---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/30/13: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:11 AM - Re: Re: Old Classic needs upgrade to 912S 100hp (Pete Lawless) 2. 01:49 AM - Re: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 3. 02:24 AM - Re: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length (Frans Veldman) 4. 02:29 AM - Re: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 05:19 AM - Re: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length (Ivan Shaw) 6. 05:24 AM - oil change with oil thermostat (Karl Heindl) 7. 06:02 AM - Re: oil change with oil thermostat (richard) 8. 06:15 AM - Re: Outrigger Wheel Fork (richard) 9. 06:15 AM - Re: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 10. 07:06 AM - Re: oil change with oil thermostat (Karl Heindl) 11. 09:28 AM - A promotional e-mail ....don't read it if it offends you !......... Torque Tube Clamp Mod. (Bob Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:27 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Old Classic needs upgrade to 912S 100hp Hi Jonathan It would be very interesting to get a good comparison of performance for 80 v 100 hp in the same airframe. If you could assemble some before and after figures for take off roll, initial climb and a 5 minute timed climb that would be good. Also be interesting to see how fuel economy is affected. Obviously you would be trying to get weight, wind and temperature similar. I was considering a similar swap last year, but could not justify the expense for the 2 or 3 days a year when our strip seems shorter than usual. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonathanmilbank Sent: 29 July 2013 23:00 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Old Classic needs upgrade to 912S 100hp Thanks Dave and I'll take your good advice. When I do the preflight oil tank gurgling on my 80hp engine and then do it on a friend's 100hp 912S, the difference in compression is very noticeable. Hence my concern about whether the older starter motors can cope. Anyway I've now purchased my 2nd hand replacement engine from Kevin Dilks, sight unseen. Why do I have the confidence to do this? Well, his reputation goes before him for restoring Rotax engines to near-mint condition and another friend has found him to give excellent advice on problems, free of charge and his suggestions work. Also he was described to me as "a good chap" by no less than Neville Eyre. Recommendations don't come higher than that! Furthermore he's selling me a 230 hour engine which has been opened, checked carefully and every conceivable part that needed replacing was done with new components. I'm assured that when he says he's done that, you can bet your bottom dollar that he has. Finally my experience with Rotax 4-strokes tells me that provided they're serviced and operated properly, you can place great faith in them. I have no qualms and will be collecting the 100 horses on Wednesday. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405615#405615 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:26 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea? exactly what I did Kingsley=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________ ________=0A From: Kingsley Hurst =0ATo: europa-li st@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:10=0ASubject: Re: Europa -List: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List mes sage posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" =0A=0ARon,=0A=0A This suggestion may help you with your perceived problem.=0A=0ADrill a 3/32 " or 7/64" hole right through an AN3 bolt and use this bolt to temporarily assemble a FL16 / FL18 combination.- The string line (fishing line in my case) can now be run through the hollow bolt and the FL16 can be clamped to the lugs on the cross tube for alignment of the hinge point.- It made my ============= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:07 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length On 07/29/2013 11:25 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > don't use 30 degree flap, Europa tested it and found you are starting to > lose aileron control at the low speeds achieved in ground effect. I have some trouble believing this (and even when it is true it is questionable whether this is still a valid reason for the XS with the increased aileron span and with more powerfull engines). With higher flap settings you are getting more drag than additional lift. With 10% more flap (30 degree instead of 27) you will get maybe just 5% more lift. If the ailerons are inadequate for this tiny bit of extra lift I think they would have difficulties handling 27 degrees as well. Furthermore, in the XS the ailerons are substantially increased in lenght, significantly more than 5%, and should have much more control power at low speeds! Even if control problems were the limiting factor, than it is questionable whether the same limit would still be needed for the XS. I thought that the limitation in flap was because of the 80hp engine used for the certification, which might have lacked sufficient power to exercise a go around with full flaps under full load (which is, if I remember correctly, a certification requirement. For the same reason the older Cessna's have 40 degree flaps, where the newer ones have 30 degree which was instantly rewarded with a 30Kg higher MTOW without any structural changes). Furthermore, in the tri gear the fact that you have the option to use 30 degree flaps doesn't mean that you will have to use this all the time. There are situations where more flap would be welcome, and there might be situations where using less flap would be better. I can't see the benefit of the 26 degree limit. Of course for the mono you have no other option than to land with full flaps, so maybe in this case the limitation is justified. I know folks having drilled a new hole in the lugs on the flap control tube, so that the actuator can drive the flap further (and faster). No control difficulties are observed even in quite a few nasty situations with 30 knots wind and lots of turbulence. Instead the short field capabilities are somewhat improved. Regards, Frans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:42 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length Frans=0AI was talking about monowheel in ground effect.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Frans Veldman =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 10:23=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length=0A .nl>=0A=0AOn 07/29/2013 11:25 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A=0A> don't use 30 degree flap, Europa tested it and found you are starting to=0A> lose ail eron control at the low speeds achieved in ground effect.=0A=0AI have some trouble believing this (and even when it is true it is=0Aquestionable wheth er this is still a valid reason for the XS with the=0Aincreased aileron spa n and with more powerfull engines).=0A=0AWith higher flap settings you are getting more drag than additional=0Alift. With 10% more flap (30 degree ins tead of 27) you will get maybe=0Ajust 5% more lift. If the ailerons are ina dequate for this tiny bit of=0Aextra lift I think they would have difficult ies handling 27 degrees as=0Awell. Furthermore, in the XS the ailerons are substantially increased in=0Alenght, significantly more than 5%, and should have much more control=0Apower at low speeds! Even if control problems wer e the limiting factor,=0Athan it is questionable whether the same limit wou ld still be needed for=0Athe XS.=0A=0AI thought that the limitation in flap was because of the 80hp engine=0Aused for the certification, which might h ave lacked sufficient power to=0Aexercise a go around with full flaps under full load (which is, if I=0Aremember correctly, a certification requiremen t. For the same reason the=0Aolder Cessna's have 40 degree flaps, where the newer ones have 30 degree=0Awhich was instantly rewarded with a 30Kg highe r MTOW without any=0Astructural changes).=0A=0AFurthermore, in the tri gear the fact that you have the option to use 30=0Adegree flaps doesn't mean th at you will have to use this all the time.=0AThere are situations where mor e flap would be welcome, and there might=0Abe situations where using less f lap would be better. I can't see the=0Abenefit of the 26 degree limit. Of c ourse for the mono you have no other=0Aoption than to land with full flaps, so maybe in this case the=0Alimitation is justified.=0A=0AI know folks hav ing drilled a new hole in the lugs on the flap control=0Atube, so that the actuator can drive the flap further (and faster). No=0Acontrol difficulties are observed even in quite a few nasty situations=0Awith 30 knots wind and lots of turbulence. Instead the short field=0Acapabilities are somewhat im =========================0A = ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:38 AM PST US From: "Ivan Shaw" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length I tested the flaps down to 40 degrees, ailerons worked just fine. Ivan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 30 July 2013 10:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length --> On 07/29/2013 11:25 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > don't use 30 degree flap, Europa tested it and found you are starting > to lose aileron control at the low speeds achieved in ground effect. I have some trouble believing this (and even when it is true it is questionable whether this is still a valid reason for the XS with the increased aileron span and with more powerfull engines). With higher flap settings you are getting more drag than additional lift. With 10% more flap (30 degree instead of 27) you will get maybe just 5% more lift. If the ailerons are inadequate for this tiny bit of extra lift I think they would have difficulties handling 27 degrees as well. Furthermore, in the XS the ailerons are substantially increased in lenght, significantly more than 5%, and should have much more control power at low speeds! Even if control problems were the limiting factor, than it is questionable whether the same limit would still be needed for the XS. I thought that the limitation in flap was because of the 80hp engine used for the certification, which might have lacked sufficient power to exercise a go around with full flaps under full load (which is, if I remember correctly, a certification requirement. For the same reason the older Cessna's have 40 degree flaps, where the newer ones have 30 degree which was instantly rewarded with a 30Kg higher MTOW without any structural changes). Furthermore, in the tri gear the fact that you have the option to use 30 degree flaps doesn't mean that you will have to use this all the time. There are situations where more flap would be welcome, and there might be situations where using less flap would be better. I can't see the benefit of the 26 degree limit. Of course for the mono you have no other option than to land with full flaps, so maybe in this case the limitation is justified. I know folks having drilled a new hole in the lugs on the flap control tube, so that the actuator can drive the flap further (and faster). No control difficulties are observed even in quite a few nasty situations with 30 knots wind and lots of turbulence. Instead the short field capabilities are somewhat improved. Regards, Frans ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:16 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: Europa-List: oil change with oil thermostat After installation of the oil thermostat and new cooler I am about to put i n the oil. It just occurred to me that the thermostat will block the cold o il from circulating. Should I pre-heat the oil=2C or what is the recommende d technique ?Any good ideas much appreciated. Karl ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:06 AM PST US From: "richard" Subject: Re: Europa-List: oil change with oil thermostat Hi Karl. The oil thermostat will always have a bypass function so there is no possibility of starving the engine of oil when cold. I have one fitted and it works very well. Do remember to re-prime the oil system as per the Rotax manual i.e. remove one set of plugs and turn the engine over on the starter motor until you get oil pressure . Regards Richard From: Karl Heindl Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:23 PM Subject: Europa-List: oil change with oil thermostat After installation of the oil thermostat and new cooler I am about to put in the oil. It just occurred to me that the thermostat will block the cold oil from circulating. Should I pre-heat the oil, or what is the recommended technique ? Any good ideas much appreciated. Karl ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:13 AM PST US From: "richard" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger Wheel Fork Hi That sounded like an exciting landing, which is why I have a Tri-gear. I have outrigger bits available give me a ring on 01327 260045 or email rcollings@talktalk.net From: Dave Moore Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: Outrigger Wheel Fork Hello Folks, Does anyone (in the UK) have a spare outrigger wheel fork that they would be willing to part with, for a modest consideration..? I suspect that Trigear conversions should mean that there are a good few spare ones scattered around the Europa community. I guess it=99s only fair to say why I=99m seeking a replacement =93 not that you couldn=99t guess..! I managed to grind the wheel fork sleeve down to a knife edge by a reasonably dramatic swerve, landing on a wide tarmac runway. Ground loop..? No, no, no. Well, Yes.! Fortunately, I did not hit anything or break anything else =93 bar grind the nylon leg as well, I=99ve procured a replacement via the Factory. Yes, I=99ve undergone tailwheel conversion training, LAA coaching on the Mono and had my hand held a lot by some experienced monowheel Europa-ists. But, I am still a Mono novice and I was exceedingly rusty, and I should have got myself current again on a grass strip, and I should have controlled my speed better, and I should have flared more and held off longer, and landed with no yaw, and been more aware of the (light) cross wind, and gone around when I bounced. And, I am going to persevere with the Mono configuration. (For the moment, anyway..!!) Yours soberly, Dave Dave Moore Mono G-FITY Email: mooredca@tiscali.co.uk Home Tel: 01224 572041 Mobile: +44 (0)777 555 3772 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:44 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length Not what you told me re the monowheel!=0AG=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________=0A From: Ivan Shaw =0ATo: europa-li st@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 13:18=0ASubject: RE: Europ a-List: Tri-gear Flap Cross Tube Slot Length=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List messa ge posted by: "Ivan Shaw" =0A=0AI tested the flaps down to 40 degrees, ailerons worked just fine.=0AIvan=0A=0A-----Original M essage-----=0AFrom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner- europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman=0ASent: 30 Jul y 2013 10:23=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Tr Frans Veldman =0A--> =0A=0AOn 07/29/2013 11:25 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A=0A> don't use 30 degree flap, Europa tested it a nd found you are starting =0A> to lose aileron control at the low speeds ac hieved in ground effect.=0A=0AI have some trouble believing this (and even when it is true it is=0Aquestionable whether this is still a valid reason f or the XS with the=0Aincreased aileron span and with more powerfull engines ).=0A=0AWith higher flap settings you are getting more drag than additional lift.=0AWith 10% more flap (30 degree instead of 27) you will get maybe ju st 5% more=0Alift. If the ailerons are inadequate for this tiny bit of extr a lift I think=0Athey would have difficulties handling 27 degrees as well. Furthermore, in=0Athe XS the ailerons are substantially increased in lenght , significantly=0Amore than 5%, and should have much more control power at low speeds! Even if=0Acontrol problems were the limiting factor, than it is questionable whether=0Athe same limit would still be needed for the XS.=0A =0AI thought that the limitation in flap was because of the 80hp engine use d=0Afor the certification, which might have lacked sufficient power to exer cise=0Aa go around with full flaps under full load (which is, if I remember =0Acorrectly, a certification requirement. For the same reason the older=0A Cessna's have 40 degree flaps, where the newer ones have 30 degree which wa s=0Ainstantly rewarded with a 30Kg higher MTOW without any structural chang es).=0A=0AFurthermore, in the tri gear the fact that you have the option to use 30=0Adegree flaps doesn't mean that you will have to use this all the time.=0AThere are situations where more flap would be welcome, and there mi ght be=0Asituations where using less flap would be better. I can't see the benefit of=0Athe 26 degree limit. Of course for the mono you have no other option than to=0Aland with full flaps, so maybe in this case the limitation is justified.=0A=0AI know folks having drilled a new hole in the lugs on t he flap control tube,=0Aso that the actuator can drive the flap further (an d faster). No control=0Adifficulties are observed even in quite a few nasty situations with 30 knots=0Awind and lots of turbulence. Instead the short field capabilities are=0Asomewhat improved.=0A=0ARegards,=0AFrans=0A=0A=0A =========================0A =================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:40 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: oil change with oil thermostat thank you very much Richard=2C that's a relief. i will watch the rotax vide o again=2C and also apply pressure into the oil container via the vent.Karl From: rcollings@talktalk.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: oil change with oil thermostat =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Hi Karl. The oil thermostat will always have a bypass function so there is =0A no possibility of starving the engine of oil when cold. I have one fitted a nd it =0A works very well. =0A Do remember to re-prime the oil system as per the Rotax manual i.e. remove =0A one set of plugs and turn the engine over on the starter motor until you ge t oil =0A pressure .=0A Regards Richard =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A From: Karl Heindl =0A Sent: Tuesday=2C July 30=2C 2013 1:23 PM=0A Subject: Europa-List: oil change with oil =0A thermostat=0A =0A =0A After installation of the oil thermostat and new cooler I am about =0A to put in the oil. It just occurred to me that the thermostat will block th e =0A cold oil from circulating. Should I pre-heat the oil=2C or what is the reco mmended =0A technique ? =0A Any good ideas much appreciated. =0A =0A Karl=0A =0A href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:29 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: A promotional e-mail ....don't read it if it offends you !......... Torque Tube Clamp Mod. Europa original torque tube and clamps ( pre the latest Europa re-design of Torque Tube arrangement ) I have been approached for some more torque tube clamps. Since the last batch has now been moved on I need to make an economical batch up please make contact to commit to an order. Best regards Bob Harrison. ptag.dev@talktalk.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.