Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (David Joyce)
2. 02:21 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman)
3. 06:42 AM - Re: Battery questions (jonathanmilbank)
4. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Paul McAllister)
5. 10:41 AM - Re: Battery questions (gtagr)
6. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Fred Klein)
7. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Paul McAllister)
8. 01:34 PM - Re: Battery questions (Alan Carter)
9. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Pete Lawless)
10. 02:28 PM - Sight Gauge Restrictor (Tony Renshaw)
11. 03:39 PM - Re: Sight Gauge Restrictor (Christoph Both)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
Alan, you have in effect got a dual supply - the battery
and the alternator. If you have wired things according to
the Europa instructions you will find that you can switch
off both main & alternator switches in flight and the
engine keeps running. All the electrical instruments which
haven't got internal batteries go out, which is a bit
scary but the engine remains entirely happy, fuelled by
the electric pump run directly off the alternator.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (914 mono)
On Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:17:13 -0700
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
><alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi All.
> I just have one Odyssey haven't a clue as to the size of
>it, also a 914,
> But to me it seems crazy to rely totally on electrics
>for fuel supply.
> If the fuel stops the engine stops.
> Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an
>electrical pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical
>pump in the system, the 912 have both.
> Its the same as having a totally electric instrument
>panel, I much prefer
> a dual system. Systems do fail and usually its the time
>when you really didn't want it too.
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410164#410164
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
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On 10/10/2013 12:17 AM, Alan Carter wrote:
> Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical
> pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system,
> the 912 have both.
There are two reasons:
1) The 914 needs a higher fuel pressure.
2) The 914 runs hotter, and the inlet air has an elevated temperature
because of the compression by the turbo. A mechanical fuel pump
connected to the hot engine, plus its long hose routing through the
cowling, allows considerable heat transfer to the fuel. Then you have
the combination of hot inlet air and hot fuel. This increases the
chances of vapor lock (and detonation?) considerably. The Rotax
engineers designed the fuel system of the 914 setup such that you can
keep the fuel pumps outside the cowling, with no mechanical connection
to the hot engine, and with very little fuel hose exposed inside the
cowling. Together with the high return flow this ensures that the fuel
reaching the carbs won't get too hot.
The concept works, I don't remember having seen reports of a double
electrical fuel pump failure. Don't fix something that isn't broken!
If you want additional redundancy, I would recommend putting an extra
alternator on the engine. There are very small light weight
alternators that fit on the vaccuum pad of the engine and are able to
run a fuel pump plus some additional items. You can only use it of
course if you have no vacuum pump on the engine.
Frans
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
My situation: this winter I'm upgrading from Rotax 912UL to 912S 100hp, but keeping
the installation in the Classic engine bearer and retaining the original
cowlings and firewall forward as far as possible. Therefore I MUST keep the old
shorter starter motor.
For C of G reasons, the battery must be mounted in the rear fuselage behind the
old (smaller) baggage bay and therefore the battery must be very safe and immune
from risks of overheating. At the moment I have a simple ride-on lawnmower
lead-acid battery, which might not have enough "oomph" to start the higher compression
S engine.
What I'm hoping you can tell me is which is the most common battery used in UK
LAA Permit Europas and referring to a friend's quote "I can't remember what the
system voltage is with the engine running, but the odysseys need 14.1 to 14.7v
to ensure avoidance of both sulphation and overcharging", should I be installing
a different rectifier/regulator?
My 912UL engine only produces a maximum of 14.2 volts. Maybe I can manage with
the ride-on lawnmower battery, but I doubt it.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410213#410213
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
Okay, I'll weigh in. I am with Frans on this one.
There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical dependency.
I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can confirm that
this works.
My Europa took a lightning hit which took out my main electrical system and
I was able to switch over to the E buss and continue flying to the nearest
airport. This system (if maintained) allows me to fly for over 90 minutes.
There are refined, well understood designs for single battery E buss,
single battery dual alternator, or dual battery dual alternator systems.
Redesigning the Rotax fuel delivery system isn't what I would choose to do.
Just my 2 cents worth.
> On 10/10/2013 12:17 AM, Alan Carter wrote:
>
> > Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical
> > pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system,
> > the 912 have both.
>
> The Rotax
> engineers designed the fuel system of the 914 setup such that you can
> keep the fuel pumps outside the cowling, with no mechanical connection
> to the hot engine, and with very little fuel hose exposed inside the
> cowling. Together with the high return flow this ensures that the fuel
> reaching the carbs won't get too hot.
>
> The concept works, I don't remember having seen reports of a double
> electrical fuel pump failure. Don't fix something that isn't broken!
>
>
> Frans
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
"My Europa took a lightning hit"
wow - that's a story - was there any structural damage or signs of plasma entry/exit?
Any pictures? I have always thought a lightning strike would incapacitate
a Europa airframe
Do tell
Clive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410229#410229
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:
> There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical
dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I
can confirm that this works.
Paul,
Can you recall which of the "Z" circuit diagrams you used as a guide?
Fred
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
Sorry Fred,
Its nearly 10 years since I wired up my airplane. I'd suggest to sign up to
Bob's forum and put the question out there.
Paul
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:
>
> There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical
> dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can
> confirm that this works.
>
>
> Paul,
>
> Can you recall which of the "Z" circuit diagrams you used as a guide?
>
> Fred
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
Hi Bob ,David and All.
Many thanks for your reply's, it must have been a good question.
Very interesting on the Alternator wiring and the Battery, I will check it out,
but not in the air David, I did not build the plane, I have learnt something here
and will post what I find,
Lots of Alternators and spare Battery's required, I much prefer Bobs mechanical
pump and if well insulated should have no heat problem.
All these other options are work arounds and I have no doubt they all work but
one should not have to do all these work arounds and if one buys a 30000 engine
it should not be totally dependant on electricity, the pumps may be OK but if
the Alternator fails and lets say an old battery or loose terminal the engine
stops, This does not sound good design to me.
If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum instrument ??,so
down to electric only.
I will make do with what I have, just hope its wired Alternator pump, battery pump,
so does mean that if the engine is not running my Number 2 pump will not
run as I prim using the number on pump.
Many thanks.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410247#410247
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Subject: | Re: Battery questions |
Hi All
Just a question for the all electric pumps installation - you are flying
happily along when that burning insulation smell starts followed by smoke
seemingly from behind the panel - what do you turn off?
Personally I would just like to kill all the electrics and still have my
engine running.
Pete
G-RMAC Classic 912ul
PS OK so it has not happened yet but that does not mean it won't!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter
Sent: 10 October 2013 21:34
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions
Hi Bob ,David and All.
Many thanks for your reply's, it must have been a good question.
Very interesting on the Alternator wiring and the Battery, I will check it
out,
but not in the air David, I did not build the plane, I have learnt something
here and will post what I find,
Lots of Alternators and spare Battery's required, I much prefer Bobs
mechanical pump and if well insulated should have no heat problem.
All these other options are work arounds and I have no doubt they all work
but one should not have to do all these work arounds and if one buys a
30000 engine it should not be totally dependant on electricity, the pumps
may be OK but if the Alternator fails and lets say an old battery or loose
terminal the engine stops, This does not sound good design to me.
If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum instrument
??,so down to electric only.
I will make do with what I have, just hope its wired Alternator pump,
battery pump, so does mean that if the engine is not running my Number 2
pump will not run as I prim using the number on pump.
Many thanks.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410247#410247
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Subject: | Sight Gauge Restrictor |
Hi,
I intend on installing a sight gauge and would like to request advice on the fitting
of the fuel restrictor. I dont appear to have one, so I'd be interested
what hole size is considered appropriate, and how I make such a fitting? I appreciate
the hole size is fairly critical to its functionality, too large and it
wont dampen, & too small and it wont really work.
We are also after some baby ball socket fuel line valves we have seen on Jabirus
and another exotic European kit aircraft. If anyone knows of a source to buy
such a valve a couple of us would very much appreciate knowing. Thanks.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Sight Gauge Restrictor |
Hi Tony,
I used the same Europa provided FS2 aluminum Fuel restrictor insert as for
the fuel return line. It is well made. It dampens quite well but it is
also sufficiently wide to keep up with me watching the correct filling
when filling gas. It fits well into the blue Bing fuel resistant line,
fastened with a single nylon, but I found the blue line a bit hard to read
in the tunnel.
Christoph
#223 Classic
Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
On 13-10-10 6:28 PM, "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hi,
>I intend on installing a sight gauge and would like to request advice on
>the fitting of the fuel restrictor. I dont appear to have one, so I'd be
>interested what hole size is considered appropriate, and how I make such
>a fitting? I appreciate the hole size is fairly critical to its
>functionality, too large and it wont dampen, & too small and it wont
>really work.
>We are also after some baby ball socket fuel line valves we have seen on
>Jabirus and another exotic European kit aircraft. If anyone knows of a
>source to buy such a valve a couple of us would very much appreciate
>knowing. Thanks.
>Regards
>Tony Renshaw
>
>
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