---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/14/13: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:13 AM - Re: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Pete Lawless) 2. 02:37 AM - Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Carter) 3. 03:02 AM - Re: Fan Panel, maybe helpfull to those who are not builders (Alan Carter) 4. 03:08 AM - Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Burrill) 5. 03:37 AM - Re: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Kevin Challis) 6. 03:55 AM - Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Carter) 7. 04:55 AM - Re: {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Pete Lawless) 8. 07:04 AM - IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] (Rowland Carson) 9. 08:47 AM - Re: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] (Brian Davies) 10. 09:23 AM - Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Carter) 11. 09:31 AM - Mine's Pink! (Scudrunner) 12. 09:38 AM - Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Carter) 13. 09:55 AM - FW: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] (Brian Davies) 14. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Brian Davies) 15. 10:22 AM - IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] (Rowland Carson) 16. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks (David Watts) 17. 10:44 AM - First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Manfred Jann) 18. 10:44 AM - Re: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] (Alan Burrill) 19. 11:11 AM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Robert Borger) 20. 11:22 AM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Pete) 21. 11:30 AM - Re: Mine's Pink! (Pete Lawless) 22. 11:47 AM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Pete) 23. 11:51 AM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Fred Klein) 24. 12:13 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Bob Harrison) 25. 12:13 PM - IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] (Alan Carter) 26. 02:15 PM - Re: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] (David Watts) 27. 02:16 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (graeme bird) 28. 02:17 PM - Re: Sub Panels....thanks (Alan Carter) 29. 02:52 PM - Re: Mine's Pink! (spcialeffects) 30. 03:03 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Bob Hitchcock) 31. 03:15 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Karl Heindl) 32. 03:23 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 33. 03:40 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (rob zeelenberg) 34. 06:27 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Ivan Shaw) 35. 07:07 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Michel) 36. 10:57 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (Richard Wheelwright) 37. 11:54 PM - Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic (gtagr) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:06 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Morning Kev I am amazed all that kit must weigh a ton! Be inclined to sell it and replace with a couple of GPS. You would probably have money left over towards a respray. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis Sent: 14 October 2013 05:51 Subject: Re: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Pete I am very poor, I didn't build the plane. The previous owner / builder was very rich and fitted the plane out with ILS, VOR, DME etc. Unfortunately he didn't seem to spend very much on the paint job but I bought it for a good price so I can't moan. Kev ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:10 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: "Alan Carter" Hello All. I am get very confused here, but that's not unusually for me. I have again spoken to my Examiner, he said he is an Instructor/Examiner with over 40 years experience, and he has justs said you can-not do an IMC on a permit aircraft, and if you have done your 15 hours on a Europa the CAA will throw it back at you. You can fly around under the hood in your Europa practising IMC with an instructor but you can not log it towards an IMC rating. He said the Aircraft must have a Private C of A or a Public C of A and you can not even do it on an American Registered Aircraft. He is absolutely sure of himself. What more can I say.!!!, I am beginning to feel that I am making all of this up. So please can anybody out there verify if he is correct or not as I am bewildered as both are adamant they are right. Because if he is not correct, in his facts,( but the sod usually always is correct in his facts) We can all do IMC ratings using our Europa's. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410478#410478 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fan Panel, maybe helpfull to those who are not builders From: "Alan Carter" Hi All. Thanks for your kind words Fred, but I am not doing much flying at the moment , INPORTATANT. I have had a couple of e-mails asking about cutting the hole in the top of the instrument panel. I would not like anybody to damage there aircraft so be careful, your hand will rub again the windscreen when cutting and even a small fragment on your skin will mark the perspecs of the screen. So protect the area with a piece of cardboard , and use a good light to see what you are doing. use a Tool of you choice, but a simple half hack saw blade will do, rub back and forth will slowly penetrate the surface, once through its cut easy. Remember to cut with the saw teeth on the pulling stroke, Remember to keep the blade very shallow angle, as you don't want to cut anything that you can not see on the other side of the panel. Its easy to do ,just a bit slow, If you wanted and felt confident you could loosen and move the whole instrument panel forward an inch or two, but I managed without doing this OK. Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410480#410480 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: Alan Burrill I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. Cannot post an extract on my phone. Alan Burrill Sent from my iPhone > On 14 Oct 2013, at 10:36, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hello All. > I am get very confused here, but that's not unusually for me. > I have again spoken to my Examiner, he said he is an Instructor/Examiner with over 40 years experience, and he has justs said you can-not do an IMC on a permit aircraft, and if you have done your 15 hours on a Europa the CAA will throw it back at you. > You can fly around under the hood in your Europa practising IMC with an instructor but you can not log it towards an IMC rating. > He said the Aircraft must have a Private C of A or a Public C of A > and you can not even do it on an American Registered Aircraft. > He is absolutely sure of himself. What more can I say.!!!, I am beginning to feel that I am making all of this up. > > So please can anybody out there verify if he is correct or not as I am bewildered as both are adamant they are right. > > Because if he is not correct, in his facts,( but the sod usually always is correct in his facts) > We can all do IMC ratings using our Europa's. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410478#410478 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: Kevin Challis It's got 2 GPS's as well! Kev On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:12, "Pete Lawless" wrote: > Morning Kev > > I am amazed all that kit must weigh a ton! Be inclined to sell it and rep lace with a couple of GPS. You would probably have money left over towards a respray. > > Regards > > Pete > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis > Sent: 14 October 2013 05:51 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....t hanks > > Pete > > I am very poor, I didn't build the plane. The previous owner / builder was very rich and fitted the plane out with ILS, VOR, DME etc. Unfortunately he didn't seem to spend very much on the paint job but I bought it for a good p rice so I can't moan. > > Kev > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:02 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: "Alan Carter" Try reading, Ow Yer, OOOPs Google Link Broken. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410485#410485 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:52 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Well no excuse for getting lost then! DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis Sent: 14 October 2013 11:34 Subject: {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks It's got 2 GPS's as well! Kev On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:12, "Pete Lawless" wrote: Morning Kev I am amazed all that kit must weigh a ton! Be inclined to sell it and replace with a couple of GPS. You would probably have money left over towards a respray. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis Sent: 14 October 2013 05:51 Subject: Re: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Pete I am very poor, I didn't build the plane. The previous owner / builder was very rich and fitted the plane out with ILS, VOR, DME etc. Unfortunately he didn't seem to spend very much on the paint job but I bought it for a good price so I can't moan. Kev http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "3d"http:" claiming to be http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "3d"http:" claiming to be http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:41 AM PST US Subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] From: Rowland Carson On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:07, Alan Burrill wrote: > I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. > > Cannot post an extract on my phone. You can see all the AICs at: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html and can choose W 001/2011 from the 2011 section. Here's the bit that Alan refers to pasted in: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 4.4 Operating under a Permit to Fly 4.4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = So, yes, in the UK you can have and pay for instruction in your group-owned Europa, but NOT for a new licence or rating. Thus IF it was a jointly-owned machine, the advice to another poster not to tell the CAA that he trained for his IMC in a Europa would appear to be wise, if he doesn't want the book thrown at him and probably lose his rating. However, section 4.4 applies only to jointly-owned permit types. The section for sole ownership is slightly different and does not exclude training for initial issue of a licence or rating. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 3 Solely-owned non-EASA Aircraft 3.1 Article 259(2) of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) 2009 states that 'If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot, the flight is deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4'. 3.2 The result of this is that a person who owns an aircraft outright and does not have to pay for anything else in relation to the flight is permitted to pay an instructor for training in their private aircraft. Likewise, a person who has free use of an aircraft is also permitted to pay an instructor for training in the aircraft, although this situation usually only arises when a close friend or member of the owner's family wishes to use the aircraft. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The difference in the rules between joint and sole ownership is also made clear in the flowchart at Appendix A of the document, where no conditions are applied to training in sole-owned permit machines. I can see that there is some opportunity for confusion, but it appears that everyone who expressed an opinion on this topic was correct to some degree! in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:18 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] LAA Technical Leaflet 2.09 says Initial Licence or Rating 2. An owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training towards an initial licence or rating in his own LAA aircraft provided he is a 'sole' owner and not part of a group ownership. (Direct family members of the owner's immediate family are also acceptable). 3. The solo part of the PPL syllabus can be carried out in a single seat LAA aircraft as long as the aircraft is similar to that being used for dual instruction, is suitably equipped, and the instructor is satisfied that it is compatible with accepted flight training practices. 4. 'Simulated' instrument training as required by the PPL syllabus, and training towards the IMC or IR(R) rating is acceptable in a LAA aircraft provided it is suitably equipped. 5. Examination, as required by the PPL syllabus, may be carried out in a LAA aircraft, but only if un-remunerated. The aircraft must also be suitably equipped. In order to get a further interpretation of this situation I have asked Jon Cooke the Chairman of the LAA Pilot Coaching scheme to comment further. I will post his reply as soon as it arrives. Brian Davies LAA board member -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 14 October 2013 15:02 Subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] --> On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:07, Alan Burrill wrote: > I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. > > Cannot post an extract on my phone. You can see all the AICs at: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blo gcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html and can choose W 001/2011 from the 2011 section. Here's the bit that Alan refers to pasted in: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 4.4 Operating under a Permit to Fly 4.4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = So, yes, in the UK you can have and pay for instruction in your group-owned Europa, but NOT for a new licence or rating. Thus IF it was a jointly-owned machine, the advice to another poster not to tell the CAA that he trained for his IMC in a Europa would appear to be wise, if he doesn't want the book thrown at him and probably lose his rating. However, section 4.4 applies only to jointly-owned permit types. The section for sole ownership is slightly different and does not exclude training for initial issue of a licence or rating. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 3 Solely-owned non-EASA Aircraft 3.1 Article 259(2) of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) 2009 states that 'If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot, the flight is deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4'. 3.2 The result of this is that a person who owns an aircraft outright and does not have to pay for anything else in relation to the flight is permitted to pay an instructor for training in their private aircraft. Likewise, a person who has free use of an aircraft is also permitted to pay an instructor for training in the aircraft, although this situation usually only arises when a close friend or member of the owner's family wishes to use the aircraft. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The difference in the rules between joint and sole ownership is also made clear in the flowchart at Appendix A of the document, where no conditions are applied to training in sole-owned permit machines. I can see that there is some opportunity for confusion, but it appears that everyone who expressed an opinion on this topic was correct to some degree! in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:09 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: "Alan Carter" Hi. Is this it. I am still not sure, never been good at wording. Under Note. It appears to say to me you can't do any initial rating. Anyone is that correct, just a simple yes or No then I can forget about it. .4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410511#410511 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:52 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Mine's Pink! From: "Scudrunner" ..The monowheel rubber suspension block that is! But I hear black is this season's colour? Can anyone remember the history here - I have an early classic (84) and am rebuilding the monowheel suspension [Embarassed] I do have dampers and the pink block looks to be in good condition (and is supplemented by a 8mm plywood sheet!). Any offers of parts from trigear convertees welcome (based Sussex) Howard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410512#410512 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:02 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: "Alan Carter" Hi, Found it. 1.1 It is often thought that flying training is not permitted in private aircraft, or at least that only a limited amount of training is allowed. In fact, there is no restriction on training in private aircraft, but as with any activity in an aircraft that is normally only used for private recreational purposes there are restrictions on what can be paid1 for in relation to the flight. 1.2 The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work, public transport or commercial air transport. Aircraft that operate under a Certificate of Airworthiness (CofA) and are only maintained to a standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly (hereafter jointly referred to as 'private aircraft') can only be used for private flights. Then it goes on further down to this. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. I never understand the wording of these things, But to me it looks like you can't,, I think I will go along with that, unless someone tells me different.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410513#410513 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:44 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: FW: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] -----Original Message----- From: Brian Davies [mailto:brian.davies@clara.co.uk] Sent: 14 October 2013 16:33 Subject: RE: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] LAA Technical Leaflet 2.09 says Initial Licence or Rating 2. An owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training towards an initial licence or rating in his own LAA aircraft provided he is a 'sole' owner and not part of a group ownership. (Direct family members of the owner's immediate family are also acceptable). 3. The solo part of the PPL syllabus can be carried out in a single seat LAA aircraft as long as the aircraft is similar to that being used for dual instruction, is suitably equipped, and the instructor is satisfied that it is compatible with accepted flight training practices. 4. 'Simulated' instrument training as required by the PPL syllabus, and training towards the IMC or IR(R) rating is acceptable in a LAA aircraft provided it is suitably equipped. 5. Examination, as required by the PPL syllabus, may be carried out in a LAA aircraft, but only if un-remunerated. The aircraft must also be suitably equipped. In order to get a further interpretation of this situation I have asked Jon Cooke the Chairman of the LAA Pilot Coaching scheme to comment further. I will post his reply as soon as it arrives. Brian Davies LAA board member -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 14 October 2013 15:02 Subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] --> On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:07, Alan Burrill wrote: > I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. > > Cannot post an extract on my phone. You can see all the AICs at: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blo gcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html and can choose W 001/2011 from the 2011 section. Here's the bit that Alan refers to pasted in: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 4.4 Operating under a Permit to Fly 4.4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = So, yes, in the UK you can have and pay for instruction in your group-owned Europa, but NOT for a new licence or rating. Thus IF it was a jointly-owned machine, the advice to another poster not to tell the CAA that he trained for his IMC in a Europa would appear to be wise, if he doesn't want the book thrown at him and probably lose his rating. However, section 4.4 applies only to jointly-owned permit types. The section for sole ownership is slightly different and does not exclude training for initial issue of a licence or rating. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 3 Solely-owned non-EASA Aircraft 3.1 Article 259(2) of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) 2009 states that 'If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot, the flight is deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4'. 3.2 The result of this is that a person who owns an aircraft outright and does not have to pay for anything else in relation to the flight is permitted to pay an instructor for training in their private aircraft. Likewise, a person who has free use of an aircraft is also permitted to pay an instructor for training in the aircraft, although this situation usually only arises when a close friend or member of the owner's family wishes to use the aircraft. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The difference in the rules between joint and sole ownership is also made clear in the flowchart at Appendix A of the document, where no conditions are applied to training in sole-owned permit machines. I can see that there is some opportunity for confusion, but it appears that everyone who expressed an opinion on this topic was correct to some degree! in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:37 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Alan, This refers to the rules for paid training in jointly owned aircraft. The use of a permit aircraft for training for an IMCR is permitted. See LAA leaflet TL 2.09. Regards Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 14 October 2013 17:14 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks --> Hi. Is this it. I am still not sure, never been good at wording. Under Note. It appears to say to me you can't do any initial rating. Anyone is that correct, just a simple yes or No then I can forget about it. .4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410511#410511 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:28 AM PST US Subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] From: Rowland Carson On 14 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Alan Carter wrote: > > Hi, Found it. > 1.1 It is often thought that flying training is not permitted in private aircraft, or at least that only a limited amount of training is allowed. In > fact, there is no restriction on training in private aircraft, but as with any activity in an aircraft that is normally only used for private recreational > purposes there are restrictions on what can be paid1 for in relation to the flight. > 1.2 The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work, > public transport or commercial air transport. Aircraft that operate under a Certificate of Airworthiness (CofA) and are only maintained to a > standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly (hereafter jointly referred to as 'private aircraft') can only > be used for private flights. > > Then it goes on further down to this. > > Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The > intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as > short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. > > I never understand the wording of these things, But to me it looks like you can't,, I think I will go along with that, unless someone tells me different.. Alan - the note "further down" refers only to the joint ownership paragraphs (the same note appears twice, first in section 4.3 and then in section 4.4); there is no such note in Section 3. I agree that it's easy to get confused, but careful reading is rewarded by a measure of understanding. Have another look at Annex A (the flowchart). If you are a sole owner you finish up in the central box where NO conditions are stipulated. If the aircraft is in joint ownership you finish up in one of the other boxes which includes Condition A - "Training must not be towards the grant of a licence or a rating in a licence". I'm not sure why this difference is made - perhaps it's to prevent a group-ownership scheme setting up as an unregulated flying school. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:12 AM PST US From: David Watts Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Alan The exclusion to training for initial issue etc applies to jointly owned aircraft as detailed in para 4 and all it's sub paragraphs. The earlier paragraphs (ie para 3) refer to solely owned aircraft, which does allow such training for the owner, close friends and family who do not pay for the aircraft hire. David Watts > On 14 Oct 2013, at 17:35, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hi, Found it. > 1.1 It is often thought that flying training is not permitted in private aircraft, or at least that only a limited amount of training is allowed. In > fact, there is no restriction on training in private aircraft, but as with any activity in an aircraft that is normally only used for private recreational > purposes there are restrictions on what can be paid1 for in relation to the flight. > 1.2 The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work, > public transport or commercial air transport. Aircraft that operate under a Certificate of Airworthiness (CofA) and are only maintained to a > standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly (hereafter jointly referred to as 'private aircraft') can only > be used for private flights. > > Then it goes on further down to this. > > Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The > intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as > short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. > > I never understand the wording of these things, But to me it looks like you can't,, I think I will go along with that, unless someone tells me different.. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410513#410513 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:07 AM PST US From: "Manfred Jann" Subject: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum . I'm happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 - Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a'clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very happy about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. But I don't know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants it separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot.das@kabelmail.de Manfred Jann, Germany ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] From: Alan Burrill Thanks Rowland. I was a bit constrained on an iPhone but looking on a bigger machine I obviously missed the flow diagram and previous section 3 on sole owners. Seems to have cleared up the matter though. Alan On 14 Oct 2013, at 18:21, Rowland Carson wrote: > > On 14 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Alan Carter wrote: > >> >> Hi, Found it. >> 1.1 It is often thought that flying training is not permitted in private aircraft, or at least that only a limited amount of training is allowed. In >> fact, there is no restriction on training in private aircraft, but as with any activity in an aircraft that is normally only used for private recreational >> purposes there are restrictions on what can be paid1 for in relation to the flight. >> 1.2 The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work, >> public transport or commercial air transport. Aircraft that operate under a Certificate of Airworthiness (CofA) and are only maintained to a >> standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly (hereafter jointly referred to as 'private aircraft') can only >> be used for private flights. >> >> Then it goes on further down to this. >> >> Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The >> intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as >> short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. >> >> I never understand the wording of these things, But to me it looks like you can't,, I think I will go along with that, unless someone tells me different.. > > Alan - the note "further down" refers only to the joint ownership paragraphs (the same note appears twice, first in section 4.3 and then in section 4.4); there is no such note in Section 3. I agree that it's easy to get confused, but careful reading is rewarded by a measure of understanding. > > Have another look at Annex A (the flowchart). If you are a sole owner you finish up in the central box where NO conditions are stipulated. If the aircraft is in joint ownership you finish up in one of the other boxes which includes Condition A - "Training must not be towards the grant of a licence or a rating in a licence". > > I'm not sure why this difference is made - perhaps it's to prevent a group-ownership scheme setting up as an unregulated flying school. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:31 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: Robert Borger Manfred, First - CONGRATULATIONS!! Next, We would love to hear your build story. Please consider posting your story with pictures on EuropaOwners.org. Or, consider presenting it as a series of articles for the Europa Flyer, the official magazine of the Europa Club. I'm sure there are folks who could assist you in posting to Europa Owners if you wish to do that. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Oct 14, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Manfred Jann wrote: Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum =85 I=92m happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 ' Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a=92clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very happy about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. But I don=92t know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants it separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot.das@kabelmail.de Manfred Jann, Germany ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: Pete Oops, and congrats!!! Pete :) > On Oct 14, 2013, at 1:41 PM, "Manfred Jann" wrot e: > > Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum > > I=99m happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 =93 Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a=99 clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very hap py about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. > I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. > But I don=99t know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants i t separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot. das@kabelmail.de > Manfred Jann, Germany > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:14 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mine's Pink! Hi Howard Red was replaced with black while I was building #109. Can't exactly remember why but I think the red had the wrong sort of elasticity or something. I also think it was a free upgrade. My red one got cut in 2 on a diagonal and made a fine pair of chocks with a rope though the holes. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scudrunner Sent: 14 October 2013 17:30 Subject: Europa-List: Mine's Pink! ..The monowheel rubber suspension block that is! But I hear black is this season's colour? Can anyone remember the history here - I have an early classic (84) and am rebuilding the monowheel suspension [Embarassed] I do have dampers and the pink block looks to be in good condition (and is supplemented by a 8mm plywood sheet!). Any offers of parts from trigear convertees welcome (based Sussex) Howard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410512#410512 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: Pete I'd love to see the whole story! Pics and all! Cheers, Pete :-) > On Oct 14, 2013, at 1:41 PM, "Manfred Jann" wrot e: > > Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum > > I=99m happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 =93 Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a=99 clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very hap py about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. > I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. > But I don=99t know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants i t separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot. das@kabelmail.de > Manfred Jann, Germany > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:11 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Manfred...I second everything which Robert writes below...and if your > detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications ...is available in email format, by all means send me a copy directly. Is yours the DE Europa I've heard about with the wing tanks? Congratulations, Fred On Oct 14, 2013, at 10:57 AM, Robert Borger wrote: > Manfred, > > First - CONGRATULATIONS!! > > Next, We would love to hear your build story. Please consider posting your story with pictures on EuropaOwners.org. > > Or, consider presenting it as a series of articles for the Europa Flyer, the official magazine of the Europa Club. > > I'm sure there are folks who could assist you in posting to Europa Owners if you wish to do that. > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:31 PM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic WELL DONE MANFRED < Congratulations ......now you will find it is real. Best regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Kit 337 ....1000 hours plus. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Manfred Jann Sent: 14 October 2013 18:41 Subject: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum . I'm happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 - Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a'clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very happy about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. But I don't know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants it separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot.das@kabelmail.de Manfred Jann, Germany ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:31 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] From: "Alan Carter" Hi Roland ,Brian and al. Well I think I've got it. All a bit crazy, but as I understand it you can do an IMC rating on a Europa a Permit Aircraft, Provided you are the solo owner. And ????? it has all the appropriate radio gear, not a GPS-vor ete,. But if Me and my mate own the plane we can not do the IMC rating on our permit Europa. Is that Right, Im going to have fun with my examiner, Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410534#410534 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:32 PM PST US From: David Watts Subject: Re: Europa-List: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] Alan It's not rocket science, even my grandchildren understood it when I ran it past them. If you are the sole owner you can train. If you own as a group you can't, thus avoiding the possibility of forming a sham group around a permit aircraft to all be able to learn to fly on the cheap. If all else fails, read the AIC slowly and methodically, including the paragraph numbers, and all will become clear. David Watts > On 14 Oct 2013, at 20:06, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hi Roland ,Brian and al. > Well I think I've got it. > All a bit crazy, but as I understand it you can do an IMC rating on a Europa a Permit Aircraft, Provided you are the solo owner. > And ????? it has all the appropriate radio gear, not a GPS-vor ete,. > But if Me and my mate own the plane we can not do the IMC rating on our permit Europa. > > Is that Right, > > Im going to have fun with my examiner, > Regards. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410534#410534 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:11 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: "graeme bird" Brilliant, congratulations, please post photos. I am in the second year with mine now (#178 I think) and its been great, still messing with it though. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410541#410541 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:47 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks From: "Alan Carter" David. I have got it, Including owner , and family ete. I will relay this information, many thanks Alan. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410543#410543 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:00 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mine's Pink! From: "spcialeffects" In 84?? When was the first kit delivered? I have kit 165 and my block is red but the centre holes were pre damper mod so the holes are too small. I just bought a new block and they sent a black one. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410551#410551 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: Bob Hitchcock Well done! On 14 Oct 2013, at 18:41, "Manfred Jann" wrote: > Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum > > I=99m happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 =93 Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a=99 clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very hap py about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. > I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. > But I don=99t know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants i t separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot. das@kabelmail.de > Manfred Jann, Germany > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:16 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Manfred=2C Many congratulations. Is 17 years a record ?The best place to publish your story is in the 'Europa Flyer'. Best regards=2C Karl From: wemjot.das@kabelmail.de Subject: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242=2C Classic =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Hallo=2C to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this=0A forum =85=0A =0A =0A =0A I=92m happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 ' Classic=0A has successfully reached the sky few days ago=2C on 08. Oct.=2C at 12:02=0A a=92clock local time=2C at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 1 7=0A years building on it. My instructor and test pilot=2C C. Peter Vajen=2C wa s=0A very happy about the workmanship=2C the performance and flight characterist ics. =0A =0A I have prepared a detailed report of this first=0A flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the =0A many modifications I did. =0A =0A But I don=92t know whether somebody is interested=0A on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum =2C or=0A somebody wants it separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as =0A follows: wemjot.das@kabelmail.de =0A =0A Manfred Jann=2C Germany=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:10 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Manfred=0AIs this the Europa I saw under construction many years ago with t he outriggers =0Aretracting into the oputer wing panels? You will remember Norbert Hoffmann I'm sure.=0AGlad to hear you have flown at last. I hope yo u still have enough years left to enjoy it=0A=0A=C2-Always interesting to hear stories like this.=0AFly safe and vielen dank!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0A From: Manfred Jann =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 14 October 2013, 18:41=0ASubject: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic=0A =0A =0A=0A =0AHallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this=0Aforum=C2 - =0A=C2-=0AI=99m happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 2 42 =93 Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02=0Aa=99clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in N orth GERMANY- after 17=0Ayears building on it.=C2- My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was=0Avery happy about the workmanship, the perform ance and flight characteristics. =0AI have prepared a detailed report of th is first=0Aflight and the whole story about my time consuming building proc ess and the=0Amany modifications I did. =0ABut I don=99t know whether somebody is interested=0Aon this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or=0Asomebody wants it separately by E-Mail dire ctly from me?? My E-Mail is as=0Afollows:=C2-=C2- wemjot.das@kabelmail. ==== ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: rob zeelenberg Gefeliciteerd . Gratuliere . Congratulations great job Well done we all kno w the effort it takes to finish THE project .. have fun and a lot off flying .. Regards #157 classic PH-POP Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone > Op 14 okt. 2013 om 19:41 heeft "Manfred Jann" he t volgende geschreven: > > Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum > > I=99m happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 =93 Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a=99 clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very hap py about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. > I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. > But I don=99t know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants i t separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot. das@kabelmail.de > Manfred Jann, Germany > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:49 PM PST US From: "Ivan Shaw" Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Manfred, Congratulations on your first flight, I'm sure we would all like to hear your story. Regards Ivan From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Manfred Jann Sent: 14 October 2013 18:41 Subject: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum . I'm happy to announce that my EUROPA No. 242 - Classic has successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 a'clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter Vajen, was very happy about the workmanship, the performance and flight characteristics. I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole story about my time consuming building process and the many modifications I did. But I don't know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody wants it separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as follows: wemjot.das@kabelmail.de Manfred Jann, Germany ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:55 PM PST US From: Michel Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic Hello Manfred Congratulations and welcome in the Europa birds community Michel AUVRAY Builder 145 On 14/10/2013 19:41, Manfred Jann wrote: > > Hallo, to the group of all EUROPA enthusiasts on this forum ... > > I'm happy to announce that my */EUROPA No. 242 -- Classic/* has > successfully reached the sky few days ago, on 08. Oct., at 12:02 > a'clock local time, at the airport of Luebeck in North GERMANY- after > 17 years building on it. My instructor and test pilot, C. Peter > Vajen, was very happy about the workmanship, the performance and > flight characteristics. > > I have prepared a detailed report of this first flight and the whole > story about my time consuming building process and the many > modifications I did. > > But I don't know whether somebody is interested on this? So let me > know whether I should put the whole story on this forum, or somebody > wants it separately by E-Mail directly from me?? My E-Mail is as > follows: wemjot.das@kabelmail.de > > Manfred Jann, Germany > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:35 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: "Richard Wheelwright" Congratulation and well done!!! I also would love tor reed about you project. Have fun -------- Richard Wheelwright G-IRPW First Flight 24th July 2013 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410583#410583 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:47 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: First flight of my EUROPA 242, Classic From: "gtagr" Congratulations Manfred! A great achievement, I look forward to reading about it sometime. Clive Sutton, kit 317 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410585#410585 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.