Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:29 AM - Immersion suits? (gtagr)
2. 01:06 PM - Re: Immersion suits? (graeme bird)
3. 01:10 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter)
4. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Frans Veldman)
5. 02:38 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter)
6. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (houlihan)
7. 03:52 PM - Re: Immersion suits? (David Joyce)
8. 05:37 PM - Re: Immersion suits? (Kevin Kedward)
9. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Kingsley Hurst)
10. 10:40 PM - Re: Immersion suits? (gtagr)
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| Subject: | Immersion suits? |
Fellow Europa flyers,
Am planning a trip up to the Shetland Isles 6-14th July for which some of the transits
(longest perhaps 30mins) are over water. Thinking about ditching and
surviveability, can anyone recommend or advise on the hire or loan of immersion
suits - as I'd rather not buy for this one trip. My first over water stretch
is from Banff to Wick (departure Fishburn) and the second and subsequent is
Wick to Kirkwall, Sumburgh and various other leg sections up to Baltasound airport
on Unst - and back of course. Have new (and registered) PLB, and lifejackets.
Also, if anyone knows, what might the additional weight of two immersions
suits be?
All advice/comments/tips based upon experience, welcome.
Clive Sutton G-TAGR
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403573#403573
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| Subject: | Re: Immersion suits? |
I brought two crewsaver ones last year with the cross front zip waist to shoulder.
The wife couldn't bear to have hers on, so that went back. Never tried mine
except in the pool - I imagine it could be very warm if the sun was out, also
would need some shoes that would cover the rubber feet ends. Since I brought
them I read DJ's articles and wondered if a dinghy wouldn't have been a better
investment. I shopped around and paid around 230 I think. He mentioned a cheaper
fishing suit arrangement if I recal.
what size are you? I am 5ft 10 12.5 stone, mr medium.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Bud.
Having read all the post on this, I am beginning to think I should have bought
a Cessna 150.
Ref ,
"Just check it and be sure. It is not hard to change out the wing pin, pip pin
or socket hole."
What do you have to do, Ream out oversize holes in the spares bushes,
to the size of the new pip pins, and do they come in a few different thicknesses
?
And with regards to the front pin which locates the front of the wing into the
fuselage, I would say this pin wants to pull out, ie from drag on the wing, why
is there no pipe]pin here.
I would say the rear one is in compression so keeps itself in.
Regards.
Alan
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
On 06/28/2013 10:10 PM, Alan Carter wrote:
> What do you have to do, Ream out oversize holes in the spares bushes,
> to the size of the new pip pins, and do they come in a few different thicknesses
?
I would not ream out the spar bushes; imagine your next pin has a
slightly smaller diameter. Instead sand/polish the new pin a bit until
it fits.
But first of all, check whether the pin will fit in the various unrigged
parts. If it fits, then it is an alignment problem. And yes, you can
solve that problem as well but this involves some carefull realignment
of the bushes.
> And with regards to the front pin which locates the front of the wing into the
fuselage, I would say this pin wants to pull out, ie from drag on the wing,
why is there no pipe]pin here.
If I recall correctly the wings want to fold forewards, escpecially on
high AOA's. Furthermore, there is already a pip pin in the rear pin, and
the sockets are connected to each other via a bar. The front pin can
never fall out of its socket.
If you would put a pip pin in the front pin, you would tranfer the loads
of the fuselage onto the wing root, as the wing root is stiffer than the
fuselage. The fuselage is not designed to take sideway loads near the
front pin, there is no stifness there, so it could never offer any
stability to the wing.
Frans
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Frans.
Never built one, so just using my eye.
When I stick my arm out of a car window it wants to go back inline with the bodywork.
So tension at the front and compression at the rear,
hence this mod of putting a bar between the two rear locator sockets.
My eye tells me that the front pin ,if not for the rigidity of the wing, the front
pin is trying to pull out.
So can you give some simple reasoning why this is no so, as I said I am only using
my eye.
Regards.
Alan
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Alan.
You are , in this instance wrong , the bar between the rear drag pins is
designed to be in tension not compression.
Frans is completely correct , Sometimes eyes are not enough.
Tim
On 28 June 2013 22:37, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
> >
>
> Hi Frans.
> Never built one, so just using my eye.
> When I stick my arm out of a car window it wants to go back inline with
> the bodywork.
> So tension at the front and compression at the rear,
> hence this mod of putting a bar between the two rear locator sockets.
> My eye tells me that the front pin ,if not for the rigidity of the wing,
> the front pin is trying to pull out.
> So can you give some simple reasoning why this is no so, as I said I am
> only using my eye.
> Regards.
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403584#403584
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Immersion suits? |
Clive, I would certainly opt to borrow or hire a dinghy
rather than suits - you can then be comfortable flying.
The water temp around N of Scotland is currently in 10 to
12C region which is not cold enough to be incapacitating
if you get wet. It is all pretty remote up there and I
would fancy my chances quite a bit more with a dinghy,(in
which you could expect to survive 3 days or more) rather
than suits in which you might survive a couple of hours or
so, assuming the plane sank(which it almost certainly
won't) and assuming you were not picked up very quickly
(possible, but with PLB and the sense to give them your
GPS position on the way down, hopefully not too likely). I
would offer you mine but am clinging to the hope that I
might get the weather to try a bit of Dawn to Dusk action
one or other of the two weekends you plan to be away, and
if so I might well be passing overhead! Regards, David
Joyce, G- XSDJ
On Fri, 28 Jun 2013 11:28:30 -0700
"gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com> wrote:
><clive.maf@googlemail.com>
>
>Fellow Europa flyers,
>
> Am planning a trip up to the Shetland Isles 6-14th July
>for which some of the transits (longest perhaps 30mins)
>are over water. Thinking about ditching and
>surviveability, can anyone recommend or advise on the
>hire or loan of immersion suits - as I'd rather not buy
>for this one trip. My first over water stretch is from
>Banff to Wick (departure Fishburn) and the second and
>subsequent is Wick to Kirkwall, Sumburgh and various
>other leg sections up to Baltasound airport on Unst - and
>back of course. Have new (and registered) PLB, and
>lifejackets. Also, if anyone knows, what might the
>additional weight of two immersions suits be?
>
> All advice/comments/tips based upon experience, welcome.
>
> Clive Sutton G-TAGR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403573#403573
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Immersion suits? |
Hi Guys,
Clive. 10 years ago I toured in my own plane with several aviators
a lot wiser than I to Majorca/ Ibiza /Espana . A great mentor to me at
the time was Tony ( RESECT )Smyth. He took his prized Europa to South Africa
just for fun :). We were dining one night and Tony gave us all a presentation
of his experience of a sea ditching survival course he had done.....WELL
we laughted our heads off as this was done in a swimming pool. He and his fellow
pupils found it nigh on Impossible( and Tony had the great build ) to get
into the wet slippery dingy LOL. I think that if you are not 30ish and super
fit and trained to survive, don't think ( how old are you ? ) that if you have
the gear you will live !!..... The risk is yours
Take care
Kevin
to get into the bright new dingy :)
Sent from my iPad
On 28 Jun 2013, at 23:56, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Clive, I would certainly opt to borrow or hire a dinghy rather than suits - you
can then be comfortable flying. The water temp around N of Scotland is currently
in 10 to 12C region which is not cold enough to be incapacitating if you
get wet. It is all pretty remote up there and I would fancy my chances quite
a bit more with a dinghy,(in which you could expect to survive 3 days or more)
rather than suits in which you might survive a couple of hours or so, assuming
the plane sank(which it almost certainly won't) and assuming you were not picked
up very quickly (possible, but with PLB and the sense to give them your GPS
position on the way down, hopefully not too likely). I would offer you mine
but am clinging to the hope that I might get the weather to try a bit of Dawn
to Dusk action one or other of the two weekends you plan to be away, and if so
I might well be passing overhead! Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ
>
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2013 11:28:30 -0700
> "gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Fellow Europa flyers,
>> Am planning a trip up to the Shetland Isles 6-14th July for which some of the
transits (longest perhaps 30mins) are over water. Thinking about ditching and
surviveability, can anyone recommend or advise on the hire or loan of immersion
suits - as I'd rather not buy for this one trip. My first over water stretch
is from Banff to Wick (departure Fishburn) and the second and subsequent
is Wick to Kirkwall, Sumburgh and various other leg sections up to Baltasound
airport on Unst - and back of course. Have new (and registered) PLB, and lifejackets.
Also, if anyone knows, what might the additional weight of two immersions
suits be? All advice/comments/tips based upon experience, welcome. Clive
Sutton G-TAGR
>> Read this topic online here:
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403573#403573
>> Un/Subscription,
>> Forums!
>> Admin.
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hello Alan,
> What do you have to do, Ream out oversize holes in the spares bushes,
None of the bushes or fittings should have to be reamed. If pins don't fit,
the problem is one of alignment.
> And with regards to the front pin which locates the front of the wing into
> the fuselage, I would say this pin wants to pull out, ie from drag on the
> wing, why is there no pipe]pin here.
> I would say the rear one is in compression so keeps itself in.
Correct and also Incorrect.
In normal level flight, what you are saying is correct however, at high
angles of attack, the wing then pulls forwards. If you have trouble
understanding this, ask yourself why the blades of an autogyro don't rotate
in the opposite direction to what they do.
Cheers
Kingsley
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| Subject: | Re: Immersion suits? |
All,
Thanks for the replies and views.
Ex work colleague Mark Albery (of recent Atlantic crossing fame) has kindly offered to lend me his 2-place dinghy, which in light of David's comments seems the better option, especially as its apparently just 5kg. My Europa has foam wings, I have sensible buoyancy aids, a PLB and will be taking as high a point-to-point overland route as possible. Mark advises that SEMS Aerosafe of Basildon hies out survival gear at sensible prices (e.g. 40/wk for a raft), see: https://www.aerosafe.co.uk/acatalog/HIRE.html
Clive, G-TAGR
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