---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/03/13: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:20 AM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Europaul383) 2. 05:46 AM - Re: SV: Re: wing lift/drag pins (William Daniell) 3. 10:53 AM - Dawn to Dusk Challenge (David Joyce) 4. 11:35 AM - SV: Dawn to Dusk Challenge (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 5. 11:38 AM - Re: Dawn to Dusk Challenge (Max Cointe (Free)) 6. 02:03 PM - Re: Dawn to Dusk Challenge (Ivan Shaw) 7. 03:22 PM - Philip Levi at the AGM (Steven Pitt) 8. 07:11 PM - Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Tony Renshaw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:48 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins From: "Europaul383" >Also acts,? what else does it do ? It transfers lift to the fuselage and locates the trailing edge of the wing at the appropriate angle of incidence (as does the leading edge wing pin). Builders' Manual Ch 26, P 26-1: "There are two pins in each wing to transfer lift to the fuselage; one at the leading edge and one, which doubles to take drag loads, is at the trailing edge." Ch 27, P 27-1: "The wing lift pins locate into sockets, which are to be attached to the fuselage sides, and these hold the wing at the determined angle." >Don't answer that please. Oops sorry, too late! Paul M G-PLPM XS Mono 912S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403850#403850 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:09 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins This whole discussion has been fascinating. IMHO lot of the discussion is related to the difficulty of describing a three dimensional event in words (by the way I admire Frans=92 and Svein=92s grasp of English) As I understand this and for the purposes of the discussion Motive power is provided primarily from the fuselage in the form of 1. the engine when running 2. or in its absence the mass of the aircraft which is mostly concentrated in the fuselage being acted upon by the acceleration provided by gravity. Drag affects the aircraft all over its surface but in level flight the wings are forced toward the rear of the aircraft by the relative wind acting upon the leading edge. The wings provide the majority of the lift (a minimal being provided by the fuselage) in two ways but can only be created by forward motion with respect to the relative wind. (if the relative wind is zero then it wont fly) 1. benouille=B4s effect which is perpendicular to the cord 2. force of the relative wind against the lower surface of the wing. I am assuming that this varies in a complex way. One can see the in level flight the mass of the aircraft is supported by the wings and this support is transmitted by the 4 points at which the wings connect to the fuselage. The force of the relative wind against the leading edge trying to fold the wings to the rear of the aircraft is being counteracted by the rear lift sockets and (I would also guess) by the main wing spars. So in this case the tie bar is in compression. I have difficulty with visualizing how the tie bar could be in tension. I suppose that with the relative hitting the lower surface of the wing at a high angle of attack on could foresee a force component towards the front of the fuselage though not in the direction of flight but it seems hard. Maybe Rons engineer can try to explain it to us less technical folks. I am continually surprised by what I learn on the forum. Yours Will Bogota From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 09:01 Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins Glad I didn't upset everyone {{!-) Graham _____ From: Pete Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013, 14:54 Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins Thx Graham, My sentiments exactly. And to the question of why the spars are strapped together, and why one pin has to be a pip pin, is because we have simple overlapping spars, and not fork spars, so the asymmetrical load on the pins wants to twist them off, as the spar ends gets forced away from the other spar. Cheers, Pete On Jul 2, 2013, at 8:19 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: Svein I admire your patience and courtesy, ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:08 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Dawn to Dusk Challenge I am planning an attack on the all time distance record for the D2D Challenge on Sunday if the weather turns out as good as currently forecast. It stands at 2500nm currently, and I calculate that a figure of 8 round UK, Hebrides Orkney & Shetland mainlands and Ireland will do the trick! It will need rather a long time in the air averaging 150kts, but if the weather Gods smile and the donkey keeps going it might just be possible. Plan to fly it atFL95 apart from the lower level bit round SE England. Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (mono 914 Woodcomp SR3000W + purpose built, LAA approved 100litre long range tank) PS the 3 planes at the top of the distance record list are: 1 Beech Baron; 2. Mooney; 3. Hawk Jet!! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:08 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: Dawn to Dusk Challenge Hi David, I wish you all the best of luck - wouldn't that be something, a Europa on top of the list!! Regards, Svein do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:19 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe (Free)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Dawn to Dusk Challenge Hi David, May the weather Gods and saint-Rotax be with you but I'm sure all the Europa fellows will! Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de David Joyce Envoy: mercredi 3 juillet 2013 19:53 : europa list Objet: Europa-List: Dawn to Dusk Challenge --> I am planning an attack on the all time distance record for the D2D Challenge on Sunday if the weather turns out as good as currently forecast. It stands at 2500nm currently, and I calculate that a figure of 8 round UK, Hebrides Orkney & Shetland mainlands and Ireland will do the trick! It will need rather a long time in the air averaging 150kts, but if the weather Gods smile and the donkey keeps going it might just be possible. Plan to fly it atFL95 apart from the lower level bit round SE England. Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (mono 914 Woodcomp SR3000W + purpose built, LAA approved 100litre long range tank) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:01 PM PST US From: Ivan Shaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dawn to Dusk Challenge David, Good luck and following winds. Ivan Sent from my iPad On 3 Jul 2013, at 18:52, "David Joyce" wrote: > > > I am planning an attack on the all time distance record for the D2D Challenge on Sunday if the weather turns out as good as currently forecast. It stands at 2500nm currently, and I calculate that a figure of 8 round UK, Hebrides Orkney & Shetland mainlands and Ireland will do the trick! It will need rather a long time in the air averaging 150kts, but if the weather Gods smile and the donkey keeps going it might just be possible. Plan to fly it atFL95 apart from the lower level bit round SE England. > Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (mono 914 Woodcomp SR3000W + purpose built, LAA approved 100litre long range tank) > PS the 3 planes at the top of the distance record list are: > 1 Beech Baron; > 2. Mooney; > 3. Hawk Jet!! > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:49 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Europa-List: Philip Levi at the AGM Philip, Sorry to send this through the Matronics site but I do not have your email. You were taking photos at the AGM. Can you let us have sight of them for the Magazine, please. Thanks Steve Pitt Chairman ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:52 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder Gidday, I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the rear face of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used a digital level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found the incidence had changed nominally. I have attempted to make a small adjustment with the TE socket position which is reduced but not bolted, yet. It was suggested that I could twist the spar nominally to get the angle accurate but to be honest I didn't like doing that although I suppose it wouldn't have mattered that much because we might only be talking about a % of a single degree of twist. Still, I didn't like that idea. Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees which is to me unacceptable, BUT, its a lot of work to undo things. That probably isn't completely true as I only have the sockets mounted with Redux, so I could heat them and snap them off and start again, but I worry I'm going to do a lot of work and may well end up right back where I've started. My pins fit nicely in the back of the seat, and that took a lot of mucking around, and I worry that to undo things and redo them I mightn't get the same result. I want to know what people think of this angle, whether anyone else has not set it perfectly, what difference they perceive it might make on their plane, and whether anyone has factual consequence of it not being 100% right. I do worry only about the relationship of the tailplane to the wing, but having a fully flyable tailplane removes some of the problems of not having a perfect AoI. The impact could be however that at optimum in trim cruise the tailplane may be at a slightly different angle at an optimum CoG, and the full range of pitch may be not what was originally planned. So, if anyone has advice I'd really appreciate input. I should also add that I am building a taildraggers, a Bob Berube mod from Florida, which relies on the same moments as the mono wheel by having the design such that the a/c has a similar stature on the ground. Maybe the higher AoI might be a bonus, and help me fly away better, climb better, but no go quite as fast. To be honest, I don't care anymore as I would prefer to not have to undo stuff I have done. I'm becoming pretty good at that but unfortunately keep practicing the skill. Regards Tony Renshaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.