---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/17/13: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:11 AM - Re: MG Spins (Ian Cook) 2. 05:50 AM - Re: MG Spins (Karl Heindl) 3. 01:00 PM - Wing lift and drag pins (spcialeffects) 4. 02:54 PM - Re: Wing lift and drag pins (Pete Lawless) 5. 03:04 PM - Re: Wing lift and drag pins (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk) 6. 06:09 PM - Re: MONOWHEEL RE-MOUNT (ROBERT LINDSAY) 7. 09:15 PM - Re: Wing lift and drag pins (spcialeffects) 8. 11:54 PM - Laddingford (David Joyce) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:50 AM PST US From: "Ian Cook" Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Spins Karl, It will not be cleared for deliberate spinning, as it will still be classed as non-aerobatic, but at least we have now covered the currently approved Mass 621 kg (1370 lb), C of G configurations (60.4 to 62.5), in and out of spin control positions, flaps open and closed, wheel up and down cases. The LAA and Europa are still to review all the data and videos so I will not pre-empt their report other than to say it was generally good news, but as with all Europa A/C, the spin is very near the vertical so care is needed not to go too far forward with the stick or you can get into negative 'g' situations which can be off putting! With care during recovery, speeds did not go above 105 knots indicated (127 kt limit). However, we still need to get the increase in mass approved (to at least 1450 lb), to be a viable machine, it is currently too limited with the extra wing weight to operate at 1370 lb standard XS limit. Several of the take-off and landing at 1370 lb were completed from a grass strip 400 m by 20 m with 1 degree up slope (290 ft above SL), from nil wind up the 12 cross wind limit without problems. Regards Ian From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 17 August 2013 00:04 Subject: Europa-List: MG Spins Hi Terry, This is the first note I have seen about spinning the motorglider. Could you give us details please about recovery and height loss per rotation ? I have been unable to stall mine in level or descending flight and I have been reluctant to force a spin without knowing that it would be okay. Cheers, Karl > From: iancook_1@btinternet.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 21:40:19 +0100 > > > Terry, > We have just finished the spinning trials in my mono motor glider > after two years of trying to satisfy the LAA (UK) requirements to get a > Permit to Fly, so was very interested in your comments, especially about > blocking of the cooling ducts to improve the LD ratio, do you have any > further details that you can make available? I had the company (Europa) fit > small wing tip wheels to my wings so I can take the outriggers off > completely if I want to go wave flying. Is your machine a mono or Tri-gear? > > Best Regards > > Ian Cook > G-CBHI > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver > (terrys) > Sent: 16 August 2013 21:19 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight > > --> > > Hi Gary, > > We have a Europa XS with a 912S and Airmaster prop and long wings. We were > interested in two important questions; when will it stop wind milling, and > when will it do an air restart (in case we run the battery dead flying > around with the alternator not charging). We found the stop wind milling > speed to be around 50 kts, and the air restart at around 110 kts. These > seemed near perfect speeds, by our reckoning. > BTW, we got a glide ratio of about 23:1 initially, but got up to almost 26:1 > by; > 1) adding a cowl flap to the bottom of the cowl (behind the radiators). > 2) adding fairings to the non-retractable outrigger legs. > > regards, > Terry > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Gary Leinberger > [Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu] > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:47 AM > To: 'europa-list@matronics.com' > Subject: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight > > I have a Tri-Gear 912S Europa. As part of the requirement for my Motor > Glider endorsement (US) I had to feather the prop, stop the engine and do > some gliding. I have a three bladed Airmaster Prop with the feather option. > With the short wings and the engine off, prop feathered, I show about 600 > fpm down with no thermal activity. (I was at about 6000 feet, above the tops > of the cumulus clouds in the area so I haven't tried this in a thermal yet.) > Plane is a bit heavy (full IFR) and I am a proper sized American - 265 lbs. > And I had an instructor on board. So a lighter plane (and pilot) may do > better. Should have the long wings done soon (I have given up on estimating > completion dates) and will provide some better info on soaring then. > The 912S is a high compression engine, unlike the 912 and 914. So the prop > will stop when the ignition is off even if not feathered. It is also hard to > start by diving alone although I have heard that a serious dive will finally > get the prop wind-milling high enough for a start - I think you need at > least 300 + rpm to get a charge out of the ignition system. For mine a > slight dive (100 knots) will start to move the blades a bit, and a mere > touch of the starter lights it off. > The feathering and un-feathering takes a bit of time - which I imagine will > seem even longer if you wait too long when running out of lift. > Gary Leinberger > Lancaster, Pa. > N388SG > > > > > > > > Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >======================= > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:24 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Spins Ian=2C Thank you for the useful information. I had done the 1450 pound test flight without a problem. Here we only require a climb test (minimum of 300fpm a t standard temp. and pressure)=2C but I was about 3 times above that.And as you say=2C takeoff is always very swift=2C and landings can take forever u nless I come in really slow and airbrakes on.How quick is the spin recovery =2C or will rotation stop when controls are released ? I am a little concer ned about the small rudder. Karl From: iancook_1@btinternet.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Spins Karl=2C It will not be cleared for deliberate spinning=2C as it will still be classed as non-aerobatic=2C but at least we have now covered the current ly approved Mass 621 kg (1370 lb)=2C C of G configurations (60.4 to 62.5) =2C in and out of spin control positions=2C flaps open and closed=2C wheel up and down cases. The LAA and Europa are still to review all the data and videos so I will not pre-empt their report other than to say it was general ly good news=2C but as with all Europa A/C=2C the spin is very near the ver tical so care is needed not to go too far forward with the stick or you can get into negative =91g=92 situations which can be off putting! With care during recovery=2C speeds did not go above 105 knots indicated (127 kt lim it). However=2C we still need to get the increase in mass approved (to at l east 1450 lb)=2C to be a viable machine=2C it is currently too limited with the extra wing weight to operate at 1370 lb standard XS limit. Several of the take-off and landing at 1370 lb were completed from a grass strip 400 m by 20 m with 1 degree up slope (290 ft above SL)=2C from nil wind up the 12 cross wind limit without problems. Regards Ian From: owner-europa-list-s erver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Beha lf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 17 August 2013 00:04 Subject: Europa-List: MG Spins Hi Terry=2C This is the first note I have se en about spinning the motorglider. Could you give us details please about r ecovery and height loss per rotation ? I have been unable to stall mine in level or descending flight and I have been reluctant to force a spin withou t knowing that it would be okay. Cheers=2C Karl > From: iancook_1@btinte rnet.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight > Date: Fri=2C 16 Aug 2013 21:40:19 +0100 > > > Terry=2C > We have just finished the spinning trials in my mono motor glider > after two years of trying to satisfy the LAA (UK) requirements to get a > Permit to Fly=2C so was very interested in your comments=2C especially ab out > blocking of the cooling ducts to improve the LD ratio=2C do you have any > further details that you can make available? I had the company (Europa) f it > small wing tip wheels to my wings so I can take the outriggers off > completely if I want to go wave flying. Is your machine a mono or Tri-gea r? > > Best Regards > > Ian Cook > G-CBHI > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver > (terrys) > Sent: 16 August 2013 21:19 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight > > --> > > Hi Gary=2C > > We have a Europa XS with a 912S and Airmaster prop and long wings. We wer e > interested in two important questions=3B when will it stop wind milling =2C and > when will it do an air restart (in case we run the battery dead flying > around with the alternator not charging). We found the stop wind milling > speed to be around 50 kts=2C and the air restart at around 110 kts. These > seemed near perfect speeds=2C by our reckoning. > BTW=2C we got a glide ratio of about 23:1 initially=2C but got up to almo st 26:1 > by=3B > 1) adding a cowl flap to the bottom of the cowl (behind the radiators). > 2) adding fairings to the non-retractable outrigger legs. > > regards=2C > Terry > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Gary Leinberger > [Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu] > Sent: Friday=2C August 16=2C 2013 11:47 AM > To: 'europa-list@matronics.com' > Subject: Europa-List: Re: stopping engine in flight > > I have a Tri-Gear 912S Europa. As part of the requirement for my Motor > Glider endorsement (US) I had to feather the prop=2C stop the engine and do > some gliding. I have a three bladed Airmaster Prop with the feather optio n. > With the short wings and the engine off=2C prop feathered=2C I show about 600 > fpm down with no thermal activity. (I was at about 6000 feet=2C above the tops > of the cumulus clouds in the area so I haven't tried this in a thermal ye t.) > Plane is a bit heavy (full IFR) and I am a proper sized American - 265 lb s. > And I had an instructor on board. So a lighter plane (and pilot) may do > better. Should have the long wings done soon (I have given up on estimati ng > completion dates) and will provide some better info on soaring then. > The 912S is a high compression engine=2C unlike the 912 and 914. So the p rop > will stop when the ignition is off even if not feathered. It is also hard to > start by diving alone although I have heard that a serious dive will fina lly > get the prop wind-milling high enough for a start - I think you need at > least 300 + rpm to get a charge out of the ignition system. For mine a > slight dive (100 knots) will start to move the blades a bit=2C and a mere > touch of the starter lights it off. > The feathering and un-feathering takes a bit of time - which I imagine wi ll > seem even longer if you wait too long when running out of lift. > Gary Leinberger > Lancaster=2C Pa. > N388SG > > > > > > > > Archive Search & Download=2C 7-Day Browse=2C Chat=2C FAQ=2C >======================= > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.c omhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:23 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Wing lift and drag pins From: "spcialeffects" Hi all, so im building a classic and am just finishing off my wings. In the combined manual chapter 26 it says that the holes for the wing pins are already drilled and tapped (you XS people dont know what your missing out on!! ) but i need to drill and tap mine myself, so does anyone have the original instructions? Many thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406925#406925 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:24 PM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing lift and drag pins Do you mean the 2 lift/drag pins in the wing root? If so I can scan and send the appropriate pages. However, prepare yourself for a shock! Check out mandatory mod 74 on the Europa website. The rear pin needs to be changed for a longer one with a big washer and nut on the back inside the wing. There is a variation of the instructions for mod 74 which allows you to go in through the rear close out. Let me know if you need the pages and I will scan and send in the morning. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of spcialeffects Sent: 17 August 2013 21:00 Subject: Europa-List: Wing lift and drag pins Hi all, so im building a classic and am just finishing off my wings. In the combined manual chapter 26 it says that the holes for the wing pins are already drilled and tapped (you XS people dont know what your missing out on!! ) but i need to drill and tap mine myself, so does anyone have the original instructions? Many thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406925#406925 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:36 PM PST US From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing lift and drag pins Here you go. The information you need is to be found in Chapter 10 - 67 of the original Fuselage manual - looks like it was overlooked when the "Combined Build Manual" was compiled. I have scanned both pages for you and also included the mandatory mod that you will need to incorporate in your Classic Wing. Nigel On 17/08/2013 20:59, spcialeffects wrote: > > Hi all, so im building a classic and am just finishing off my wings. In the combined manual chapter 26 it says that the holes for the wing pins are already drilled and tapped (you XS people dont know what your missing out on!! ) but i need to drill and tap mine myself, so does anyone have the original instructions? Many thanks > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406925#406925 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:46 PM PST US From: "ROBERT LINDSAY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: MONOWHEEL RE-MOUNT Thanx Jim & Fred. Forcing the swing arm apart so I could finger the pesky nut plate into alignment worked a treat. Bobs your uncle. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: MONOWHEEL RE-MOUNT Bob...I second Jim's comment...I keep a couple of those tapered punches handy...and keeping w/ the mother tongue, I find it works a treat...F. On Aug 14, 2013, at 10:03 AM, ROBERT LINDSAY wrote: After a tire change, re-mounting the monowheel in the swing arm can be frustrating. Anybody got a clever way to line up the holes in the LG20 nut plate, the LG21 torque plate, The LG02 swing arm and the LG25 stub axle for the three screw-in bolts? Thanx Bob N77EU (XS A077) Coronado California USA href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:29 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Wing lift and drag pins From: "spcialeffects" Thanks Nigel its that first page that I'm after. I couldn't remember who sent me the wing layup papers (using the uni cloth) before (thanks again). I am doing mod 74 but there is no way of incorporating this before having skinned the foam so I have to cut a hole in the skin to fit the mod. Fortunately it hasn't got any filler on it so this makes it a little easier. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406943#406943 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:19 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Just in case anyone going to Laddingford today has scrimped on checking Notams, can I highlight the Red Arrows who are departing Mansfield at 1330 Zulu and going around SE England including Eastbourne & Tunbridge Wells, passing v close to Laddingford!!! 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