---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/21/13: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:28 AM - Re: 914 Fuel Flow Indicators (David Joyce) 2. 02:08 AM - Re: 914 Fuel Flow Indicators (DAVID JOYCE) 3. 02:52 AM - Re: Re: Battery Questions (Frans Veldman) 4. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: Battery Questions (David Joyce) 5. 05:27 AM - aileron and flap close outs (William Daniell) 6. 05:43 AM - Re: 914 Fuel Flow Indicators (h&jeuropa) 7. 06:03 AM - Re: aileron and flap close outs (Nigel Graham) 8. 06:36 AM - Re: aileron and flap close outs (Nigel Graham) 9. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Battery Questions (Fred Klein) 10. 01:27 PM - Re: aileron and flap close outs (Robert Borger) 11. 01:46 PM - Re: aileron and flap close outs (Fred Klein) 12. 01:58 PM - Re: aileron and flap close outs (Fred Klein) 13. 02:51 PM - Re: aileron and flap close outs (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 14. 03:18 PM - Rotax TCU software (Greg Fuchs) 15. 03:21 PM - Firewall Forward (Greg Fuchs) 16. 03:23 PM - Re: aileron and flap close outs (Bob Harrison) 17. 03:51 PM - =?windows-1252?Q?MGL_Avionics_Primary_Flight_Display_=85=2Eis_an?= =?windows-1252?Q?yone_using_them? (Tony Renshaw) 18. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Battery Questions (Kevin Klinefelter) 19. 06:27 PM - Re: MOD 78 (djaflyact) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:45 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Flow Indicators Tony, if it really is just a fuel flow instrument you want the FS450 with 2 Floscan transducers is or at least was the best, but I would now go for an engine monitoring system which includes fuel flow rather than a lot of seperate instruments. An EIS will tell you as soon as anything departs from your preset norms, rather than you having to keep looking at lots of dials and potentially missing that plane on a converging course. That is to say that you have the chance of designing your panel so as to minimize the time you need to spend looking at it Regards, David Joyce, G - XSDJ On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 07:39:10 +1100 Tony Renshaw wrote: > > > Gidday, > Could I please request input of the preferred brands of >Fuel Flow Indicators currently in favour that cope well >with a second transducer in calculating the 914 usage? I >am working on my panel layout and it would be handy to >tighten up in my thinking what is the best option. >Thanks. > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > > Sent from my iPad > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:39 AM PST US From: DAVID JOYCE Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Flow Indicators Dynon use "Cube"=0A-=0Ahope this helps?=0A-=0Argds=0AThe other one=0A =0ASent to you from David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A =0A=0A________ ________________________=0A From: GRAHAM SINGLETON =0ATo: "europa-list@matronics.com" =0AS ent: Sunday, 20 October 2013, 22:31=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Fl ow Indicators=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Tony=0Abest flow transducers are Floscan, you will need two. Sadly they aint't cheap!=0AIf you can find a marine or auto motive equivalent they will be cheaper. Dynon use an equivalen but can't re member what its called, someone will?=0AGraham=0Abtw hope the forest fires don't bother you.=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Ton y Renshaw =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASen t: Sunday, 20 October 2013, 21:39=0ASubject: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Flow Ind haw268@gmail.com>=0A=0AGidday,=0ACould I please request input of the prefer red brands of Fuel Flow Indicators currently in favour that cope well with a second transducer in calculating the 914 usage? I am working on my panel layout and it would be handy to tighten up in my thinking what is the best option. Thanks.=0ARegards=0ATony Renshaw=0A=0A=0ASent from my iPad http://w ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.sp; - - - - - - List Contribution Web Site -=0A_; - - - - - - - - - - &nb://www.matronics.com/contribution"=0A========0A=0A =================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:17 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery Questions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/20/2013 04:59 PM, David Joyce wrote: > Creighton, If you look at the Odyssey technical manual for the p680 > you will find they give 8 hrs for a 2amp discharge rate and 5hrs > for the 3amp discharge. This is for optimum conditions: 1) Perfect temperature 2) Perfect charge state 3) Fresh battery In reality you can't count on the advertised capacity. 1) In cold weather the battery capacity can easily be 50% of the advertised capacity. Elevated temperatures (like under the cowling) are detrimental as well. 2) A full charge van only be obtained when charging with at least 14.5 Volts. My experience with the Rotax "rectifier" is that it tapers of at around 13.7 Volts. This is good for battery life, but it means you will roughly only get 70% of the capacity. Furthermore, the startup sequence can consume quit some capacity, and it takes a while to recharge this loss. If you get the engine failure soon after the take off, the recharging might not have been completed. Last but not least quite some capacity can get lost between the time of the alternator failure and the pilot taking appropriate action. If a "low voltage" warning is your first sign of trouble, it means you have trouble indeed because the battery has already given away most of its precious amp-hours. 3) Batteries age. Some people keep the battery for 4 years or longer. Much of the capacity is gone by then, but you won't notice a thing until you really need it. Voltage does not sag due to aging, and starting will remain as usual. As soon as starting capacity is noticably going down, you have lost about 90% of the capacity. It might be a good thing to measure the capacity of the battery once a year. Put on the fuel pump and a few other necessities, and measure how much time it takes before you hit 11 Volts. Note that such a run down test is bad for the battery but if you do that only once a year it doesn't matter too much. > Perhaps what you say applies to ordinary lead acd batteries but not > to the superior technology of the Odyssey. It is still a lead acid battery and all the physics apply to it nevertheless. Anyway, I wouldn't count on an advertised capacity; I would land as soon as possible if the battery is the only current source to keep the fuel pump going. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSZPjnAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVORoQAM9vblyulZSIhauajmFkYmCA ZMZL/E6AaTFy7rTzRMEwTNQ8GLySLP0aqezJHuF220ftgzEgHx6qfKNdhZkoJJu2 TNzwc3tuJSKTA3N8eqgjWeH9nqXxpy+rbIImtHMfvgttXlXQo3j2DY0mAztMDxT6 6wNdP1q7gVShozeG6ximBusF8ssriMfSsQ7gswmqzEOMf/vL+NSA1pZG8rqGmKNw bEPxN8XKvnb1mfWAZekTnxeN10LJjd00zxU9mdbSyACBvpQNnqvDlvhehpqO8nDY dESn/M9n4qBBOLXGW1ujtCNA+2ngSWFlbwyS+/IheRjAFDKQZtlEx3bDaREfXTP+ 2j2nc08x3N3u29plZS9adCHJ3mL2xYWmG1PNGC54lXU96S7tJcqe4UksNvhUKYqW F4016X4LI8B9cQ6R6DpXMrHPujUhAb80+UQCmhyIrt2Fo5EKhpNUQmnl+d0wpyRA eLSHC0qraMdGv2ubV63AS5zPRRMC1rnkPYepK8lRiz14GFZ7WhCaVeyARHyjNYKW GarbheeKqFsvxjYEjr/pWd/DgPapx66xtoMoofNstMB4r6FEQ7d7B1/W/H89vM3M YM/oYlk4Z/Xh24vDK8Up4esn4Jm3KC7b4y3sFOSUfVK5q4H64PTzOxqTO0I5/uFy IeOsp5hG7Mq++ST2cwHX =bNaj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:10 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery Questions Frans, As always there is much in what you say, but an Odyssey is a gas recombinant lead acid battery and has many characteristics quite different from conventional lead acid batteries, such as the ability to withstand many cycles of deep discharge, to have a significantly longer life, to work normally at very cold temperatures and more specifically to charge to 97% on a voltage of just 13.5v and to retain 80% of its rated capacity until the end of its useful life. None of that of course makes it a good idea to be in the habit of flying around assuming that it will keep the pumps going for hours! Regards, David On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:50:31 +0200 Frans Veldman wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 10/20/2013 04:59 PM, David Joyce wrote: > >> Creighton, If you look at the Odyssey technical manual >>for the p680 >> you will find they give 8 hrs for a 2amp discharge rate >>and 5hrs >> for the 3amp discharge. > > This is for optimum conditions: > 1) Perfect temperature > 2) Perfect charge state > 3) Fresh battery > > In reality you can't count on the advertised capacity. > 1) In cold weather the battery capacity can easily be >50% of the > advertised capacity. Elevated temperatures (like under >the cowling) > are detrimental as well. > 2) A full charge van only be obtained when charging with >at least 14.5 > Volts. My experience with the Rotax "rectifier" is that >it tapers of > at around 13.7 Volts. This is good for battery life, but >it means you > will roughly only get 70% of the capacity. >Furthermore, the startup sequence can consume quit some >capacity, and > it takes a while to recharge this loss. If you get the >engine failure > soon after the take off, the recharging might not have >been completed. > Last but not least quite some capacity can get lost >between the time > of the alternator failure and the pilot taking >appropriate action. If > a "low voltage" warning is your first sign of trouble, >it means you > have trouble indeed because the battery has already >given away most of > its precious amp-hours. > 3) Batteries age. Some people keep the battery for 4 >years or longer. > Much of the capacity is gone by then, but you won't >notice a thing > until you really need it. Voltage does not sag due to >aging, and > starting will remain as usual. As soon as starting >capacity is > noticably going down, you have lost about 90% of the >capacity. > > It might be a good thing to measure the capacity of the >battery once a > year. Put on the fuel pump and a few other necessities, >and measure > how much time it takes before you hit 11 Volts. > Note that such a run down test is bad for the battery >but if you do > that only once a year it doesn't matter too much. > >> Perhaps what you say applies to ordinary lead acd >>batteries but not >> to the superior technology of the Odyssey. > > It is still a lead acid battery and all the physics >apply to it > nevertheless. > > Anyway, I wouldn't count on an advertised capacity; I >would land as > soon as possible if the battery is the only current >source to keep the > fuel pump going. > >Frans > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSZPjnAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVORoQAM9vblyulZSIhauajmFkYmCA > ZMZL/E6AaTFy7rTzRMEwTNQ8GLySLP0aqezJHuF220ftgzEgHx6qfKNdhZkoJJu2 > TNzwc3tuJSKTA3N8eqgjWeH9nqXxpy+rbIImtHMfvgttXlXQo3j2DY0mAztMDxT6 > 6wNdP1q7gVShozeG6ximBusF8ssriMfSsQ7gswmqzEOMf/vL+NSA1pZG8rqGmKNw > bEPxN8XKvnb1mfWAZekTnxeN10LJjd00zxU9mdbSyACBvpQNnqvDlvhehpqO8nDY > dESn/M9n4qBBOLXGW1ujtCNA+2ngSWFlbwyS+/IheRjAFDKQZtlEx3bDaREfXTP+ > 2j2nc08x3N3u29plZS9adCHJ3mL2xYWmG1PNGC54lXU96S7tJcqe4UksNvhUKYqW >F4016X4LI8B9cQ6R6DpXMrHPujUhAb80+UQCmhyIrt2Fo5EKhpNUQmnl+d0wpyRA > eLSHC0qraMdGv2ubV63AS5zPRRMC1rnkPYepK8lRiz14GFZ7WhCaVeyARHyjNYKW > GarbheeKqFsvxjYEjr/pWd/DgPapx66xtoMoofNstMB4r6FEQ7d7B1/W/H89vM3M > YM/oYlk4Z/Xh24vDK8Up4esn4Jm3KC7b4y3sFOSUfVK5q4H64PTzOxqTO0I5/uFy > IeOsp5hG7Mq++ST2cwHX > =bNaj > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:33 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs Has anyone filled these? Is this the general practice? I am thinking that the =9Chollow=9D area of the close out should be filled with something light like blue foam. Will ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:21 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 914 Fuel Flow Indicators From: "h&jeuropa" The "cube" is made by EI. All the EFIS and engine monitor manufacturers use it now instead of FloScan transducers. As suggested above, since you're just starting on your panel, consider a EFIS with full engine monitoring. We have two GRT Sport EFIS and a GRT EIS which really is the interface to the EFIS. Works great! Jim & Heather N241BW Mono 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410992#410992 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:10 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs I'm not sure if its general practice but I did it (and the ailerons). Make for a neat end with a very clean gap and eliminates the eddies. I just tapped the flap end-on to the prepared foam to print the exact profile before cutting - easy. Nigel On 21/10/2013 13:26, William Daniell wrote: > > Has anyone filled these? Is this the general practice? > > I am thinking that the hollow area of the close out should be filled > with something light like blue foam. > > Will > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:50 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs I'm not sure if its general practice but I did it to both the flaps and ailerons. Makes for a neat end with a very clean gap and eliminates the eddies. I just tapped the flap end-on to the prepared foam to print the exact profile before cutting - easy. Nigel On 21/10/2013 13:26, William Daniell wrote: > > Has anyone filled these? Is this the general practice? > > I am thinking that the hollow area of the close out should be filled > with something light like blue foam. > > Will > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery Questions From: Fred Klein This is an issue I've spent a lot of time on recently as I endeavor to ensure safe flight following an alternator failure in my totally electrically dependent MPEFI engine. Much of that time has been spent on the AeroElectric-list @ matronics which I've found to be an excellent source of information...particularly for one who is an electrical neophyte. One of the things I've learned is that a battery's (available) cranking power says nothing about it's ability to provide sustained power when there's a significant load. Don't assume that just because it could start the engine it has an ample reserve of amps to be drawn upon. In my case, the total draw of fuel pump, ECU, fuel injectors, and coils is between 10 and 11 amps...add to that the draw for minimal components on an endurance bus (intercom, xpndr, some minimal cockpit lighting, etc.). At this point as I continue to refine a basic circuitry diagram, among other things, I will have 2 Odyssey 680s wired as one, and will replace one at some interval (either annually, bi-annually, or at some interval as experience dictates) in order to raise the level of probability that alternator failure will be a low pucker factor event. ...on this misty morning, a pair of bald eagles taunt me over the sea beyond my kitchen window, Fred ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs From: Robert Borger Will, FWIW, I did as Graham and filled the ends of the flaps, ailerons and closeouts with foam, lightweight filler & a layer of glass. Don't know that it does much aerodynamically, but I think it looks better. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Oct 21, 2013, at 7:26 AM, William Daniell wrote: Has anyone filled these? Is this the general practice? I am thinking that the =93hollow=94 area of the close out should be filled with something light like blue foam. Will ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:25 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs Will...Ditto...Fred On Oct 21, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > FWIW, I did as Graham and filled the ends of the flaps, ailerons and closeouts with foam, lightweight filler & a layer of glass. Don't know that it does much aerodynamically, but I think it looks better. > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:22 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs On Oct 21, 2013, at 5:26 AM, William Daniell wrote: > Has anyone filled these? Will...when I filled mine, I formed a guide for the flap drive pin...Fred ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:38 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs That's what you need for one man rigging. Works too.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0A From: Fred Klein =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 21 October 2013, 21: 57=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A =0AOn Oct 21, 2013, at 5:26 AM, William Daniell wrote:=0A=0AHas anyone fill ed these? -=0A=0AWill...when I filled mine, I -formed a guide for the f lap drive pin...Fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:52 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: Europa-List: Rotax TCU software To Forum, I have searched, but so far have not been able to find the software for the Rotax914 TCU part# 966 470. Could someone please forward it to me in email? It also requires a dongle, and I have heard of someone having success with a straight-thru cable, so I will start there unless redirected.. Thanks, Greg A050 Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:44 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: Europa-List: Firewall Forward I forgot to mention, If anyone is parting out a kit and has a Firewall forward for the XS model and 914 engine, please let me know. Thankyou, GregA050 Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:21 PM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs Hi! Will. I actually included a tapered guide tube to receive the flap drive shaft so it engages on the drive pin when doing self assembly rigging And I recall that I included some backing foam within the construction and arranged for the close out to fit close to the fuselage but it needs fairing into match the wing to fuselage radius when the flaps are in retracted position. There is photo on the site which John Cliff runs.:- http://www.users.waitrose.com/~jcliff/BobH/FlapCov/Flapcovs.htm Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: 21 October 2013 13:27 Subject: Europa-List: aileron and flap close outs Has anyone filled these? Is this the general practice? I am thinking that the =9Chollow=9D area of the close out should be filled with something light like blue foam. Will ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:08 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: =?windows-1252?Q?MGL_Avionics_Primary_Flight_Display_=85=2Eis_an?= =?windows-1252?Q?yone_using_them? Gidday, MGL Avionics have been around a while now, and I am wondering if anyone has chosen them over Dynon or GRT, or another EFIS manufacturer of favour who's name escapes me? They have a new 8.5 and 10.4" touchscreen, high resolution display, but I believe brightness is probably the most important thing. I do know that their operating system allows a significant amount of presentation modifying which might suit some builders whilst it can also lead to potential instability problems when compared with a tried and locked down operating system. Any input much appreciated. Regards Tony Renshaw ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:16 PM PST US From: Kevin Klinefelter Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery Questions Atta Boy Fred, I went with a second alternator on the 914 and one PC680. I have our Subaru Legacy fitted with a PC680, so when I pull the battery every two years out of the Europa, it goes in the car for two years. Just about the time the car seems to crank a little slower in cold weather, it's two years are up. Kevin On Oct 21, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Fred Klein wrote: > > This is an issue I've spent a lot of time on recently as I endeavor to ensure safe flight following an alternator failure in my totally electrically dependent MPEFI engine. Much of that time has been spent on the AeroElectric-list @ matronics which I've found to be an excellent source of information...particularly for one who is an electrical neophyte. > > One of the things I've learned is that a battery's (available) cranking power says nothing about it's ability to provide sustained power when there's a significant load. Don't assume that just because it could start the engine it has an ample reserve of amps to be drawn upon. > > In my case, the total draw of fuel pump, ECU, fuel injectors, and coils is between 10 and 11 amps...add to that the draw for minimal components on an endurance bus (intercom, xpndr, some minimal cockpit lighting, etc.). > > At this point as I continue to refine a basic circuitry diagram, among other things, I will have 2 Odyssey 680s wired as one, and will replace one at some interval (either annually, bi-annually, or at some interval as experience dictates) in order to raise the level of probability that alternator failure will be a low pucker factor event. > > ...on this misty morning, a pair of bald eagles taunt me over the sea beyond my kitchen window, > > Fred > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:19 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: MOD 78 From: "djaflyact" Update on Mod 78. Taking my time and being careful makes this go smoothly so far. I did not intend to grind today, but ended up completing about 1/8th of the dirty stinkings job. So far, so good. Dave A227 Motorglider 550 Hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411045#411045 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/grinding_progress_846.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/grinding_setup_982.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.