---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/25/13: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:56 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Frans Veldman) 2. 03:10 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Bob Harrison) 3. 03:22 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Bob Harrison) 4. 03:25 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Bob Harrison) 5. 03:25 AM - Powerflarm (Frans Veldman) 6. 03:32 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Roland) 7. 03:34 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Bob Harrison) 8. 03:47 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Frans Veldman) 9. 04:02 AM - Re: Powerflarm (David Watts) 10. 04:26 AM - Re: Powerflarm (Frans Veldman) 11. 05:46 AM - Re: Powerflarm (David Joyce) 12. 06:06 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Kevin Klinefelter) 13. 06:11 AM - Re: Powerflarm (Max Cointe (Free)) 14. 06:47 AM - Re: Powerflarm (Frans Veldman) 15. 07:43 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Kevin Kedward) 16. 09:22 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 17. 09:37 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 18. 09:56 AM - Re: Use of reserve tank (Kevin Kedward) 19. 11:31 AM - wing pins/sockets () 20. 12:55 PM - Re: Use of reserve tank (graeme bird) 21. 01:38 PM - Re: Powerflarm (David Watts) 22. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Use of reserve tank (Frans Veldman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:46 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank On 06/25/2013 03:26 AM, Kevin Kedward wrote: > Gentlemen , I'm stunned by this discussion. Why would you wish to go > anywhere near running out of fuel? I guess it is nobody's wish but it sometimes happens. That is why we have a reserve after all, to use it when it is needed. Some of us (mostly the frequent flyers, the people that travel long distances and explore the world with their Europa) have had to use the reserve fuel, and that is why we have the reserve fuel after all. Nobody has crashed. Be happy that some people are able to describe what happens when you are low on fuel and how to get the most out of your reserve fuel. In my case it was at my homefield, I had radio contact with them, knew that I could land there (with many suitable farmer fields on the way to it), with a very accurate fuel flow sensor (and return flow sensor, no guessing here!), fuel computer with GPS ground speed input, fuel flow and fuel level, calibrated tank sensors with a resolution of 1 liter. It was a highly reliable exercise in a very safe and predictable environment and I arrived with the exact amount of fuel as calculated. I'm happy to have had this experience, so I know that I can and know how to actually use my reserve in the event of a genuine unforseen situation. > This talk about > changing from one side of the tank and guessing what is sloshing > about in the reserve is crazy and what kills people. No, it saves people. Maybe some day someone runs nearly out of fuel and remembers this discussion, that you can't use the 9 liters of fuel unless you switch back to main to retrieve the sloshed over fuel. What't the idea of carrying around some pounds of fuel for an emergency if you don't know how to use it when it is really needed? Quite often the uninformed people get killed, people who never dare to explore the limits when it is safe to do so. In this case you could get killed because you count on having 9 liters of reserve but don't know that in reality you can only use 4 liters of it, unless you know how to deal with it properly. And that under no circumstance you should switch to reserve too early and try to save some fuel in main for the landing. > In 14 years of > Europa flight I have had no reason to go anywhere near running out > of fuel. Maybe some day you will have. You are facing an unpredicted head wind over sea with no suitable airfield for an extra fuel stop. Or you have a faulty gasket in your carb and the engine is suddenly running rich and consuming more fuel than expected, or the choosen airfield is suddenly closed and you have to divert and are put in a holding pattern. Are you going to declare a fuel emergency because you have only 20 liters of fuel left? Why would you fly around with all this fuel if you are so sure you will never have to use it? You probably tried to built your airplane as light as possible, and now you are spoiling it by carrying around pounds of useless fuel? > How is it that some guys have to tape up the filler cap ? > Or extract litre's of water out because it was in a shower ? What would you do, leave the water in the tank? I'm sure that "someone" was not amused to find the water in his tank, and I think it is fully understandable that he from now on tapes of his fuel cap as an extra precaution to prevent water ingress. How can you be sure it will hever happen to you? Unless of course you keep your airplane sheltered and only take it out on a sunny day for a trip around the home field. Are you actually hosing over your aircraft anually for a few hours to see whether the fuel cap is really water tight, or are you just assuming the cap is tight and remains that way for the rest of its life? I'm happy that people are willing to share their experience, even if it sounds "stupid" to some who think they are wiser than the rest of us. I will be giving the fuel cap some more attention, thanks Bob! Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:59 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Thanks for that Kevin don't suppose you remember what you did with the throttle do you ? ......Mine starts hot on the ground with half throttle just instantly. I don't believe it's necessary for each one of us to experiment when the information is readily available(except there will be a slight variation between different props as well as engines obviously the main ting is to get it restarted and surely the starter would be more instantaneous and the windmill effect would only be needed in the event of the starter failing for whatever reason .. Actually I'm surprised it starts anyway with the gearbox effect! The Direct drive on the Jabiru was as if nothing had happened!. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Klinefelter Sent: 25 June 2013 00:30 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Hi Terry and all, I stopped my 914 a couple days ago,feathered the Airmaster and went for a long glide. Windmill start happens at about 90 knots. I was doing touch and goes a while back in my Mono and ran out of fuel on the main just after liftoff. No problem, I just landed on the remaining runway, but that really got me thinking! I didn't realize my fuel was quite that low. So now my Takeoff and Landing checklist includes fuel selector on reserve. Kevin On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" wrote: > --> > > Hi Bob, > > We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots. This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers may vary from this. > > Regards, > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob > Harrison > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank > > --> > > Hi! Terry /all. > I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence! > Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered > flight pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft > before the engine windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me > asked what we would do to which I replied "you will need to turn round > in your seat and pump that siphon hand ball to re-establish the siphon > like you are milking a cow (or something like that !) When I could see > the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to main tank but > actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was full to > over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight > re-start with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt > providence ! If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a > 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service. > Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt un intended engine stop ? > Happy Days ! > Best regards > Bob Harrison. G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry > Seaver > (terrys) > Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank > > --> > > I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out, then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and took some time to recover once the engine restarted. > The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in the reserve tank. > > Regards, > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & > Svein Johnsen > Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank > > --> > > Graeme, > > What we need to keep in mind is the following: > > When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per > hour at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the > reserve tank (i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and > flow back over the saddle into the main tank. This ensures that the > reserve tank is always full, even if we should fly a little > uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence, and > the net drain from the main tank is > 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be). > > What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the > reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters > in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time. > If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore! > Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and switches back to reserve again). > > What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank. > > I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets. > > ///////// > > About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report! > > Regards, > Svein > LN-SKJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:46 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Thanks for that Terry, I'm a bit of a wimp and not ashamed to admit it ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver (terrys) Sent: 24 June 2013 22:25 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Hi Bob, We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots. This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers may vary from this. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Hi! Terry /all. I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence! Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered flight pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft before the engine windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me asked what we would do to which I replied "you will need to turn round in your seat and pump that siphon hand ball to re-establish the siphon like you are milking a cow (or something like that !) When I could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to main tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was full to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight re-start with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt providence ! If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service. Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt un intended engine stop ? Happy Days ! Best regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver (terrys) Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out, then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and took some time to recover once the engine restarted. The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in the reserve tank. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Graeme, What we need to keep in mind is the following: When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank (i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the saddle into the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always full, even if we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence, and the net drain from the main tank is 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be). What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time. If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore! Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and switches back to reserve again). What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank. I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets. ///////// About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report! Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:24 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Thanks Frans ...........which I guess provides most instant torque to wind up the engine anyway ! It is good to see the damn English weather is now better after it was so desperately needed to be good over the weekend. Regards Bob Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 24 June 2013 22:13 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> On 06/24/2013 10:47 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp > Prop with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the > event of an abrupt un intended engine stop ? Although I'm not Mark Burton I think that indeed it will motor to fully fine. The controller tries to maintain the target RPM, if the RPM drops it will set a finer pitch, that's what it is supposed to do. If the engine is out of fuel, the RPM drops, so the prop will be set to fully fine. Frans ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:58 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Powerflarm On 06/25/2013 03:38 AM, Kevin Kedward wrote: > > Ps, Go buy Powerflarm so you don't crash into me or fall on me because you ran out of fuel. Kevin the safe one. Why would you go so dangerously close to other aircraft that you need Powerflarm to avoid hitting them? Seriously, this is exactly what I'm planning to do (buying the Powerflarm, not the "running out of fuel" part). On the North cape trip I saw some other pilots using an iPad mini with SkyDemon, and I liked it so much that I also bought an iPad and SkyDemon subscription. With no Apple experience I made the mistake to buy the "wifi-only" iPad model, assuming that I could use some remote bluetooth GPS antenna, or even the GPS inside my Android phone as a starter, later to find out that Apple simply sabotaged the possibility to use a generic external GPS. At the same time I had PowerFlarm high on my wish list. I already have a transponder-detector but I regularly fly in the Alps where there are many gliders and no radar coverage. And Powerflarm detects everything, mode-C, mode-S, ADS-B and Flarm. So I was very pleased to receive a new version of SkyDemon with Powerflarm support built in. It seems to support input with the Butterfly connect device, which communicates between the Powerflarm and Ipad via wifi. To avoid another buying mistake, I would like to hear if people have experience with such a combination. My intention is to buy the Garrecht TRX-1500, the Butterfly connect, and have the information om my audio interface and Ipad running SkyDemon. If this works well I don't need to have a dedicated powerflarm(-alike) display in my panel. And I don't need yet another GPS-antenna just for the iPad. Just a few questions: 1) It looks like the Garrecht TRX-1500 is the same as Powerflarm, but just a tad more optimised for use in powered aircraft than for gliders. Is there a reason to use Butterfly instead of Garrecht? 2) It looks like the Butterfly connect broadcasts not only traffic info but also GPS info. Neither party (not even SkyDemon) is willing to testify that I can use it to get SkyDemon working on the Ipad-wifi, but they suggest "it should be" and that SkyDemon will use the broadcasted GPS info (without Apple knowing that I violate their ban on receiving GPS-info on my No-GPS model). 3) How usable is the traffic info displayed via the SkyDemon? I have not seen pictures of it, what is actually displayed when there is conflicting traffic, but I like the idea to be able to see other aircraft positioned on the moving map. Thanks in advance for any wise words on this. Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:28 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Use of reserve tank From: "Roland" Absolutely well said, Frans. And also from me thank you very much for that exact description what happens with the main/reserve. I will keep that well in mind and notice it somewhere to have it at hand when the need arises - especially because I don't have such accurate fuel gouges than you. Bob, thanks for the tip to taper the fuel inlet when parking in rain. Roland PH-ZTI XS Trigear 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403379#403379 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:04 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Hi! Frans, You are welcome to hear of my learning experiences my philosophy is like landing gear up "there's those that have done it and those that will". My insurance is to have the long range tank and as you are well aware I therefore fly slower, but I just dropped my carb needles back to where they were fitted the spats and now fly more efficiently, I'm wishing I had done that before our North Cape trip! Regards Bob H . PS any photos yet ? -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 25 June 2013 10:56 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> On 06/25/2013 03:26 AM, Kevin Kedward wrote: > Gentlemen , I'm stunned by this discussion. Why would you wish to go > anywhere near running out of fuel? I guess it is nobody's wish but it sometimes happens. That is why we have a reserve after all, to use it when it is needed. Some of us (mostly the frequent flyers, the people that travel long distances and explore the world with their Europa) have had to use the reserve fuel, and that is why we have the reserve fuel after all. Nobody has crashed. Be happy that some people are able to describe what happens when you are low on fuel and how to get the most out of your reserve fuel. In my case it was at my homefield, I had radio contact with them, knew that I could land there (with many suitable farmer fields on the way to it), with a very accurate fuel flow sensor (and return flow sensor, no guessing here!), fuel computer with GPS ground speed input, fuel flow and fuel level, calibrated tank sensors with a resolution of 1 liter. It was a highly reliable exercise in a very safe and predictable environment and I arrived with the exact amount of fuel as calculated. I'm happy to have had this experience, so I know that I can and know how to actually use my reserve in the event of a genuine unforseen situation. > This talk about > changing from one side of the tank and guessing what is sloshing about > in the reserve is crazy and what kills people. No, it saves people. Maybe some day someone runs nearly out of fuel and remembers this discussion, that you can't use the 9 liters of fuel unless you switch back to main to retrieve the sloshed over fuel. What't the idea of carrying around some pounds of fuel for an emergency if you don't know how to use it when it is really needed? Quite often the uninformed people get killed, people who never dare to explore the limits when it is safe to do so. In this case you could get killed because you count on having 9 liters of reserve but don't know that in reality you can only use 4 liters of it, unless you know how to deal with it properly. And that under no circumstance you should switch to reserve too early and try to save some fuel in main for the landing. > In 14 years of > Europa flight I have had no reason to go anywhere near running out of > fuel. Maybe some day you will have. You are facing an unpredicted head wind over sea with no suitable airfield for an extra fuel stop. Or you have a faulty gasket in your carb and the engine is suddenly running rich and consuming more fuel than expected, or the choosen airfield is suddenly closed and you have to divert and are put in a holding pattern. Are you going to declare a fuel emergency because you have only 20 liters of fuel left? Why would you fly around with all this fuel if you are so sure you will never have to use it? You probably tried to built your airplane as light as possible, and now you are spoiling it by carrying around pounds of useless fuel? > How is it that some guys have to tape up the filler cap ? > Or extract litre's of water out because it was in a shower ? What would you do, leave the water in the tank? I'm sure that "someone" was not amused to find the water in his tank, and I think it is fully understandable that he from now on tapes of his fuel cap as an extra precaution to prevent water ingress. How can you be sure it will hever happen to you? Unless of course you keep your airplane sheltered and only take it out on a sunny day for a trip around the home field. Are you actually hosing over your aircraft anually for a few hours to see whether the fuel cap is really water tight, or are you just assuming the cap is tight and remains that way for the rest of its life? I'm happy that people are willing to share their experience, even if it sounds "stupid" to some who think they are wiser than the rest of us. I will be giving the fuel cap some more attention, thanks Bob! Frans ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:06 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank On 06/25/2013 12:33 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > My insurance is to have the long range tank and as you are well aware I > therefore fly slower, but I just dropped my carb needles back to where they > were fitted the spats and now fly more efficiently, I'm wishing I had done > that before our North Cape trip! Yep, I guess the extra fuel has been costing you almost as much as a carb overhaul. > PS any photos yet ? Ilona is working on it right now. We made (oh no, "took") so many pictures that it is quite a job to make a selection. (thanks for teaching us some proper English ;-) ). Frans ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:16 AM PST US From: David Watts Subject: Re: Europa-List: Powerflarm Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through a Butterfly Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo and very impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the vicinity that were transponding. I came straight home and bought a Butterfly Connect. As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option for a wifi iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from the iPad and we used that on our iPad 1 and the iPad 2. We have now got iPad Minis which are by far the best for flying and the have a proper GPS chip in them, although they will use the phone signal to improve the acquisition time if you have got the sim turned on. Quite frankly it gets a signal lightning quick with the sim turned off so there is no need for it to be on. As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what I have read. Dave Watts G-BXDY On 25 Jun 2013, at 11:25, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 06/25/2013 03:38 AM, Kevin Kedward wrote: >> >> Ps, Go buy Powerflarm so you don't crash into me or fall on me because you ran out of fuel. Kevin the safe one. > > Why would you go so dangerously close to other aircraft that you need > Powerflarm to avoid hitting them? > > Seriously, this is exactly what I'm planning to do (buying the > Powerflarm, not the "running out of fuel" part). > > On the North cape trip I saw some other pilots using an iPad mini with > SkyDemon, and I liked it so much that I also bought an iPad and SkyDemon > subscription. > With no Apple experience I made the mistake to buy the "wifi-only" iPad > model, assuming that I could use some remote bluetooth GPS antenna, or > even the GPS inside my Android phone as a starter, later to find out > that Apple simply sabotaged the possibility to use a generic external GPS. > > At the same time I had PowerFlarm high on my wish list. I already have a > transponder-detector but I regularly fly in the Alps where there are > many gliders and no radar coverage. And Powerflarm detects everything, > mode-C, mode-S, ADS-B and Flarm. So I was very pleased to receive a new > version of SkyDemon with Powerflarm support built in. > It seems to support input with the Butterfly connect device, which > communicates between the Powerflarm and Ipad via wifi. > > To avoid another buying mistake, I would like to hear if people have > experience with such a combination. > My intention is to buy the Garrecht TRX-1500, the Butterfly connect, and > have the information om my audio interface and Ipad running SkyDemon. If > this works well I don't need to have a dedicated powerflarm(-alike) > display in my panel. And I don't need yet another GPS-antenna just for > the iPad. > > Just a few questions: > 1) It looks like the Garrecht TRX-1500 is the same as Powerflarm, but > just a tad more optimised for use in powered aircraft than for gliders. > Is there a reason to use Butterfly instead of Garrecht? > 2) It looks like the Butterfly connect broadcasts not only traffic info > but also GPS info. Neither party (not even SkyDemon) is willing to > testify that I can use it to get SkyDemon working on the Ipad-wifi, but > they suggest "it should be" and that SkyDemon will use the broadcasted > GPS info (without Apple knowing that I violate their ban on receiving > GPS-info on my No-GPS model). > 3) How usable is the traffic info displayed via the SkyDemon? I have not > seen pictures of it, what is actually displayed when there is > conflicting traffic, but I like the idea to be able to see other > aircraft positioned on the moving map. > > Thanks in advance for any wise words on this. > > Frans > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:00 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Powerflarm On 06/25/2013 01:01 PM, David Watts wrote: > > > Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through a Butterfly > Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo and very > impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the vicinity that > were transponding. Ok, that sounds cool! > I came straight home and bought a Butterfly > Connect. Have you tried switching off the internal GPS, bad elf, or other sources and see whether the SkyDemon actually uses the GPS info from the Powerflarm? > As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option for a wifi > iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from the iPad I don't like this option because it means more wires, and all the GPS-antenna's want to be placed at the best position but half a meter away from other GPS antenna's, and since I'm operating an Europa and not a 747 it becomes complicated to place all these antenna's according to the manufacturers recommendations. So I really hope that the iPad can get all its information out of the wifi signal. > As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what I have > read. It is a brick with no display but just a bunch of antenna's, it seems to produce exactly the same information as the powerflarm and interfaces with all the displays, connects and other gadgets. I think I will mount it behind the D-panel where it has the least interference from engine/instrument panel and the best overall view of the sky. And since it broadcasts its information via wifi I only need to provide power to it (and run the audio cable to the headset plugs). Thanks, Frans ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:21 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Powerflarm One minor cautionary tale about Powerflarm type systems. Yesterday I had the excitement/privilege of flying over Central London 9 times at around 900ft passing close to and below(!!) the Shard, the Olympic stadium, etc on a NE/SW course turning at LAM and OCK. The plane was G-ENVR belonging to the Natural Environment Research Council and housed in my hangar. It was stuffed full of scientific kit to measure various pollutants, but also has very sophisticated avionics which make a big fuss when we got too close to the scenery or any other transponder equipped plane got anywhere near us ( and there were police and medical helicopters all over the place quite apart from multiple aircraft climbing out of London City airport). Our turning point at LAM meant that we were more or less running down the active runway at Stapleford and on the third time around they had an unpleasant surprise when a small plane taking off almost had us from below without setting off any alarm! The message is that it is possibly too easy to come to rely on a system covering less than 100% and forget the common sense means of avoiding collisions. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 13:25:39 +0200 Frans Veldman wrote: > > > On 06/25/2013 01:01 PM, David Watts wrote: >> >> >> Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through >>a Butterfly >> Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo >>and very >> impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the >>vicinity that >> were transponding. > > Ok, that sounds cool! > >> I came straight home and bought a Butterfly >> Connect. > > Have you tried switching off the internal GPS, bad elf, >or other sources > and see whether the SkyDemon actually uses the GPS info >from the Powerflarm? > >> As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option >>for a wifi >> iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from >>the iPad > > I don't like this option because it means more wires, >and all the > GPS-antenna's want to be placed at the best position but >half a meter > away from other GPS antenna's, and since I'm operating >an Europa and not > a 747 it becomes complicated to place all these >antenna's according to > the manufacturers recommendations. > So I really hope that the iPad can get all its >information out of the > wifi signal. > >> As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what >>I have >> read. > > It is a brick with no display but just a bunch of >antenna's, it seems to > produce exactly the same information as the powerflarm >and interfaces > with all the displays, connects and other gadgets. I >think I will mount > it behind the D-panel where it has the least >interference from > engine/instrument panel and the best overall view of the >sky. And since > it broadcasts its information via wifi I only need to >provide power to > it (and run the audio cable to the headset plugs). > > Thanks, >Frans > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:06 AM PST US From: Kevin Klinefelter Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Bob, I advance the throttle about half also, and it fired right up. It seems easy to keep my left hand on the stick after switching on, push the nose down and right hand on the throttle to start. Kevin On Jun 25, 2013, at 3:10 AM, "Bob Harrison" wrote: > > Thanks for that Kevin don't suppose you remember what you did with the > throttle do you ? ......Mine starts hot on the ground with half throttle > just instantly. > I don't believe it's necessary for each one of us to experiment when the > information is readily available(except there will be a slight variation > between different props as well as engines obviously the main ting is to get > it restarted and surely the starter would be more instantaneous and the > windmill effect would only be needed in the event of the starter failing for > whatever reason .. Actually I'm surprised it starts anyway with the gearbox > effect! The Direct drive on the Jabiru was as if nothing had happened!. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin > Klinefelter > Sent: 25 June 2013 00:30 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank > > --> > > Hi Terry and all, > I stopped my 914 a couple days ago,feathered the Airmaster and went for a > long glide. Windmill start happens at about 90 knots. > > I was doing touch and goes a while back in my Mono and ran out of fuel on > the main just after liftoff. No problem, I just landed on the remaining > runway, but that really got me thinking! I didn't realize my fuel was quite > that low. So now my Takeoff and Landing checklist includes fuel selector on > reserve. > > Kevin > > On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" > wrote: > >> --> >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and > the Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, > and once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 > knots. This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so > your numbers may vary from this. >> >> Regards, >> Terry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob >> Harrison >> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >> >> --> >> >> Hi! Terry /all. >> I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I > have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position > for a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped > the siphon from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later > over the Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence! >> Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered >> flight pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft >> before the engine windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me >> asked what we would do to which I replied "you will need to turn round >> in your seat and pump that siphon hand ball to re-establish the siphon >> like you are milking a cow (or something like that !) When I could see >> the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to main tank but >> actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was full to >> over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight >> re-start with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt >> providence ! If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a >> 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real > service. >> Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop > with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of > an abrupt un intended engine stop ? >> Happy Days ! >> Best regards >> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry >> Seaver >> (terrys) >> Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >> >> --> >> >> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run > out, then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure > in a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind > milling. After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high > RPMs because the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the > engine cut out, and took some time to recover once the engine restarted. >> The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before > switching in the reserve tank. >> >> Regards, >> Terry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & >> Svein Johnsen >> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >> >> --> >> >> Graeme, >> >> What we need to keep in mind is the following: >> >> When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per >> hour at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the >> reserve tank (i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and >> flow back over the saddle into the main tank. This ensures that the >> reserve tank is always full, even if we should fly a little >> uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence, and >> the net drain from the main tank is >> 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be). >> >> What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have > decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the >> reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters >> in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the > last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time. >> If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we > switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an > hour before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the > main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore! >> Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, > but the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank > because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 > minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are > conscious about this, and switches back to reserve again). >> >> What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main > tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve > just in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve > tank. >> >> I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and > the sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one > from the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by > a crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by > an insect or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the > tank and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous > the sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in > the standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of > the outlets. >> >> ///////// >> >> About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the > fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return > flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had > the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report! >> >> Regards, >> Svein >> LN-SKJ > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:11 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe (Free)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Powerflarm Except when flying under flight plan (like IFR in IFR corridors) you are not 100% collision free, and even there :-( But these systems help and make us more comfortable like HIS and RMI and GPS for direction or even AI and ASI... Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de David Joyce >> The message is that it is possibly too easy to come to rely on a system covering less than 100% and forget the common sense means of avoiding collisions. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:15 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Powerflarm On 06/25/2013 02:45 PM, David Joyce wrote: > One minor cautionary tale about Powerflarm type systems. Nobody suggest that you don't have to look yourself anymore. Until now I had a mode-C based traffic detector. Although I always fly with my wife and we are both pilot, and have the rule that only one of us looks at the map/instuments at a time so there is always at least one pair of eyes outside, most of the traffic is spotted earlier by the traffic watch than by us. It is stunning how much traffic we simply miss and never would have noticed without traffic watch. Only in a very minor amount of cases it is the other way around. In these cases it is often "something" without transponder, or low flying in mountenais terrain where the radar interrogation doesn't reach the transponder, or when there is too much traffic around and the traffic watch focusses on the wrong (further away) aircraft. These failures are mostly due to the nature of mode-C detection, but with Flarm, ADS-B and mode-S the detection rate and accuracy will be much better. (too bad that in the UK it is not allowed to use the ADS-B capability of your transponder, but in most other countries more and more people are using it. For those who don't know what it is: wth ADS-B the transponder not only broadcasts the altitude but also the GPS coordinates, giving a highly accurate 3D position of the aircraft. Advanced computations can then calculate whether a nearby aircraft is a potential threat or not, similar to the Flarm system). Frans ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank From: Kevin Kedward Guys The only reason for being that low on fuel is if some other aircraft has put bullet holes in your tank :) Regards Kevin Sent from my iPad On 25 Jun 2013, at 11:00, "Frans Veldman" wrote: > > On 06/25/2013 03:26 AM, Kevin Kedward wrote: > >> Gentlemen , I'm stunned by this discussion. Why would you wish to go >> anywhere near running out of fuel? > > I guess it is nobody's wish but it sometimes happens. That is why we > have a reserve after all, to use it when it is needed. Some of us > (mostly the frequent flyers, the people that travel long distances and > explore the world with their Europa) have had to use the reserve fuel, > and that is why we have the reserve fuel after all. Nobody has crashed. > Be happy that some people are able to describe what happens when you are > low on fuel and how to get the most out of your reserve fuel. > > In my case it was at my homefield, I had radio contact with them, knew > that I could land there (with many suitable farmer fields on the way to > it), with a very accurate fuel flow sensor (and return flow sensor, no > guessing here!), fuel computer with GPS ground speed input, fuel flow > and fuel level, calibrated tank sensors with a resolution of 1 liter. It > was a highly reliable exercise in a very safe and predictable > environment and I arrived with the exact amount of fuel as calculated. > I'm happy to have had this experience, so I know that I can and know how > to actually use my reserve in the event of a genuine unforseen situation. > >> This talk about >> changing from one side of the tank and guessing what is sloshing >> about in the reserve is crazy and what kills people. > > No, it saves people. Maybe some day someone runs nearly out of fuel and > remembers this discussion, that you can't use the 9 liters of fuel > unless you switch back to main to retrieve the sloshed over fuel. > What't the idea of carrying around some pounds of fuel for an emergency > if you don't know how to use it when it is really needed? > Quite often the uninformed people get killed, people who never dare to > explore the limits when it is safe to do so. In this case you could get > killed because you count on having 9 liters of reserve but don't know > that in reality you can only use 4 liters of it, unless you know how to > deal with it properly. And that under no circumstance you should switch > to reserve too early and try to save some fuel in main for the landing. > >> In 14 years of >> Europa flight I have had no reason to go anywhere near running out >> of fuel. > > Maybe some day you will have. You are facing an unpredicted head wind > over sea with no suitable airfield for an extra fuel stop. Or you have a > faulty gasket in your carb and the engine is suddenly running rich and > consuming more fuel than expected, or the choosen airfield is suddenly > closed and you have to divert and are put in a holding pattern. Are you > going to declare a fuel emergency because you have only 20 liters of > fuel left? > > Why would you fly around with all this fuel if you are so sure you will > never have to use it? You probably tried to built your airplane as light > as possible, and now you are spoiling it by carrying around pounds of > useless fuel? > >> How is it that some guys have to tape up the filler cap ? >> Or extract litre's of water out because it was in a shower ? > > What would you do, leave the water in the tank? I'm sure that "someone" > was not amused to find the water in his tank, and I think it is fully > understandable that he from now on tapes of his fuel cap as an extra > precaution to prevent water ingress. > > How can you be sure it will hever happen to you? Unless of course you > keep your airplane sheltered and only take it out on a sunny day for a > trip around the home field. Are you actually hosing over your aircraft > anually for a few hours to see whether the fuel cap is really water > tight, or are you just assuming the cap is tight and remains that way > for the rest of its life? > > I'm happy that people are willing to share their experience, even if it > sounds "stupid" to some who think they are wiser than the rest of us. > > I will be giving the fuel cap some more attention, thanks Bob! > > Frans > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:36 AM PST US From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Hi Kevin, Sorry to alarm you with my crazy behavior, but our Europa is legally a motor glider, and as such, we do on occasion shut the engine down (and feather the prop). The first time was in gliding range of the old Castle Air Force base with a 12,000 foot runway. Even with the short wings installed, I feel it quite appropriate to explore the power off/on and reserve tank behavior, under controlled conditions, or course. It is, after all, an experimental aircraft, which makes us all test pilots, I believe. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Kedward Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Gentlemen , I'm stunned by this discussion. Why would you wish to go anywhere near running out of fuel? I would never take p2 with you or allow my family to take a flight with any of you!!. This talk about changing from one side of the tank and guessing what is sloshing about in the reserve is crazy and what kills people. In 14 years of Europa flight I have had no reason to go anywhere near running out of fuel. How is it that some guys have to tape up the filler cap ? Or extract litre's of water out because it was in a shower ? It's news to me.... I think I'll buy an umbrella :) Kevin the safe one. Sent from my iPhone On 25 Jun 2013, at 00:30, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > --> > > Hi Terry and all, > I stopped my 914 a couple days ago,feathered the Airmaster and went for a long glide. Windmill start happens at about 90 knots. > > I was doing touch and goes a while back in my Mono and ran out of fuel on the main just after liftoff. No problem, I just landed on the remaining runway, but that really got me thinking! I didn't realize my fuel was quite that low. So now my Takeoff and Landing checklist includes fuel selector on reserve. > > Kevin > > On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" wrote: > >> --> >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots. This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers may vary from this. >> >> Regards, >> Terry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob >> Harrison >> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >> >> --> >> >> Hi! Terry /all. >> I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence! >> Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered >> flight pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft >> before the engine windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me >> asked what we would do to which I replied "you will need to turn >> round in your seat and pump that siphon hand ball to re-establish the >> siphon like you are milking a cow (or something like that !) When I >> could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to main >> tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew >> was full to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an >> in flight re-start with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like >> to tempt providence ! If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a >> 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service. >> Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt un intended engine stop ? >> Happy Days ! >> Best regards >> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry >> Seaver >> (terrys) >> Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >> >> --> >> >> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out, then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and took some time to recover once the engine restarted. >> The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in the reserve tank. >> >> Regards, >> Terry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & >> Svein Johnsen >> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >> >> --> >> >> Graeme, >> >> What we need to keep in mind is the following: >> >> When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out >> per hour at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to >> the reserve tank (i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), >> and flow back over the saddle into the main tank. This ensures that >> the reserve tank is always full, even if we should fly a little >> uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence, and >> the net drain from the main tank is >> 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be). >> >> What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the >> reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters >> in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time. >> If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore! >> Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and switches back to reserve again). >> >> What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank. >> >> I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets. >> >> ///////// >> >> About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report! >> >> Regards, >> Svein >> LN-SKJ > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:37 AM PST US From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank Hi Bob, One of the reasons Dave and I built the Europa was the promise of a motor glider option, later on. Even before buying the long wing kit, we felt it appropriate to test some important issues. For example, if you run the battery dead while motor gliding with the engine off, can you do an 'air' start with a geared engine, and could you get it to stop wind milling during power off souring. Both questions were answered in a very controlled experiment at altitude over a 12,000 foot runway. We were quite satisfied with the results. It will stop wind milling (at about 55 kts) for souring, and can be air restarted by pushing the nose down a little to get a speed greater than normal for souring (about 110 kts). The glider pilots out there are probably not quite as nervous about flying REALLY quiet airplanes. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 3:22 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Thanks for that Terry, I'm a bit of a wimp and not ashamed to admit it ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver (terrys) Sent: 24 June 2013 22:25 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Hi Bob, We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots. This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers may vary from this. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Hi! Terry /all. I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence! Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered flight pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft before the engine windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me asked what we would do to which I replied "you will need to turn round in your seat and pump that siphon hand ball to re-establish the siphon like you are milking a cow (or something like that !) When I could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to main tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew was full to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an in flight re-start with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like to tempt providence ! If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service. Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt un intended engine stop ? Happy Days ! Best regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver (terrys) Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out, then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and took some time to recover once the engine restarted. The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in the reserve tank. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank --> Graeme, What we need to keep in mind is the following: When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out per hour at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to the reserve tank (i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), and flow back over the saddle into the main tank. This ensures that the reserve tank is always full, even if we should fly a little uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence, and the net drain from the main tank is 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be). What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time. If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore! Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and switches back to reserve again). What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank. I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets. ///////// About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report! Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank From: Kevin Kedward Hi Terry, A 12000 Ft runway ? Cool no problem, pleased read my other e-mail to you. Take care Kevin Sent from my iPad On 25 Jun 2013, at 17:27, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" wrote: > > Hi Kevin, > > Sorry to alarm you with my crazy behavior, but our Europa is legally a motor glider, and as such, we do on occasion shut the engine down (and feather the prop). The first time was in gliding range of the old Castle Air Force base with a 12,000 foot runway. > Even with the short wings installed, I feel it quite appropriate to explore the power off/on and reserve tank behavior, under controlled conditions, or course. It is, after all, an experimental aircraft, which makes us all test pilots, I believe. > > Regards, > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Kedward > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 6:26 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank > > > Gentlemen , > I'm stunned by this discussion. Why would you wish to go anywhere near running out of fuel? I would never take p2 with you or allow my family to take a flight with any of you!!. This talk about changing from one side of the tank and guessing what is sloshing about in the reserve is crazy and what kills people. In 14 years of Europa flight I have had no reason to go anywhere near running out of fuel. How is it that some guys have to tape up the filler cap ? Or extract litre's of water out because it was in a shower ? It's news to me.... I think I'll buy an umbrella :) Kevin the safe one. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 25 Jun 2013, at 00:30, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > >> --> >> >> Hi Terry and all, >> I stopped my 914 a couple days ago,feathered the Airmaster and went for a long glide. Windmill start happens at about 90 knots. >> >> I was doing touch and goes a while back in my Mono and ran out of fuel on the main just after liftoff. No problem, I just landed on the remaining runway, but that really got me thinking! I didn't realize my fuel was quite that low. So now my Takeoff and Landing checklist includes fuel selector on reserve. >> >> Kevin >> >> On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Terry Seaver (terrys)" wrote: >> >>> --> >>> >>> Hi Bob, >>> >>> We have shut the engine down in flight with both the Whirlwind CS prop and the Airmaster. In both cases, the prop stops turning just above 50 knots, and once stopped, does not begin wind milling again until a little over 100 knots. This is with the 912S, which has higher compression than the 914, so your numbers may vary from this. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Terry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob >>> Harrison >>> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:48 PM >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Hi! Terry /all. >>> I had an unplanned such event but with the direct drive Jabiru 6 fitted. I have a long range tank fitted and although full did a wing over to position for a photos shoot of a hotel as we left Majorca. Unbeknown that stopped the siphon from the long range tank to the main tank , About 2 hours later over the Pyranees to the West Spanish coast we suddenly had total silence! >>> Which is about the most sensitive thing that can happen to a powered >>> flight pilot ! I estimate I lost about 50 feet of my then 5,000ft >>> before the engine windmilled to start immediately. My friend with me >>> asked what we would do to which I replied "you will need to turn >>> round in your seat and pump that siphon hand ball to re-establish the >>> siphon like you are milking a cow (or something like that !) When I >>> could see the gauge was back reasonable again we switched to main >>> tank but actually landed on the reserve tank by which time we knew >>> was full to over flow the saddle. I must say I have never tried an >>> in flight re-start with the gearbox Rotax Engine, I just don't like >>> to tempt providence ! If someone has the minimum windmill speed of a >>> 914 Rotax I'll be obliged to know ? and you would be doing me a real service. >>> Also If Mark Burton is reading this would he advise if the Woodcomp Prop with the Smart Controller is likely to motor to fully fine in the event of an abrupt un intended engine stop ? >>> Happy Days ! >>> Best regards >>> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry >>> Seaver >>> (terrys) >>> Sent: 24 June 2013 19:19 >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >>> >>> --> >>> >>> I have one comment on the subject of allowing the main to completely run out, then switching to the reserve. We did that once to check the procedure in a safe, controlled, environment. The engine quit but was still wind milling. After switching to reserve, the engine restarted and went to high RPMs because the Airmaster CS prop had gone to full fine pitch when the engine cut out, and took some time to recover once the engine restarted. >>> The lesson of the story is, pull the throttle back to idle before switching in the reserve tank. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Terry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & >>> Svein Johnsen >>> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:29 PM >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: SV: Europa-List: Use of reserve tank >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Graeme, >>> >>> What we need to keep in mind is the following: >>> >>> When we run off the main tank, about 28-30 liters of fuel goes out >>> per hour at cruise power (912ULS). Abt 10 of these liters return to >>> the reserve tank (i.e. abt 1/3 of the total flow out of the tank), >>> and flow back over the saddle into the main tank. This ensures that >>> the reserve tank is always full, even if we should fly a little >>> uncoordinated once in while or experience some bumpy turbulence, and >>> the net drain from the main tank is >>> 18-20 liters (or whatever the cruise consumption may be). >>> >>> What we should NOT do is switching to the reserve tank before we have decided that "OK, this is it for the main tank, from now on it's only the >>> reserve tank that will take me home." Take the following case: 9 liters >>> in the reserve, 11 liters in the main. If this were the case during the last part of a flight, we have 20 liters total, i.e. one hour's flying time. >>> If due to uncertainty about actual volume remaining in the main tank, we switch to the reserve tank (9 liters), then we have a little under half an hour before the engine tells you something. If we now switch back to the main tank, we suddenly do not have 11 liters consumable fuel there anymore! >>> Why not? Because about 1/3 of that fuel is returned to the reserve tank, but the returned volume does not any more overflow into the main tank because the reserve tank first needs to be filled to its top. 10-15 minutes' flying time is thus lost, which could be critical (unless we are conscious about this, and switches back to reserve again). >>> >>> What it all boils down to is knowing how much you have left in the main tank, so we can confidently run this tank almost empty and switch to reserve just in time before the engine tells you to, and then stay on the reserve tank. >>> >>> I completely trust my fuel totalizer (feed and return flow senders) and the sight tube. By the way, I have connected the two vent tubes (the one from the top of the sight tube and the one to the top of the filler neck) by a crossover tube at their highest point. If one inlet should be blocked by an insect or whatever, the other will provide equal pressure on top of the tank and on top of the fuel in the sight tube. It is amazing how erroneous the sight tube reading gets even with a very small pressure difference in the standard tubing arrangement - just try it by blowing gently into one of the outlets. >>> >>> ///////// >>> >>> About return flow: I mentioned early this spring that I would re-wire the fuel flow system so that I could get temporary direct reading of the return flow only. I have the relay deck and the push button, but just have not had the time to wire it in ........ Will do - will report! >>> >>> Regards, >>> Svein >>> LN-SKJ > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:05 AM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: wing pins/sockets I have written a challenge about a week ago regarding trying to free a tapered pintle jammed in to the port wing bushing group. More on that later. However, in the process of building my Europa, we changed from 3/8inch wing pins to 1/2inch jobs. This invoved removing and replacing the bushings - and I had a pin made (say 6inches long) which was 3/8inch for 3 inches and then 1/2inch for the remaining 3. This way, the bushings were exchanged by tacking the spars together for spacing/siting. I now have three potential wing pin forms, the 3/8-1/2 one, the company-supplied starboard hand pin, and the company pip-pin model for the port side. Call them A, B.and C. A measures 0.491", B is 0.496" and C is 0.498". in the port fuselage bushing, C is 'stickier' than either A or B - but not by much. The measurements are pretty accurately done by three of us, two licensed mechs and Yours Humbly.. AND YET. when these are presented to the spar bushings, they rattle around like a whistle pea. I am not familiar with such freedom of travel and beg to ask if this sounds usual. afellow speculations gratefully received (Bud, say something) Cheers, Ferg P.S: The tapered pintle spree is soon to be released. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:03 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Use of reserve tank From: "graeme bird" yep as with any vehicle you have to find your range, especially if you intend to tour and in less inhabited areas. 68ltrs is not a huge tank at 17ltrs per hour. Even in Scotland its quite hard to find fuel. I thought I had fuel for 3:45, but I was down to 11 ltrs after 3:10. I thought I would average 115kts but with a stop and taxi etc it was 102kts. I am also cautious though and had 20ltrs in a can in case I had to 'put down' somewhere. On the prop stopping, I am sure that on one of the promo videos they stop and start the engine - as if we should all be doing it! very interesting that it can be started at 100kts. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403417#403417 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:29 PM PST US From: David Watts Subject: Re: Europa-List: Powerflarm I can't do Flarm test as I have not got it yet. As for the Bad Elf or even the iPad antenna needing to be spaced half metre apart from other GPS antenna, I currently run 4 GPSs in my Europa, a panel mount Skyforce, 2 Mini iPads and my HTC smartphone (the last 3 all running Skydemon). Now there is no way you can get half metre separation on that lot in a Europa and I have never had any GPS problems. Dave Watts G-BXDY On 25 Jun 2013, at 12:25, Frans Veldman wrote: > > On 06/25/2013 01:01 PM, David Watts wrote: >> >> >> Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through a Butterfly >> Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo and very >> impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the vicinity that >> were transponding. > > Ok, that sounds cool! > >> I came straight home and bought a Butterfly >> Connect. > > Have you tried switching off the internal GPS, bad elf, or other sources > and see whether the SkyDemon actually uses the GPS info from the Powerflarm? > >> As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option for a wifi >> iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from the iPad > > I don't like this option because it means more wires, and all the > GPS-antenna's want to be placed at the best position but half a meter > away from other GPS antenna's, and since I'm operating an Europa and not > a 747 it becomes complicated to place all these antenna's according to > the manufacturers recommendations. > So I really hope that the iPad can get all its information out of the > wifi signal. > >> As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what I have >> read. > > It is a brick with no display but just a bunch of antenna's, it seems to > produce exactly the same information as the powerflarm and interfaces > with all the displays, connects and other gadgets. I think I will mount > it behind the D-panel where it has the least interference from > engine/instrument panel and the best overall view of the sky. And since > it broadcasts its information via wifi I only need to provide power to > it (and run the audio cable to the headset plugs). > > Thanks, > Frans > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:23 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Use of reserve tank On 06/25/2013 09:54 PM, graeme bird wrote: > On the prop stopping, I am sure that on one of the promo videos they > stop and start the engine - as if we should all be doing it! The same Rotax engine is used in quite a few motor gliders, and these folks stop and start the engine in flight as normal practice. 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