June 2013 15:30
Subject: Europa-List: Misreading altimeter, TWICE!
I have a problem with my (Chinese) altimeter. I am out of the country for a
few months each year but when I got back this time I discovered that my
altimeter was reading around 5500 ft. This is the second time I have had
this problem. First time was a couple of years ago and I replaced the
altimeter with another unit. This has been Ok but now the second one is
again reading 5500ft.
I guess I will have to shell out on yet another unit but would be interested
to know if anyone else has experienced any similar problems?
The only thing I can think of which might have a bearing is that I normally
connect the pitot to the static line when I am away to stop spiders crawling
up there but I can't see how that can affect anything.
Richard Iddon
G-RIXS
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Misreading altimeter, TWICE! |
yes I have had that on a Falcon one. I put it down to an extreme of pressure and
sudden change.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403326#403326
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: SV: Fort William to Inverness |
to be clear I would be in touch with Scottish information and not be in the valley
unless forced down by conditions and then I would at least know that there
is no high ground ahead if keeping to course/ visual with lake/canal.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403327#403327
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
thanks for the contributions, that is all really helpful. Handy to know how long
it takes, that it runs rough before cutting and of course that the fuel pressure
gauge can be very useful then. Also that if running on reserve is essential,
and conditions are bumpy switching back to main for a minute in the early
ltrs will increase the range.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403329#403329
Message 20
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| Subject: | Use of reserve tank |
I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out, then
switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a safe,
controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After
switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because the
Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and took
some time to recover once the engine restarted.
The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in
the reserve tank.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM
Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
--> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
Graeme,
What we need to keep in mind is the following:
When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour at
cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank (i.e.
abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the saddle into
the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always full, even if
we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence,
and the net drain from the main tank is
18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be).
What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided that
"OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the
reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters
in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last part
of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time.
If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch
to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before
the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank, we
suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore!
Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but the
returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the reserve
tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time is
thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and
switches back to reserve again).
What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank, so
we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in
time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank.
I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight
tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the top
of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover
tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or whatever,
the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top of
the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading
gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement
- just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets.
/////////
About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel
flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow only.
I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time
to wire it in ........ Will do - will report!
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 21
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| Subject: | Use of reserve tank |
Hi! Terry /all.
I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I
have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position
for a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped
the siphon from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later
over the Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence!
Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered flight
pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft before the engine
windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me asked what we would do to
which I replied "you will need to turn round in your seat and pump that
siphon hand ball to re-establish the siphon like you are milking a cow (or
something like that !) When I could see the gauge was back reasonable again
we switched to main tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which
time we knew was full to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never
tried an in flight re-start with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't
like to tempt providence ! If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a
914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real
service.
Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop
with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of
an abrupt un intended engine stop ?
Happy Days !
Best regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver
(terrys)
Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
--> <terrys@cisco.com>
I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run
out, then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure
in a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind
milling. After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high
RPMs because the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the
engine cut out, and took some time to recover once the engine restarted.
The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching
in the reserve tank.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein
Johnsen
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM
Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
--> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
Graeme,
What we need to keep in mind is the following:
When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour
at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank
(i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the
saddle into the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always
full, even if we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or
experience some bumpy turbulence, and the net drain from the main tank is
18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be).
What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have
decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the
reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters
in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the
last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time.
If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we
switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an
hour before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the
main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore!
Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank,
but the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank
because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15
minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are
conscious about this, and switches back to reserve again).
What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main
tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve
just in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve
tank.
I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the
sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from
the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a
crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an
insect or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank
and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the
sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in the
standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the
outlets.
/////////
About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the
fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return
flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had
the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report!
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
On 06/24/2013 10:47 PM, Bob Harrison wrote:
> Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop
> with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of
> an abrupt un intended engine stop ?
Although I'm not Mark Burton I think that indeed it will motor to fully
fine. The controller tries to maintain the target RPM, if the RPM drops
it will set a finer pitch, that's what it is supposed to do. If the
engine is out of fuel, the RPM drops, so the prop will be set to fully fine.
Frans
Message 23
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| Subject: | Use of reserve tank |
Hi Bob,
We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the
Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and once
stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots. This
is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers
may vary from this.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
--> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Terry /all.
I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have
a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for a
photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon
from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees
to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence!
Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered flight pilot
! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft before the engine windmilled
to start immediately. My friend with me asked what we would do to which
I replied "you will need to turn round in your seat and pump that siphon hand
ball to re-establish the siphon like you are milking a cow (or something like
that !) When I could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to main
tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was full
to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight re-start
with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt providence ! If someone
has the minimum windmill speed of a
914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service.
Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with the
Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt
un intended engine stop ?
Happy Days !
Best regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver
(terrys)
Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
--> <terrys@cisco.com>
I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out, then
switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a safe,
controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After
switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because the
Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and took
some time to recover once the engine restarted.
The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in
the reserve tank.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM
Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
--> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
Graeme,
What we need to keep in mind is the following:
When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour at
cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank (i.e.
abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the saddle into
the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always full, even if
we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence,
and the net drain from the main tank is
18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be).
What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided that
"OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the
reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters
in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last part
of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time.
If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch
to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before
the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank, we
suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore!
Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but the
returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the reserve
tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time is
thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and
switches back to reserve again).
What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank, so
we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in
time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank.
I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight
tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the top
of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover
tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or whatever,
the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top of
the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading
gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement
- just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets.
/////////
About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel
flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow only.
I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time
to wire it in ........ Will do - will report!
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
Hi Terry and all,
I stopped my 914 a couple days ago,feathered the Airmaster and went for a long
glide. Windmill start happens at about 90 knots.
I was doing touch and goes a while back in my Mono and ran out of fuel on the main
just after liftoff. No problem, I just landed on the remaining runway, but
that really got me thinking! I didn't realize my fuel was quite that low. So
now my Takeoff and Landing checklist includes fuel selector on reserve.
Kevin
On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the
Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and once
stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots.
This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers
may vary from this.
>
> Regards,
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison
> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>
> --> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Terry /all.
> I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have
a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for
a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon
from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees
to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence!
> Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered flight pilot
! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft before the engine windmilled
to start immediately. My friend with me asked what we would do to which
I replied "you will need to turn round in your seat and pump that siphon hand
ball to re-establish the siphon like you are milking a cow (or something like
that !) When I could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to
main tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was full
to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight re-start
with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt providence ! If
someone has the minimum windmill speed of a
> 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service.
> Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with
the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt
un intended engine stop ?
> Happy Days !
> Best regards
> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver
> (terrys)
> Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>
> --> <terrys@cisco.com>
>
> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out,
then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a
safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After
switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because
the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and
took some time to recover once the engine restarted.
> The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in
the reserve tank.
>
> Regards,
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>
> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>
> Graeme,
>
> What we need to keep in mind is the following:
>
> When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour at
cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank (i.e.
abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the saddle
into the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always full, even if
we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy
turbulence, and the net drain from the main tank is
> 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be).
>
> What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided
that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the
> reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters
> in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last
part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time.
> If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch
to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before
the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank,
we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore!
> Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but
the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the
reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time
is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and
switches back to reserve again).
>
> What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank,
so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in
time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank.
>
> I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight
tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the
top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover
tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or
whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top
of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading
gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement
- just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets.
>
> /////////
>
> About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel
flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow
only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time
to wire it in ........ Will do - will report!
>
> Regards,
> Svein
> LN-SKJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
Gentlemen ,
I'm stunned by this discussion. Why would you wish to go anywhere near running
out of fuel? I would never take p2 with you or allow my family to take a flight
with any of you!!. This talk about changing from one side of the tank and
guessing what is sloshing about in the reserve is crazy and what kills people.
In 14 years of Europa flight I have had no reason to go anywhere near running
out of fuel. How is it that some guys have to tape up the filler cap ? Or extract
litre's of water out because it was in a shower ? It's news to me.... I
think I'll buy an umbrella :) Kevin the safe one.
Sent from my iPhone
On 25 Jun 2013, at 00:30, Kevin Klinefelter <klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Terry and all,
> I stopped my 914 a couple days ago,feathered the Airmaster and went for a long
glide. Windmill start happens at about 90 knots.
>
> I was doing touch and goes a while back in my Mono and ran out of fuel on the
main just after liftoff. No problem, I just landed on the remaining runway, but
that really got me thinking! I didn't realize my fuel was quite that low. So
now my Takeoff and Landing checklist includes fuel selector on reserve.
>
> Kevin
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the
Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and
once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots.
This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers
may vary from this.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Terry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison
>> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>>
>> --> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>>
>> Hi! Terry /all.
>> I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have
a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for
a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon
from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees
to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence!
>> Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered flight
pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft before the engine windmilled
to start immediately. My friend with me asked what we would do to which
I replied "you will need to turn round in your seat and pump that siphon hand
ball to re-establish the siphon like you are milking a cow (or something like
that !) When I could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to
main tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was
full to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight re-start
with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt providence ! If
someone has the minimum windmill speed of a
>> 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service.
>> Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with
the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt
un intended engine stop ?
>> Happy Days !
>> Best regards
>> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver
>> (terrys)
>> Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>>
>> --> <terrys@cisco.com>
>>
>> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out,
then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a
safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling.
After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because
the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and
took some time to recover once the engine restarted.
>> The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching
in the reserve tank.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Terry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
>> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>>
>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>>
>> Graeme,
>>
>> What we need to keep in mind is the following:
>>
>> When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour
at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank (i.e.
abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the saddle
into the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always full, even
if we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy
turbulence, and the net drain from the main tank is
>> 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be).
>>
>> What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided
that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the
>> reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters
>> in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last
part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time.
>> If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch
to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before
the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank,
we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore!
>> Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but
the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the
reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time
is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and
switches back to reserve again).
>>
>> What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank,
so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just
in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank.
>>
>> I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the
sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the
top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover
tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or
whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top
of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading
gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing
arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets.
>>
>> /////////
>>
>> About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel
flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow
only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the
time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Svein
>> LN-SKJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Use of reserve tank |
Ps, Go buy Powerflarm so you don't crash into me or fall on me because you ran
out of fuel. Kevin the safe one.
Sent from my iPhone
On 25 Jun 2013, at 02:26, Kevin Kedward <kpeng1@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Gentlemen ,
> I'm stunned by this discussion. Why would you wish to go anywhere near running
out of fuel? I would never take p2 with you or allow my family to take a flight
with any of you!!. This talk about changing from one side of the tank and
guessing what is sloshing about in the reserve is crazy and what kills people.
In 14 years of Europa flight I have had no reason to go anywhere near running
out of fuel. How is it that some guys have to tape up the filler cap ? Or
extract litre's of water out because it was in a shower ? It's news to me....
I think I'll buy an umbrella :) Kevin the safe one.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 25 Jun 2013, at 00:30, Kevin Klinefelter <klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Terry and all,
>> I stopped my 914 a couple days ago,feathered the Airmaster and went for a long
glide. Windmill start happens at about 90 knots.
>>
>> I was doing touch and goes a while back in my Mono and ran out of fuel on the
main just after liftoff. No problem, I just landed on the remaining runway,
but that really got me thinking! I didn't realize my fuel was quite that low.
So now my Takeoff and Landing checklist includes fuel selector on reserve.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and
the Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and
once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots.
This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers
may vary from this.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison
>>> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>>>
>>> --> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>>>
>>> Hi! Terry /all.
>>> I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I
have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for
a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon
from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the
Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence!
>>> Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered flight
pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft before the engine
windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me asked what we would do to which
I replied "you will need to turn round in your seat and pump that siphon
hand ball to re-establish the siphon like you are milking a cow (or something
like that !) When I could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched
to main tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was
full to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight re-start
with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt providence !
If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a
>>> 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service.
>>> Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with
the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt
un intended engine stop ?
>>> Happy Days !
>>> Best regards
>>> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver
>>> (terrys)
>>> Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>>>
>>> --> <terrys@cisco.com>
>>>
>>> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out,
then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in
a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling.
After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because
the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and
took some time to recover once the engine restarted.
>>> The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching
in the reserve tank.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank
>>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>>>
>>> Graeme,
>>>
>>> What we need to keep in mind is the following:
>>>
>>> When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour
at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank
(i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the saddle
into the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always full, even
if we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy
turbulence, and the net drain from the main tank is
>>> 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be).
>>>
>>> What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided
that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the
>>> reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters
>>> in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last
part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time.
>>> If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch
to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour
before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank,
we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore!
>>> Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but
the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the
reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time
is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this,
and switches back to reserve again).
>>>
>>> What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank,
so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just
in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank.
>>>
>>> I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the
sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the
top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover
tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect
or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top
of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube
reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing
arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets.
>>>
>>> /////////
>>>
>>> About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the
fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow
only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the
time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Svein
>>> LN-SKJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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