---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/04/13: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:47 AM - Trip to Australia, is it possible? (Frans Veldman) 2. 08:40 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (AirEupora) 3. 09:22 AM - Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible? (David Joyce) 4. 09:25 AM - Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible? (David Joyce) 5. 09:39 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Frans Veldman) 6. 10:09 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Fred Klein) 7. 10:09 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Richard Lamprey) 8. 10:12 AM - windscreen de-fogging (Fred Klein) 9. 10:43 AM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Frans Veldman) 10. 10:59 AM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Gilles Thesee) 11. 11:12 AM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 12. 11:41 AM - Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Bud Yerly) 13. 11:43 AM - SV: windscreen de-fogging (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 14. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Bud Yerly) 15. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 16. 12:35 PM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Bud Yerly) 17. 12:40 PM - Re: windscreen de-fogging (Kevin Challis) 18. 12:53 PM - Europa Tech Support (Bud Yerly) 19. 12:56 PM - Re-setting the front socket (andrew cullum) 20. 02:14 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter) 21. 03:11 PM - Re: wing lift/drag pins (Alan Carter) 22. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: wing lift/drag pins (Bud Yerly) 23. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder (Bud Yerly) 24. 08:14 PM - G-KITS. (andrew cullum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:34 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Europa-List: Trip to Australia, is it possible? Hi Friends, After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking fow a new adventure. Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are now wondering if we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised that my son will graduate next year and now he is still living at home and yet old enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our house, webshop and animals, this might be a convenient moment to undertake such a journey. We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world globe and seeing that technically it should be possible. Before putting some time in it and then discovering that some countries would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster to ask for info on this list. I remember having seen some references to such a trip or the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be very valuable to learn from it. First questions that come to mind are: What time of year would be best for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some countries, but is the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the middle-east and aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they tolerate home built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and how much time is needed to get the necessary permissions? Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive or negative. Thanks, Frans ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder From: "AirEupora" Tony, I can tell you from experience that both wings have to be the same. I set my up with the fuselage bottom only. I now have both top and bottom on and have 30 hours of flight time. I have a left wing low. I went back and measured both wings and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees. Not sure why! I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings! I have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low speed the aircraft left wing drops in a second. I'm planning on resetting the front socket. I'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is in the fuselage and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to the ole one then set the wing up correctly. Do it right the first, second, third time. If it's right you will have no troubles when you fly it. Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the wind aileron end plate to set the sweep. Rick Stockton N120EJ Jabiru 3330L Whirlwind Ground Adjustable Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403926#403926 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:01 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trip to Australia, is it possible? Frans, it is possible. A Tiger Moth did it in 2001 or thereabouts. I had planned to do it in 2009 with Ivor Phillips, in one plane each with long range tank sitting in passenger seat. Doing it 2 up would be considerably more of a challenge. We got to an advanced stage in our planning before my son developing Motor Neurone Disease put paid to my plans. We worked out that a March departure was probably optimal. I did write up an article in the Europa Flyer with a brief description of the main issues, but would be p,eased to share that reticle and other fruits of our research with you off list. I have to say hat the more research we did the more apparent it became that it would be very expensive and pone to considerable hassle in many countries once East of central Europe. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:46:50 +0200 Frans Veldman wrote: > > > Hi Friends, > > After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking >fow a new > adventure. > > Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are >now wondering if > we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised >that my son > will graduate next year and now he is still living at >home and yet old > enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our >house, webshop > and animals, this might be a convenient moment to >undertake such a journey. > > We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world >globe and > seeing that technically it should be possible. > > Before putting some time in it and then discovering that >some countries > would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster >to ask for info > on this list. I remember having seen some references to >such a trip or > the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be >very valuable to > learn from it. > >First questions that come to mind are: What time of year >would be best > for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some >countries, but is > the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the >middle-east and > aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they >tolerate home > built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and >how much time is > needed to get the necessary permissions? > > Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive >or negative. > > Thanks, >Frans > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:01 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trip to Australia, is it possible? PS Flying to the Canaries is a moderately challenging adventure which will give you a good flavour of the difficulties of getting permission to fly a Permit A/C through. Non European country. It took me 5 1/2 months to get permission! David On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:46:50 +0200 Frans Veldman wrote: > > > Hi Friends, > > After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking >fow a new > adventure. > > Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are >now wondering if > we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised >that my son > will graduate next year and now he is still living at >home and yet old > enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our >house, webshop > and animals, this might be a convenient moment to >undertake such a journey. > > We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world >globe and > seeing that technically it should be possible. > > Before putting some time in it and then discovering that >some countries > would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster >to ask for info > on this list. I remember having seen some references to >such a trip or > the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be >very valuable to > learn from it. > >First questions that come to mind are: What time of year >would be best > for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some >countries, but is > the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the >middle-east and > aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they >tolerate home > built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and >how much time is > needed to get the necessary permissions? > > Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive >or negative. > > Thanks, >Frans > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:03 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder On 07/04/2013 04:11 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > > > Gidday, I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the > rear face of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used > a digital level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found > the incidence had changed nominally. Forget this digital level. Been there, done that. It changes everytime, depending on where you measure and other obscure variables. It drives you nuts and leads nowhere. And is not precise enough anyway. Prepare two blocks of some suitable material (wood, blue foam), about 4 cm or so high, and make sure they are of exactly the same size. Put them on the trailing edge of the wing, at the same distance from the fuselage. Now walk away from the airplane. At least 5 meters, more is better. Bring the top of the leading edge exactly in line with the block on the trailing edge (just like aiming a gun, you could as well put a needle on the block and a hairline cross sticking out of the leading edge). On both sides (port and starboard) you should have the leading edge and blocks in line at exactly the same eye height. You will notice that moving your eye just a cm up or down will make a whole difference. If you do the math, you will find out that this method is many times more precise than any digital level and you will be able to sight fractions of a degree. What's more, you can repeat this with the blocks at varying distances from the fuselage (but keep port and starboard always at the same distance to cancel the wash out!) and get some "avarage" out of it to cancel out minor imperfections of the shape of the wing. You can get it even more precise if you use some reflecting material, or put a bright LED on top of the blocks, or use some sort of back light. It is just like seeing the exact moment of sun rise or sun set. At 20 meters away it is awfully precise to see if both wings are equal: both leds (or lamps) should rise at exactly the same moment over the leading edge while you move your head slowly up! Less than just a millimeter of difference in trailing edge will be clearly visible. I ended up doing the wings this way, the outcome was stable, repeatable and very precise, and during curing of the araldite I kept the blocks on and "sighted" the wings regularly to be sure that nothing moved. The airplane can be flown right into a stall and just bobs up and down like a straight Cessna, not even the smallest tendency to wing drop. > Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees > which is to me unacceptable, The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly? Then don't worry. I set mine deliberately at 0.1 steeper because I have a high top and would prefer just a tad more nose down to cancel out the steeper angle of the roof and to get more view over the higher firewall. Flies beautifully! Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:02 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: >> >> Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees >> which is to me unacceptable, > > The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly? I believe the XS build manual calls for 2.5 degrees... Fred ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:55 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder From: "Richard Lamprey" Getting it right first time is good. But also I dimly remember (from the days of the Europa Newsletter, around 1997) the tale of G-KITS, the first factory demonstrator for the Classic tri-gear, where one wing was accidentally built with 1 degree WASHIN, not 1.5 degree washout. You would think it would have stall/ wingdrop characteristics from hell, but apparently it flew just fine, and is still flying - I see its picture online. So perhaps there is some leeway in the AoI. Richard Classic Reg 5Y-LRY, Kenya Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403933#403933 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:59 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging Gentlemen, I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job. If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or insufficient...I'd be grateful I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions in UK. Thanks in advance, Fred A-194 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:35 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging On 07/04/2013 07:12 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted > louvers in the top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of > de-fogging the windscreen...I'm uncertain as to what cfm ratings or > sizes will do the job. I did that too, and despite our damp climate I have used them only twice (and found out that they didn't contribute much anyway). You'd probably better save the weight. Frans ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:12 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging Fred Klein a crit : > > Gentlemen, > > I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job. > > If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or insufficient...I'd be grateful > > I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions in UK. > > Hi Fred, Here is what we did recently : http://contrails.free.fr/cellule_defog_en.php Not much weight involved (about 700-800 g) though we feel that our 380 kg four seater is a bit on the heavy side ;-) FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Fred "If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or insufficient" I chose to use four 12 volt mini fans. They are run off a 3 position (low, high and off). If 2 are put in series it's low, and if run off bus voltage, then high. Yes idea as a minimiist demister but also to get heat out from under instrument module. You can find info on what I am doing (I did quite a bit of fooling with different fans. There is also a folder on that page "Panel cooling and demisting ideas by others." http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305 I am installing temp probes under the instrument module so will be able to see temps. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:26 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder Tony, Welcome to my world. The first Europa I purchased used had the left wing at 2.6 and the right at 3.1. I moved the sockets in the right fuselage side to 2.6. It flies straight and true. If you were to set both at 2.8 degrees your fuselage will be nose down a bit at cruise, which shouldn't hurt a thing. Just go for it. As for your gear relationship, deck angle etc. on landing, I can only say that the extra bit of incidence will allow you to be closer to the stall angle at the three point touchdown and improve over the nose visibility. In practice I found that I can correct with flap and aileron trimming up to .2 degrees incidence difference and you will never see my changes. At .4 incidence difference, I have to modify the the wing leading edge to get a perfectly straight stall. First consider this: To be sure as Frans and others might say that later, that all digital and spirit or bubble levels are not equal. In fact I have one that is off .3 degrees when tested at three degrees. My test bench is a simple 3 inch block in 60 inches and with the level facing one direction and when the level is rotated 180 degrees putting the scale window on the other side it measures 2.7 degrees rather than the three. That's 10 percent off. So it is best to set your spirit level or digital level on a dead flat surface and check the zero to 3 degree setting. I used to set my level at 2.5 degrees (2.5 inch board at 60 inches) 3 degrees, 5 degrees and 12 degrees for calibration purposes of the wing incidence, and tail planes to make sure things are fairly close to the manual. Since your sockets are only in Redux, snap them off and fix them both is what I would do. I have found that the best way to make sure things don't move is to shore up the wing well during cure. Just in case the temp changes over cure time, I block the gear also if necessary. Trigear, I put a pipe in the main gear, and for the conventional, I block the spring gear itself. I know that you don't really want to hear this but the standard rule in my shop is take it apart and put it together (normally about 5 times) until it is repeatable and easy to do. That means when building glider wings, or rigging the plane, or hanging the cowl if you try to do things in one shot, you will have to redo it to get it right. The worst thing to happen when rigging wings is to have the left spar creep aft during the socket build up then it causes so many troubles down the road. Take your time, make sure it fits all around then tack it in place. The only difference between a professional build and an amateur build, is I know how to fix my mistakes before it affects something else. As for the tail dragger, good luck. It is best to modify the gear to get the position of the axle to leading edge of the wing MAC (about 2/3 out on the wing from fuselage centerline) over the axle with the fuselage in level position. Contact Grove, as Bobby Grove has a couple of solutions. (New gear or 1/4 inch steel plates to increase deck angle and move the axles back about 4-5 inches. As the gear as is, I find it un-gratifying to fly the gear as designed. It is very tough to wheel land the conventional due to the spring stiffness and forward position. With a 10 Knot cross wind I can land on one main and do a wheel landing with ease and no tire wear (without the crosswind, tire wear on a wing low slightly slipped landing is more than I care to pay for). Three point is not a problem. It is quite tough to teach a new guy how to land and takeoff with the gear as set. It's a mono except it doesn't fall over when the wings are pulled off. If you hit mains first with any vertical component, the tail drops faster than you can react and combined with the extra lift from the drooping tail added to the gear spring reaction, you get launched back in the air, then hit the tail wheel, you over correct and down on the main again resulting in a porpoise which continues to increase in speed and frequency naturally and any PIO combination can be a disaster. Just go around and get the tail wheel on first. Don't relax on roll out as between 45 to a fast walk it tends to wander and you have to "stay on it". Not difficult to master, it just takes practice, discipline and the ability to go around early when it doesn't work out on first contact. Go around early and save yourself and the plane. I highly recommend you do not install a fully swiveling tail wheel unless you can lock it from the cockpit as the torque of a 912S with Airmaster is enough that a moment of inattention or failure to keep the stick full back is a real eye opener for the new guy on takeoff if the tail wheel is not positively locked. Next, on landing or a bounce, if slightly sideways, the tail wheel may unlock and you will be off to the races with no tail control but the rudder which is not effective at really low speed on takeoff or roll out... Find a Luscombe with a bad wheel alignment on steroids to practice with on asphalt. Keep it straight, lower your IQ to a 2 and hold it off until hit the tail wheel first. You'll be fine. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Renshaw To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder > Gidday, I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the rear face of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used a digital level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found the incidence had changed nominally. I have attempted to make a small adjustment with the TE socket position which is reduced but not bolted, yet. It was suggested that I could twist the spar nominally to get the angle accurate but to be honest I didn't like doing that although I suppose it wouldn't have mattered that much because we might only be talking about a % of a single degree of twist. Still, I didn't like that idea. Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees which is to me unacceptable, BUT, its a lot of work to undo things. That probably isn't completely true as I only have the sockets mounted with Redux, so I could heat them and snap them off and start again, but I worry I'm going to do a lot of work and may well end up right back where I've started. My pins fit nicely ! in the back of the seat, and that took a lot of mucking around, and I worry that to undo things and redo them I mightn't get the same result. I want to know what people think of this angle, whether anyone else has not set it perfectly, what difference they perceive it might make on their plane, and whether anyone has factual consequence of it not being 100% right. I do worry only about the relationship of the tailplane to the wing, but having a fully flyable tailplane removes some of the problems of not having a perfect AoI. The impact could be however that at optimum in trim cruise the tailplane may be at a slightly different angle at an optimum CoG, and the full range of pitch may be not what was originally planned. So, if anyone has advice I'd really appreciate input. I should also add that I am building a taildraggers, a Bob Berube mod from Florida, which relies on the same moments as the mono wheel by having the design such that the a/c has a similar stature on the ground. Maybe the higher AoI might be a bonus, and help me fly away better, climb better, but no go quite as fast. To be honest, I don't care anymore as I would prefer to not have to undo stuff I have done. I'm becoming pretty good at that but unfortunately keep practicing the skill. Regards Tony Renshaw http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:07 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging Hi Fred, I use the big fan up front! The NACA inlet on the right side, originally intended for fresh air into the cockpit, is not leading air into the cockpit but into the panel (made a duct of bid and epoxy from the NACA to the right underside corner of the panel, easily removable by one screw. On top of the panel, I have made long cutouts about 1/4" wide, close to the front edge. Leave enough un-cut material to maintain strength, ref. the bolts holding the panel to the top of the firewall. It is surprising how tight the panel is along the bottom, but if necessary you can put in some soft foam or other suitable sealing material (I have not). Soon after starting the engine, while the oil is still warming up before starting to taxi, I can see the mist disappearing on the front window. Heating of the air flowing through behind the panel is from the instruments and through the firewall. This ventilation therefore also helps keeping the instrument temps down (never has been an issue, even in southern Europe on hot summer days). As you well know, no air comes into the cockpit unless it also is allowed to escape. I assume you already have made an efficient air outlet from the cockpit, both for this de-mist air, for fresh air into the cockpit in the summer (through the left side NACA in my case) and for cabin heating in the cold season (I take warm air from behind the water cooler). Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:34 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins Alan, Your analysis of the bar and reason for the aft socket pin is good enough to build the plane or maintain it. Understanding the lift affects is really a vector analysis exercise. I studied a T-28 wing failure accident and we were lucky enough to have a video of the failure. The wing failed at a speed of 270 KIAS and the video clearly showed that when the badly corroded spar and skin failed (main wing spar is at about the 1/4 chord) the wing went full up as if it were folded and hit the pilot on the head killing him instantly not aft at all. In another accident at an airshow the main spar failed first and began to flutter, the pilot unloaded and the main spar failed first, and the wing trailed aft because the wing twisted up and aft spar and upper skin hung on longer. Tragic accidents but changes were made and T-28s still fly on well, when properly maintained. When building model airplanes as a kid and just experimenting with tailless designs, using a Clark Y airfoil, it flipped nose up badly even when the CG was on the CL due to the wing pitching moment. The same test with a symetrical airfoil was a piece of cake. The symetrical airfoil has no pitching moment until the flaperon was deflected then whamo. The wing lift vector is not perpendicular to the chord or angle of attack but is drawn as such in many training documents. In the US Air Force I was drafted to rewrite the aero portion of our pilot texts and teach it for a year. I had to teach the test questions because most pilots (the generals included) are not aerodynamicists they know that the houses get bigger when pushing forward and smaller when pulling back unless you pull too much back stick. Things like if the engine quits, bail out, and you can never have too much fuel (unless you are on fire) works in some cases, but not for us lowly piston engine guys who do not have fuel dumps and ejection seats. Our little bird will pull forward on the aft support at modest and high angles of attack and when unloaded to 1 G or less will go to neutral and then to compression. Get it flying and enjoy the plane. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Carter To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 1:36 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins > Hello Frans. Who is pulling it. Gravity It will move is an arc towards the ground. A wing is similar to a sail on a sailing boat. You can not sail directly into wind you can get to about 30 degrees of it. Sorry Frans but at the moment i am still puzzled. At the moment i am thinking this bar has three purposes, 1. to prevent the drag pulling the wing back, which is most of the time. 2. two provide the rigidity to the structure so keeping the front pin locked into its mounting. 3. to stop the wing coming "forwards" in abnormal wing loadings, Possible very high A/A, near the stall, or gusts, or abnormal flight attitudes. This puts this bar in compression , tension and neutral loads But i am willing to change my mind,as i have used up ask a friend, may be its time to ask the audience, Regards . Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403725#403725 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:00 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder The AoA that must be accurate is at roughly the outboard end of the spar. =0AAoA at the wing root is pretty irrelevant. Think about it, there's almos t no rolling moment there. =0AI made a jig to measure AoA using the leading edge and the trailing edge, a Vee on it's side for the LE and a straight e dge to sit on the trailing edge. Straight edge to join the two. This is you r datum line, not essential that it is parallel to the wing chord line but you will need to use a digital level.=0ANext get the first wing set up as p er the manual.=0ANow set up the second wing to match the first. =0AIt would n't do any harm to check the wings at the tips too, this will=0Atell you if the wings have different washout angle but maybe you didn't want to know t hat!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: AirEu pora =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thu rsday, 4 July 2013, 16:39=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by : "AirEupora" =0A=0ATony, I can tell you from expe rience that both wings have to be the same.- I set my up with the fuselag e bottom only.- I now have both top and bottom on and have 30 hours of fl ight time.- I have a left wing low.- I went back and measured both wing s and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees.- =0A=0ANot su re why!- I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings! =0A=0AI have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low spe ed the aircraft left wing drops in a second.- I'm planning on resetting t he front socket.- =0A=0AI'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is in the fuselage and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to the ole one then set the wing up correctly.=0A=0ADo it righ t the first, second, third time.- If it's right you will have no troubles when you fly it.- Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the w ind aileron end plate to set the sweep.=0A=0ARick Stockton=0AN120EJ=0AJabir u 3330L=0AWhirlwind Ground Adjustable=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403926#403926=0A ==================== ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:56 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging Ron, I installed both 40 mm and 80 mm computer CPU fans and frankly, the 40s don't move that much air. The 80s do better at venting the hot air out of the panel. Some electronics get quite warm and I wanted to cool the panel, not really defrost. That was a hopeful side effect of the installation of the fans. The first setup on 12AY I put the fans too far forward and they blow into the windscreen support. To be honest, I can't even feel the air flow moving up the windscreen, it moves sideways. That was a dumb execution of a good idea. On others, I move the fans as far aft toward the pilot as I can to pull the Garmin 430 and Dynon Skyview heat out of the panel. They both get pretty hot. I have found that the air comes up the windscreen, but is not hot enough or fast enough in the winter to feel like a defogger, but at least it moves the air up the windscreen. If you have an Ameriking type cooling fan, one leg of that would be about as strong as my two 80s... The Grand Rapids and Becker radios are pretty cool running and frankly the panel only gets about 10 degrees warmer than the cockpit, so without the heat and high forced air flow of an auto type defogger, I do not see it as much help on a cold day at altitude with a quick descent to the warmer air below steaming things up. Sorry I don't have more info for you. It's just too hot here in Florida. Even in the winter, although my canopy top fogs up and my screen fogs for a second or two, they both clear once the inside and outside temps stabilize. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: Europa Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:11 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging Hi Fred "If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or insufficient" I chose to use four 12 volt mini fans. They are run off a 3 position (low, high and off). If 2 are put in series it's low, and if run off bus voltage, then high. Yes idea as a minimiist demister but also to get heat out from under instrument module. You can find info on what I am doing (I did quite a bit of fooling with different fans. There is also a folder on that page "Panel cooling and demisting ideas by others." http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305 I am installing temp probes under the instrument module so will be able to see temps. Ron Parigoris http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging From: Kevin Challis I have no fans and it gets a little fogged up on the ground in the winter but I open the door and it clears. I never have any problems in the air and I have no heater. Kevin Challis G ODJG Tri gear 912s On 4 Jul 2013, at 19:12, Fred Klein wrote: > > Gentlemen, > > I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job. > > If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or insufficient...I'd be grateful > > I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions in UK. > > Thanks in advance, > > Fred > A-194 > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:39 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tech Support Guys, As you know Europa is finally in there new digs at Wombleton Airfield, York, UK. I am so happy for Dave Stanbridge and all the folks at Wombleton, because who would not be excited about owning your own airport and airplane factory. Now that the factory and maintenance facility are co-located, I will no longer be supplying tech support for the factory. Please refer any questions to the numbers on the Europa Website and they will help you out. I will personally monitor the matronics list to keep in touch and pass on my personal comments on your questions if I can be of help. Of course if you call or email me direct I will still assist where I can as the US dealer for Europa Aircraft. I am happy to say that my prostate cancer scare will be soon behind me as well. I will have a few paperwork battles, but it is a relief not to have to shut down the shop, sell off my planes and pee into a bag. I recently repaired the fuel leak on my 914 fuel line and 12AY is patiently waiting for the weather and work schedule to allow a test flight. Regards, Bud Yerly ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:34 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re-setting the front socket From: andrew cullum Hi Rick, Andy Cullum G-CGDH, I read your script about adding a plate To your front mounting plate. With respect,I have to say its a relatively easy exercise to machine out the whole old plate with a depth set router,set with the depth just short of the 3mm Mount plate,then you can just peel out the remains of the old plate. Best regards Andy Cullum. Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:42 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins From: "Alan Carter" Hi Bud. Good to hear from you, It was for me, a very interesting topic as when i look at the wing attachments they look pretty flimsy, Initially it was said that the load on the pins are always pulling forward,then forward got muddled with forward as if flight forward,which i could not understand,as i have seen many model aircraft wings break off in flight and they just folded straight up, then the overall purpose and workings of this bar and pins slowly fell into place,now i have a much better understanding of it. I have done some work on the plane, now have independent starter and mag switches, new mounting for ipad, and my torque tube has clamps on s, so no free play,but have just fitted a new mag ht coil at 288,made in chine for 2.50. Flying tomorrow to the Isle Of Wight, weather permitting. All the best. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403958#403958 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:17 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins From: "Alan Carter" Hi Bud again, Its been 14 years since I was flying, and the old memory is not as good. All I can remember is bendy wings, and use to have a weight and balance sheet and it had this Zero Fuel Weight , think it was about 122000 lbs, I have this C of G calculator and when I do a weight and balance with the Europa figures I get an Out of Zero Fuel Wight some times, can,t see how this applies to a Europa, no wing tanks, Am I missing something, Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403962#403962 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:03 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins Alan, Hope the flight goes well. Sounds like you have prepared properly. As for CG, I am afraid that since this is such a simple airplane, I pull out the paper form in my checklist and do a quick calc by hand if I am out of one of my standard load calculations. I had a CG calculator on my computer and it worked flawlessly, but found it took longer to start it up, input the garbage, and check the result than it took to do it by hand. Especially with my standardized computations sheets. I purchased expensive scales for my shop wt and balance work and calibrated them of course. Once I do the wt and balance, and compute the ranges, I must admit I have become somewhat cavalier in my wt and balance checks. Yes, I am acquiring bad habits. The reason is, or should I say excuse: When we finish a plane here we do a number of calculations. Initial test flight; then max pilot and pax wt with zero fuel and baggage for max forward CG; then max aft which is usually a 120 pound pilot, max fuel and max baggage; typical pilot and copilot with full fuel and 2.5 gallon landing and a couple of flight bags for local flying; cross country pilot and passenger, full takeoff and landing fuel, full baggage or what the CG or GW will allow. Then I print them up on a sheet for inclusion in the handbook. Should the owner exceed any of these set CG comps (like taking off well over max design gross takeoff weight), I go fly with them and do stalls noting the increases and difference in break, slow flight, maneuvering and approaches and landings with them until they are comfortable, understand the load limit restrictions (as they are well into the safety factors the G limits are changed). I especially do this if the empty plane is really heavy. Many times I add stall strips to give better buffet warning prior to the stall. I have found that I prefer the CG of a fully serviced with oil and coolant airplane empty CG to be 60 inches. That way a 180 pound pilot, full or half fuel load for the test flight and only a flight bag allows me to easily control the plane even if the trim should fail or run away. On cross country cruising, this allows full fuel for takeoff, full luggage at 80 pounds and another 180 pound pilot without worry. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Carter To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 6:10 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins > Hi Bud again, Its been 14 years since I was flying, and the old memory is not as good. All I can remember is bendy wings, and use to have a weight and balance sheet and it had this Zero Fuel Weight , think it was about 122000 lbs, I have this C of G calculator and when I do a weight and balance with the Europa figures I get an Out of Zero Fuel Wight some times, can,t see how this applies to a Europa, no wing tanks, Am I missing something, Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403962#403962 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:02 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder Graham, Well said. If a plane comes in here we do the same thing. It saves a lot of head scratching. We measure root, (granted outside of the filler and fillets), mid wing between the flap and aileron, and tip. Then compare the two wing sides. If you adjust the flap and aileron to even them up (the aileron has to be contoured to stay where you want it) it makes trimming a lot less trial and error plus you don't need those ugly bendy tabs. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: GRAHAM SINGLETON To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 3:29 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder The AoA that must be accurate is at roughly the outboard end of the spar. AoA at the wing root is pretty irrelevant. Think about it, there's almost no rolling moment there. I made a jig to measure AoA using the leading edge and the trailing edge, a Vee on it's side for the LE and a straight edge to sit on the trailing edge. Straight edge to join the two. This is your datum line, not essential that it is parallel to the wing chord line but you will need to use a digital level. Next get the first wing set up as per the manual. Now set up the second wing to match the first. It wouldn't do any harm to check the wings at the tips too, this will tell you if the wings have different washout angle but maybe you didn't want to know that! Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: AirEupora To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, 4 July 2013, 16:39 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder > Tony, I can tell you from experience that both wings have to be the same. I set my up with the fuselage bottom only. I now have both top and bottom on and have 30 hours of flight time. I have a left wing low. I went back and measured both wings and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees. Not sure why! I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings! I have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low speed the aircraft left wing drops in a second. I'm planning on resetting the front socket. I'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is in the fuselage and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to the ole one then set the wing up correctly. Do it right the first, second, third time. If it's right you will have no troubles when you fly it. Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the wind aileron end plate to set the sweep. Rick Stockton N120EJ Jabiru 3330L Whirlwind Ground Adjustable Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=cs.com/Navigator?Europa-Lis t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matr &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co=========== ====== http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:46 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: G-KITS. From: andrew cullum Hi Richard, Yes saw G-KITS yesterday at Wellesborne,sadly,it's kept outside, and was showing signs of U.V.light degradation,namely the call-sign lettering was badly faded and cracked. More worringly,another Europa there was in the same situation,but that aircraft was showing signs of Osmosis, water blisters under the paint. Water ingress has serious consequences for composite aircraft, It can add serious amounts of weight,affecting C of G and therefore causing flight issues,also the water freezes in winter,or at high altitude Causing structural problems which may Result in the aircraft unable to withstand flight loads. Europas should either be kept in an enclosed trailer or in a hangar that is weather proof when they are not being Flown,and only kept outside for short Periods.....owners beware,your lives may depend on it. Best Regards Andy Cullum G-CGDH. 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