---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/12/13: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:31 AM - Re: Gusset plates (DAVID JOYCE) 2. 01:39 AM - Re: Gusset plates (James Kelly) 3. 02:05 AM - stopping engine in flight (David Joyce) 4. 02:34 AM - Re: Gusset plates (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 03:02 AM - Re: Gusset plates (jonathanmilbank) 6. 03:37 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (rparigoris) 7. 06:13 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (Roland) 8. 06:37 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk) 9. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: stopping engine in flight (David Joyce) 10. 07:54 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (Fred Klein) 11. 07:56 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (Alan Carter) 12. 08:00 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (David Joyce) 13. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: stopping engine in flight (Peter Zutrauen) 14. 08:23 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (Fred Klein) 15. 08:58 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (Alan Carter) 16. 10:15 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (Pete Lawless) 17. 11:48 AM - Re: stopping engine in flight (David Joyce) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:16 AM PST US From: DAVID JOYCE Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates Bud=0A-=0AThe replacement stainless exhausts-were closer to =A31200 don 't know what they are now, original steel systems were fabricated in Tibshe lf Derbyshire I believe.=0A-=0Argds=0ADJ=0A=0ASent to you from David Joyc e=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr om: Bud Yerly =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: M onday, 12 August 2013, 1:25=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AJimmy, =0ASome time ago, the factory went to-another exhaust manufacturer CKT =0AAero engineering and they did a good job of remanufact uring our exhaust with =0Athicker, better stainless steel, better muffler s upports-and less stress on =0Athe mandrel bends of the pipes.- CKT also makes systems for most of the =0ARotax powered kits in Europe.- Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to =0Aus before which cracked at the exha ust, pipes and everywhere for mostly harmonic =0Areasons .- The only prob lem with the CKT exhaust was the springs, which =0Awere standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainless steel =0Aspring to try to get better longevity.- CKT stands behind their products =0Aand has taken care of me. =0A=0ANote:- In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red si licone on =0Athe springs to reduce vibration harmonics.- I run a piece of safety wire =0Athrough the spring and pull it up loosely.- This keeps an y fatigued springs =0Afrom becoming FOD. =0A=0ASome History: =0AThe 912S ha rmonics cause the exhaust to move laterally a bit and that will =0Afatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs were =0Am ade tighter, the muffler supports cracked.- We all know how bad the =0Aal uminum heat shield was.- Also the 914 had some real problems but over =0A time, metal bends went to welded seams and we have been trouble free.- Th e =0Aoriginal 912 exhaust was kept as light as possible, but the vibration and =0Aharmonics caused fatigue cracks at very low time.- My first experi ence was =0Awith Ira Rampil's exhaust which cracked in about 4 places.- C hris at CKT =0Areplaced-the old-exhaust with his and we went through so me teething =0Apains with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of =0Athe engine.-Contact Europa for the new-exhaust sys tem and clear up =0Ayour problems, but expect it to cost about $1000 US or about -660 UK =0APounds.- =0A=0ABud =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -- --- =0A>From: James Kelly =0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sa turday, August 10, 2013 6:07 PM =0A>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gusset plat es =0A>=0A>Hi Bud, =0A>- - - - - - - -It appears that ther e's always problems with Europa exhaust pipes cracking near the manifold, any ideas why this is so prevalent ? =0A>=0A> =0A>Jimmy=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Bud Yerly wrote:=0A>=0A> =0A>>T ony, =0A>>If you have a gap but-the plate-is parallel or close to para llel to the tube you can put a small joggle in the steel.- However then your bolt hole to edge distance becomes critical on the wood glass gusset. - If there is still good edge distance you'll be OK.- =0A>>=0A>>Anothe r method is to put a filler strip to take up the gap of steel.- Just a s hort strip with a couple holes in it match drilled will do. =0A>>It should only add a bit of time and be more than secure. =0A>>=0A>>All one is looki ng for is to keep the tube stable. =0A>>=0A>>Best Regards, =0A>>Bud Yerly --- =0A>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>From: Tony Renshaw =0A> >>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2013 2:00 AM =0A>>>Subject: Europa-List: Gusset plates =0A>>>=0A>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw =0A>>>=0A>>>Gidd ay,=0A>>>I am =0A having trouble with the gusset plates. I used the 12 ply supplied and =0A shaped it accordingly, except I have about a 5 m m gap from ply to tie rod. =0A The cloth will take up approx half of t hat. So, I bonded on the ply and =0A then layed up the 4 plies of BID, which in essence thickens the ply by 8 =0A plies. So, now that its al l done I have a 2-3 mm gap +/- and the gusset =0A plates do not sit pa rallel. For the other side I lightly clamped the =0A plates together a s the BID cured, in situ, and they were covered in =0A Canauba Wax for a release agent. So, that side is OK, but the first side I =0A have a problem I am hoping I can use Redux and Flox to pack out both the =0A gap between rod and ply, and also to create a flat bed for the gusset =0A plates. I am wondering this would be considered an acceptable way to f ix =0A things? I know Redux and Flox is a pretty tough mix and the loa ds in this =0A region I do not consider will challenge what I am doing , as something =0A would have already broken, like a wing!=0A>>>Regard s=0A>>>Tony =0A p;-------- Features Chat, http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>>>_p;-------- =0A generous =0A bsp;----------------- -- =0A title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http: //www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c===== =============0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>arget="_ blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums.matroni cs.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>=0A>href="http ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http:/ /forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.mat ======= ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates From: James Kelly Thanks Bud for the detailed explanation. Also David. Rgds Jimmy On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 8:30 AM, DAVID JOYCE wrot e: > Bud > > The replacement stainless exhausts were closer to =A31200 don't know what > they are now, original steel systems were fabricated in Tibshelf Derbyshi re > I believe. > > rgds > DJ > > *Sent to you from David Joyce > www.eastmidsspas.com > * > > *From:* Bud Yerly > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, 12 August 2013, 1:25 > > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates > > Jimmy, > Some time ago, the factory went to another exhaust manufacturer CKT Aero > engineering and they did a good job of remanufacturing our exhaust with > thicker, better stainless steel, better muffler supports and less stress on > the mandrel bends of the pipes. CKT also makes systems for most of the > Rotax powered kits in Europe. Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to > us before which cracked at the exhaust, pipes and everywhere for mostly > harmonic reasons . The only problem with the CKT exhaust was the springs , > which were standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainles s > steel spring to try to get better longevity. CKT stands behind their > products and has taken care of me. > > Note: In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red silicone on the > springs to reduce vibration harmonics. I run a piece of safety wire > through the spring and pull it up loosely. This keeps any fatigued sprin gs > from becoming FOD. > > Some History: > The 912S harmonics cause the exhaust to move laterally a bit and that wil l > fatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs > were made tighter, the muffler supports cracked. We all know how bad the > aluminum heat shield was. Also the 914 had some real problems but over > time, metal bends went to welded seams and we have been trouble free. Th e > original 912 exhaust was kept as light as possible, but the vibration and > harmonics caused fatigue cracks at very low time. My first experience wa s > with Ira Rampil's exhaust which cracked in about 4 places. Chris at CKT > replaced the old exhaust with his and we went through some teething pains > with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of t he > engine. Contact Europa for the new exhaust system and clear up your > problems, but expect it to cost about $1000 US or about 660 UK Pounds. > > Bud > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* James Kelly > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, August 10, 2013 6:07 PM > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates > > Hi Bud, > It appears that there's always problems with Europa exhaus t > pipes cracking near the manifold, any ideas why this is so prevalent ? > > Jimmy > > On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > > ** > Tony, > If you have a gap but the plate is parallel or close to parallel to the > tube you can put a small joggle in the steel. However then your bolt hol e > to edge distance becomes critical on the wood glass gusset. If there is > still good edge distance you'll be OK. > > Another method is to put a filler strip to take up the gap of steel. Jus t > a short strip with a couple holes in it match drilled will do. > It should only add a bit of time and be more than secure. > > All one is looking for is to keep the tube stable. > > Best Regards, > Bud Yerly > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Tony Renshaw > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, August 10, 2013 2:00 AM > *Subject:* Europa-List: Gusset plates > > > > Gidday, > I am having trouble with the gusset plates. I used the 12 ply supplied an d > shaped it accordingly, except I have about a 5 mm gap from ply to tie rod .. > The cloth will take up approx half of that. So, I bonded on the ply and > then layed up the 4 plies of BID, which in essence thickens the ply by 8 > plies. So, now that its all done I have a 2-3 mm gap +/- and the gusset > plates do not sit parallel. For the other side I lightly clamped the plat es > together as the BID cured, in situ, and they were covered in Canauba Wax > for a release agent. So, that side is OK, but the first side I have a > problem I am hoping I can use Redux and Flox to pack out both the gap > between rod and ply, and also to create a flat bed for the gusset plates. I > am wondering this would be considered an acceptable way to fix things? I > know Redux and Flox is a pretty tough mix and the loads in this region I do > not consider will challenge what I am doing, as something would have > already broken, like a wing! > Regards > Tony p; Features Chat, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > > _p; generous bsp; title > http://www.matronics.com/contribution href=" > http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> > http://www.matronics.com/c=============== = > > > * > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * > > * > > ator?Europa-List" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.matronics .c========================f orums.matronics.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.mat = --> > > =========== com/Navigator?Europa-List =========== =========== =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:25 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight Some time ago there was some discussion about stopping & restarting the engine in flight. Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W, and I guess it is because this prop offers appreciably more blade area than say Warp drive blades. For what it is worth the engine fired up again immediately on switching the ignition back on without needing the starter. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:29 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates The company was in Somercotes, may have moved. Europa specified stainless b ut after a few cracked systems, they changed to mild steel without telling Europa. Burnt through is 50 hours. Then they stopped altogether; probably t heir insurers had a fit.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0A From: James Kelly =0ATo: europa-list@mat ronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 9:38=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List : Gusset plates=0A =0A=0A=0AThanks Bud for the detailed explanation. -Als o David.=0ARgds=0AJimmy=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 8:30 AM, DAVID JOYC E wrote:=0A=0ABud=0A>-=0A>The replacement stai nless exhausts-were closer to =A31200 don't know what they are now, origi nal steel systems were fabricated in Tibshelf Derbyshire I believe.=0A>- =0A>rgds=0A>DJ=0A>-=0A>Sent to you from David Joyce=0A>www.eastmidsspas.c om=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>From: Bud Yerly =0A>To: europa-list@mat ronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 1:25=0A>=0A>Subject: Re: Europ a-List: Gusset plates=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Jimmy,=0A>Some time ago, the factory went to-another exhaust manufacturer CKT =0AAero engineering and they did a good job of remanufacturing our exhaust with =0Athicker, better stainles s steel, better muffler supports-and less stress on =0Athe mandrel bends of the pipes.- CKT also makes systems for most of the =0ARotax powered ki ts in Europe.- Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to =0Aus before which cracked at the exhaust, pipes and everywhere for mostly harmonic =0Ar easons .- The only problem with the CKT exhaust was the springs, which =0Awere standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainless ste el =0Aspring to try to get better longevity.- CKT stands behind their pro ducts =0Aand has taken care of me.=0A>-=0A>Note:- In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red silicone on =0Athe springs to reduce vibration harmonics.- I run a piece of safety wire =0Athrough the spring and pull it up loosely.- This keeps any fatigued springs =0Afrom becoming FOD.=0A> -=0A>Some History:=0A>The 912S harmonics cause the exhaust to move latera lly a bit and that will =0Afatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs were =0Amade tighter, the muffler supports cracke d.- We all know how bad the =0Aaluminum heat shield was.- Also the 914 had some real problems but over =0Atime, metal bends went to welded seams a nd we have been trouble free.- The =0Aoriginal 912 exhaust was kept as li ght as possible, but the vibration and =0Aharmonics caused fatigue cracks a t very low time.- My first experience was =0Awith Ira Rampil's exhaust wh ich cracked in about 4 places.- Chris at CKT =0Areplaced-the old-exha ust with his and we went through some teething =0Apains with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of =0Athe engine.-Conta ct Europa for the new-exhaust system and clear up =0Ayour problems, but e xpect it to cost about $1000 US or about -660 UK =0APounds.- =0A>-=0A >Bud=0A>-=0A>-=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From: James Kelly =0A>>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2013 6:0 7 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates=0A>>=0A>>Hi Bud, =0A>> - - - - - - - -It appears that there's always problems wit h Europa exhaust pipes cracking near the manifold, any ideas why this is s o prevalent ?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Jimmy=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 9:3 4 PM, Bud Yerly wrote:=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>>Tony,=0A>>>If you have a gap but-the plate-is parallel or close to parallel to the tube you can put a small joggle in the steel.- However then your bolt hole t o edge distance becomes critical on the wood glass gusset.- If there is still good edge distance you'll be OK.- =0A>>>-=0A>>>Another method is to put a filler strip to take up the gap of steel.- Just a short strip w ith a couple holes in it match drilled will do.=0A>>>It should only add a bit of time and be more than secure.=0A>>>-=0A>>>All one is looking for i s to keep the tube stable.=0A>>>-=0A>>>Best Regards,=0A>>>Bud Yerly-- -=0A>>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>>From: Tony Renshaw =0A>>>>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>>>>Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2013 2:00 AM =0A>>>>Subject: Europa-List: Gusset plates=0A>>>>=0A>>>>--> Europa-List me ssage posted by: Tony Renshaw =0A>>>>=0A>>>>Gidda y,=0A>>>>I am =0A having trouble with the gusset plates. I used the 12 ply supplied and =0A shaped it accordingly, except I have about a 5 m m gap from ply to tie rod. =0A The cloth will take up approx half of t hat. So, I bonded on the ply and =0A then layed up the 4 plies of BID, which in essence thickens the ply by 8 =0A plies. So, now that its al l done I have a 2-3 mm gap +/- and the gusset =0A plates do not sit pa rallel. For the other side I lightly clamped the =0A plates together a s the BID cured, in situ, and they were covered in =0A Canauba Wax for a release agent. So, that side is OK, but the first side I =0A have a problem I am hoping I can use Redux and Flox to pack out both the =0A gap between rod and ply, and also to create a flat bed for the gusset =0A plates. I am wondering this would be considered an acceptable way to f ix =0A things? I know Redux and Flox is a pretty tough mix and the loa ds in this =0A region I do not consider will challenge what I am doing , as something =0A would have already broken, like a wing!=0A>>>>Regar ds=0A>>>>Tony p;-------- Features Chat, http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>>>>=0A>>>>_p;-------- =0A generous =0A bsp;---------------- --- =0A title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="ht tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== ==============0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>ar get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.m atronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>>=0A>>href ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http:/ /www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>ator?Europa -List" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.matronics.c=== ===================== forums.matr onics.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.mat= --> =0A>t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp: //forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A ============= ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:21 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Gusset plates From: "jonathanmilbank" After 16 years with the 912UL engine in a Classic monowheel, I changed the undercarriage to tricycle. But the rolling resistance is much greater, particularly on grass, so I've bought a 912S to help me get into the air more easily. My intention is to fit the replacement engine into the existing arrangements and to use the same old-style stainless steel exhaust system, which dangles at an angle rearwards beneath the engine. This exhaust has served me well enough over 16 years, apart from a couple of fractures of the flange bolted to the left rear cylinder. My question to anyone with experience similar to mine, or anyone who's heard from others, is "Am I likely to have a severe increase in exhaust cracking problems?" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406492#406492 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:21 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight From: "rparigoris" Hi David "I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts." I owned a 1948 Cessna 170 rag-wing for 19 years. I would regularity stop the prop and go gliding. Some of the time when the sea breeze was working well on Long Island you could maintain with the prop windmilling, but if you managed to stop the prop you could climb. I used a strap on your wrist Ball variometer. Once you managed to get things stopped, L/D went up and sink rate went down. Anyway to stop the fixed pitch prop on my Continental C-145 (very close to O-300) 6 cylinder, I would need to use full flaps and do a semi aggressive stall. Not a whip stall, but not a slowly pull stick in your lap either. This was especially necessary if not solo with light fuel. Remember the ragwing 170 had hinged flaps the same size as the 120, and they didn't work very well on the 120. Anyway, did you try full flap stall solo with light fuel to get things stopped? Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406493#406493 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:11 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight From: "Roland" Sorry David, if this might be an "odd" question, but did you also try to feather the Prop? I don't know if this is possible with the Woodcomp. Regards Roland XS Trigear 914 (Airmaster Prop) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406499#406499 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:51 AM PST US From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight David, Don't forget that at 9.0:1, the 914 has a lot less compression than the 912s (10.5:1). Combine that with your large blade area and it's not surprising that it windmills easily. Nigel On 12/08/2013 10:04, David Joyce wrote: > > > > Some time ago there was some discussion about stopping & restarting > the engine in flight. Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order > to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I > was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued > to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a > Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W, and I guess it is because this prop > offers appreciably more blade area than say Warp drive blades. For > what it is worth the engine fired up again immediately on switching > the ignition back on without needing the starter. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:51 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight Roland, I do not have a feathering prop so no. And as I was researching how to cope with an EFTO, doing a flaps down stall didn't really fit either. Regards, David On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 06:12:38 -0700 "Roland" wrote: > > > Sorry David, if this might be an "odd" question, but did >you also try to feather the Prop? I don't know if this is >possible with the Woodcomp. > > Regards > Roland > XS Trigear 914 (Airmaster Prop) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406499#406499 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:34 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote: > Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does NOT have a full-feathering position? F. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:33 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight From: "Alan Carter" Ow Boy , shouldn't say this. Use to stop the prop on the old Grumman AA,s Restart engine in dive, and do 1/2 hours free flying, with the taco stopped, it was many years ago. C150 loops well with the pro stopped, Confessions of a QFI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406516#406516 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:09 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight Fred, You can buy them with full feathering or indeed with reverse thrust, but I have just the standard one. Regards, David On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:54:02 -0700 Fred Klein wrote: > > On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote: > >> Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to >>research glide angles with engine idling and actually >>stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the >>ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed >>pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and >>a Woodcomp SR3000W > > David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does >NOT have a full-feathering position? > >F. > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:08 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight wow...you could get a draggy 150 to climb over the top without any thrust? Must have been quite a dive ....... & sight! On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Alan Carter wrote: > > > > Ow Boy , shouldn't say this. Use to stop the prop on the old Grumman AA,s > Restart engine in dive, and do 1/2 hours free flying, with the taco > stopped, it was many years ago. > C150 loops well with the pro stopped, Confessions of a QFI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406516#406516 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:40 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight Aha...so, if I'm understanding your concerns correctly, the sticky dilemma is the realization that in the event of an engine shutdown, your range to an emergency landing will be sharply limited w/ a forward speed of only 50 kts....?... What was your sink rate and estimated L/D in this configuration? F. On Aug 12, 2013, at 7:59 AM, David Joyce wrote: > Fred, You can buy them with full feathering or indeed with reverse thrust, but I have just the standard one. Regards, David > > On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:54:02 -0700 > Fred Klein wrote: >> On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote: >>> Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W >> David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does NOT have a full-feathering position? >> F. > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:12 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight From: "Alan Carter" No Standard entry speed difficult to keep the the prop form windmilling at high speed , prop stopped ,during pull up prop windmills drag goes up ,the speed decay,s away prop stops, Plane judders and shakes as it goes over the top, then the prop goes into windmills on the pull out, A really work horse is the Cessna 150, draggy slow, but a strong old bird. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406520#406520 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:40 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight Hi David Was the prop full fine? I had understood that the constant speed units would run the prop full fine in the event of engine stoppage. If it was be worth trying manually setting full course and see if it makes a difference. Regards Pete G-RMAC -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: 12 August 2013 10:05 Subject: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight Some time ago there was some discussion about stopping & restarting the engine in flight. Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W, and I guess it is because this prop offers appreciably more blade area than say Warp drive blades. For what it is worth the engine fired up again immediately on switching the ignition back on without needing the starter. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:20 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: stopping engine in flight Fred, All will be revealed in due course in the Europa Flyer, but I was slowing in the hope of stopping the engine rotating. It will glide nicely at 1:12 with the engine idling, at 70kts, but I suspect it would go slightly better with the prop stopped Regards, David On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:23:09 -0700 Fred Klein wrote: > Aha...so, if I'm understanding your concerns correctly, > the sticky dilemma is the realization that in the event >of an engine shutdown, your range to an emergency landing >will be sharply limited w/ a forward speed of only 50 >kts....?... What was your sink rate and estimated L/D >in this configuration? > >F. > > On Aug 12, 2013, at 7:59 AM, David Joyce wrote: > >> Fred, You can buy them with full feathering or indeed >>with reverse thrust, but I have just the standard one. >>Regards, David >> >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:54:02 -0700 >> Fred Klein wrote: >>> On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote: >>>> Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to >>>>research glide angles with engine idling and actually >>>>stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the >>>>ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed >>>>pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and >>>>a Woodcomp SR3000W >>> David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does >>>NOT have a full-feathering position? >>> F. >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.