---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/28/13: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:32 AM - Old Classic needs upgrade to 912S 100hp (jonathanmilbank) 2. 03:02 AM - Re: AW: G Load testing (John Wighton) 3. 03:06 AM - Re: AW: G Load testing (John Wighton) 4. 03:40 AM - Re: Old Classic needs upgrade to 912S 100hp (David Watts) 5. 04:35 AM - AW: Re: AW: G Load testing (UVTREITH) 6. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: AW: G Load testing (craig) 7. 05:12 PM - Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length (Tony Renshaw) 8. 05:53 PM - Re: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length (rparigoris) 9. 06:09 PM - Fixing misaligned spar bush (Andrew Sarangan) 10. 07:16 PM - Flap Deployment Limit for an Electric Flap Aircraft (Tony Renshaw) 11. 07:41 PM - Re: Fixing misaligned spar bush (rparigoris) 12. 08:16 PM - Re: Flap Deployment Limit for an Electric Flap Aircraft (rparigoris) 13. 08:51 PM - Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea? (rparigoris) 14. 10:39 PM - Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea? (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:23 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Old Classic needs upgrade to 912S 100hp From: "jonathanmilbank" Neville Eyre has kindly given me answers to some questions and also pointed out that the newer 912S has a larger starter motor, which won't fit into my old-style engine bearer frame. So I'm going to need to acquire a new-ish engine (few 100 hours) with the smaller starter. How much of a "rod for my own back" will I be making by doing this? How much trouble will I have starting? Is it "wrist-slashingly" frustrating? How long before the starter might need replacing? Another serious issue will be engine heat dissipation and Neville has indicated that others have created a "gob" in the cowling below the propeller, directing 1/3 of its air through the oil cooler and 2/3 through the shrouds covering the cylinders. Please would you help me by sending pictures of such a "gob" intake and also of the additional cooling modifications inside the cowling. All suggestions for effecting this modification and any associated diagrams will be gratefully received. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405476#405476 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: AW: G Load testing From: "John Wighton" The issue of load testing should be approached very carefully. as a30+ experienced aeronautical engineer, Chief of Stress at Pilatus Aircraft hopefully l can assist with a few pointers. The design load level LIMIT loading is determined from the certification basis (or approval basis) of the aircraft. For LAA projects this is likely to be +4/-2, without the consideration of gusts. The VN diagram submitted by Europa for the original will be basis that needs to be used. Additional factors applicable will include the ULTIMATE factor, usually 1.5, Special Factors, these could include a factor for composites (usually negotiated as 1.5 to account for hot humid material property degradation), plus others that are agreed with the approving/certifying agency. For a wing bending test, which is important but NOT the only test that is required, the calculation for total load would be 621kg x 4 x1.5 x1.5 - (wing mass). The wing mass can be left on and is conservative). This makes a total mass of 5590kg or 2790kg per wing for Europa XS. The next step is to determine the spanwise and chordwise distribution of this load. There are many issues to be considered here, however, a justification of the distribution used, coupled with the correct angle of attach, is sufficient. Other cases with loader total loading may be more critical, such as torsional cases driven by manoeuvre control inputs or flap loads should also be considered. Typically for an aircraft of the Europa class the load calcs take around 200-1000hrs. A test plan to cover the critical ones needs to be created and submitted for approval (and often observation) by the authorities. It is normal to correlate test data with predictive calculations (done using a combination of finite element models and hand calcs). Hence the test is normally a confirmation of the predicted structural performance (deformed shape, stress/strain levels, failure locations if ULT+ loads are applied. A light aircraft design and certification can absorb many 10,000 of man hours. Typically around 20 to 50 times the retail price of the aircraft (rough guide as the cost curve is exponential). Making the design certification cost of a 750kg VLA around 2 to 5 million. Hopefully this has been useful to someone? Regards John -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405477#405477 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:48 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: AW: G Load testing From: "John Wighton" Incidentally l counted 43 bags per wing at 25kg per bag making a per wing total of 1075kg, loaded to 38% ULT. Which identifies the normal issues, the loading method is not appropriate for the required mass. A higher density material or a whiffle tree is required. Regards JW -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405478#405478 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:14 AM PST US From: David Watts Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Classic needs upgrade to 912S 100hp Jonathan, After I put 1000 hours on the 912UL in my classic, I replaced it with a 912ULS using the original classic starter plus a Skydrive Soft Start Module and their Carb Heat Kit too. I now have over 1000 hours on this setup too and as long as the battery is in good condition it starts just fine, summer or winter. Dave Watts Classic Monowheel G-BXDY On 28 Jul 2013, at 10:31, "jonathanmilbank" wrote: > > Neville Eyre has kindly given me answers to some questions and also pointed out that the newer 912S has a larger starter motor, which won't fit into my old-style engine bearer frame. So I'm going to need to acquire a new-ish engine (few 100 hours) with the smaller starter. > > How much of a "rod for my own back" will I be making by doing this? How much trouble will I have starting? Is it "wrist-slashingly" frustrating? How long before the starter might need replacing? > > Another serious issue will be engine heat dissipation and Neville has indicated that others have created a "gob" in the cowling below the propeller, directing 1/3 of its air through the oil cooler and 2/3 through the shrouds covering the cylinders. > > Please would you help me by sending pictures of such a "gob" intake and also of the additional cooling modifications inside the cowling. All suggestions for effecting this modification and any associated diagrams will be gratefully received. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405476#405476 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:19 AM PST US From: "UVTREITH" Subject: AW: Europa-List: Re: AW: G Load testing Hi Paul, Here are some pictures. 02+04 is preparation with a soft foam blanket on which we also marked the position of the concrete bags, each 25 kg. 07 shows the support winches, which you can release very slowly and jumpless 15 shows the measurement after each load increase, 16+17 the full load of each side and 21 the full load spread. Each side 1035 kg concrete bags, therefore 2.070 kg in total. To this you have to add the wing weight of 94-100 kg complete, depends on build. The winches were released free (you can see it on the loose foam supports). One problem was that the support timber sticks were too short, so that we had to do some work on the wing surface later. A similar test was also done with the tail plane 100 to 150 kg and opposite (pictures 9839, 9842 and 9845 With picture 9854 you can see, that this load test on a classic one failed. The fuselage/cockpit was not correct made and the fuse started to bulk out. This was later repaired and than ok. This is the wing load test, approved by the OUV and LBA here in Germany Bruno _____ Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Paul McAllister Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2013 17:34 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Re: AW: G Load testing Does anyone have any photos that show the entire wing under load where I can see the deflection? On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 6:24 AM, gtagr wrote: Bruno, Thanks for your post -we can trust a German to provide some excellent detail! That photo gives me great confidence in the design - they are bags of cement? Clive :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405403#405403 ========== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:09 PM PST US From: "craig" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: AW: G Load testing Thanks john this "For a wing bending test, which is important but NOT the only test that is required, the calculation for total load would be 621kg x 4 x1.5 x1.5 - (wing mass). The wing mass can be left on and is conservative). This makes a total mass of 5590kg or 2790kg per wing for Europa XS." Is more or less what I was expecting, I take it the extra 1.5 multiplier is for the Composite factor you mentioned Regards craig ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:34 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length Gidday, Building a taildragger version I am not constrained by gear/flap geometry to determine the flap I can deploy, since they will be electric. I feel I recall the tricycle undercarriage versions can deploy 30 degrees of flap and I was wondering if someone with that amount could measure the length of their slots as a guide whilst I remove the fuse material. I don't have the cross tube connected to the flap motor as yet, and am doing it by sanding the slots incrementally as I lower the flaps, as I didn't trust myself with the jig I made up. (I'm getting tired of fixing my mistakes). Thanks in advance. Regards Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:40 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length From: "rparigoris" Hi Tony I just did this job on my Mono and will explain the way I did it, which seems to be a good way to do it, but first: I have read that if you drop the flaps more than the book value of 27 degrees (target is 26-27, do not exceed 27), that yes you will produce a little more lift (and drag), but you can become airborne with ailerons that are less than effective. I think the factory mentioned this in older Tech Talk. Check with others. I am only speaking from what I read, not someone who has flown with more. For me no more than 27 degrees. Now for flap cross tube slot, I took a 1/2"steel rod, about 6" long and bored a hole in it the precise diameter of the flap drive pin. I then made a slot 3/4" in diameter to allow 27 degrees of flap travel with the 1/2" rod on the flap drive pin sticking inside the fuse. Then I turned a piece of aluminium that's the diameter of the flap cross tube, about 1.25" long (plus two thicknesses of 80 grit sandpaper), with one side cut at a 30 degree angle and then bored a 1/2" hole in the center where this is now a nice slip fit onto my 1/2" rod. Now with a helper, I threw the flap from retracted to 27 degrees with the 1/2" rod on the flap drive pin and with the 30 degree angle of the aluminium rod set on the 1/2" rod, just used the point of the tip of the 30 degree angle pushed against the fuse and traced with a pencil the needed slot. Mind you this is not a perfect slot because the flap drive pin is not perpendicular with the fuse, but close enough to allow full throw without going "too much". It ends up that a closet wood pole is the same diameter as the flap cross tube, so I just stuck some 80 grit and had a terrific sanding bar. Once I have everything set up exactly as I want and can cycle the gear, or in your case actuate the motor, I will just take a carpenters pencil, cut down to about an inch long and sharpened to give desired clearance, and mark the fuse by resting the pencil on the flap cross tube, using the flap cross tube as a guide. By using the flap cross tube as a guide, this will make the perfect mark to follow. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405533#405533 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:12 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Europa-List: Fixing misaligned spar bush I just noticed that one of the port wing's spar bush seems slightly misaligned. This is the bush near the inboard tip. It is recessed a bit to much on one side, and protrudes a bit too far on the other side of the spar. It also looks like it might be a tilted. As a result, I am unable to slide the spar socket over it. I expect this will be a problem when rigging (which I haven't done yet). Is there a fix for this? I was hoping that I can use some heat to soften the area and reposition that bush. Does that sound like a safe thing to do? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:28 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Flap Deployment Limit for an Electric Flap Aircraft Gidday again, Does anyone know of someone with greater than the 27/30 degrees of flap deployable, and could I get their contact details? I'm interested in knowing what the handling differences are, and appreciate the aircraft has not been flight tested with greater than 30 degrees. I have electric flaps, so it appears to me as I do that setup that a greater range is available, albeit it does increase the size of the slots in the fuselage which might need to be reinforced should this occur. Regards Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:22 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fixing misaligned spar bush From: "rparigoris" Hi Andrew First thing is you want to make sure that you can mate both wings together and pin them together with the spar pins. Distance and alignment are critical here. Then you want to make the bushings on the cockpit module to match the spar pins. Bay, you really want to make sure the spar bushings in the wing are stuck and will not change. If you heated a pin the size of the spar bushings I'm pretty sure you could soften and perhaps realign. That said I would speak with Bud or Europa. If I had to do it without guidance, I may remove the suspect bushing, really scuff sand things good and Redux/flox in place. Another thing I would look at is I have a set of glider wings. With the glider wings you are supposed to match the wings to your bushings in the cockpit module, so the wings are not drilled for the spar holes. You drill and install the spar bushings. The bushings I think are kinurled and look like they would take very well to Redux/Floxing in place. I don't know if the dimensions are the same as the short wing bushings and if they take better to bonding in p[lace, but worth investigating. Especially on my port wing, I have taken a rubber mallet and beat my port spar pip pin into position, especially after rigging "too" many times in a day. Normally I use a deep socket that fits my port pip pin arm perfectly with a 3" extension and use that to lever in place. I usually use carnuba wax to wax the pins. Last time rigging I used a rubber mallet softly as my arm was pretty tired. If the bushing was marginal held in place and let go, that for sure would be a pain. If you don't get an answer, I can take a picture with dimensions of the glider wing spar bushing if you like. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405542#405542 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:13 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Flap Deployment Limit for an Electric Flap Aircraft From: "rparigoris" Hi Tony I just took a look at the Tri final checklist and they state 27 degrees maximum (same as monowheel). If no one replies, if you read up on the old Europa Tech Talk, there is a blurb that they flew with more than 27 degrees and aileron control was less than stellar. Mind you that is probably on a Classic, and I think the wingspan on a Classic as well as the aileron length is smaller as compared to an XS (I have an XS Monowwheel). I think I read on the group a while back, I think perhaps it was in Africa (?) a guy needed better short field performance and increased flap travel and was somewhat happy with results? For me, I am going to adjust things so I have enough extra travel so I get my outriggers down and locked easily, no more than 27 degrees. A little less is OK by me (like 26). Think about it, take off from grass, bumpy, gusty, get premature launched from dip/gust, of course left cross wind, now right wing drops. Boy, bad situation, leave ailerons semi neutral and step on left rudder and hard. If you throw in a lot of left aileron, you will be increasing the angle of attack on the right wing and may stall it. Above scenario will be worst with 30 degrees than 26 degrees of flaps. Fixed pitch 912, plenty heavy, flying off grass with a high density altitude is going to be far worst than a light 914 off of pavement. I know that my 914 is going to have the Turbo quit, when I'm heavy, flying off of grass, tire pressure a bit low, when it's gusty and my Airmaster controller is going to command a full course at the precise time when the Long Island Sea Breeze gives me a stiff tailwind when I get prematurely launched during take off. Forward slips do a pretty good job increasing drag, just don't raise nose too high. It's true you want to keep the Rotax at 1,800 RPM to make the gearbox happy if you can, but in flight you are going to increase landing distance by a lot. Best tweak engine so it's precisely balanced and happy with a low idle like 1,450 or even a tad bit lower, and only use that low setting during landing, then when on the ground increase to minimum 1,800. Above said, I read of someone putting foam to decrease gap during cruise between the flap and wing. Off the cuff I would think that the foam would make a big disruption to the airflow over the lead edge of the flaps when in the down position, he said he didn't notice much difference. Go figure. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405543#405543 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:27 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea? From: "rparigoris" Hi Group In the very near future I need to bond FL18P and FL18S to the bottom of my fuse. These are the the two hinge brackets that get bolted to the fuse after you bond in place with 4 fasteners. When bonding these in place, you need to try and get them parallel to each other, parallel to the center-line of the fuse while making sure that the pivot holes are aligned with both of your inboard flap hinges (W19s). I'm thinking I will bond my two FL18P and FL18S to a piece of wood (like Fred Klein did) to keep them parallel to each other and in the same plain. The thing is after you goop things up with Redux/flox and ready to bond into position, lefty/righty needs to be in proper position in relation to the flap cross tube and the fore/aft and vertical needs to be in alignment with both the starboard and port inboard center-line of the inboard W19 flap hinges. I'm thinking pretty hard I want to bond both of my FL16s to my fuse with Bondo. The FL16s are the hinge arms that get mounted to the flap cross tube with two fasteners. You see if these FL16s are temporarily bonded in position, once my FL18P + S are temporarily bonded to a piece of wood, then I goop them up with Redux/flox, set into position and I can insert actual pivot hardware between FL18P+ S and FL16s to make sure pivot hole alignment is perfect with inboard W19 flap hinges. Question: Is a bad idea? Or is there an easier way? I just turned two aluminium bushings that center sewing thread in the .1875 ' diameter holes of W19s. Using a mini center drill and a finger pressure only drill chuck, drilling the .0145" holes was a piece of cake. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405545#405545 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:44 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea? Ron...see indented comments...Fred On Jul 28, 2013, at 8:51 PM, rparigoris wrote: > I'm thinking pretty hard I want to bond both of my FL16s to my fuse with Bondo. The FL16s are the hinge arms that get mounted to the flap cross tube with two fasteners. After looking at the build manual and my own photos taken during construction, it's my opinion that bonding the FL16s to the fuselage w/ bondo is not a good idea...I believe the key for this step is to ensure that the bolt holes in the FL18s are perfectly aligned w/ those in the W19s...if you want to trial fit the FL16s, do so as long as you can ensure the FL18s are shimmed in perfect alignment and don't move...once the FL18s are reduxed in place and bolted thru the fuse and you've dispensed w/ the alignment string, bolting the FL16s to the FL18s is straightforward. > > You see if these FL16s are temporarily bonded in position, once my FL18P + S are temporarily bonded to a piece of wood, then I goop them up with Redux/flox, set into position and I can insert actual pivot hardware between FL18P+ S and FL16s to make sure pivot hole alignment is perfect with inboard W19 flap hinges. May be I'm missing something, but this sounds backwards...the FL18s should determine the location of the hinge point w/ the FL16s...not the other way around. > > Question: > Is a bad idea? I think so > Or is there an easier way? Follow the manual and align the FL18s as shown in my pixs...but when I say "follow the manual", I certainly do NOT recommend following the SEQUENCE of operations shown in the manual; namely, to do this whole flap installation AFTER the top is bonded on...I understand that you HAVE already bonded on your top and...for the life of me...I simply cannot imagine having to deal with what you're facing...You have my most sincere condolences...though I presume that you have yet to install the baggage bay rear bulkhead...I give a hearty salute to anyone who has managed to install the flap mechanism AFTER the top has been bonded on the bottom fuselage. I did my damnedest to do absolutely EVERYTHING I could possibly do in the tailcone BEFORE bonding on the top and bonding in the ...of course I used many many clecoes to ensure that trial fitting of the top was skookum (in perfect alignment). > I just turned two aluminium bushings that center sewing thread in the .1875 ' diameter holes of W19s. Using a mini center drill and a finer pressure only drill chuck, drilling the .0145" holes was a piece of cake. You be the Zen master Ron...with what you're facing, being a yoga master wouldn't hurt either, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.