---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/07/13: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:43 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Duncan & Ami) 2. 03:11 AM - Re: Outside aircraft (DAVID JOYCE) 3. 10:21 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Andrew Sarangan) 4. 10:37 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Pete) 5. 11:13 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (Andrew Sarangan) 6. 12:09 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Fred Klein) 7. 12:25 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Pete) 8. 12:26 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Pete) 9. 12:59 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Fred Klein) 10. 02:18 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (Andrew Sarangan) 11. 03:45 PM - Re: Fuel tank question (brian long) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:59 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank question The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different. The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990. DMcF -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question --> Hi Andrew, One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are going to use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum. Sent from my iPhone On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote: > --> > > After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the > stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of > discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit > concerned. > > Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written > by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to > support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like > solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights. > > Thanks in advance!! > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:05 AM PST US From: DAVID JOYCE Subject: Europa-List: Re: Outside aircraft Agreed..................=0A-=0AWe will all be able to criticise another a ircraft if we want too, there but for the grace of God go I=0A-=0Afrom th e other one!=0A=0ASent to you from David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: graeme bird =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 6 July 2013, 20:2 4=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Outside aircraft=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List me ssage posted by: "graeme bird" =0A=0AI can't understand the motivation for these threads, this and the one re G KITS, unless I am being thick it sounds like someone has wandered up to someone elses plane s een letters faded etc and proceeded to have a public, in print for all time , slagging off of it and its state. Is this a good way to carry on? This do esnt sound like the europa forum to me. Even if there were facts rather tha n views it wouldnt be fair.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Cla ssic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 75 hours 18 months =0Ag(at)gdbmk.co. uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics. ========= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:27 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am gathering from these discussions. More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE, LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here. On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote: > > The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back > over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the > initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different. > The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990. > > DMcF > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum > Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question > > > --> > > Hi Andrew, > One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are > going to > use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at > least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent > With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to > be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this > pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a > good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum. > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote: > >> --> >> >> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the >> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of >> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit >> concerned. >> >> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written >> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to >> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like >> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights. >> >> Thanks in advance!! >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question From: Pete When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw. The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that the level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I will have less swelling issues down the road. Cheers, Pete On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the > attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank > can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able > to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am > gathering from these discussions. > > More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is > made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE, > LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat > familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different > materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and > nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different > polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever > figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here. > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote: >> >> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back >> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the >> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different. >> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990. >> >> DMcF >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum >> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question >> >> >> --> >> >> Hi Andrew, >> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are >> going to >> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at >> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent >> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to >> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this >> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a >> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote: >> >>> --> >>> >>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the >>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of >>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit >>> concerned. >>> >>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written >>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to >>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like >>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights. >>> >>> Thanks in advance!! > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:30 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question Thanks Pete. I am just about to embark on that route. I haven't called them yet, but I am considering Fluoro Seal (http://www.fluoroseal.com) if they are willing to take small jobs. They have a facility that is within an hour driving from me. On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Pete wrote: > > When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw. > > The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that the level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I will have less swelling issues down the road. > > Cheers, > Pete > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > >> >> Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the >> attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank >> can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able >> to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am >> gathering from these discussions. >> >> More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is >> made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE, >> LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat >> familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different >> materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and >> nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different >> polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever >> figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote: >>> >>> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back >>> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the >>> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different. >>> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990. >>> >>> DMcF >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum >>> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53 >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question >>> >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Hi Andrew, >>> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are >>> going to >>> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at >>> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent >>> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to >>> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this >>> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a >>> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote: >>> >>>> --> >>>> >>>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the >>>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of >>>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit >>>> concerned. >>>> >>>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written >>>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to >>>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like >>>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance!! >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:36 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote: > When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw. Pete...and your kit # is...?... thanks, Fred ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:26 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question Oops...should have included it in my sig.... a239 Indeed it *was* factory fourinated, albeit i have to assume to a lower level .. The industrial folks who I used had different levels, the highest of which i s used by the auto industry for their plastic fuel tanks, and is the level I had requested. Lower levels are used by the shampoo co's :-) Cheers, Pete Ps- I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years a go to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $ 35 :-) Cheers and blue skies, Pete a239 On Jul 7, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote: > >> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfi t, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw. > > Pete...and your kit # is...?... > > thanks, > > Fred > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question From: Pete PS - the Europa factory obviously treats prior to finish cuts as well..... which pretty well negates the value of the process imho. Cheers, Pete a239 On Jul 7, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote: > >> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfi t, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw. > > Pete...and your kit # is...?... > > thanks, > > Fred > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:16 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed, w/ tank buried within of course...Fred On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote: > I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35 :-) > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:55 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was $300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could be worth thousands of dollars. On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed, > w/ tank buried within of course...Fred > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote: > > I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago > to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35 > :-) > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question From: brian long I am about to embark on a tank replacement. I don't have the tank yet but I'm interested, so contact me and tell me more. Brian Long A124 On Sunday, July 7, 2013, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > > > So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks > (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was > $300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the > cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it > anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could > be worth thousands of dollars. > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein > > wrote: > > Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already > installed, > > w/ tank buried within of course...Fred > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote: > > > > I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years > ago > > to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial > $35 > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.