---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/08/13: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:24 AM - Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest (richard) 2. 03:58 AM - Re: {Spam?} Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest (Pete Lawless) 3. 10:13 AM - Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest (graeme bird) 4. 10:36 AM - Re: ADI on android (graeme bird) 5. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest (Fred Klein) 6. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest (William Daniell) 7. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest (Fred Klein) 8. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Raimo Toivio) 9. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Bob Harrison) 10. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest (William Daniell) 11. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Robert Borger) 12. 01:56 PM - Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Carter) 13. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Kevin Challis) 14. 02:11 PM - Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Carter) 15. 02:15 PM - Re: SB15-v- clamps (Alan Carter) 16. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: SB15-v- clamps (danny shepherd) 17. 10:25 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Raimo Toivio) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:28 AM PST US From: "richard" Subject: Re: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest Will Hi . As you have got this far I would suggest you flush out the tank with fuel as well as you can using the two tank drains and buy yourself a large bag of replacement filter screens and go with it. Watch the filters [the standard ones under the seat] like a hawk and change very regularly for the first 50hrs. Also after you have completed the test flight program I would make a point when re-fuelling of filling up right to the top so that the whole of the inside has a good flush.Loose tank material is translucent when wet with fuel which makes it very difficult to see so if in doubt just change the filter. If like me you have no valve between the fuel tank and the filter then buy a brake hose squeeze tool =C2=A36 or =C2=A37 from Halfords makes the job easy. Also an after thought, have you got a fuel pressure gauge if not fit one =C2=A350 peace of mind and practice changing to reserve tank [different filter]. Good luck regards Richard From: William Daniell Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 11:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest I have been Reading the questions and issues with respect to the fuel gauge sender unit. When I put it in I still had faith in the instructions and therefore put it, like the instructions told me to, under the raised seat/back headrest thing. I did not use sealant (cos the instructions didn=99t tell me to) but from the posts it appears I should have. Also there have been a number of people suggesting that it would be a good idea to hoover out the tank before starting the engine. I assembled the tank and put it into the cockpit module at least 5 years ago and haven=99t put fuel in yet. So what does the assembled wisdom advise? Should I do nothing (wait and see)? Should I cut the headrest off take the fuel sender out, hoover out, apply sealant and reassemble? Or should I relocate to between the headrests? I hate to think of cutting up the cockpit module but I gather it=99s been done before for example to take you split tanks. Will ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:05 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest Hi William >From personal experience hovering out the tank is not particularly effective and certainly not worth doing anything drastic for. Just change the filter element regularly ' like every couple of hours at the start. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of richard Sent: 08 October 2013 11:24 Subject: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest Will Hi . As you have got this far I would suggest you flush out the tank with fuel as well as you can using the two tank drains and buy yourself a large bag of replacement filter screens and go with it. Watch the filters [the standard ones under the seat] like a hawk and change very regularly for the first 50hrs. Also after you have completed the test flight program I would make a point when re-fuelling of filling up right to the top so that the whole of the inside has a good flush.Loose tank material is translucent when wet with fuel which makes it very difficult to see so if in doubt just change the filter. If like me you have no valve between the fuel tank and the filter then buy a brake hose squeeze tool =A36 or =A37 from Halfords makes the job easy. Also an after thought, have you got a fuel pressure gauge if not fit one =A350 peace of mind and practice changing to reserve tank [different filter]. Good luck regards Richard From: William Daniell Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 11:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest I have been Reading the questions and issues with respect to the fuel gauge sender unit. When I put it in I still had faith in the instructions and therefore put it, like the instructions told me to, under the raised seat/back headrest thing. I did not use sealant (cos the instructions didn=92t tell me to) but from the posts it appears I should have. Also there have been a number of people suggesting that it would be a good idea to hoover out the tank before starting the engine. I assembled the tank and put it into the cockpit module at least 5 years ago and haven=92t put fuel in yet. So what does the assembled wisdom advise? Should I do nothing (wait and see)? Should I cut the headrest off take the fuel sender out, hoover out, apply sealant and reassemble? Or should I relocate to between the headrests? I hate to think of cutting up the cockpit module but I gather it=92s been done before =85for example to take you split tanks. Will href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:00 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest From: "graeme bird" if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Sealer is not required in the tank. Also you should be aware that because of the tank shape the gauge will read non linearly and half full will be twenty something liters. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410073#410073 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:48 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: ADI on android From: "graeme bird" umm I wouldn't be so hasty to rubbish it. Technology used to be driven my military applications; now the leading edge is driven by commodity consumer products. No company can afford to develop silicon sensors for a few tens of choppers but they can sell a few million for a WI etc. The sensitivity/quality mostly comes free in these parts. The nexus has a 50 channel GPS in it (I read somewhere). It wouldn't surprise me if a tablet wasn't at least as good as many uncertified EFIS systems. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410076#410076 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:52 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:12 AM, graeme bird wrote: > if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). > If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Excellent suggestions Graeme...thank you...Fred ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:32 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest Graeme Thanks How on earth did you get at the blasted thing? Through the little hole in the headrest? Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:12 Subject: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Sealer is not required in the tank. Also you should be aware that because of the tank shape the gauge will read non linearly and half full will be twenty something liters. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410073#410073 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:06 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:47 AM, William Daniell wrote: > How on earth did you get at the blasted thing? Through the little hole in > the headrest? Will...my hunch is that w/ a short Phillips head it would indeed be possible, but I won't be trying unless it proves to be a source of fuel fumes. I've also concluded that given a proper guideline, my trusty little hacksaw w/ its free end would make short work of slicing off the back rest with a straight and tidy cut, and a 4 layer BID flange w/ a few nutplates would restore order promptly. I'll save my agonizing for other occasions, Fred ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:20 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. -----Alkuperinen viesti----- From: David Joyce Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Jim, I have replaced my Odyssey every 5 + years so you may not be getting value for money! Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Wed, 2 Oct 2013 06:03:28 -0700 "h&jeuropa" wrote: > "h&jeuropa" > >Fred, > > We've used Panasonic LC-RD1217P batteries in our > Europa since first flight. They are a little > less expensive than the Oddessy batteries. > We once purchased a "look alike" battery which > failed in a few hours! > > We do load check the battery every year and find > we replace it about every two years. > > Jim & Heather > N241BW Mono 914 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409663#409663 > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List Forums! List Admin. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:55 PM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Hi!Raimo, I had two Odyssey 13 amp hour batteries in parallel for starting my 6 pot Jabiru. For in the region of 9 years and they never faltered . I replaced them about 3 years ago just because I got "cold feet " with the 914 Rotax being all electric fuel pumps and replaced them like for like. The old ones are still used for slave purposes around the workshop and my caravan and still hold a charge for a long while . Congrats to Marke on doing her solo flight . Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 08 October 2013 20:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:14 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest The verdict is "wait and see" and keep a close watch on the filters Thanks everyone will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:40 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:12 AM, graeme bird wrote: if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Excellent suggestions Graeme...thank you...Fred ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions From: Robert Borger Raimo, I too have been known, on a rare occasion, to leave the master on. I think I've done that three times in the last 5 years. First two times it was with an Odyssey 680. First time it happened I put a charger on it and it came back like new. About 18 months later I did it again. Put the charger on it and it came back. But this time I was concerned so I replaced it with a new Odyssey and put the old Odyssey in an old Jeep we use at the hunting lease. It worked in that Jeep for about 4 years till my hunting bud left the key on for about 6 months. That pretty much killed it. Meanwhile, this spring, I replaced the Odyssey in the Europa with a tiny little, very light (and very expensive) LiFePo battery. The Odyssey I took out went into the Jeep. The new LiFePo battery seemed to work quite well for starting and running. Eventually, I did a run-down test to see how long it would operate the EFIS, EIS, Radio & Xponder. Turned out, not very long. After about 10 minutes things started dropping off. I recharged & balanced the LiFePo battery overnight and it was fine the next day. BTW, I kept the charger/balancer on whenever the aircraft was in the hanger. Flew a couple times over the next week and parked it to do more testing. This time I went off leaving the master on (with the charger attached, btw). Next day, the battery was DEAD. And I mean DEAD. Would not accept a charge. I put a new Odyssey back in the aircraft and plan to stick with them from now on. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: "Alan Carter" Hi Paul. This is getting a bit confusing, I have thousands of hours on instruments, and at my age I only fly in good weather, and have no intension of flying in IMC in a Europa, and I do have the Placard in the aircraft. Its is not me doing the IMC Rating, its another pilot, or other pilots. I was only trying to be helpful in pointing out that the hours towards an IMC rating carried out on a Europa may not count towards the rating. So better check it out. I see no reason why you cannot practice instrument flying with a check pilot or instructor, but I don,t think ? the hours will count towards the rating, ??? Its not for me to find out. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410096#410096 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: Kevin Challis They do count. Kevin Challis On 8 Oct 2013, at 21:55, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > Hi Paul. > This is getting a bit confusing, I have thousands of hours on instruments, and at my age I only fly in good weather, and have no intension of flying in IMC in a Europa, and I do have the Placard in the aircraft. > Its is not me doing the IMC Rating, its another pilot, or other pilots. > I was only trying to be helpful in pointing out that the hours towards an IMC rating carried out on a Europa may not count towards the rating. > So better check it out. I see no reason why you cannot practice instrument flying with a check pilot or instructor, but I don,t think ? the hours will count towards the rating, ??? Its not for me to find out. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410096#410096 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:12 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: "Alan Carter" Hello Kevin Well that's the Answer, So my Examiner was wrong, I will tell him. Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410098#410098 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:21 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: SB15-v- clamps From: "Alan Carter" Hi Danny, Sounds like you had an easy fit, mine was a sod of a job maybe Pat told you. Yes he is a very nice Chap. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410099#410099 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:08 PM PST US From: danny shepherd Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: SB15-v- clamps Yep, everything went smoothly:-) . Danny. On 08/10/2013 22:15, Alan Carter wrote: > > Hi Danny, > Sounds like you had an easy fit, mine was a sod of a job maybe Pat told you. > Yes he is a very nice Chap. > Alan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410099#410099 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:44 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions WoW Bob, that was a story which was expected. If somebody has an obsession to update for a LiFePo style battery, I would carry always omboard a spare one (or have a dual system and not forget a 2nd master on). 10 minutes is an awful short time to have electricitet in the case alt/chg failure - that is an another reason to have a dual system (if you are a LiFePo - user boy). Cheers, Raimo -----Alkuperinen viesti----- From: Robert Borger Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 11:31 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Raimo, I too have been known, on a rare occasion, to leave the master on. I think I've done that three times in the last 5 years. First two times it was with an Odyssey 680. First time it happened I put a charger on it and it came back like new. About 18 months later I did it again. Put the charger on it and it came back. But this time I was concerned so I replaced it with a new Odyssey and put the old Odyssey in an old Jeep we use at the hunting lease. It worked in that Jeep for about 4 years till my hunting bud left the key on for about 6 months. That pretty much killed it. Meanwhile, this spring, I replaced the Odyssey in the Europa with a tiny little, very light (and very expensive) LiFePo battery. The Odyssey I took out went into the Jeep. The new LiFePo battery seemed to work quite well for starting and running. Eventually, I did a run-down test to see how long it would operate the EFIS, EIS, Radio & Xponder. Turned out, not very long. After about 10 minutes thi! ngs started dropping off. I recharged & balanced the LiFePo battery overnight and it was fine the next day. BTW, I kept the charger/balancer on whenever the aircraft was in the hanger. Flew a couple times over the next week and parked it to do more testing. This time I went off leaving the master on (with the charger attached, btw). Next day, the battery was DEAD. And I mean DEAD. Would not accept a charge. I put a new Odyssey back in the aircraft and plan to stick with them from now on. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List Forums! 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