Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:47 AM - Trip to Australia, is it possible? (Frans Veldman)
2. 08:40 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (AirEupora)
3. 09:22 AM - Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible? (David Joyce)
4. 09:25 AM - Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible? (David Joyce)
5. 09:39 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Frans Veldman)
6. 10:09 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Fred Klein)
7. 10:09 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Richard Lamprey)
8. 10:12 AM - windscreen de-fogging (Fred Klein)
9. 10:43 AM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Frans Veldman)
10. 10:59 AM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Gilles Thesee)
11. 11:12 AM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
12. 11:41 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Bud Yerly)
13. 11:43 AM - SV: windscreen de-fogging (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
14. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Bud Yerly)
15. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
16. 12:35 PM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Bud Yerly)
17. 12:40 PM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Kevin Challis)
18. 12:53 PM - Europa Tech Support (Bud Yerly)
19. 12:56 PM - Re-setting the front socket (andrew cullum)
20. 02:14 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter)
21. 03:11 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter)
22. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Bud Yerly)
23. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Bud Yerly)
24. 08:14 PM - G-KITS. (andrew cullum)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Trip to Australia, is it possible? |
Hi Friends,
After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking fow a new
adventure.
Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are now wondering if
we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised that my son
will graduate next year and now he is still living at home and yet old
enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our house, webshop
and animals, this might be a convenient moment to undertake such a journey.
We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world globe and
seeing that technically it should be possible.
Before putting some time in it and then discovering that some countries
would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster to ask for info
on this list. I remember having seen some references to such a trip or
the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be very valuable to
learn from it.
First questions that come to mind are: What time of year would be best
for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some countries, but is
the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the middle-east and
aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they tolerate home
built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and how much time is
needed to get the necessary permissions?
Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive or negative.
Thanks,
Frans
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder |
Tony, I can tell you from experience that both wings have to be the same. I set
my up with the fuselage bottom only. I now have both top and bottom on and
have 30 hours of flight time. I have a left wing low. I went back and measured
both wings and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees.
Not sure why! I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings!
I have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low speed the aircraft
left wing drops in a second. I'm planning on resetting the front socket.
I'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is in the fuselage
and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to the ole one then
set the wing up correctly.
Do it right the first, second, third time. If it's right you will have no troubles
when you fly it. Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the wind
aileron end plate to set the sweep.
Rick Stockton
N120EJ
Jabiru 3330L
Whirlwind Ground Adjustable
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403926#403926
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible? |
Frans, it is possible. A Tiger Moth did it in 2001 or
thereabouts. I had planned to do it in 2009 with Ivor
Phillips, in one plane each with long range tank sitting
in passenger seat. Doing it 2 up would be considerably
more of a challenge. We got to an advanced stage in our
planning before my son developing Motor Neurone Disease
put paid to my plans. We worked out that a March departure
was probably optimal. I did write up an article in the
Europa Flyer with a brief description of the main issues,
but would be p,eased to share that reticle and other
fruits of our research with you off list. I have to say
hat the more research we did the more apparent it became
that it would be very expensive and pone to considerable
hassle in many countries once East of central Europe.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:46:50 +0200
Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl> wrote:
><frans@privatepilots.nl>
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking
>fow a new
> adventure.
>
> Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are
>now wondering if
> we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised
>that my son
> will graduate next year and now he is still living at
>home and yet old
> enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our
>house, webshop
> and animals, this might be a convenient moment to
>undertake such a journey.
>
> We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world
>globe and
> seeing that technically it should be possible.
>
> Before putting some time in it and then discovering that
>some countries
> would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster
>to ask for info
> on this list. I remember having seen some references to
>such a trip or
> the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be
>very valuable to
> learn from it.
>
>First questions that come to mind are: What time of year
>would be best
> for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some
>countries, but is
> the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the
>middle-east and
> aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they
>tolerate home
> built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and
>how much time is
> needed to get the necessary permissions?
>
> Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive
>or negative.
>
> Thanks,
>Frans
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible? |
PS Flying to the Canaries is a moderately challenging
adventure which will give you a good flavour of the
difficulties of getting permission to fly a Permit A/C
through. Non European country. It took me 5 1/2 months to
get permission! David
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:46:50 +0200
Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl> wrote:
><frans@privatepilots.nl>
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking
>fow a new
> adventure.
>
> Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are
>now wondering if
> we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised
>that my son
> will graduate next year and now he is still living at
>home and yet old
> enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our
>house, webshop
> and animals, this might be a convenient moment to
>undertake such a journey.
>
> We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world
>globe and
> seeing that technically it should be possible.
>
> Before putting some time in it and then discovering that
>some countries
> would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster
>to ask for info
> on this list. I remember having seen some references to
>such a trip or
> the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be
>very valuable to
> learn from it.
>
>First questions that come to mind are: What time of year
>would be best
> for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some
>countries, but is
> the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the
>middle-east and
> aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they
>tolerate home
> built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and
>how much time is
> needed to get the necessary permissions?
>
> Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive
>or negative.
>
> Thanks,
>Frans
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder |
On 07/04/2013 04:11 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
>
> Gidday, I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the
> rear face of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used
> a digital level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found
> the incidence had changed nominally.
Forget this digital level. Been there, done that. It changes everytime,
depending on where you measure and other obscure variables. It drives
you nuts and leads nowhere. And is not precise enough anyway.
Prepare two blocks of some suitable material (wood, blue foam), about 4
cm or so high, and make sure they are of exactly the same size.
Put them on the trailing edge of the wing, at the same distance from the
fuselage.
Now walk away from the airplane. At least 5 meters, more is better.
Bring the top of the leading edge exactly in line with the block on the
trailing edge (just like aiming a gun, you could as well put a needle on
the block and a hairline cross sticking out of the leading edge). On
both sides (port and starboard) you should have the leading edge and
blocks in line at exactly the same eye height. You will notice that
moving your eye just a cm up or down will make a whole difference.
If you do the math, you will find out that this method is many times
more precise than any digital level and you will be able to sight
fractions of a degree. What's more, you can repeat this with the blocks
at varying distances from the fuselage (but keep port and starboard
always at the same distance to cancel the wash out!) and get some
"avarage" out of it to cancel out minor imperfections of the shape of
the wing.
You can get it even more precise if you use some reflecting material, or
put a bright LED on top of the blocks, or use some sort of back light.
It is just like seeing the exact moment of sun rise or sun set. At 20
meters away it is awfully precise to see if both wings are equal: both
leds (or lamps) should rise at exactly the same moment over the leading
edge while you move your head slowly up! Less than just a millimeter of
difference in trailing edge will be clearly visible.
I ended up doing the wings this way, the outcome was stable, repeatable
and very precise, and during curing of the araldite I kept the blocks on
and "sighted" the wings regularly to be sure that nothing moved.
The airplane can be flown right into a stall and just bobs up and down
like a straight Cessna, not even the smallest tendency to wing drop.
> Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees
> which is to me unacceptable,
The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly? Then don't worry. I set mine
deliberately at 0.1 steeper because I have a high top and would prefer
just a tad more nose down to cancel out the steeper angle of the roof
and to get more view over the higher firewall. Flies beautifully!
Frans
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder |
On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:
>>
>> Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees
>> which is to me unacceptable,
>
> The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly?
I believe the XS build manual calls for 2.5 degrees...
Fred
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder |
Getting it right first time is good. But also I dimly remember (from the days
of the Europa Newsletter, around 1997) the tale of G-KITS, the first factory demonstrator
for the Classic tri-gear, where one wing was accidentally built with
1 degree WASHIN, not 1.5 degree washout. You would think it would have stall/
wingdrop characteristics from hell, but apparently it flew just fine, and
is still flying - I see its picture online. So perhaps there is some leeway in
the AoI.
Richard
Classic Reg 5Y-LRY, Kenya
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403933#403933
Message 8
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| Subject: | windscreen de-fogging |
Gentlemen,
I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the
top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm
uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job.
If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or
insufficient...I'd be grateful
I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions
in UK.
Thanks in advance,
Fred
A-194
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: windscreen de-fogging |
On 07/04/2013 07:12 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted
> louvers in the top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of
> de-fogging the windscreen...I'm uncertain as to what cfm ratings or
> sizes will do the job.
I did that too, and despite our damp climate I have used them only twice
(and found out that they didn't contribute much anyway).
You'd probably better save the weight.
Frans
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: windscreen de-fogging |
Fred Klein a crit :
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the
top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm
uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job.
>
> If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or
insufficient...I'd be grateful
>
> I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions
in UK.
>
>
Hi Fred,
Here is what we did recently :
http://contrails.free.fr/cellule_defog_en.php
Not much weight involved (about 700-800 g) though we feel that our 380
kg four seater is a bit on the heavy side ;-)
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: windscreen de-fogging |
Hi Fred
"If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is
sufficient...or insufficient"
I chose to use four 12 volt mini fans. They are run off a 3 position
(low, high and off). If 2 are put in series it's low, and if run off
bus voltage, then high. Yes idea as a minimiist demister but also to get
heat out from under instrument module. You can find info on what I am
doing (I did quite a bit of fooling with different fans. There is also a
folder on that page "Panel cooling and demisting ideas by
others."
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305
I am installing temp probes under the instrument module so will be able
to see temps.
Ron Parigoris
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder |
Tony,
Welcome to my world.
The first Europa I purchased used had the left wing at 2.6 and the right
at 3.1. I moved the sockets in the right fuselage side to 2.6. It
flies straight and true. If you were to set both at 2.8 degrees your
fuselage will be nose down a bit at cruise, which shouldn't hurt a
thing. Just go for it.
As for your gear relationship, deck angle etc. on landing, I can only
say that the extra bit of incidence will allow you to be closer to the
stall angle at the three point touchdown and improve over the nose
visibility.
In practice I found that I can correct with flap and aileron trimming up
to .2 degrees incidence difference and you will never see my changes.
At .4 incidence difference, I have to modify the the wing leading edge
to get a perfectly straight stall.
First consider this: To be sure as Frans and others might say that
later, that all digital and spirit or bubble levels are not equal. In
fact I have one that is off .3 degrees when tested at three degrees. My
test bench is a simple 3 inch block in 60 inches and with the level
facing one direction and when the level is rotated 180 degrees putting
the scale window on the other side it measures 2.7 degrees rather than
the three. That's 10 percent off.
So it is best to set your spirit level or digital level on a dead flat
surface and check the zero to 3 degree setting. I used to set my level
at 2.5 degrees (2.5 inch board at 60 inches) 3 degrees, 5 degrees and 12
degrees for calibration purposes of the wing incidence, and tail planes
to make sure things are fairly close to the manual.
Since your sockets are only in Redux, snap them off and fix them both is
what I would do.
I have found that the best way to make sure things don't move is to
shore up the wing well during cure. Just in case the temp changes over
cure time, I block the gear also if necessary. Trigear, I put a pipe in
the main gear, and for the conventional, I block the spring gear itself.
I know that you don't really want to hear this but the standard rule in
my shop is take it apart and put it together (normally about 5 times)
until it is repeatable and easy to do. That means when building glider
wings, or rigging the plane, or hanging the cowl if you try to do things
in one shot, you will have to redo it to get it right.
The worst thing to happen when rigging wings is to have the left spar
creep aft during the socket build up then it causes so many troubles
down the road. Take your time, make sure it fits all around then tack
it in place.
The only difference between a professional build and an amateur build,
is I know how to fix my mistakes before it affects something else.
As for the tail dragger, good luck. It is best to modify the gear to
get the position of the axle to leading edge of the wing MAC (about 2/3
out on the wing from fuselage centerline) over the axle with the
fuselage in level position. Contact Grove, as Bobby Grove has a couple
of solutions. (New gear or 1/4 inch steel plates to increase deck angle
and move the axles back about 4-5 inches. As the gear as is, I find it
un-gratifying to fly the gear as designed. It is very tough to wheel
land the conventional due to the spring stiffness and forward position.
With a 10 Knot cross wind I can land on one main and do a wheel landing
with ease and no tire wear (without the crosswind, tire wear on a wing
low slightly slipped landing is more than I care to pay for). Three
point is not a problem. It is quite tough to teach a new guy how to
land and takeoff with the gear as set. It's a mono except it doesn't
fall over when the wings are pulled off. If you hit mains first with
any vertical component, the tail drops faster than you can react and
combined with the extra lift from the drooping tail added to the gear
spring reaction, you get launched back in the air, then hit the tail
wheel, you over correct and down on the main again resulting in a
porpoise which continues to increase in speed and frequency naturally
and any PIO combination can be a disaster. Just go around and get the
tail wheel on first. Don't relax on roll out as between 45 to a fast
walk it tends to wander and you have to "stay on it". Not difficult to
master, it just takes practice, discipline and the ability to go around
early when it doesn't work out on first contact. Go around early and
save yourself and the plane.
I highly recommend you do not install a fully swiveling tail wheel
unless you can lock it from the cockpit as the torque of a 912S with
Airmaster is enough that a moment of inattention or failure to keep the
stick full back is a real eye opener for the new guy on takeoff if the
tail wheel is not positively locked. Next, on landing or a bounce, if
slightly sideways, the tail wheel may unlock and you will be off to the
races with no tail control but the rudder which is not effective at
really low speed on takeoff or roll out...
Find a Luscombe with a bad wheel alignment on steroids to practice with
on asphalt. Keep it straight, lower your IQ to a 2 and hold it off
until hit the tail wheel first. You'll be fine.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Renshaw<mailto:tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:11 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger
Downunder
<tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com<mailto:tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>>
Gidday,
I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the rear face
of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used a digital
level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found the incidence
had changed nominally. I have attempted to make a small adjustment with
the TE socket position which is reduced but not bolted, yet. It was
suggested that I could twist the spar nominally to get the angle
accurate but to be honest I didn't like doing that although I suppose it
wouldn't have mattered that much because we might only be talking about
a % of a single degree of twist. Still, I didn't like that idea. Suffice
to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees which is to me unacceptable, BUT,
its a lot of work to undo things. That probably isn't completely true as
I only have the sockets mounted with Redux, so I could heat them and
snap them off and start again, but I worry I'm going to do a lot of work
and may well end up right back where I've started. My pins fit nicely !
in the back of the seat, and that took a lot of mucking around, and I
worry that to undo things and redo them I mightn't get the same result.
I want to know what people think of this angle, whether anyone else has
not set it perfectly, what difference they perceive it might make on
their plane, and whether anyone has factual consequence of it not being
100% right. I do worry only about the relationship of the tailplane to
the wing, but having a fully flyable tailplane removes some of the
problems of not having a perfect AoI. The impact could be however that
at optimum in trim cruise the tailplane may be at a slightly different
angle at an optimum CoG, and the full range of pitch may be not what was
originally planned.
So, if anyone has advice I'd really appreciate input. I should also
add that I am building a taildraggers, a Bob Berube mod from Florida,
which relies on the same moments as the mono wheel by having the design
such that the a/c has a similar stature on the ground. Maybe the higher
AoI might be a bonus, and help me fly away better, climb better, but no
go quite as fast. To be honest, I don't care anymore as I would prefer
to not have to undo stuff I have done. I'm becoming pretty good at that
but unfortunately keep practicing the skill.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 13
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| Subject: | windscreen de-fogging |
Hi Fred,
I use the big fan up front! The NACA inlet on the right side, originally
intended for fresh air into the cockpit, is not leading air into the cockpit
but into the panel (made a duct of bid and epoxy from the NACA to the right
underside corner of the panel, easily removable by one screw. On top of the
panel, I have made long cutouts about 1/4" wide, close to the front edge.
Leave enough un-cut material to maintain strength, ref. the bolts holding
the panel to the top of the firewall. It is surprising how tight the panel
is along the bottom, but if necessary you can put in some soft foam or other
suitable sealing material (I have not).
Soon after starting the engine, while the oil is still warming up before
starting to taxi, I can see the mist disappearing on the front window.
Heating of the air flowing through behind the panel is from the instruments
and through the firewall. This ventilation therefore also helps keeping the
instrument temps down (never has been an issue, even in southern Europe on
hot summer days).
As you well know, no air comes into the cockpit unless it also is allowed to
escape. I assume you already have made an efficient air outlet from the
cockpit, both for this de-mist air, for fresh air into the cockpit in the
summer (through the left side NACA in my case) and for cabin heating in the
cold season (I take warm air from behind the water cooler).
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Alan,
Your analysis of the bar and reason for the aft socket pin is good
enough to build the plane or maintain it.
Understanding the lift affects is really a vector analysis exercise.
I studied a T-28 wing failure accident and we were lucky enough to have
a video of the failure. The wing failed at a speed of 270 KIAS and the
video clearly showed that when the badly corroded spar and skin failed
(main wing spar is at about the 1/4 chord) the wing went full up as if
it were folded and hit the pilot on the head killing him instantly not
aft at all. In another accident at an airshow the main spar failed
first and began to flutter, the pilot unloaded and the main spar failed
first, and the wing trailed aft because the wing twisted up and aft spar
and upper skin hung on longer. Tragic accidents but changes were made
and T-28s still fly on well, when properly maintained.
When building model airplanes as a kid and just experimenting with
tailless designs, using a Clark Y airfoil, it flipped nose up badly even
when the CG was on the CL due to the wing pitching moment. The same
test with a symetrical airfoil was a piece of cake. The symetrical
airfoil has no pitching moment until the flaperon was deflected then
whamo.
The wing lift vector is not perpendicular to the chord or angle of
attack but is drawn as such in many training documents. In the US Air
Force I was drafted to rewrite the aero portion of our pilot texts and
teach it for a year. I had to teach the test questions because most
pilots (the generals included) are not aerodynamicists they know that
the houses get bigger when pushing forward and smaller when pulling
back unless you pull too much back stick. Things like if the engine
quits, bail out, and you can never have too much fuel (unless you are on
fire) works in some cases, but not for us lowly piston engine guys who
do not have fuel dumps and ejection seats.
Our little bird will pull forward on the aft support at modest and high
angles of attack and when unloaded to 1 G or less will go to neutral and
then to compression.
Get it flying and enjoy the plane.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Carter<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 1:36 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins
<alancarteresq@onetel.net<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>>
Hello Frans.
Who is pulling it. Gravity
It will move is an arc towards the ground.
A wing is similar to a sail on a sailing boat.
You can not sail directly into wind you can get to about 30 degrees of
it.
Sorry Frans but at the moment i am still puzzled.
At the moment i am thinking this bar has three purposes,
1. to prevent the drag pulling the wing back, which is most of the
time.
2. two provide the rigidity to the structure so keeping the front pin
locked into its mounting.
3. to stop the wing coming "forwards" in abnormal wing loadings,
Possible very high A/A, near the stall, or gusts, or abnormal flight
attitudes.
This puts this bar in compression , tension and neutral loads
But i am willing to change my mind,as i have used up ask a friend, may
be its time to ask the audience,
Regards .
Alan
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder |
The AoA that must be accurate is at roughly the outboard end of the spar.
=0AAoA at the wing root is pretty irrelevant. Think about it, there's almos
t no rolling moment there. =0AI made a jig to measure AoA using the leading
edge and the trailing edge, a Vee on it's side for the LE and a straight e
dge to sit on the trailing edge. Straight edge to join the two. This is you
r datum line, not essential that it is parallel to the wing chord line but
you will need to use a digital level.=0ANext get the first wing set up as p
er the manual.=0ANow set up the second wing to match the first. =0AIt would
n't do any harm to check the wings at the tips too, this will=0Atell you if
the wings have different washout angle but maybe you didn't want to know t
hat!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: AirEu
pora <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thu
rsday, 4 July 2013, 16:39=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on
a Classic Taildragger Downunder=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by
: "AirEupora" <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net>=0A=0ATony, I can tell you from expe
rience that both wings have to be the same.- I set my up with the fuselag
e bottom only.- I now have both top and bottom on and have 30 hours of fl
ight time.- I have a left wing low.- I went back and measured both wing
s and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees.- =0A=0ANot su
re why!- I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings!
=0A=0AI have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low spe
ed the aircraft left wing drops in a second.- I'm planning on resetting t
he front socket.- =0A=0AI'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the
metal plate that is in the fuselage and will cut out the fuselage skin and
add a plate to the ole one then set the wing up correctly.=0A=0ADo it righ
t the first, second, third time.- If it's right you will have no troubles
when you fly it.- Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the w
ind aileron end plate to set the sweep.=0A=0ARick Stockton=0AN120EJ=0AJabir
u 3330L=0AWhirlwind Ground Adjustable=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online
here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403926#403926=0A
====================
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: windscreen de-fogging |
Ron,
I installed both 40 mm and 80 mm computer CPU fans and frankly, the 40s
don't move that much air. The 80s do better at venting the hot air out
of the panel. Some electronics get quite warm and I wanted to cool the
panel, not really defrost. That was a hopeful side effect of the
installation of the fans.
The first setup on 12AY I put the fans too far forward and they blow
into the windscreen support. To be honest, I can't even feel the air
flow moving up the windscreen, it moves sideways. That was a dumb
execution of a good idea.
On others, I move the fans as far aft toward the pilot as I can to pull
the Garmin 430 and Dynon Skyview heat out of the panel. They both get
pretty hot. I have found that the air comes up the windscreen, but is
not hot enough or fast enough in the winter to feel like a defogger, but
at least it moves the air up the windscreen. If you have an Ameriking
type cooling fan, one leg of that would be about as strong as my two
80s...
The Grand Rapids and Becker radios are pretty cool running and frankly
the panel only gets about 10 degrees warmer than the cockpit, so without
the heat and high forced air flow of an auto type defogger, I do not see
it as much help on a cold day at altitude with a quick descent to the
warmer air below steaming things up.
Sorry I don't have more info for you. It's just too hot here in
Florida. Even in the winter, although my canopy top fogs up and my
screen fogs for a second or two, they both clear once the inside and
outside temps stabilize.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us<mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: Europa<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging
Hi Fred
"If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is
sufficient...or insufficient"
I chose to use four 12 volt mini fans. They are run off a 3 position
(low, high and off). If 2 are put in series it's low, and if run off bus
voltage, then high. Yes idea as a minimiist demister but also to get
heat out from under instrument module. You can find info on what I am
doing (I did quite a bit of fooling with different fans. There is also a
folder on that page "Panel cooling and demisting ideas by others."
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305
I am installing temp probes under the instrument module so will be
able to see temps.
Ron Parigoris
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| Subject: | Re: windscreen de-fogging |
I have no fans and it gets a little fogged up on the ground in the winter but I
open the door and it clears. I never have any problems in the air and I have
no heater.
Kevin Challis
G ODJG
Tri gear 912s
On 4 Jul 2013, at 19:12, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the
top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm
uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job.
>
> If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or
insufficient...I'd be grateful
>
> I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions
in UK.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Fred
> A-194
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Europa Tech Support |
Guys,
As you know Europa is finally in there new digs at Wombleton Airfield,
York, UK.
I am so happy for Dave Stanbridge and all the folks at Wombleton,
because who would not be excited about owning your own airport and
airplane factory.
Now that the factory and maintenance facility are co-located, I will no
longer be supplying tech support for the factory.
Please refer any questions to the numbers on the Europa Website and they
will help you out.
I will personally monitor the matronics list to keep in touch and pass
on my personal comments on your questions if I can be of help.
Of course if you call or email me direct I will still assist where I can
as the US dealer for Europa Aircraft.
I am happy to say that my prostate cancer scare will be soon behind me
as well.
I will have a few paperwork battles, but it is a relief not to have to
shut down the shop, sell off my planes and pee into a bag.
I recently repaired the fuel leak on my 914 fuel line and 12AY is
patiently waiting for the weather and work schedule to allow a test
flight.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
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| Subject: | Re-setting the front socket |
Hi Rick,
Andy Cullum G-CGDH,
I read your script about adding a plate
To your front mounting plate.
With respect,I have to say its a relatively easy exercise to machine out the whole
old plate with a depth set router,set with the depth just short of the 3mm
Mount plate,then you can just peel out the remains of the old plate.
Best regards
Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Bud.
Good to hear from you, It was for me, a very interesting topic as when i look at
the wing attachments they look pretty flimsy,
Initially it was said that the load on the pins are always pulling forward,then
forward got muddled with forward as if flight forward,which i could not understand,as
i have seen many model aircraft wings break off in flight and they just
folded straight up, then the overall purpose and workings of this bar and pins
slowly fell into place,now i have a much better understanding of it.
I have done some work on the plane, now have independent starter and mag switches,
new mounting for ipad, and my torque tube has clamps on s, so no free play,but
have just fitted a new mag ht coil at 288,made in chine for 2.50.
Flying tomorrow to the Isle Of Wight, weather permitting.
All the best.
Alan
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Hi Bud again,
Its been 14 years since I was flying, and the old memory is not as good.
All I can remember is bendy wings, and use to have a weight and balance sheet and
it had this Zero Fuel Weight , think it was about 122000 lbs,
I have this C of G calculator and when I do a weight and balance with the Europa
figures I get an Out of Zero Fuel Wight some times, can,t see how this applies
to a Europa, no wing tanks,
Am I missing something,
Regards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403962#403962
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| Subject: | Re: wing lift/drag pins |
Alan,
Hope the flight goes well. Sounds like you have prepared properly.
As for CG, I am afraid that since this is such a simple airplane, I pull
out the paper form in my checklist and do a quick calc by hand if I am
out of one of my standard load calculations. I had a CG calculator on
my computer and it worked flawlessly, but found it took longer to start
it up, input the garbage, and check the result than it took to do it by
hand. Especially with my standardized computations sheets.
I purchased expensive scales for my shop wt and balance work and
calibrated them of course. Once I do the wt and balance, and compute
the ranges, I must admit I have become somewhat cavalier in my wt and
balance checks. Yes, I am acquiring bad habits.
The reason is, or should I say excuse:
When we finish a plane here we do a number of calculations. Initial
test flight; then max pilot and pax wt with zero fuel and baggage for
max forward CG; then max aft which is usually a 120 pound pilot, max
fuel and max baggage; typical pilot and copilot with full fuel and 2.5
gallon landing and a couple of flight bags for local flying; cross
country pilot and passenger, full takeoff and landing fuel, full baggage
or what the CG or GW will allow. Then I print them up on a sheet for
inclusion in the handbook. Should the owner exceed any of these set CG
comps (like taking off well over max design gross takeoff weight), I go
fly with them and do stalls noting the increases and difference in
break, slow flight, maneuvering and approaches and landings with them
until they are comfortable, understand the load limit restrictions (as
they are well into the safety factors the G limits are changed). I
especially do this if the empty plane is really heavy. Many times I add
stall strips to give better buffet warning prior to the stall.
I have found that I prefer the CG of a fully serviced with oil and
coolant airplane empty CG to be 60 inches. That way a 180 pound pilot,
full or half fuel load for the test flight and only a flight bag allows
me to easily control the plane even if the trim should fail or run away.
On cross country cruising, this allows full fuel for takeoff, full
luggage at 80 pounds and another 180 pound pilot without worry.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Carter<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 6:10 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins
<alancarteresq@onetel.net<mailto:alancarteresq@onetel.net>>
Hi Bud again,
Its been 14 years since I was flying, and the old memory is not as
good.
All I can remember is bendy wings, and use to have a weight and
balance sheet and it had this Zero Fuel Weight , think it was about
122000 lbs,
I have this C of G calculator and when I do a weight and balance with
the Europa figures I get an Out of Zero Fuel Wight some times, can,t see
how this applies to a Europa, no wing tanks,
Am I missing something,
Regards.
Alan
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder |
Graham,
Well said. If a plane comes in here we do the same thing. It saves a
lot of head scratching. We measure root, (granted outside of the filler
and fillets), mid wing between the flap and aileron, and tip. Then
compare the two wing sides. If you adjust the flap and aileron to even
them up (the aileron has to be contoured to stay where you want it) it
makes trimming a lot less trial and error plus you don't need those ugly
bendy tabs.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic
Taildragger Downunder
The AoA that must be accurate is at roughly the outboard end of the
spar.
AoA at the wing root is pretty irrelevant. Think about it, there's
almost no rolling moment there.
I made a jig to measure AoA using the leading edge and the trailing
edge, a Vee on it's side for the LE and a straight edge to sit on the
trailing edge. Straight edge to join the two. This is your datum line,
not essential that it is parallel to the wing chord line but you will
need to use a digital level.
Next get the first wing set up as per the manual.
Now set up the second wing to match the first.
It wouldn't do any harm to check the wings at the tips too, this will
tell you if the wings have different washout angle but maybe you
didn't want to know that!
Graham
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: AirEupora <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net>
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, 4 July 2013, 16:39
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger
Downunder
<AirEupora@sbcglobal.net<mailto:AirEupora@sbcglobal.net>>
Tony, I can tell you from experience that both wings have to be the
same. I set my up with the fuselage bottom only. I now have both top
and bottom on and have 30 hours of flight time. I have a left wing low.
I went back and measured both wings and the right is 2.4 degrees and
the left is 1.7 degrees.
Not sure why! I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on
both wings!
I have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low
speed the aircraft left wing drops in a second. I'm planning on
resetting the front socket.
I'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is
in the fuselage and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to
the ole one then set the wing up correctly.
Do it right the first, second, third time. If it's right you will
have no troubles when you fly it. Use a laser measure from the tail
plane tubes to the wind aileron end plate to set the sweep.
Rick Stockton
N120EJ
Jabiru 3330L
Whirlwind Ground Adjustable
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co===========
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Hi Richard,
Yes saw G-KITS yesterday at Wellesborne,sadly,it's kept outside,
and was showing signs of U.V.light degradation,namely the call-sign lettering was
badly faded and cracked.
More worringly,another Europa there was in the same situation,but that aircraft
was showing signs of Osmosis,
water blisters under the paint.
Water ingress has serious consequences for composite aircraft,
It can add serious amounts of weight,affecting C of G and therefore causing flight
issues,also the water freezes in winter,or at high altitude
Causing structural problems which may
Result in the aircraft unable to withstand flight loads.
Europas should either be kept in an enclosed trailer or in a hangar that is weather
proof when they are not being
Flown,and only kept outside for short
Periods.....owners beware,your lives may depend on it.
Best Regards
Andy Cullum G-CGDH.
Sent from my iPhone
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