---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/06/13: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:34 AM - Re: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ?? (Christoph Both) 2. 10:44 AM - Re: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ?? (nigel henry) 3. 01:24 PM - ADI on android (graeme bird) 4. 02:14 PM - Re: ADI on android (Karl Heindl) 5. 03:28 PM - Re: ADI on android (Frans Veldman) 6. 03:50 PM - Re: ADI on android (Pete) 7. 06:17 PM - Re: ADI on android (Andrew Sarangan) 8. 07:31 PM - Re: ADI on android (Karl Heindl) 9. 11:41 PM - Re: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ?? (Nigel Graham) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:21 AM PST US From: Christoph Both Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ?? I assume this is an important security feature isolating the cockpit cell from the remainder of the back fuselage in case of a hard crash. Perhaps Ivan or Nev or those involved on the first hours have an answer. I would be cautious to make changes, especially reinforcements as in composite construction these changes allow forces to migrate to other areas they might not be intended for, with possibly undesirable consequences. The mandatory root layup Mod of the glider wing speaks of this very clearly where such migratory consequences of material stresses under high G were initially not taken into consideration. Christoph 223 Europa classic Wolfville Nova Scotia Sent from my iPhone On 2013-10-06, at 1:10, "Tony Renshaw" wrote: > Gidday, > Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my fuselage has what appears to be an intentional absence of core material such that an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage directly above the penetrations for the flap drive cross tube. Has anyone externally reinforced this area, by adding core material and strapping it in place, encapsulating it, and resulting in a conventional sandwich construction concept? > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:05 AM PST US From: nigel henry Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ?? > Subject: Europa-List: Fuselage weakness=2C or intentional ?? > From: tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com > Date: Sun=2C 6 Oct 2013 16:07:17 +1100 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Gidday=2C > Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my fusel age has what appears to be an intentional absence of core material such tha t an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage directly above the penetration s for the flap drive cross tube. Has anyone externally reinforced this area =2C by adding core material and strapping it in place=2C encapsulating it =2C and resulting in a conventional sandwich construction concept? > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:30 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android From: "graeme bird" Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or phone. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:48 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: ADI on android Hi Graeme=2C A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android=2C and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely a mazing=2C very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your inst rument panel and away you go. Karl > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android > From: graeme@gdbmk.co.uk > Date: Sun=2C 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM=2C I noticed though the tablet incorporates=2C as well as a high spec GPS=3B a magnetome ter=2C accelerometer=2C and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials fo r an Attitude indicator and a good deal more=2C I wondered if anyone has be en running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or phone. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 75 hours 18 months > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:25 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: ADI on android From: Frans Veldman Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless. Frans Karl Heindl wrote: > >Hi Graeme, >A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app >which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was >absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick >it on your instrument panel and away you go. >Karl > > >> Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android >> From: graeme@gdbmk.co.uk >> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> >> >> Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I >noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a >magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the >essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered >if anyone has been running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or >phone. >> >> -------- >> Graeme Bird >> G-UMPY >> Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> Newby: 75 hours 18 months >> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >=========== >=========== >=========== >=========== >> >> >> > -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: ADI on android From: Pete I agree fully with Frans. For a real horizon which will remain valid during c onstant rate turns etc. I would suggest Levil Technology's AHRS-Gmini with a ir data (which I have tested satisfactorily over about 60 hours), or other A HRS units now on the market which integrate magnetometers and air data to au gment and cross check their gyro and accel parameters. Add a tablet wireless ly and one has a pretty good back-up six pack. Add software like Xavion (fro m the creator of x-plane), and the capabilities for emergencies situations q uickly grow. Fwiw, Cheers Pete A239 > On Oct 6, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so o n the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong t hing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state g yros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not co rrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them p retty useless. > > Frans > > Karl Heindl wrote: >> >> >> Hi Graeme, >> >> A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely am azing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrume nt panel and away you go. >> >> Karl >> >> >> >> > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android >> > From: graeme@gdbmk.co.uk >> > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 >> > To: europa-list@matronics.com >> > >> > >> > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed t hough the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, a ccelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitu de indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a a ttitude good a pp on a similar tablet or phone. >> > >> > -------- >> > Graeme Bird >> > G-UMPY >> > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> > Newby: 75 hours 18 months >> > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >==================== >> > _=== >> > >> > >> > > > -- > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:24 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: ADI on android While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for inflight use, the reason for that lies is the product design, not the technology. Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate signals to fly in IMC if they are designed and tested for that purpose. The ipad, iphone etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose, so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in an airplane. I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old ADF was considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so > on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the > wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that > solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if > they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And > that makes them pretty useless. > > Frans > > Karl Heindl wrote: >> >> >> Hi Graeme, >> >> A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which >> cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely >> amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your >> instrument panel and away you go. >> >> Karl >> >> >> >> > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android >> > From: graeme@gdbmk.co.uk >> > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 >> > To: europa-list@matronics.com >> > >> > >> > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed >> though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, >> accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an >> Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been >> running a attitude good a pp on a similar tablet or phone. >> >> > >> > -------- >> > Graeme Bird >> > G-UMPY >> > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> > Newby: 75 hours 18 months >> > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >==================== >> > _=== >> > >> > >> > >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > -- > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:26 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: ADI on android Frans=2C You are probably right=2C but some manufacturers are marketing pure electro nic AI's and DI's.I think MGL is one=2C and RC ALLEN have a certified one f or a few grand. I don't see any mention of GPS coupling. So what makes one a joke and another that works ? I don't like any of the EFIS units=2C but a m very interested in replacing my vacuum gyros with same size electronic ga dgets. Karl From: asarangan@gmail.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: ADI on android While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for infli ght use=2C the reason for that lies is the product design=2C not the techno logy. Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate signals to fly in IMC if they are designed and tested for that purpose. The ipad=2C iphon e etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose=2C so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in an airplane.=0A =0A I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old ADF w as considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. =0A =0A On Sun=2C Oct 6=2C 2013 at 6:27 PM=2C Frans Veldman wrote: =0A =0A Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so o n the ground they appear to work=2C but while pulling G's they show the wro ng thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid s tate gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference=2C like a GPS signal. And that ma kes them pretty useless. =0A =0A =0A =0A Frans Karl Heindl wrote:=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Hi Graeme=2C A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android=2C and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely a mazing=2C very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your inst rument panel and away you go.=0A =0A Karl > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android > From: graeme@gdbmk.co.uk =0A =0A > Date: Sun=2C 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > =0A =0A > > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM=2C I noticed though the tablet incorporates=2C as well as a high spec GPS=3B a magnetome ter=2C accelerometer=2C and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials fo r an Attitude indicator and a good deal more=2C I wondered if anyone has be en running a attitude good a=0A =0A pp on a=0A similar tablet or phone. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 75 hours 18 months > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk =0A =0A > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 =0A =0A > > > > > > > >==================== > _=== > > > =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A -- =0A Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.=0A =0A =0A =0A arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A tp://forums.matronics.com=0A _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:09 PM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ?? Tony, I suspect that this an obsolete design feature from the old "classic" Europa, that had the bagage bay bulkhead at that position. When bonding component together, you don't want a foam core at the bond-site - hence the triangle (compare the angle of the foam with the angle of the bulkhead). When the classic was developed into the XS and the bulkhead moved back, this was never changed. It does not constitute a weak point and I would not worry about it. Adding more material will only add more weight. Nigel On 06/10/2013 06:07, Tony Renshaw wrote: > Gidday, > Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my fuselage has what appears to be an intentional absence of core material such that an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage directly above the penetrations for the flap drive cross tube. Has anyone externally reinforced this area, by adding core material and strapping it in place, encapsulating it, and resulting in a conventional sandwich construction concept? > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.