Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:43 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Duncan & Ami)
2. 03:11 AM - Re: Outside aircraft (DAVID JOYCE)
3. 10:21 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Andrew Sarangan)
4. 10:37 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Pete)
5. 11:13 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Andrew Sarangan)
6. 12:09 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Fred Klein)
7. 12:25 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Pete)
8. 12:26 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Pete)
9. 12:59 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Fred Klein)
10. 02:18 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Andrew Sarangan)
11. 03:45 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (brian long)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fuel tank question |
The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
DMcF
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
--> <asc23111964@hotmail.co.uk>
Hi Andrew,
One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
going to
use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
> --> <asarangan@gmail.com>
>
> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
> concerned.
>
> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>
> Thanks in advance!!
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Outside aircraft |
Agreed..................=0A-=0AWe will all be able to criticise another a
ircraft if we want too, there but for the grace of God go I=0A-=0Afrom th
e other one!=0A=0ASent to you from David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.
co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 6 July 2013, 20:2
4=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Outside aircraft=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List me
ssage posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>=0A=0AI can't understand
the motivation for these threads, this and the one re G KITS, unless I am
being thick it sounds like someone has wandered up to someone elses plane s
een letters faded etc and proceeded to have a public, in print for all time
, slagging off of it and its state. Is this a good way to carry on? This do
esnt sound like the europa forum to me. Even if there were facts rather tha
n views it wouldnt be fair.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Cla
ssic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 75 hours 18 months =0Ag(at)gdbmk.co.
uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.
=========
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the
attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank
can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able
to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am
gathering from these discussions.
More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is
made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,
LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat
familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different
materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and
nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different
polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever
figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami <ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net> wrote:
>
> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
>
> DMcF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
>
>
> --> <asc23111964@hotmail.co.uk>
>
> Hi Andrew,
> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
> going to
> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> --> <asarangan@gmail.com>
>>
>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
>> concerned.
>>
>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they
confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that the
level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I will
have less swelling issues down the road.
Cheers,
Pete
On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the
> attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank
> can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able
> to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am
> gathering from these discussions.
>
> More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is
> made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,
> LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat
> familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different
> materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and
> nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different
> polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever
> figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami <ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>
>> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
>> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
>> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
>> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
>>
>> DMcF
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
>> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
>>
>>
>> --> <asc23111964@hotmail.co.uk>
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
>> going to
>> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
>> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
>> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
>> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
>> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
>> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> --> <asarangan@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
>>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
>>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
>>> concerned.
>>>
>>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
>>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
>>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
>>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance!!
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
Thanks Pete. I am just about to embark on that route. I haven't called
them yet, but I am considering Fluoro Seal (http://www.fluoroseal.com)
if they are willing to take small jobs. They have a facility that is
within an hour driving from me.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they
confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
>
> The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that
the level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I
will have less swelling issues down the road.
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the
>> attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank
>> can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able
>> to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am
>> gathering from these discussions.
>>
>> More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is
>> made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,
>> LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat
>> familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different
>> materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and
>> nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different
>> polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever
>> figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami <ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
>>> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
>>> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
>>> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
>>>
>>> DMcF
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
>>> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
>>>
>>>
>>> --> <asc23111964@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
>>> going to
>>> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
>>> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
>>> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
>>> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
>>> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
>>> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> <asarangan@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
>>>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
>>>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
>>>> concerned.
>>>>
>>>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
>>>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
>>>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
>>>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:
> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial
outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
Pete...and your kit # is...?...
thanks,
Fred
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
Oops...should have included it in my sig....
a239
Indeed it *was* factory fourinated, albeit i have to assume to a lower level
.
The industrial folks who I used had different levels, the highest of which i
s used by the auto industry for their plastic fuel tanks, and is the level I
had requested. Lower levels are used by the shampoo co's :-)
Cheers,
Pete
Ps- I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years a
go to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $
35 :-)
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
a239
On Jul 7, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:
>
>> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfi
t, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
>
> Pete...and your kit # is...?...
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
PS - the Europa factory obviously treats prior to finish cuts as well.....
which pretty well negates the value of the process imho.
Cheers,
Pete
a239
On Jul 7, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:
>
>> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfi
t, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
>
> Pete...and your kit # is...?...
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already
installed, w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of
years ago to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was
a trivial $35 :-)
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks
(#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was
$300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the
cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it
anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could
be worth thousands of dollars.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
> Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,
> w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
>
> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago
> to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35
> :-)
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
I am about to embark on a tank replacement. I don't have the tank yet but
I'm interested, so contact me and tell me more.
Brian Long
A124
On Sunday, July 7, 2013, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> >
>
> So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks
> (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was
> $300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the
> cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it
> anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could
> be worth thousands of dollars.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already
> installed,
> > w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
> >
> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
> >
> > I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years
> ago
> > to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial
> $35
> > :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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