Europa-List Digest Archive

Thu 10/10/13


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:08 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (David Joyce)
     2. 02:21 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman)
     3. 06:42 AM - Re: Battery questions (jonathanmilbank)
     4. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Paul McAllister)
     5. 10:41 AM - Re: Battery questions (gtagr)
     6. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Fred Klein)
     7. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Paul McAllister)
     8. 01:34 PM - Re: Battery questions (Alan Carter)
     9. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Pete Lawless)
    10. 02:28 PM - Sight Gauge Restrictor (Tony Renshaw)
    11. 03:39 PM - Re: Sight Gauge Restrictor (Christoph Both)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:08:05 AM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    Alan, you have in effect got a dual supply - the battery and the alternator. If you have wired things according to the Europa instructions you will find that you can switch off both main & alternator switches in flight and the engine keeps running. All the electrical instruments which haven't got internal batteries go out, which is a bit scary but the engine remains entirely happy, fuelled by the electric pump run directly off the alternator. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (914 mono) On Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:17:13 -0700 "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote: ><alancarteresq@onetel.net> > > Hi All. > I just have one Odyssey haven't a clue as to the size of >it, also a 914, > But to me it seems crazy to rely totally on electrics >for fuel supply. > If the fuel stops the engine stops. > Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an >electrical pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical >pump in the system, the 912 have both. > Its the same as having a totally electric instrument >panel, I much prefer > a dual system. Systems do fail and usually its the time >when you really didn't want it too. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410164#410164 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:21:45 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/10/2013 12:17 AM, Alan Carter wrote: > Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical > pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system, > the 912 have both. There are two reasons: 1) The 914 needs a higher fuel pressure. 2) The 914 runs hotter, and the inlet air has an elevated temperature because of the compression by the turbo. A mechanical fuel pump connected to the hot engine, plus its long hose routing through the cowling, allows considerable heat transfer to the fuel. Then you have the combination of hot inlet air and hot fuel. This increases the chances of vapor lock (and detonation?) considerably. The Rotax engineers designed the fuel system of the 914 setup such that you can keep the fuel pumps outside the cowling, with no mechanical connection to the hot engine, and with very little fuel hose exposed inside the cowling. Together with the high return flow this ensures that the fuel reaching the carbs won't get too hot. The concept works, I don't remember having seen reports of a double electrical fuel pump failure. Don't fix something that isn't broken! If you want additional redundancy, I would recommend putting an extra alternator on the engine. There are very small light weight alternators that fit on the vaccuum pad of the engine and are able to run a fuel pump plus some additional items. You can only use it of course if you have no vacuum pump on the engine. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSVnGOAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVmmgQAMEyRzpGOCtAh/ENFXFxhVhl nbfetw1ny9TBTsmRWGkok/QufWCdxvzxVRCFWvFMBgXj3+CgwxU83m7Xe3GQwoLN rTzzRI2qSGdyOC9oEl9sMUjrYp2iOrlXlfelxlkyIoDPQJ5mmhueHXxC+TR0CL5X 9fI8CwbwGItAApVFWkEgLNYQCL7dZCVOzd3mo24K/qKHAXvG+KJuYOY71ZCpRgUC 48yqt9OlVfT/TgOeREla69FoWRAtbgoDbvBOmC7hQrgCTDMgdetKLqRuwKS3QgCQ cVeb/K6wnr8ZKxxqenY7wZjl0S7/MZmNy3tOtJOGLhPzrLH1Cly+YwxBeC+CuhWk RgAlGAPMMxutyM8KRhV5PBRFR4D2pCPpFb91OMeJKww2sUdH/KSW2SkG0PUQv3cV scgqjnXXH7piN+/XdLnVx585vvmep7Dcdx/M8JocNQL4QMYg5I7Yg6F9GGaWxoOI 2vRfSnb+g/Ch/Hy7d8+Ms5OFDZk1ZXliRT6EQzQ2nUYsC3wLJlEpATotqk3Rqjoy m1jfFVanChIT4IHWBHKtboRRP2ZR3iHC98eo2iyQ7Q9/OumQr+OguTTBNp2X13rE bRQoifqjtUcOQ/FwKzDB/5Lgu2SQivAmSvHtDDnp/MvZs5W2pVVYEOHEKu7eUk68 BBH9SeA4VB0eGW1hlHzn =N5Q2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:42:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
    My situation: this winter I'm upgrading from Rotax 912UL to 912S 100hp, but keeping the installation in the Classic engine bearer and retaining the original cowlings and firewall forward as far as possible. Therefore I MUST keep the old shorter starter motor. For C of G reasons, the battery must be mounted in the rear fuselage behind the old (smaller) baggage bay and therefore the battery must be very safe and immune from risks of overheating. At the moment I have a simple ride-on lawnmower lead-acid battery, which might not have enough "oomph" to start the higher compression S engine. What I'm hoping you can tell me is which is the most common battery used in UK LAA Permit Europas and referring to a friend's quote "I can't remember what the system voltage is with the engine running, but the odysseys need 14.1 to 14.7v to ensure avoidance of both sulphation and overcharging", should I be installing a different rectifier/regulator? My 912UL engine only produces a maximum of 14.2 volts. Maybe I can manage with the ride-on lawnmower battery, but I doubt it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410213#410213


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:13:22 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
    Okay, I'll weigh in. I am with Frans on this one. There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can confirm that this works. My Europa took a lightning hit which took out my main electrical system and I was able to switch over to the E buss and continue flying to the nearest airport. This system (if maintained) allows me to fly for over 90 minutes. There are refined, well understood designs for single battery E buss, single battery dual alternator, or dual battery dual alternator systems. Redesigning the Rotax fuel delivery system isn't what I would choose to do. Just my 2 cents worth. > On 10/10/2013 12:17 AM, Alan Carter wrote: > > > Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical > > pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system, > > the 912 have both. > > The Rotax > engineers designed the fuel system of the 914 setup such that you can > keep the fuel pumps outside the cowling, with no mechanical connection > to the hot engine, and with very little fuel hose exposed inside the > cowling. Together with the high return flow this ensures that the fuel > reaching the carbs won't get too hot. > > The concept works, I don't remember having seen reports of a double > electrical fuel pump failure. Don't fix something that isn't broken! > > > Frans > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:41:11 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    From: "gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com>
    "My Europa took a lightning hit" wow - that's a story - was there any structural damage or signs of plasma entry/exit? Any pictures? I have always thought a lightning strike would incapacitate a Europa airframe Do tell Clive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410229#410229


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:42:14 AM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can confirm that this works. Paul, Can you recall which of the "Z" circuit diagrams you used as a guide? Fred


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:40:04 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
    Sorry Fred, Its nearly 10 years since I wired up my airplane. I'd suggest to sign up to Bob's forum and put the question out there. Paul On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote: > > On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical > dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can > confirm that this works. > > > Paul, > > Can you recall which of the "Z" circuit diagrams you used as a guide? > > Fred > > * > > * > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:34:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi Bob ,David and All. Many thanks for your reply's, it must have been a good question. Very interesting on the Alternator wiring and the Battery, I will check it out, but not in the air David, I did not build the plane, I have learnt something here and will post what I find, Lots of Alternators and spare Battery's required, I much prefer Bobs mechanical pump and if well insulated should have no heat problem. All these other options are work arounds and I have no doubt they all work but one should not have to do all these work arounds and if one buys a 30000 engine it should not be totally dependant on electricity, the pumps may be OK but if the Alternator fails and lets say an old battery or loose terminal the engine stops, This does not sound good design to me. If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum instrument ??,so down to electric only. I will make do with what I have, just hope its wired Alternator pump, battery pump, so does mean that if the engine is not running my Number 2 pump will not run as I prim using the number on pump. Many thanks. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410247#410247


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:14:31 PM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Re: Battery questions
    Hi All Just a question for the all electric pumps installation - you are flying happily along when that burning insulation smell starts followed by smoke seemingly from behind the panel - what do you turn off? Personally I would just like to kill all the electrics and still have my engine running. Pete G-RMAC Classic 912ul PS OK so it has not happened yet but that does not mean it won't! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 10 October 2013 21:34 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Hi Bob ,David and All. Many thanks for your reply's, it must have been a good question. Very interesting on the Alternator wiring and the Battery, I will check it out, but not in the air David, I did not build the plane, I have learnt something here and will post what I find, Lots of Alternators and spare Battery's required, I much prefer Bobs mechanical pump and if well insulated should have no heat problem. All these other options are work arounds and I have no doubt they all work but one should not have to do all these work arounds and if one buys a 30000 engine it should not be totally dependant on electricity, the pumps may be OK but if the Alternator fails and lets say an old battery or loose terminal the engine stops, This does not sound good design to me. If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum instrument ??,so down to electric only. I will make do with what I have, just hope its wired Alternator pump, battery pump, so does mean that if the engine is not running my Number 2 pump will not run as I prim using the number on pump. Many thanks. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410247#410247 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:28:46 PM PST US
    Subject: Sight Gauge Restrictor
    From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
    Hi, I intend on installing a sight gauge and would like to request advice on the fitting of the fuel restrictor. I dont appear to have one, so I'd be interested what hole size is considered appropriate, and how I make such a fitting? I appreciate the hole size is fairly critical to its functionality, too large and it wont dampen, & too small and it wont really work. We are also after some baby ball socket fuel line valves we have seen on Jabirus and another exotic European kit aircraft. If anyone knows of a source to buy such a valve a couple of us would very much appreciate knowing. Thanks. Regards Tony Renshaw


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:39:35 PM PST US
    From: Christoph Both <christoph.both@acadiau.ca>
    Subject: Re: Sight Gauge Restrictor
    Hi Tony, I used the same Europa provided FS2 aluminum Fuel restrictor insert as for the fuel return line. It is well made. It dampens quite well but it is also sufficiently wide to keep up with me watching the correct filling when filling gas. It fits well into the blue Bing fuel resistant line, fastened with a single nylon, but I found the blue line a bit hard to read in the tunnel. Christoph #223 Classic Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada On 13-10-10 6:28 PM, "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> wrote: > >Hi, >I intend on installing a sight gauge and would like to request advice on >the fitting of the fuel restrictor. I dont appear to have one, so I'd be >interested what hole size is considered appropriate, and how I make such >a fitting? I appreciate the hole size is fairly critical to its >functionality, too large and it wont dampen, & too small and it wont >really work. >We are also after some baby ball socket fuel line valves we have seen on >Jabirus and another exotic European kit aircraft. If anyone knows of a >source to buy such a valve a couple of us would very much appreciate >knowing. Thanks. >Regards >Tony Renshaw > >




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