---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/11/13: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:46 AM - 912 S (Klaus Dietrich) 2. 01:16 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Brian Davies) 3. 02:56 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman) 4. 03:09 AM - Re: Battery questions (Alan Carter) 5. 03:16 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman) 6. 03:24 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman) 7. 04:43 AM - Re: 912 S (Christoph Both) 8. 05:04 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (GTH) 9. 05:29 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman) 10. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Pete) 11. 06:03 AM - GAR forms (Rowland Carson) 12. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman) 13. 08:11 AM - Re: Battery questions (Alan Carter) 14. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Frans Veldman) 15. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions (Fred Klein) 16. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions () 17. 11:17 AM - Re: Battery questions (jonathanmilbank) 18. 01:21 PM - Re: Battery questions (Alan Carter) 19. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions () 20. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Battery questions (David Joyce) 21. 03:18 PM - Re: Battery questions (Alan Carter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:27 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: 912 S From: Klaus Dietrich Hi Jonathan, I'm also planing to do the 912S upgrade while keeping the original MkI installation... The new 912s engine comes with an incorporated soft start module and starts much better than the old 912S! So the old starter will do perfectly! Since 12 month I'm using a LiFePo battery (Super B 7800) which is 1,3kg! The battery is mounted in the engine compartment on top of the footwell and is excellent! Before that I had an Odyssey which was 6kg! On your new installation will you use the fibreglass cooling duct from rotax and are you planning to use any sort of carb Hester? All the best, Klaus (OE-CKD, Nr 134) Klaus A. Dietrich Tel: +43 699 104 18 106 sent on the move... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:23 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Jonathan, I have been using a Varley Redtop 25 racing battery which is 16AH AGM (absorbed glass matt). This is virtually identical spec to the Odyssey PC680 which many people use for a Rotax 912S. It has provided perfect starting for 6 years. The battery is behind the baggage bay and uses 4 gauge battery cables. I have never seen more than 14.2 volts system voltage and on a fully charged battery it is mostly at 13.8 volts. Provided you have good connections and big enough cable, I don't think you will have any problems with a new Rotax 912S, even with the older starter, as long as the sprag clutch is in good condition. Regards Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonathanmilbank Sent: 10 October 2013 14:40 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions --> My situation: this winter I'm upgrading from Rotax 912UL to 912S 100hp, but keeping the installation in the Classic engine bearer and retaining the original cowlings and firewall forward as far as possible. Therefore I MUST keep the old shorter starter motor. For C of G reasons, the battery must be mounted in the rear fuselage behind the old (smaller) baggage bay and therefore the battery must be very safe and immune from risks of overheating. At the moment I have a simple ride-on lawnmower lead-acid battery, which might not have enough "oomph" to start the higher compression S engine. What I'm hoping you can tell me is which is the most common battery used in UK LAA Permit Europas and referring to a friend's quote "I can't remember what the system voltage is with the engine running, but the odysseys need 14.1 to 14.7v to ensure avoidance of both sulphation and overcharging", should I be installing a different rectifier/regulator? My 912UL engine only produces a maximum of 14.2 volts. Maybe I can manage with the ride-on lawnmower battery, but I doubt it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410213#410213 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:52 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/10/2013 11:14 PM, Pete Lawless wrote: > Just a question for the all electric pumps installation - you are > flying happily along when that burning insulation smell starts > followed by smoke seemingly from behind the panel - what do you > turn off? First of all, it should not be possible that this happens. There is a simple rule, always wire downstream of a CB or fuse with a wire gauge suitable for carrying at least the max current of the CB or fuse. So, even if something goes wrong, then still either the CB pops or nothing happens. Secondly, invest in a good amps gauge. I know from all equipment how much current it is normally using; if something goes wrong I can easily sort out which circuit is going south and pull the assosiated CB. If there is smoke, there must be quite some current flowing somewhere, and it should be relatively easy to find the corresponding circuit. Third, if you follow the Europa design you have the second fuel pump wired directly to the alternator. This means that you can indeed turn off everything and the engine keeps running. Unless the fault is in the alternator or remaining pump, but then this means that the rest of the system is still alive so you should be able to operate from the other fuel pump. Of course this is only possible if there is a way to isolate the alternator from the electrical system, either manually or with a CB/fuse. Last, I have two completely independant electrical systems, each with its own alternator and battery. I can kill one complete electrical system and operate the ship from the remaining bus. > Personally I would just like to kill all the electrics and still > have my engine running. That is still possible. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV8s7AAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVgKMQAM0cKKKYu/NdJNHkEXY1V0sA 61T/POD+NhM2ZFj+L3o3ZuPRW0fl/8nEn0u4cx8jkncjqqyofYrAcs3YRztgnn6L cO8oAHHlQ/09foACWccN6IVCDAc5sNDvGtxTTwVwRFJcfLoSz2mmPbE92Ls9bkWL 1xsH3gDltxX3J1mpLzR43PVrKAGcNoNLnHVjUEgWa2sqXVH6HVD/isQm42LoTm+z t98KMPMie0AY0RluT1wE+qhfL9fCF+RFiW8H7NJ2F2tx3FE+1YFKwIXnbxSSS6Ts FJCNIByCncxwPYAyWBHlr8z+Q56Dzq8CUwckX2BnNZqlUJgs17CaxV4c4ipIuqBZ FAdBOmP6sU1ld4p3IKx5bkaHw+hJniLWJBUr6QJKtxSPWGjksGWSzDtv68+jSBB1 T71B3dw8Nt2OwXk1Gcbohh+kzqu2bryPPBskPbBBz4IAsM11fszs2hVDFpKlREqM 7SFgp2TzGPj8cc3Nq71+8JEaPO0VEYEsZnIaEZ/7zeuYKvP/AyzFeGFiJgL92RVd qhx+bOXkGKv0oHCt/n1pU3EHHGSng31a+5N3Ykc+oORJ+9dDrkZx/6U6ZEILZ0lx RHJKEcknLiXvyzo/LcnZaLUgjklqKjUV6+4GsIBBwJocFOiIRr0Q1YRw7XymhnVt c7aiVwpny/OAvBnLxAa1 =dYgV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:43 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions From: "Alan Carter" That, what I would do Peter, Kill the lot, then pull all the breakers, and if I found I really needed something turn that one on. But before I do I must check David's wiring out, With my luck its probably wired wrong, and the engine will stop. I am wiring my new FFM directly to the battery with fuse and switch, so in the event that If ever i kill the lot, I will still have engine running and fuel indications. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410294#410294 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:33 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/10/2013 10:33 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > I much prefer Bobs mechanical pump and if well insulated should > have no heat problem. I'm interested to learn how you are going to thermally insulate a metal fuel pump bolted to a hot metal engine. Remember that a hot fuel pump is exactly the place where you can expect vapor lock and/or cavitating. And where it does the most harm because the pump then works in a void and the fuel flow stops. There is a reason why the Rotax engineers strayed off the obvious route and came up with something else... > and if one buys a 30000 engine it should not be totally > dependant on electricity, You'd better get used to it. Fuel injection and fadecs are on the rise and without doubt will soon every new engine be dependant on electricity. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. It may have escaped to you that the Rotax alternator has a very special design. It has no brushes, no moving parts at all that can fail. It is the very same alternator that produces the electricity for the spark plugs. In fact, also the 912 is completely dependant on the very same alternator; without it the spark plugs won't fire and also the 912 won't fly any further. So, even if you have a mechanical fuel pump you still have a complete engine stop if this alternator fails. Luckily, it is quite unbreakable. > the pumps may be OK but if the Alternator fails If the alternator fails the spark plugs won't fire anymore, so it doesn't matter whether the pumps stop. > If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum > instrument ?? Vacuum pumps suck. I hope you are not suggesting that vaccuum is more reliable than electricity? Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV8/lAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV0yQP/2nSfPq4Rr+qNq9iLOPoJGx8 MN+aMabXd4dR9DWSJ745LXpUF0Zyrwof4IgeURIKJIH+IU3APDmeOWszogEre6Xr bUZTDnv4y3kXPm6bin5QRADFjzJLlijMbPoOdtLTWnrevKFW56Igz27yVpkKQFC1 LFO48xymQB18EfXiH3awb10uv/PEddhvCBWyoZm5ZcS1k82JjebOfvEZNtQ8DusI BeIslOw9YXgO39dtEZWtfVsrIwUTJH88Nm1TiK9aGUyjOMx0Pc7aFJV4rXlyH5Ck MMOtafgW2/pugHXTKzkd5+l5N1jN68Q1rhBFzbp8FuiLFuTrPwdZAk/1je9lC60M /zdZAeWu729j9Yd5i3dPfs3/c/55dcrL0xcWuZ+U3UOuEkpqJ/nXkQN/YNF1SRad i6egBVcdarcz9mHFDZGprwGFhkxbh15THrmRjO1Flvemdj7dh95fRxN7uzY6HcYc 1SoXYC84kqeRk4aZiZiu+BX0FzMhnLLrT4RWVBpPWAjnBz/RZW5ew1fVaABKsC/3 JqK4rEsHtfM8yCLup+56qhYzfoMnli3sHCwttj/E+ihqhkL4R8TSDHWM+W92wvFD 2XYOcl9m036p5VMORyp24e0jGF6qLnxDhfS6Q1HN2G5v4EJC55g9M3cMVVQXVm5Y oh/8nPablr53vLicJfuz =C2Ah -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:34 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 12:09 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > I am wiring my new FFM directly to the battery with fuse and > switch, so in the event that If ever i kill the lot, I will still > have engine running and fuel indications. What's wrong with wiring the fuel pump to the alternator? If you wire it to the battery, you are defying the purpose of the master switch. In a crash landing, I wouldn't care whether the spark that ignites my leaking fuel was coming from my GPS or from my fuel indicators or fuel pump. (Not to mention the fact that the fuel pump may continue to run after the crash, something you might not desire if there is a fuel leak upstreams). If you wire to the alternator, nothing can go wrong, assuming that the engine will stop at impact and the electricity is long gone before you come to a stop. I must say that I'm a bit surprised how many people easily modify the fuel system and/or electrical system, without understanding what the reasons were why it was designed in that specific way. Don't fix something that isn't broken! 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understanding what the > reasons were why it was designed in that specific way. > > Frans and all, During the build of our project, we made a thorough study of the electrical system of the Rotax 914. We discovered that in some cases true redundancy is not achieved with the schematic provided by Rotax, because of the Rotax voltage regulator behavior. That's why we had to resort to dual battery installation. Concerning the fire hazard in a crash, it is admitted that skinny hot conductors (less than 5 amp) present relatively low risk. Let's remember that at least one always hot conductor exists between the master switch and the main battery contactor, though the current is limited by the contactor coil. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:47 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 02:03 PM, GTH wrote: > During the build of our project, we made a thorough study of the > electrical system of the Rotax 914. We discovered that in some > cases true redundancy is not achieved with the schematic provided > by Rotax, because of the Rotax voltage regulator behavior. That's > why we had to resort to dual battery installation. I have that too. But in the original setup it is as close as you can get to full redundancy. > Concerning the fire hazard in a crash, it is admitted that skinny > hot conductors (less than 5 amp) present relatively low risk. I'm more concerned about sparks. Remember it is also a spark which ignites the fuel in the cylinders. Any cable carrying current *will* spark when ripped apart. And a glass aircraft won't bend but break, so the risk is very high that cables will get sheered off (at the same moment the fuel hoses break as well). > Let's remember that at least one always hot conductor exists > between the master switch and the main battery contactor, though > the current is limited by the contactor coil. That's true. In my ship it is the only "live" wire in the whole aircraft. But you can eliminate the ability to spark if you use a 10 cent transistor to switch the contactor coil (and a diode to extinguish the back flow current). So, there is now nothing that can spark once the master switches are off. Indeed, this is where I diverted from the original plans: I think that keeping the stall warner and trim alive by routing them around the master switch is plain stupid. Then you could keep as well the flaps, the radio and a dozen other "essential" goodies alive. My idea is to keep the electrical systems running until established at "final" (whatever the target of the controlled crash will be) and then fly the remainder without fuel and electricity. I should be close to trimmed out for the intended landing speed and I can well do without a stall warner if necessary. Anyway, I don't want to have any live wires running through the ship at that moment (not to mention electric fuel pumps that keep pumping out fuel once the crash landing has been finished). Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV+8dAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVz90QANIaT9XSocVTuXfn71+v9yk+ pLyCRykuy26gljCTsrQ4Iq/kRdaqvjdIhH61xyDbREQg2lqyP4mt03eEl2IWpb/f xRLfSfgcLwvmHuo+5lyc3dM6L3korHhYW8qu+lUc1hRVWHScn+uarqSOD3rPYG9L yEq/fbfK510j/FvY0BGbjPFk6LGvY9LoNF/BX1TJQBpee6uzhapM2X7sW4tHbPLl g0UOnfvsSTfea6iWdeYw0crPT7TxHt0oXKfcBpzv1IzAT/waisfrTr6QyBCD3Rc5 HggmpDyLzgcPCaLr/3S5trsPd7yCaPxWZXmQeelrB2kfmOrJEnF30yFN7lLgBtrn yjff52Iz7NrEpdebF5amNh4KaGCsUQznOM2Mv6BNQ9yrFslAlK9o5jIac4dshRCS nmZWezTQXFrt2Nz43NbFVVmpqkJ6U/qZGJgvVg4V9yox4qW17uK7ihe6KPobBn8o XKFR69fC6UOeXxh9z/kzD7yHhvEZL/UUDEKtT6PHZg13pfN58GGwkIfu8nohRWsJ cmZj35M5/iOjHwnCfpEzTrhoiuHeVJaCv8fszvyYU14aKFR3JVYk3jRKFANwTOLa 6jxnvvQZV2/6/Lkhq9ZdrwFnG07SY+6GUSzQF/6bo1SeCfgR97fBE9WYRPZDw2Wh AiUX5/xF6odn7FzVjE6f =rQhz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions From: Pete Question though....is there not a a capacitor anywhere in the rotax charging setup? If there is, the switches would not save one from sparks as the charge on the capacitor will more than happily provide a spark when it's wires get shorted in a crash. Cheers, Pete > On Oct 11, 2013, at 6:24 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > >> On 10/11/2013 12:09 PM, Alan Carter wrote: >> >> I am wiring my new FFM directly to the battery with fuse and >> switch, so in the event that If ever i kill the lot, I will still >> have engine running and fuel indications. > > What's wrong with wiring the fuel pump to the alternator? > > If you wire it to the battery, you are defying the purpose of the > master switch. In a crash landing, I wouldn't care whether the spark > that ignites my leaking fuel was coming from my GPS or from my fuel > indicators or fuel pump. (Not to mention the fact that the fuel pump > may continue to run after the crash, something you might not desire if > there is a fuel leak upstreams). > If you wire to the alternator, nothing can go wrong, assuming that the > engine will stop at impact and the electricity is long gone before you > come to a stop. > > I must say that I'm a bit surprised how many people easily modify the > fuel system and/or electrical system, without understanding what the > reasons were why it was designed in that specific way. > > Don't fix something that isn't broken! > > Frans > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV9HMAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV3rgQAMDu70nGFerVnAtslTN4o8xZ > hFjFv16eoW1QwlTDSYccTEe9MIauAlC7jrJIR38sGGSo48qVNvOqy3i5ZfF7PSd9 > TWHc3Tw94iEzCKCOAkmSlwX24RrYw3AevkrIp1uSckw5h8Y9Jt1Klcv3ImbR3QoY > x0dukDs77SNDf74M2XKxkx549yppikv5gnDdAgUgTd6LoM1xCymWxwR5RiaOevB5 > TsyZG1817fG4IvtKndmKICjeTYhDCocoUOyCzT81fDKzCrphuGa0ZGLlWkMYQvP0 > S9CbTA7W5Xw41dRvHvNPfR+8pgxfzYPS047xEHtRWd7GRtlD7HbCcRLKXV2i9+Ju > /LSzXFMJF9bFHEGznmu9B1MIeYxfClNPXWq8w385DIvsESoLtcF5lC+y/iQmmMR7 > ByyyYUwrrjpnTsvZe7VqhcE6f2DuuLxsUvyGs9CIUD6SaIVlKDy3jLAWC3TgpxH+ > SV/ojBrMm/NPE7orCTg27AJ4k9sF0x2FDJ0yMdCf9jSRt7RYWyzKpai333WYeZVI > m8whEurerzq1SLkQeuv7EJBRcWFmd4L6m7bQHVGNDMv/grJWeWVeFPWw2A4/PPtc > QcoL9Q+/lud6DBfSNHvLemxgskAiiYFhxv0df9aszQSOKJSXbyoEE94AH0Nga755 > cm5DwBShBTpyiWacD+tJ > =G2IX > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:32 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: GAR forms Anyone coming into UK from abroad (including those returning to UK after a trip overseas) may be interested in the following item I saw on the AOPA newsletter: AOPA UK has been informed that the system of designated airports through which GA can access the UK without filing a General Aviation Report has been abandoned by the UK Border Force without consultation, and that a GAR must be filed whichever point of entry is to be used. Border Force warns that a fine of 1,000 could be levied in case of default. AOPA is working to address the issue, and more information will be made available soon. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:16 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 02:47 PM, Pete wrote: > > Question though....is there not a a capacitor anywhere in the rotax > charging setup? If there is, the switches would not save one from > sparks as the charge on the capacitor will more than happily > provide a spark when it's wires get shorted in a crash. You can put a bleed resistor over the capacitor, which is a good common practice with all large capacitors. About 500 ohms (for a 12V setup) won't put a serious load on the capacitor but quickly drain it in a few seconds once the feeding voltage disappears. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSWABWAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVpGwP/iQ3J7pG1bBSIjdtoHb0MRUA FQE+ZDFKDeQJtadz7b09dD8pdtJ6IQQkWrmDjtubPtUrksx/eLcMqypKBOAmBk1H RP0FI4nn8YCbWiHBX7TT3ORQvorj+rZ+bWd4zjtPld0qWfkNsjKihUmQsxeK5rHz nlUToR2dy0AbY5DZ3PXAyAE/Nd1fGdbXKtFQ2xz+NxdKrKxAIi2Sf/rszQQyWi4b AAt3cHixdjy+bON8zjtBdMaMzlpJ2GAgfplgBUy8iNK6gdKgm+COT57js1jG0//a yvTYLLh3+4OszO0S+4sOkhAAbfxR6XlgwXv5op+Tye6jZflpKpZe2JY7Zzb6TEVq 4XhWZ0pUTv0WXU1rSke6yMR+VPAXd4x8/a1nAznqLNUWsxYjJ6Ec9CTo1b/mjzst 9WvDannXmE5YteujFj2FQ6kP0pKKLABNIRHZzJbb+RMfNS5y26/6tj1UJzheW195 uTNciYyauYmASBBm1oH0DcThic0bRzsYA1B+jGPpJGiruCQ9np5xHuIP0Adn/faB Gip5zbL9kUDp7hHJJg91gGMjpuKgG4M3y7f8j1+1Ms17lNpxNXKO+n00KCTCIUow jJpeDvwEinnBnTlVgy69A1d+gHdVhtxIC1XB2oKd0gLOgxU5TIFdCOPHs0T83n+t NvfpwrNpfW+48n0+cc1Y =qYh9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions From: "Alan Carter" Hi Frans. I am getting a bit lost here, I think you are saying if my Alternator Fails I won't get the spark to keep the engine running, I am not sure if this is correct, surely my battery will keep the power to the ignition modules for a while.? or am I miss under standing you. With ref to the mechanical pump I believe some 914 in the world have been fitted, there is usually a way to get round cooling, maybe a thermal barrier in the gasket, or water jacket, I am not doing any of these mods, but i have learnt a few things from this topic which I will check out, and hope they are as stated on the forum. The 914 and the 912 I must say I find it hard to believe there is a huge temperature difference under the cowling, why is it so hot. regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410326#410326 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:12 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 05:11 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > > > Hi Frans. I am getting a bit lost here, I think you are saying if > my Alternator Fails I won't get the spark to keep the engine > running, There are mutiple coils in this alternator. Two are used for the ignition, the rest for charging the battery. > I am not sure if this is correct, surely my battery will keep the > power to the ignition modules for a while.? No, the ignition coils are not connected to the battery. > With ref to the mechanical pump I believe some 914 in the world > have been fitted, there is usually a way to get round cooling, > maybe a thermal barrier in the gasket, or water jacket, Why would you go that complicated route if there is a better solution? > The 914 and the 912 I must say I find it hard to believe there is a > huge temperature difference under the cowling, why is it so hot. The 914 has a turbo. A turbo compresses the inlet air. A side effect of compressing air is that the temperature goes up. The inlet air passes through the carbs after it has been compressed (and heated!) by the turbo. So, as the carbs have quite a higher temperature than in the 912, it is not a good idea to feed them hot fuel as well. The combination of heat and fuel lead to an increased change of vapor lock and detonation. Hence the Rotax engineers made a few modifications to the fuel system: 1) The return feed is largely increased. This increases the flow, so the fuel stays a shorter time in the cowling and heat is transfered away. 2) The mechanical fuel pump (a heat source) is eliminated and replaced by cool running electrical pumps, that can remain outside of the hot cowling. 3) By changing the location of the fuel pump the fuel hose routing can be kept much shorter. Think about it: When the Rotax engineers developed the 914 they had already their convenient mechanical fuel pumps on the shelf. They sure must have a good reason to block off the fuel pump connector on the gear housing and change the whole setup. It is not wise to revert back to mechanical pumps, especially since there are no practical problems with the dual electrical pump setup. Hundreds of airplanes are flying happily around with them. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSWBmlAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVK38P/07h/NygULHBFjKMpeKEiQ3s dtg0njdsLgSnpn2DUJK4KNbg/goCnbLiC4kAwZvha+gtrNcRKe1CGay1P91IXwoz CdDTcB/zhX3DeX19QwwlkHiM9IaR9hvkjKT5+Dzld17/vyP9+tAI/E4rIhQZ60iq 5+VwWOKmunl+vB6Ms8WVVRWC5ga09tJ7dzdHlBeUGh5ZaiEbOWKtYkjQg878cKqu iGTiLRCKb74vKlyJhV+xu5SeUO+39o6ujNb5TvmZOVdsZbLgCotwrJRy5IqmB3mI B9Y8uJXwkbMIP0K3OkRvId047xTModdDDSSAuzl/k5a8xDF98kl6SHODy9tz2+7T vHzAUm7T9MJtSBiibz8Wful9MN2Om47cI39Ky6BcTlkjoL1+ChCbzp9doEBAOGpy Si5hr+zqTBrbEK1n0Nj3rwUjLQBGaYeZYR4c9IQD5alIW6xBxnS0MJuB+/TcZRrz 4c7/VGlnNEZL+c/APD4PElTJ364faVcordHiFIwa5TufLOGTkFg2QNuRWqyPmHvQ dHUyl0XR3rEM+7SKF8FhtPY95noh+bb/TmDLAmG075fYtrqPXyqsCTn8vJGXkC7O 19UZ9Gtu+7Jc+BFUzZdpJ3NusUTU/fkoPp14hcqe+JxyKm8Ifod54m1vCoqVqCRd fNVZyipBnEcr9U4NA0Ag =S322 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:56 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions On Oct 11, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > It is not wise to revert back to mechanical pumps, especially since > there are no practical problems with the dual electrical pump setup. > Hundreds of airplanes are flying happily around with them. I recall a conversation years ago with an electrical engineer who was touting the advantages of electrical over mechanical devices. "...with electrical things there is only on mode of failure...w/ mechanical things, all sorts of things can fail..." do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:04 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Alan, To reinforce the point that Frans has made, it's helpful to recognise that what is often referred to as "alternator failure" is actually failure of the rectifier/regulator feeding DC to the 12/14 V electrical system (and in the case of the 914 word according to the Europa circuit diagram, the 2nd electrical fuel pump). Failure of the actual alternator, which has permanent magnets rotating inside the fixed stator, such that both of the 2 independent coils that supply the ignition modules direct failed, would indeed be extremely rare. The point made earlier about bypassing the the master switch to provide a live feed from the battery to the trim switch was a subject of much discussion back in 1996. Ivan Shaw was insistent that in the event of smoke in the cockpit caused by a wiring fault, the immediate action would be to turn off the master switch and land as soon as possible - but the aircraft could be very difficult to control if they were large forces on the elevator because the trim could not be adjusted. Similarly, in later years people have fitted electrical stall warners - and again it would probably be a good idea to have this system working while attempting a sensible forced landing. The risk of either circuit (each protected by a very-low-value fuse) causing a fire during a crash landing I personally believe to be acceptable. Mike Dr Mike Gregory Europa Club Safety Officer -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 11 October 2013 16:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions --> On 10/11/2013 05:11 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > > > Hi Frans. I am getting a bit lost here, I think you are saying if my > Alternator Fails I won't get the spark to keep the engine running, There are mutiple coils in this alternator. Two are used for the ignition, the rest for charging the battery. > I am not sure if this is correct, surely my battery will keep the > power to the ignition modules for a while.? No, the ignition coils are not connected to the battery. > With ref to the mechanical pump I believe some 914 in the world have > been fitted, there is usually a way to get round cooling, maybe a > thermal barrier in the gasket, or water jacket, Why would you go that complicated route if there is a better solution? > The 914 and the 912 I must say I find it hard to believe there is a > huge temperature difference under the cowling, why is it so hot. The 914 has a turbo. A turbo compresses the inlet air. A side effect of compressing air is that the temperature goes up. The inlet air passes through the carbs after it has been compressed (and heated!) by the turbo. So, as the carbs have quite a higher temperature than in the 912, it is not a good idea to feed them hot fuel as well. The combination of heat and fuel lead to an increased change of vapor lock and detonation. Hence the Rotax engineers made a few modifications to the fuel system: 1) The return feed is largely increased. This increases the flow, so the fuel stays a shorter time in the cowling and heat is transfered away. 2) The mechanical fuel pump (a heat source) is eliminated and replaced by cool running electrical pumps, that can remain outside of the hot cowling. 3) By changing the location of the fuel pump the fuel hose routing can be kept much shorter. Think about it: When the Rotax engineers developed the 914 they had already their convenient mechanical fuel pumps on the shelf. They sure must have a good reason to block off the fuel pump connector on the gear housing and change the whole setup. It is not wise to revert back to mechanical pumps, especially since there are no practical problems with the dual electrical pump setup. Hundreds of airplanes are flying happily around with them. Frans ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:11 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions From: "jonathanmilbank" > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan, > > I have been using a Varley Redtop 25 racing battery which is 16AH AGM > (absorbed glass matt). This is virtually identical spec to the Odyssey > PC680 which many people use for a Rotax 912S. It has provided perfect > starting for 6 years. The battery is behind the baggage bay and uses 4 > gauge battery cables. I have never seen more than 14.2 volts system voltage > and on a fully charged battery it is mostly at 13.8 volts. > > Provided you have good connections and big enough cable, I don't think you > will have any problems with a new Rotax 912S, even with the older starter, > as long as the sprag clutch is in good condition. > > Regards > > Brian Davies > Many thanks Brian. An endorsement is exactly what I needed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410345#410345 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:17 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions From: "Alan Carter" Hi All Many thanks for the information given, there was a lot I did not know about the system, many of the points I agree with you all, but some I don't so will have to differ, Sorry Mike but I would go along with Ivan Shaw, by turning the master off. The trim forces from Straight and level to landing are minimal, my trim indicator only move a couple of divisions, stall warning I haven't , all I need is an ASI, next time I fly I will try a landing without touching the trim. See how I get on. How ever the wiring of the fuel pumps., I think think??? both of mine run on the ground with the Alternator Switch in the OFF position, is this standard, ie is the number 2 pump dual supplied by both battery and alternator. Or should it not run Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410349#410349 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:10 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Alan, Perhaps I did not make it clear that it was Ivan's point to insist that the pitch trim should remain live if you had to switch off the master switch, e.g. because of fumes in the cockpit, and he wanted to ensure that you did not have to fight high stick forces while trying to concentrate on landing. There is of course nothing to stop you switching off the trim and any other still live circuits once you are committed to a forced landing and are making the final approach. If you have one pump being fed directly from the alternator and the other from the bus bar, then they will both run when the engine is running regardless of whether the alternator switch is closed or open. You can then turn off the master switch connecting the bus to the battery, and you should find that the pump fed by the alternator remains running while the other stops. This is as close as you can get to independent power supplies for essential services when you have just one battery and one alternator. Regards, Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 11 October 2013 21:21 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions --> Hi All Many thanks for the information given, there was a lot I did not know about the system, many of the points I agree with you all, but some I don't so will have to differ, Sorry Mike but I would go along with Ivan Shaw, by turning the master off. The trim forces from Straight and level to landing are minimal, my trim indicator only move a couple of divisions, stall warning I haven't , all I need is an ASI, next time I fly I will try a landing without touching the trim. See how I get on. How ever the wiring of the fuel pumps., I think think??? both of mine run on the ground with the Alternator Switch in the OFF position, is this standard, ie is the number 2 pump dual supplied by both battery and alternator. Or should it not run Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410349#410349 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:22 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Alan, Back in 2003 I was flying on my own out to Czech Republic, and approaching the border there was nothing but forest from horizon to horizon, and I was thinking what a bad place it would be for the engine to pack up! This thought possibly got to my bladder so I got my pee bottle out from under the left side of my thigh rest and leisurely sorted myself out. When I was all zipped up and strapped in again I looked at the panel to find to my dismay that everything electrical was showing no sign of life! My two electrical pumps immediately sprang to mind and I started a rapid check round the panel. I found that both master and alternator switches were off, having caught my left trouser bottom on the toggles. I switched them back on before there was any squeak from the engine and breathed a very big double sigh of relief! Being a public spirited sort of chap I felt I should own up on this forum to stop anyone else being so dumb and possibly not being so lucky. One of the technical whizzes from the company answered to say that as long as I had wired it to the standard instructions the engine would not stop anyway, and I checked this to be the case on my next flight. I would personally avoid doing any landings out of trim unless you cannot avoid it. You just need some other distraction for things to go seriously pear shaped. Half the ditching deaths in the Uk in the last 22years were actually due to the pilot losing control and effectively crashing, almost certainly because they had suddenly remembered they hadn't got their lifejacket on or their PLB out of the back, or whatever, and forgot about flying the plane. .. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 13:20:39 -0700 "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hi All > Many thanks for the information given, there was a lot I >did not know about the system, many of the points I agree >with you all, but some I don't so will have to differ, > Sorry Mike but I would go along with Ivan Shaw, by >turning the master off. > The trim forces from Straight and level to landing are >minimal, my trim indicator only move a couple of >divisions, stall warning I haven't , all I need is an >ASI, next time I fly I will try a landing without >touching the trim. > See how I get on. > How ever the wiring of the fuel pumps., I think >think??? both of mine run on the ground with the >Alternator Switch in the OFF position, is this standard, >ie is the number 2 pump dual supplied by both battery and >alternator. > Or should it not run > Regards. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410349#410349 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:46 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions From: "Alan Carter" Hi David. You have flown to some wonderful places, Im UK only no longer have that confidence, when i was in my 20s yes I would have. Im no expert on the plane never looked into it, but all the planes I have flown the engine is entirely separate from the aircrafts electrics and you have just confirmed that with Master off and Alternator off and the a pump and spark keeps the engine going, or should do. So the spark is not influenced by either switch, and the pump get it power from either a separate circuit within the Alternator or the battery which will slowly run down. Rotax must say somewhere how long you have on battery and pump only. or maybe not? We know with the Master and Alternator off the engine will run OK. But with a serviceable system how do I check its failure capabilities ?? Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410354#410354 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.