Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:56 AM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (houlihan)
2. 01:29 AM - Re: Gumpy visits Wales (& there be dragons Kevin) (Carl Pattinson)
3. 01:55 AM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Roger Sheridan)
4. 02:41 AM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter)
5. 06:31 AM - Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor (richard)
6. 06:54 AM - Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem (richard)
7. 07:22 AM - SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
8. 07:29 AM - Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem (Fred Klein)
9. 07:37 AM - Re: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Frans Veldman)
10. 07:43 AM - Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem (Frans Veldman)
11. 07:53 AM - Re: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
12. 08:05 AM - Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem (Bob Harrison)
13. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Frans Veldman)
14. 08:24 AM - SV: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
15. 08:37 AM - SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins - ADDITION (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
16. 09:23 AM - Re: SV: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Raimo Toivio)
17. 09:49 AM - Re: SV: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Frans Veldman)
18. 10:00 AM - SV: SV: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
19. 10:05 AM - Water ballast (andrew cullum)
20. 10:36 AM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter)
21. 10:49 AM - SV: SV: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
22. 03:25 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (rparigoris)
23. 03:54 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter)
24. 11:01 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
25. 11:06 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
26. 11:23 PM - SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Alan.
A few comments,
1, wings that have been demonstrated to fly OK for many thousands of hours
do not usualy fail in normal flight , it should only happen in extreme
circumstances so forget about your 1 "G" straight and level situation.
2, your comments about the WW2 bomber do not demonstrate failure due to
aerodynamic loading., During the bomb release phase of flight it would be
in 1"G" straight and level flight. the failure occurred because the
fuselage holding the wings apart was removed allowing them to react as you
describe.
3, there are lots of things in life I do not understand like high energy
physics and brain surgery but when people who know about these things try
and explain to me I try to listen and learn. you seem to have rejected all
the explanations put forward by knowledgeable contributors to this forum.
So when you find the answer from other sources please let us know the
outcome so that we can all learn something.
4, If a Cessna 150 was over stressed in a high "G" maneuver to the extent
that the mainplanes failed they would also fold forwards and upwards
probably outboard of the struts..
Tim
On 1 July 2013 01:01, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
> >
>
> Hi Graham.
> I understand a little in what you a saying.
> In the tail slip the wing is falling backwards to normal flight condition.
> The pin would stop the wing from pulling out.
>
> But in normal level flight i see this bar in compression.
> At this moment in time, i just can not see how you would get a forward
> force.
>
> I find Europa.s notes mentioning words like "tie bar",
> but i find many of Europa,s notes not to clear as to exactly what the
> situation is.
>
> I think this bar is say, in compression 90% of the time and 10% in tension
> some of the time, hence the pin.
> But what the hell do i know, but im not giving up yet.
>
> Need a little micro transducer between the front wing root to see which
> the bios is.
>
> Best Regards.
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403665#403665
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Gumpy visits Wales (& there be dragons Kevin) |
Talybont used to be owned by Bill Wynn, one of our first Europa builders and
past Europa Club chairman (for many years).
There was always a welcome for Europa owners wanting to drop in for a cup of
tea and a chat.
Don't have his contact details any more but might be in Pooleys or the farm
strip guide.
Many in the Europa community knew Bill well and may still be in contact.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird
Sent: 30 June 2013 16:11
Subject: Europa-List: Gumpy visits Wales (& there be dragons Kevin)
Some great views yesterday approaching Welshpool over Church Stretton, Long
Mynd and then west to the coast at Aberdovey. Turned back before Talybont -
anyone landed there?
Look you though; there were hills, and clouds.
Been thinking about the stopping the prop discussion. Gliders also like the
hills, threatening clouds and thermal weather. Things we power pilots all
seem to shy away from.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403650#403650
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc03443_1_145.jpg
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Surely in gliding flight the wings must be pulling the fuselage
forwards..........otherwise you would stop!
On 1 Jul 2013, at 08:55, houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Alan.
>
> A few comments,
> 1, wings that have been demonstrated to fly OK for many thousands of
hours do not usualy fail in normal flight , it should only happen in
extreme circumstances so forget about your 1 "G" straight and level
situation.
>
> 2, your comments about the WW2 bomber do not demonstrate failure due
to aerodynamic loading., During the bomb release phase of flight it
would be in 1"G" straight and level flight. the failure occurred because
the fuselage holding the wings apart was removed allowing them to react
as you describe.
>
> 3, there are lots of things in life I do not understand like high
energy physics and brain surgery but when people who know about these
things try and explain to me I try to listen and learn. you seem to have
rejected all the explanations put forward by knowledgeable contributors
to this forum. So when you find the answer from other sources please
let us know the outcome so that we can all learn something.
>
> 4, If a Cessna 150 was over stressed in a high "G" maneuver to the
extent that the mainplanes failed they would also fold forwards and
upwards probably outboard of the struts..
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 1 July 2013 01:01, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
<alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi Graham.
> I understand a little in what you a saying.
> In the tail slip the wing is falling backwards to normal flight
condition.
> The pin would stop the wing from pulling out.
>
> But in normal level flight i see this bar in compression.
> At this moment in time, i just can not see how you would get a forward
force.
>
> I find Europa.s notes mentioning words like "tie bar",
> but i find many of Europa,s notes not to clear as to exactly what the
situation is.
>
> I think this bar is say, in compression 90% of the time and 10% in
tension some of the time, hence the pin.
> But what the hell do i know, but im not giving up yet.
>
> Need a little micro transducer between the front wing root to see
which the bios is.
>
> Best Regards.
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403665#403665
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Bob.
Thats seem,s reasonable , and a windmill goes round,
So dose that mean a wing in flight is contributing or generating forward thrust.
Tim.
What you are saying to me, is, i don,t have the right to ask questions or challenge
a reply. I accept there a fare more knowledgeable contributors than me on
the forum. But i am still part of it and have the right to reply and ask, why
or how dose this occur.
I accept wings don,t fall off in normal flight, and this pin is probably for abnormal
flight conditions, But if you go back to the beginning of this topic, it
indicated to me the in level flight the wing provided some forward force, ie
helping the propeller to pull the plane alone.
Maybe it does , as Bob said about the glider, so this bar is in tension all the
time if in the glide.
or may be its in tension only some of the time,
I don,t know,
Regard .
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403683#403683
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor |
Hi Rowland
I along with most agree that the eye watering prices charged for Rotax parts
is scandalous but here I am sure you have asked for the wrong part . However
if you would like it I can copy my fuel system layout and send it to you , I
have completed 45hrs to date with no problems, if you do then contact me off
line at rcollings@talktalk.net .
Regards Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: Rowland Carson
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor
On 13 Jun 2013, at 12:13, richard wrote:
> new rotax engines are supplied with just such a manifold, contact Conair
> for a price
Richard - I spoke with Conair and although I wasn't able to identify _all_
the part numbers for the fuel manifold, the total for those I found came to
578.55 sterling so I think I will be seeking cheaper options!
> For what its worth I modified the fuel pipe runs, dispensing with the
> rubber pipes in favour of proper aircraft aluminium see Mod No 13304
Where can I find info on Mod 13304? It doesn't appear on the LAA website
anywhere I can find. I checked the list of all prototype mods (which only
shows up to Mod 12403 for Europas) and the list of Standard Mods for
Europas.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem |
Hi Frans
I suggest you contact LAA and ask them for a copy of Mod 10602 which Ian
Rickard had approved. This mod introduces a flange plate and seal assembly
into the top of the tank. The important thing is that the flange seal is on
the inside of the tank so no fuel contacts the out side or the cut edge.
Hope this helps
Regards Richard
Europa xs Tri-gear 45hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: Frans Veldman
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 2:36 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank sensor opening problem
Dear friends,
In my fuel tank I have cut two small openings for fuel sensors. Serious
fuel leaks started to develop, so I have removed the sensors to have a look.
What I discovered is that in the area around the cut outs the tank wall
has become swollen and seriously distorted.
I remember some discussion on this forum about the treatment the fuel
tank received, that this treatment was only on the surface and once you
cut a hole in the tank the fuel can reach the unprotected material. I
tank mogas and the ethanol in it doesn't help either.
The question is now, what should I do? Is there any way to rescue the
affected material, or should I cut it out?
If I cut out the area, I have a new cut and will face the same problem
but on a larger scale, unless there is some way to treat the newly cut
opening. If I make a new cut, how can I prevent it from happening again?
Of course, replacement of the fuel tank is something I want to avoid at
all costs (and even then, I want to have fuel sensors in the new tank so
I will have to deal with the same problem anyway).
Is there any quick fix possible? This is the flying saison and I don't
want to spoil it if there is a way to postpone a more long lasting
repair until the winter.
Thanks in advance for some great ideas,
Frans
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
This has been an interesting discussion, but it appears to me that it got
off-track somewhere because "forward" has two meanings (see the attached
illustrations):
(i) The LIFT does not have a "forward" component, under any
circumstances, if FORWARD means the direction of the aircraft's flight.
Reason: LIFT is by definition always perpendicular to the direction of
flight, as DRAG is always opposite to the direction of flight (i.e.
perpendicular to the LIFT).
(ii) If, however, one refers to FORWARD as the direction of
the aircrafts centerline, then LIFT has a "forward" component as soon as the
centerline points up at the nose relative to the direction of flight. The
higher the nose points up, the greater this forward component is. At some
point it may, as I read the discussion, become larger than the wing DRAG's
component parallel to the centerline in the opposite direction, giving a net
"forward" force on the wing.
(iii) The LIFT does not contribute, under any circumstances,
to moving the aircraft forward through the air, as there is no lift
component parallel to the direction of flight. A glider is "propelled" by
the forward - in the direction of flight - component of the aircraft's
WEIGHT only.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem |
On Jul 1, 2013, at 6:53 AM, richard wrote:
> Hi Frans
> I suggest you contact LAA and ask them for a copy of Mod 10602 which
Ian Rickard had approved. This mod introduces a flange plate and seal
assembly into the top of the tank. The important thing is that the
flange seal is on the inside of the tank so no fuel contacts the out
side or the cut edge. Hope this helps
> Regards Richard
> Europa xs Tri-gear 45hrs
All,
Though still just a the builder, I'm following this topic w/ keen
interest and full sympathy for flyers who are experiencing fuel tank
leaks and deformation. When I read about the introduction of tank mods
such as #10602, am I correct in assuming that work of this nature is
done AFTER slicing off the top of the CM, say, 1/2 inch down from the
top flat surface?...or perhaps after slicing off one of the head rests,
say 1/2 inch up from the top flat surface of the CM?
Also...long ago I installed the Europa capacitance fuel gauge PRIOR to
installing the tank in the CM. (At the time I was astounded to read the
instructions' claim that it is possible to install the gauge AFTER
installing the CM by working thru the access hole in the side of the
head rest...I salute anyone who managed to do that!)
If I recall correctly, the installation included an internal flange
plate which I now surmise should prevent fuel contacting the cut
edge...much appreciation if anyone can confirm this.
Fred
A-194
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
On 07/01/2013 04:21 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> This has been an interesting discussion, but it appears to me that it
> got off-track somewhere because "forward" has two meanings (see the
> attached illustrations):
How does an autogyro (autocopter?) work? What is causing the blades to
move forward?
> A glider is
> propelled by the forward in the direction of flight component of
> the aircrafts WEIGHT only.
Ok, got it. But without wings (but still with the majority of the
weight) will the glider still be propelled forwards? I guess not.
Then what exactly is exercising a forward pulling force on the glider's
fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So something must be pulling it
forward.
Frans
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem |
On 07/01/2013 04:29 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> If I recall correctly, the installation included an internal flange
> plate which I now surmise should prevent fuel contacting the cut
> edge...much appreciation if anyone can confirm this.
I did not have the internal flange. I just riveted 5 anchor nuts to the
tank and assumed this would be plenty for such a small surface.
Well, it is not. I now have made an internal flange myself and hope that
with the tank wall locked in between the sensor cap and internal flange
that it won't leak anymore. Still the fuel can access the cut line but
as this has already happened I'm not sure whether it makes sense to seal
it now. Also, you need 5 holes through the tank wall to attach the whole
thing, making it even harder to achieve a leak free fit.
So, I will leave it as is and if it doesn't leak anymore I'm happy with it.
Frans
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Good point Svein=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>=0ATo: europa-li
st@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 1 July 2013, 15:21=0ASubject: SV: Europa-
List: Re: wing lift/drag pins=0A =0A=0A=0AThis has been an interesting disc
ussion, but it appears to me that it got off-track somewhere because "forwa
rd" has two meanings (see the attached illustrations):=0A=C2-=0A(i)=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2- The LIFT does not have a =9Cforward=9D co
mponent, under any circumstances, if FORWARD means the direction of the air
craft=99s flight.=C2- Reason:=C2- LIFT is by definition always pe
rpendicular to the direction of flight, as DRAG is always opposite to the d
irection of flight (i.e. perpendicular to the LIFT).=0A=C2-=0A(ii)=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2- If, however, one refers to FORWARD as the direction of the aircra
fts centerline, then LIFT has a =9Cforward=9D component as soon
as the centerline points up at the nose relative to the direction of fligh
t.=C2- The higher the nose points up, the greater this forward component
is.=C2- At some point it may, as I read the discussion, become larger tha
n the wing DRAG=99s component parallel to the centerline in the oppos
ite direction, giving a net =9Cforward=9D force on the wing.=0A
=C2-=0A(iii)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- The LIFT does not contribute, under any circumstan
ces, to moving the aircraft forward through the air, as there is no lift co
mponent parallel to the direction of flight.=C2- A glider is =9Cpro
pelled=9D by the forward =93 in the direction of flight
=93 component of the aircraft=99s WEIGHT only.=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0ARe
gards,=0ASvein=0ALN-SKJ
Message 12
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Subject: | Fuel tank sensor opening problem |
Hi! Fred
My oval hole cut in the tank top is protected by the plate internally and a
silicone seal round the edges and I have had no problems of the swelling
kind except I had a leak once from the pressure "head" by leaving a column
of fuel right up the "cobra" filler over night . Better attention to the
silicone casket and more intelligent filling seem to have prevented a
repeat. No one advised me to ensure that the cut edge should be kept free
from fuel contact. However early tanks had to have fuel stored and so be
encouraged to " swell" prior to installation into the fuselage/cockpit
module over a period of many weeks restrained by a strong frame surrounding
it. So movement can be expected but by arranging suitable clamps and tight
fixings I would have thought would restrain the swelling anyway. My Kit No
is 337 but I know that a number of builders have suffered split tanks . I
believe likely caused by letting the tank dry out after the impregnation by
fuel . Keep fuel in and such swelling stays stable. (I think !)
Regards to all in strife !
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 01 July 2013 15:29
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank sensor opening problem
On Jul 1, 2013, at 6:53 AM, richard wrote:
Hi Frans
I suggest you contact LAA and ask them for a copy of Mod 10602 which Ian
Rickard had approved. This mod introduces a flange plate and seal assembly
into the top of the tank. The important thing is that the flange seal is on
the inside of the tank so no fuel contacts the out side or the cut edge.
Hope this helps
Regards Richard
Europa xs Tri-gear 45hrs
All,
Though still just a the builder, I'm following this topic w/ keen interest
and full sympathy for flyers who are experiencing fuel tank leaks and
deformation. When I read about the introduction of tank mods such as #10602,
am I correct in assuming that work of this nature is done AFTER slicing off
the top of the CM, say, 1/2 inch down from the top flat surface?...or
perhaps after slicing off one of the head rests, say 1/2 inch up from the
top flat surface of the CM?
Also...long ago I installed the Europa capacitance fuel gauge PRIOR to
installing the tank in the CM. (At the time I was astounded to read the
instructions' claim that it is possible to install the gauge AFTER
installing the CM by working thru the access hole in the side of the head
rest...I salute anyone who managed to do that!)
If I recall correctly, the installation included an internal flange plate
which I now surmise should prevent fuel contacting the cut edge...much
appreciation if anyone can confirm this.
Fred
A-194
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
On 07/01/2013 11:41 AM, Alan Carter wrote:
> I don,t know,
Just assume your wings fall off. What is your fuselage going to do? It
will fall straight down after the short moment it looses its forward speed.
Now keep the wings attached. Switch off the engine. Where is the
fuselage going? It moves forward and keeps on moving forward. As the
fuselage has drag, why is it moving forward against the drag? Who is
pulling it?
Is the connecting bar between the two rear sockets under compression or
unter tension?
Frans
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Frans,
Our postings are crossing a little, but I think the below covers also your
last one:
>
> How does an autogyro (autocopter?) work? What is causing the blades to
> move forward?
>
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogiro
> > A glider is
> > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction of flight - component of
> > the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
>
> Ok, got it. But without wings (but still with the majority of the
> weight) will the glider still be propelled forwards? I guess not.
Again: What is meant by "forward"? Without wings, the glider will still be
propelled forwards, and still by gravitational force. Unfortunately for the
pilot, however, "forward" now means more or less vertical towards the ground
..........
> Then what exactly is exercising a forward pulling force on the glider's
> fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So something must be pulling it
> forward.
>
I may be stating the obvious, but a glider is always going down, or rather
gliding down - down relative to the air mass through which it moves. If the
air mass is moving upwards (thermals) faster than the glider moves downwards
through that air mass, the glider climbs relative to the ground even though
it goes down relative to the air mass. All the time, it is the gravity that
causes it to move, and movement through the air creates lift (if the wings
are still on), so that the glider does not fall like a stone through the
surrounding air mass. When the total drag on the glider equals the
gravity's component in the direction of flight, the glider does not
accelerate any more, it has reached constant speed.
Same thing with an airplane with engine, if the engine quits. As long as
the engine works, though, and we fly level, the engine gives enough pull to
equal the total drag, so that we don't need any assistance by the gravity to
create speed. At level flight, the lift and the down force by the
stabilizer are vertical. Gravity is always vertical. I.e. no fore-or-aft
force component from any of these three forces. Only drag, which equals
propeller pull at constant speed.
Regards,
Svein
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins - ADDITION |
In my most recent posting, I wrote:
"...a glider is always going down, or rather gliding down - down relative to
the air mass through which it moves". The exception is of course if using
the mass inertia of the glider for a short-duration movement up through the
air. This is when the in-the-direction-of-the-centerline forward force on
the wing may exceed the opposite-direction wing drag component, and the
cross tie bar comes under tension, not compression.
Regards,
Svein
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
> > A glider is
> > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction
> > of flight - component of
> > the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
And thats why they (gliders) obviously fill also
sometimes their watertanks - to get more load, to
feed gravity and to get speed?
Cheers, Raimo
-----Alkuperinen viesti-----
From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 6:24 PM
Subject: SV: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag
pins
Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
Frans,
Our postings are crossing a little, but I think
the below covers also your
last one:
>
> How does an autogyro (autocopter?) work? What is
> causing the blades to
> move forward?
>
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogiro
> > A glider is
> > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction
> > of flight - component of
> > the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
>
> Ok, got it. But without wings (but still with
> the majority of the
> weight) will the glider still be propelled
> forwards? I guess not.
Again: What is meant by "forward"? Without
wings, the glider will still be
propelled forwards, and still by gravitational
force. Unfortunately for the
pilot, however, "forward" now means more or less
vertical towards the ground
..........
> Then what exactly is exercising a forward
> pulling force on the glider's
> fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So
> something must be pulling it
> forward.
>
I may be stating the obvious, but a glider is
always going down, or rather
gliding down - down relative to the air mass
through which it moves. If the
air mass is moving upwards (thermals) faster than
the glider moves downwards
through that air mass, the glider climbs relative
to the ground even though
it goes down relative to the air mass. All the
time, it is the gravity that
causes it to move, and movement through the air
creates lift (if the wings
are still on), so that the glider does not fall
like a stone through the
surrounding air mass. When the total drag on the
glider equals the
gravity's component in the direction of flight,
the glider does not
accelerate any more, it has reached constant
speed.
Same thing with an airplane with engine, if the
engine quits. As long as
the engine works, though, and we fly level, the
engine gives enough pull to
equal the total drag, so that we don't need any
assistance by the gravity to
create speed. At level flight, the lift and the
down force by the
stabilizer are vertical. Gravity is always
vertical. I.e. no fore-or-aft
force component from any of these three forces.
Only drag, which equals
propeller pull at constant speed.
Regards,
Svein
browse
Un/Subscription,
FAQ,
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List Admin.
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
On 07/01/2013 05:24 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
>> Then what exactly is exercising a forward pulling force on the glider's
>> fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So something must be pulling it
>> forward.
>>
> I may be stating the obvious, but a glider is always going down,
I guess it is also obvious that it is going down much quicker without
the wings, and with less forward velocity.
So the question remains, if the fuselage without wings has a lower
forward speed than a fuselage with wings, can't we just say that this
means that the wings are pulling the fuselage forwards? No way that the
fuselage itself will maintain a forward speed of 100 knots or so, the
drag is quite substantial, so something is pulling it forward against
the drag. And in the few examples where the wings detached during
flight, it is indeed observed that the wings fold forwards.
The wings MUST BE pulling the fuselage forwards, because the fuselage
would never do this by itself. I can't see how one could argue against that.
> All the time, it is the gravity that
> causes it to move,
Yes, gravity is providing the energy that makes it happen. No doubt
about that. But this is something else than saying that the wings play
no role in it. Sure the wings play a role in it: they counter partly the
gravity and redirect the energy to propel the aircraft forward.
> Same thing with an airplane with engine, if the engine quits. As long as
> the engine works, though, and we fly level, the engine gives enough pull to
> equal the total drag,
The engine provides extra energy, so we don't loose altitude while
"going down".
Frans
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
> > > A glider is
> > > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction of flight - component
> > > of the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
>
> And thats why they (gliders) obviously fill also sometimes their
watertanks -
> to get more load, to feed gravity and to get speed?
>
> Cheers, Raimo
>
Yes, Raimo, that is one of the main reasons for the water ballast. At the
same glide ratio, you get higher speed with than without ballast.
Just look at the bottom illustration in my first e-mail: Higher weight
gives larger gravity component in direction of flight at the same angle of
flight vs. horizontal. Larger pulling force gives higher speed - the glider
accelerates until the higher pulling force equals the increasing drag.
Higher speed gives higher lift (square of speed increase) to carry the
higher weight, so that you can maintain the glide ratio (direction of flight
vs. horizontal).
Regards,
Svein
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Yes Raimo,
You are correct,the water ballast actually increases the gliders "inertia",
and as a consequence,the glide angle is better at higher speeds.
The trade off of course is poorer climb
Performance in lift,but on good days,
The advantage of carrying water out-weighs this.
However pilots may find they have to
Dump some or all of their water to climb
And get home if soaring conditions get
Worse.
Best Regards
Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hello Frans.
Who is pulling it. Gravity
It will move is an arc towards the ground.
A wing is similar to a sail on a sailing boat.
You can not sail directly into wind you can get to about 30 degrees of it.
Sorry Frans but at the moment i am still puzzled.
At the moment i am thinking this bar has three purposes,
1. to prevent the drag pulling the wing back, which is most of the time.
2. two provide the rigidity to the structure so keeping the front pin locked into
its mounting.
3. to stop the wing coming "forwards" in abnormal wing loadings,
Possible very high A/A, near the stall, or gusts, or abnormal flight attitudes.
This puts this bar in compression , tension and neutral loads
But i am willing to change my mind,as i have used up ask a friend, may be its time
to ask the audience,
Regards .
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403725#403725
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Frans,
The forces are as illustrated in my first posting.
If you throttle back the engine, all properly designed and built aircraft
automatically pitches down to gain speed. The pitch-down is of course the
result of the stabilizer's design and angle of incidence vs. the wings' .
Why gain speed: To give required lift.
To get enough speed to give the required lift, the pulling force must be
kept up. Lost propeller thrust must be compensated by something. As lift
CANNOT give force in the direction of flight (remember, BY DEFINTION it is
perpendicular to the direction of flight, thus it has no forwards nor
backwards component flight-direction-wise).
What is this "something" force that compensates for engine power? Look at
the bottom illustration in my first posting: To create a forward force
(forward meaning in the direction of flight) to maintain speed to maintain
lift, the only possible force available is the gravity's flight-direction
component. The steeper the pitch-down, the larger this force becomes, and
the faster down you fly. This creates more lift (perpendicular to the
flight direction), of course, but the vertical component of the lift remains
the same - equal to the weight of the aircraft plus the vertical component
of the downward stab. force.
The gravity component acts on every atom in the structure's molecules, but
we commonly consider them all grouped together at what we refer to as the
center of gravity (CG), and uses this as point as the one common point where
the total pulling force acts. Neither the fuselage nor the wings pull the
aircraft forward, good ol' gravity does it all by itself!
Do this, Frans: Shake off all your conceptions. Look ONLY at my
illustrations. The global airplane forces are actually this simple.
Alan,
Right on!
Regards,
Svein
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Group
I have been following this thread with interest.
I have been picking the brain of an ex Grumman X-29 FSW lead wind tunnel engineer
as far as our Europa wings trying to move fore or aft, and all I know at the
moment (pun intended) is how much I don't know.
He asked a few pointed questions about the Europa, can you help me out with answering
them?:
**** What percent chord is the main spar at?
**** What wing section does the aircraft use?
**** What is the relationship (distance) between the main spar and the aft fitting?
Once I provide him with these details, he will come back with his take on the subject.
I will post his answer along with other comments he has made already.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
BTW Frans, I have always thought of a Gyrocopter as an aeroplane with a big pancake
of a wing above you. When you spin up the blades, they don't allow much in
the way of airflow through the spinning blades. Think of a big disk you put
at a positive angle of attack above you. Kinda neat concept, not very efficient,
takes a lot of pushing energy to keep your rotors spinning up to make it act
like a solid disc.
Here is an E-Mail I sent:
Hey Guyz
A Europa member was trying to explain to another member why at high angles of attack
the wings want to sweep forward.
There are other members that tried to explain in words, one just said well, it's
the same reason why a Gyrocopter rotor spins in the direction that it does which
with little thought seems to be spinning in the wrong direction.
Attached is a diagram that is a pretty good visualization.
Ron P.
Here's his reply:
No its not (a good visualization)
You have to apply real numbers to those phoney scalers on that figure.
At high AOA the drag is significantly higher than shown, but lift not so much so.
This would pull the L/D resultant much father aft.
Those two plots are implying that the L/D of a wing is the same at cruise and at
high AOA which we all KNOW is not true! (the reason you never fly a high performance
sailplane near Cl Max!)
There is one good reason for putting fwd sweep in a wing planform. It allows less
use of washout to keep the tip from stalling. If the wing is swept TOO far
fwd, the twist actually reverses! The root must be a lower AOA than the tip,
sometimes by a lot.
The biggest DISADVATAGE to FSW planform wings is structural divergence. Load the
wing up, and without a sufficiently strong wing box structure, the wing tip
will twist to a higher AOA producing more twist repeat as necessary until failure
(catastrophic I might add!)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403743#403743
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Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Ron.
Glad you are interested.
If you read the topic from the beginning it imply,s that the sole purpose of this
bar was to prevent the wings from being pulled forward all the time during
flight.
I,m getting to old for all of this, but as an instructor many years ago i use to
draw all the forces on the blackboard,and i never drew a wing vector added to
the thrust vector,
So got me thinking why, and i slowly began to come round to thinking there may
be some forward component but not occurring in normal flight.
The tie bar came in with the weight increase mod, with the bigger spar pins, the
swivelling rear fuselage pin socket and the tie strap on the spar.
Then when we had the in flight break up the tie bar became a mandatory mod for
all Europa's with the extra long rear wing pins with big washer and nut inside
the wing root.
I think its purpose is as i have stated, and re enforces the whole structure around
the wing and mounting points, and i believe this weak spot was part of the
break up,
May not have been the initial cause, that may well have been something to do with
the Stabalator.
I may be wrong, I have never built an aeroplane, and im just a simple country boy,with
a pair of eye,s, but do have the right to post my opinion,
I am polite, never make fun of, or discourage any member from posting, and always
willing to listen to another point of view, I am just interested in this particulate
topic, and will look forward to your posting, sorry i can,t give you
the information you requested,
I just fly the plane.
Regards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403746#403746
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Europa-List Usage Guidelines
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Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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|
Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Ron,
>From your message:
> Attached is a diagram that is a pretty good visualization.
> Ron P.
>
> Here's his reply:
> No it=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s not=C3=A2=82=AC=C2 (a good
visualization)
>
> You have to apply real numbers to those phoney scalers on that figure.
>
> At high AOA the drag is significantly higher than shown, but lift not
so much
> so. This would pull the L/D resultant much father aft.
>
> Those two plots are implying that the L/D of a wing is the same at
cruise and
> at high AOA which we all KNOW is not true! (the reason you never fly a
high
> performance sailplane near Cl Max!)
>
I assume it was my illustration that you forwarded to your friend. If
so, I agree with his statement about L/D - the vectors are not to scale
at all, and were not intended to be. I realize, however, that I should
have emphasized this and also increased the length of the wing drag
vector at the high AOA illustration, but this has no bearing on the lift
component issue.
My message =93 and illustration - had two purposes, which perhaps
your friend was not aware of:
- To show that lift has no component in the direction of
flight, regardless of the angle of attack, while lift may have a
=9Cforward=9D component, if "forward" means the direction
the nose is pointing.
- To show that a glider is pulled forward (in the direction of
gliding flight) by gravity, not by any lift component.
I have not made any calculation of the magnitude of the
=9Cforward=9D lift component vs. drag on Europa or any other
airplane, which is why I just referred to arguments and observations
presented by others: "At some point it may, as I read the discussion,
become larger than the wing DRAG=99s component parallel to the
centerline in the opposite direction, giving a net
=9Cforward=9D force on the wing." The magnitude of such a
=9Cforward=9D component is only dependent on the magnitude
of the lift and the angle between the centerline and the direction of
flight. The magnitude of drag does not come in here. The resultant
force on the wing, however, and whether it acts
=9Cforward=9D or =9Cbackward=9D, depends also on
the drag magnitude.
I apologize if I have caused any confusion about wing L/D vs. AOA (I
don=99t really think I have, though!)
Regards,
Svein
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