Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:56 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount ()
2. 02:22 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (Bob Harrison)
3. 02:50 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
4. 03:12 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Bob Harrison)
5. 03:48 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (craig)
6. 04:06 AM - Re: Cockit ventilation (Richard Lamprey)
7. 04:12 AM - Re: Cockit ventilation (Richard Lamprey)
8. 04:13 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Frans Veldman)
9. 04:27 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (David Joyce)
10. 04:44 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (David Joyce)
11. 04:48 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (Pete)
12. 04:54 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Bob Harrison)
13. 04:58 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (Bob Harrison)
14. 05:18 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (Kingsley Hurst)
15. 05:44 AM - Re: Pip pin logic (Pete)
16. 08:40 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Fred Klein)
17. 09:04 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Fred Klein)
18. 09:25 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Pete)
19. 09:56 AM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Fred Klein)
20. 01:25 PM - Re: Pip pin logic (Andrew Sarangan)
21. 01:55 PM - Re: Seatbelt mount ()
22. 01:56 PM - Re: Seatbelt mount ()
23. 03:20 PM - Re: Seatbelt mount (Fred Klein)
24. 08:35 PM - Some nice NZ scenery (Rob Waters)
25. 09:11 PM - Re: Some nice NZ scenery (Andrew Sarangan)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
I wasn=92t real keen on altering the mounting point if there was an
alternative and it looks like Fred=92s put a lot of thought into his
alternative. This seem to achieve the same result without changing the
mounting point. What material have you used to build the extension
blocks and how much higher than the head rest are they?
Mark
From: Fred Klein
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
On Oct 26, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Bob Harrison wrote:
I have at some time seen an arrangement with a hinged block on top of
the existing seat back which ensures that the potential for any spine
compressive forces is removed. However It would need extensive load
testing and need to be very resilient so I=92ve never done anything
further. It would also need the length of the shoulder straps to be much
longer .
Mark...as Bob mentions the standard build allows for spinal compression
in the event of a hard landing (or worse). I made some hinged block
risers as Bob describes; the hinge serves to allow the top of the seat
back to be used as a transition seat when entering or exiting the
aircraft. By no means did I conduct an "extensive load testing" program;
I did however, simulate a 15G load on the shoulder straps in the
appropriate direction. I claim 15G on the basis of an assumption of 100
# upper body weight which could be imposed on the shoulder straps in the
event that the body were restrained from moving forward. The shoulder
strap mounting point did not change, so whatever stresses such an event
would cause will be handled by the airframe as designed. Suprisingly,
the stock shoulder strap length still serves.
...no guarantees...
Fred
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi! Andrew,
I don't profess to be an authorised person to pass a professional comment
but since often I do ......!
It is an established fact that the wings fail forward which means that the
starboard spa tip will tend to want to be loaded towards leaving the port
pin AFT taking the metal socket with it off the port spa. Without the pip
pin the only restraint will be the CUFF which is wrapped round both spa's in
their centre portion and the socket bonded to the aft of the Port spa . So
an additional restraint on the starboard spa tip to keep it clamped to the
aft side of the Port spa when rigged is an obvious bonus.
( Just in passing it would be of prime interest as to the state of all these
items on the William Mills catastrophe aircraft? And surely the
investigators would do us all a big favour to circulate such fine detail for
our consumption?)
However to improve on the pip pin being used for this purpose I think would
need a pin threaded for a nut to be tightened and if you can develop a way
of access to a fully assembled aircraft for applying a bolt and nut I would
be pleased to hear of it ! In the meantime the pip ball rules!
Best regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan
Sent: 27 October 2013 03:57
Subject: Europa-List: Pip pin logic
I am hoping someone can help me understand the logic behind the spar pip
pin. According to a posting by Neville Eyre some time back, the pin is
important for preventing the spar tang from migrating aft and jamming the
aileron crank. This makes sense, especially given how close the spar is to
the cranks. However, in my limited experience, I have only seen pins used
for shear stresses, not longitudinal stress.
The latter would mean the ball at the end the pin has to be load bearing.
This seems a bit odd to me, but I am sure there must be a logic behind this
setup. I am hoping someone can shed some light on this for me.
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
Bob=0AI can verify that occasionally such drastic incidents are surviveable
. I can also confirm that compression fractures of the spine do result, so
I am very impressed with Fred Klein's solution. =0AMy own conclusion is tha
t unless one's training is so good that one can guarantee not having an acc
idental spin, (which I can not!) for me a Long EZ would be a more forgiving
airplane. I flew several EZs for 15 years, when I started flying Europa's
I soon realised that EZs may well make one overconfident. I have spun many
airplanes and gliders, as "good practice/training?" trouble with spin recov
ery is you end up going straight down at high speed halfway through the rec
overy.=0AEven so, all airplanes bite if not respected at all times. IOW don
't push your airplane out of it's comfort zone!=0ABottom line is most of us
don't fly enough to be always ahead of the airplane.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: Bob Harrison <ptag.dev@tiscali
.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 27 October 2013, 0
:18=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount=0A =0A=0A=0AHi! Mark,=0AI ha
ve for some time been aware of this issue and possible compression of the s
pine from the harness location of the Europa . =0AI have over 1000 hours wi
th the harness all as standard .=C2- Perhaps such a drastic incident woul
d be likely unsurvivable anyway.=0AHowever I have at some time seen an arra
ngement with a hinged block on top of the existing seat back which ensures
that the potential for any spine compressive forces =C2-is removed.=C2-
=C2-However It would need extensive load testing and need to be very res
ilient so I=99ve never done anything further. It would also need the
length of the shoulder straps to be much longer .=0ARegards=0ABob Harrison
G-PTAG=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner
-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of markandrhonda@harveyfarm.ne
t.au=0ASent: 26 October 2013 22:22=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASubjec
t: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount=0A=C2-=0AHi,=0A=C2-=0AAt the beginning o
f the year I purchased a Europa XS Tri Gear about 60% completed project.=C2
- I=99ve been reading your postings which have been helping me with
my project.=C2- I=99ve been reading somewhere about the rear mount
ing point for the seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering
what the thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of th
e cockpit.=0A=C2-=0AHas anyone done this before?=C2- I was wondering wh
at your thoughts were, weather it would be worth the extra work or would it
just be a waste of time?=0A=C2-=0AMark =0AKit 451 (Australia)=0A=C2-
=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Ahttp:
//forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=C2-=0A_
-========================
=============
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi! Graham,
Thanks for your very valued input from your awful experience. I also am
very impressed with the concept that Fred has submitted. It is just a
pity that someone has to go through the expense of engineering PROOF
LOADING and design procedure and finish up with needing to pay for a
damn mod. to put it into practice. I would think that it could well be
applied to many types of aircraft. Unfortunately such costs are way
ahead of a damn pensioner !
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: 27 October 2013 09:50
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
Bob
I can verify that occasionally such drastic incidents are surviveable. I
can also confirm that compression fractures of the spine do result, so I
am very impressed with Fred Klein's solution.
My own conclusion is that unless one's training is so good that one can
guarantee not having an accidental spin, (which I can not!) for me a
Long EZ would be a more forgiving airplane. I flew several EZs for 15
years, when I started flying Europa's I soon realised that EZs may well
make one overconfident. I have spun many airplanes and gliders, as "good
practice/training?" trouble with spin recovery is you end up going
straight down at high speed halfway through the recovery.
Even so, all airplanes bite if not respected at all times. IOW don't
push your airplane out of it's comfort zone!
Bottom line is most of us don't fly enough to be always ahead of the
airplane.
Graham
_____
From: Bob Harrison <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, 27 October 2013, 0:18
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
Hi! Mark,
I have for some time been aware of this issue and possible compression
of the spine from the harness location of the Europa .
I have over 1000 hours with the harness all as standard . Perhaps such
a drastic incident would be likely unsurvivable anyway.
However I have at some time seen an arrangement with a hinged block on
top of the existing seat back which ensures that the potential for any
spine compressive forces is removed. However It would need extensive
load testing and need to be very resilient so I=99ve never done
anything further. It would also need the length of the shoulder straps
to be much longer .
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au
Sent: 26 October 2013 22:22
Subject: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
Hi,
At the beginning of the year I purchased a Europa XS Tri Gear about 60%
completed project. I=99ve been reading your postings which have
been helping me with my project. I=99ve been reading somewhere
about the rear mounting point for the seatbelt is not in the best
position and I was wondering what the thoughts were on relocating the
rear mount point to the roof of the cockpit.
Has anyone done this before? I was wondering what your thoughts were,
weather it would be worth the extra work or would it just be a waste of
time?
Mark
Kit 451 (Australia)
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator_blank"
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
However to improve on the pip pin being used for this purpose I think would
need a pin threaded for a nut to be tightened and if you can develop a way
of access to a fully assembled aircraft for applying a bolt and nut I would
be pleased to hear of it ! In the meantime the pip ball rules!
Bob, and all others of course
I like you and no doubt quite a few others have given the threaded bolt
option
You mention quite some thought, spending a lot of time traveling for work
Gives you the luxury of time to ponder such small things, the main issue
I have over switching to some sort of threaded arrangement is the alignment
issues
With the pin now can be troublesome, now say it has the be PERFECTLY aligned
to
Get the thread to start without cross threading it, and it just got a whole
lot
Harder, of course you could use some form of stepped alignment with say a
3/8
Taper stepping up to the 1/2 inch thread and a caged nut that can move to
align
But not rotate, that was my idea anyway, but I don't think there is enough
space
Say 1/2 an inch, for the caged nut, plus then the tapered end of the bolt
sticking through
The nut. One option that did come to mind was something similar to a masonry
anchor
Where you slide the whole thing into a hole, and tighten the bolt(or nut)
depending
On the style and the unit in the hole expands at the end to lock itself into
the
Concrete. If you used an internal thread arrangement to pull a set of jaws
outwards
You could "grab" the back end of the socket where the balls are now, and
pull both spars
Then hard into the seat back, by simply tightening one bolt
HOWEVER
The device mentioned would likely be a custom made part, with springs etc to
ensure the jaws
Retract, I know of no such part at present.
Secondly, no doubt someone will weigh in with and it is a concern of mine
too
It is generally accepted the seat back is NOT contributing to transfer lift
loads etc
To the airframe, and that like most aircraft the wings do flex and move in
flight
If you have the spars firmly bolted to seat back then you remove that
movement potential
Completely and probably make the seat back a major load bearing component,
and who knows
What the result of that might be
Just my thoughts
Make of them what you will, the pin works ok, sure its not perfect, but
would
Something else be any better
Regards
craig
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Cockit ventilation |
Richard and Daniel,
Sorry, I don't have any good pictures, and the next time I am close to the Europa
will be early December... sorry. I am in Uganda on work right now, the plane
is in the neighboring country of Kenya (my country of abode). The only thing
I can dig out on this computer is attached, pretty useless but you can see
the position of the vents in both the near and opposite window. have no idea
what type they are, they were ordered by a friend for his Cessna 206, and were
surplus. I just bought them from him and stuck them in. They are essential
in these temperatures.
Best
Richard, Kenya
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411511#411511
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Cockit ventilation |
Sorry it doesnt want to attach.
I have had this problem before on this forum. Attach, click submit, and then a
page comes up saying "this page cant be displayed'.
Any ideas how to attach?
Richard
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411512#411512
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 10/26/2013 11:21 PM, markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au wrote:
> Ive been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the
> seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the
> thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the
> cockpit.
>
> Has anyone done this before?
Yep. I have done this, and I'm very happy with this roof mounted
seatbelt arrangement.
Of course I have not been able to test what happens in an accident,
but at least it is unlikely that I will get my spine compressed due to
the seatbelt.
Frans
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)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=40u9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pip pin logic |
We know that the wings & spars have been proof tested to
10g and the force on the spar pin is principally one of
shear with the spar tip trying to depart downwards, and at
10g MAUW, the actual shear force is likely to be something
in excess of 3000kg.
In comparison to this, the tendency for the spar tip to
move backwards and disengage itself from the spar pin must
be very small and I have no doubt that the clever fellows
at Europa did their stress calculations and concluded that
the tension strength of the pip pin system was sufficient.
I suspect that reinventing that particiular wheel will
achieve nothing but risking not being able to get your
wings off somewhere down the line.
Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 20:48:18 +1000
"craig" <craigb@onthenet.com.au> wrote:
><craigb@onthenet.com.au>
>
>
>
> However to improve on the pip pin being used for this
>purpose I think would
> need a pin threaded for a nut to be tightened and if you
>can develop a way
> of access to a fully assembled aircraft for applying a
>bolt and nut I would
> be pleased to hear of it ! In the meantime the pip ball
>rules!
>
> Bob, and all others of course
> I like you and no doubt quite a few others have given
>the threaded bolt
> option
> You mention quite some thought, spending a lot of time
>traveling for work
> Gives you the luxury of time to ponder such small
>things, the main issue
> I have over switching to some sort of threaded
>arrangement is the alignment
> issues
> With the pin now can be troublesome, now say it has the
>be PERFECTLY aligned
> to
> Get the thread to start without cross threading it, and
>it just got a whole
> lot
> Harder, of course you could use some form of stepped
>alignment with say a
> 3/8
> Taper stepping up to the 1/2 inch thread and a caged nut
>that can move to
> align
> But not rotate, that was my idea anyway, but I don't
>think there is enough
> space
> Say 1/2 an inch, for the caged nut, plus then the
>tapered end of the bolt
> sticking through
> The nut. One option that did come to mind was something
>similar to a masonry
> anchor
> Where you slide the whole thing into a hole, and tighten
>the bolt(or nut)
> depending
> On the style and the unit in the hole expands at the end
>to lock itself into
> the
> Concrete. If you used an internal thread arrangement to
>pull a set of jaws
> outwards
> You could "grab" the back end of the socket where the
>balls are now, and
> pull both spars
> Then hard into the seat back, by simply tightening one
>bolt
>
> HOWEVER
>
> The device mentioned would likely be a custom made part,
>with springs etc to
> ensure the jaws
> Retract, I know of no such part at present.
>
> Secondly, no doubt someone will weigh in with and it is
>a concern of mine
> too
> It is generally accepted the seat back is NOT
>contributing to transfer lift
> loads etc
> To the airframe, and that like most aircraft the wings
>do flex and move in
> flight
> If you have the spars firmly bolted to seat back then
>you remove that
> movement potential
> Completely and probably make the seat back a major load
>bearing component,
> and who knows
> What the result of that might be
>
> Just my thoughts
> Make of them what you will, the pin works ok, sure its
>not perfect, but
> would
> Something else be any better
>
> Regards
> craig
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pip pin logic |
Bob, The AAIB report on William's plane made it clear that
the starboard wing broke away from its spar. Although not
specifically mentioning the pins or the strap system, that
implies that thy hadnot failed before the forces became
big enough to break the spar. Regards, David
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 09:21:26 -0000
"Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
><ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Andrew,
> I don't profess to be an authorised person to pass a
>professional comment
> but since often I do ......!
> It is an established fact that the wings fail forward
>which means that the
> starboard spa tip will tend to want to be loaded towards
>leaving the port
> pin AFT taking the metal socket with it off the port
>spa. Without the pip
> pin the only restraint will be the CUFF which is wrapped
>round both spa's in
> their centre portion and the socket bonded to the aft of
>the Port spa . So
> an additional restraint on the starboard spa tip to keep
>it clamped to the
> aft side of the Port spa when rigged is an obvious
>bonus.
> ( Just in passing it would be of prime interest as to
>the state of all these
> items on the William Mills catastrophe aircraft? And
>surely the
> investigators would do us all a big favour to circulate
>such fine detail for
> our consumption?)
> However to improve on the pip pin being used for this
>purpose I think would
> need a pin threaded for a nut to be tightened and if you
>can develop a way
> of access to a fully assembled aircraft for applying a
>bolt and nut I would
> be pleased to hear of it ! In the meantime the pip ball
>rules!
> Best regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On
>Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan
> Sent: 27 October 2013 03:57
> To: Europa List
> Subject: Europa-List: Pip pin logic
>
><asarangan@gmail.com>
>
> I am hoping someone can help me understand the logic
>behind the spar pip
> pin. According to a posting by Neville Eyre some time
>back, the pin is
> important for preventing the spar tang from migrating
>aft and jamming the
> aileron crank. This makes sense, especially given how
>close the spar is to
> the cranks. However, in my limited experience, I have
>only seen pins used
> for shear stresses, not longitudinal stress.
> The latter would mean the ball at the end the pin has to
>be load bearing.
> This seems a bit odd to me, but I am sure there must be
>a logic behind this
> setup. I am hoping someone can shed some light on this
>for me.
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pip pin logic |
Under extreme load the spar pin is being twisted downwards (at the rear end). So
it is no longer purely in shear, thus the tendency for the rear spar to slide
off and the need for a pip pin and strap.
If the spar arrangement was a fork type (in many gliders) instead of the scissors
that we currently have this twisting load would not exist.
Cheers,
Pete
> On Oct 27, 2013, at 7:27 AM, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> We know that the wings & spars have been proof tested to 10g and the force on
the spar pin is principally one of shear with the spar tip trying to depart downwards,
and at 10g MAUW, the actual shear force is likely to be something in
excess of 3000kg.
> In comparison to this, the tendency for the spar tip to move backwards and disengage
itself from the spar pin must be very small and I have no doubt that the
clever fellows at Europa did their stress calculations and concluded that the
tension strength of the pip pin system was sufficient. I suspect that reinventing
that particiular wheel will achieve nothing but risking not being able
to get your wings off somewhere down the line.
> Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ
>
> On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 20:48:18 +1000
> "craig" <craigb@onthenet.com.au> wrote:
>> However to improve on the pip pin being used for this purpose I think would
>> need a pin threaded for a nut to be tightened and if you can develop a way
>> of access to a fully assembled aircraft for applying a bolt and nut I would
>> be pleased to hear of it ! In the meantime the pip ball rules!
>> Bob, and all others of course
>> I like you and no doubt quite a few others have given the threaded bolt
>> option
>> You mention quite some thought, spending a lot of time traveling for work
>> Gives you the luxury of time to ponder such small things, the main issue
>> I have over switching to some sort of threaded arrangement is the alignment
>> issues
>> With the pin now can be troublesome, now say it has the be PERFECTLY aligned
>> to
>> Get the thread to start without cross threading it, and it just got a whole
>> lot
>> Harder, of course you could use some form of stepped alignment with say a
>> 3/8
>> Taper stepping up to the 1/2 inch thread and a caged nut that can move to
>> align
>> But not rotate, that was my idea anyway, but I don't think there is enough
>> space
>> Say 1/2 an inch, for the caged nut, plus then the tapered end of the bolt
>> sticking through
>> The nut. One option that did come to mind was something similar to a masonry
>> anchor
>> Where you slide the whole thing into a hole, and tighten the bolt(or nut)
>> depending
>> On the style and the unit in the hole expands at the end to lock itself into
>> the
>> Concrete. If you used an internal thread arrangement to pull a set of jaws
>> outwards
>> You could "grab" the back end of the socket where the balls are now, and
>> pull both spars
>> Then hard into the seat back, by simply tightening one bolt
>> HOWEVER
>> The device mentioned would likely be a custom made part, with springs etc to
>> ensure the jaws
>> Retract, I know of no such part at present.
>> Secondly, no doubt someone will weigh in with and it is a concern of mine
>> too
>> It is generally accepted the seat back is NOT contributing to transfer lift
>> loads etc
>> To the airframe, and that like most aircraft the wings do flex and move in
>> flight
>> If you have the spars firmly bolted to seat back then you remove that
>> movement potential
>> Completely and probably make the seat back a major load bearing component,
>> and who knows
>> What the result of that might be
>> Just my thoughts
>> Make of them what you will, the pin works ok, sure its not perfect, but
>> would
>> Something else be any better
>> Regards
>> craig Un/Subscription,
>> Forums!
>> Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi! All,
The message just posted by Frans has reminded me of the huge number of relevant photos of all topics on the Matronics photo pages Might be helpful to lots of you here recently to have a "wander" through the photos . :- --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 27 October 2013 11:13
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
--> <frans@privatepilots.nl>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 10/26/2013 11:21 PM, markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au wrote:
> Ive been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the
> seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the
> thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the
> cockpit.
>
> Has anyone done this before?
Yep. I have done this, and I'm very happy with this roof mounted seatbelt arrangement.
Of course I have not been able to test what happens in an accident, but at least
it is unlikely that I will get my spine compressed due to the seatbelt.
Frans
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Thanks for that David but as ever photos speak thousands of words painful so looking
would be to some.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce
Sent: 27 October 2013 11:44
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pip pin logic
--> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Bob, The AAIB report on William's plane made it clear that the starboard wing broke
away from its spar. Although not specifically mentioning the pins or the
strap system, that implies that thy hadnot failed before the forces became big
enough to break the spar. Regards, David
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pip pin logic |
>
> If the spar arrangement was a fork type (in many gliders) instead of the
> scissors that we currently have this twisting load would not exist.
>
I fully agree Pete and remember being shocked myself when I learnt how
Europa set up the spars. However, I would not like to try to redesign it
myself given the constraints within that small area. Europa made that
decision at the time and the set-up DOES work Ok.
Reminds me of an old mate of mine now deceased unfortunately . . . . . .
whenever I used to say "IF", he would always reply . . . . . "Yes, and IF
the dog didn't stop to shit, it would have caught the hare!"
In jest
Kingsley from Oz
do not archive.
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pip pin logic |
I also agree, don't redesign something that has been proven..... Everything is
an engineering compromise, and I assume tank capacity and simplicity was the original
design intent.
Cheers,
Pete
> On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:17 AM, "Kingsley Hurst" <kingsnjan@westnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> If the spar arrangement was a fork type (in many gliders) instead of the scissors
that we currently have this twisting load would not exist.
>
> I fully agree Pete and remember being shocked myself when I learnt how Europa
set up the spars. However, I would not like to try to redesign it myself given
the constraints within that small area. Europa made that decision at the time
and the set-up DOES work Ok.
>
> Reminds me of an old mate of mine now deceased unfortunately . . . . . . whenever
I used to say "IF", he would always reply . . . . . "Yes, and IF the dog
didn't stop to shit, it would have caught the hare!"
>
> In jest
>
> Kingsley from Oz
>
> do not archive.
>
>
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:11 AM, Bob Harrison wrote:
> It is just a pity that someone has to go through the expense of
engineering PROOF LOADING and design procedure and finish up with
needing to pay for a damn mod. to put it into practice.
Bob...I couldn't agree w/ you more...and...there are both positives and
negatives to the regs and different approaches used by the
people-who-are-paid-to-worry in the UK and the US.
In my circumstances, I was the only person I had to satisfy...and I was
able to do so by imposing a 1500# compression load on my little riser
using a hydraulic press and very heavy duty cargo strap...but the net
effect was but a conscientious effort to ensure that the orientation of
the imposed loads was accurate and the load path into the airframe did
not change...nonetheless, a far cry from engineering proof loading.
Fred
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au>
<markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au> wrote:
> What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much
higher than the head rest are they?
Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom was
contoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll see
if I can digitize a drawing...F.
b
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
You have a four seater Europa? Cool! ;-)
Nice job Fred, Better the seat back and mod get crushed than ones spine!
Cheers,
Pete
> On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au> <markandr
honda@harveyfarm.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much hi
gher than the head rest are they?
>
> Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom was c
ontoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll see if I
can digitize a drawing...F.
>
> <DSCN2133.jpg>b
>
> <DSCN2135.jpg>
>
> <DSCN2136.jpg>
>
> <DSCN2205.jpg>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
On Oct 27, 2013, at 9:24 AM, Pete wrote:
> Nice job Fred, Better the seat back and mod get crushed than ones
spine!
Thanks Pete...I'm repeatedly surprised by the strength of foam & glass
composites...F.
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pip pin logic |
I did speak to one manufacturer of "quick release pins" (on an
unrelated matter) who said that the load rating only applies to the
main shaft and not to the retaining mechanism (i.e. ball). This was
the reason for my original question.
In addition, I also recall seeing an email in this group who said
something was rattling around the belly, which turned out to be the
spar socket. There was no conclusion on why it had come off, but it
could be due to the pip pin ball slipping, allowing the spar to pull
the socket off.
The spacing between the spar and the aileron crank is just a few
millimeters. So if there is enough force to pull a socket off its
araldite bond, that same force can easily flex the spar enough to
interfere with the cranks, especially since the spars have a lot of
flex in the lateral direction.
On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 6:48 AM, craig <craigb@onthenet.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> However to improve on the pip pin being used for this purpose I think would
> need a pin threaded for a nut to be tightened and if you can develop a way
> of access to a fully assembled aircraft for applying a bolt and nut I would
> be pleased to hear of it ! In the meantime the pip ball rules!
>
> Bob, and all others of course
> I like you and no doubt quite a few others have given the threaded bolt
> option
> You mention quite some thought, spending a lot of time traveling for work
> Gives you the luxury of time to ponder such small things, the main issue
> I have over switching to some sort of threaded arrangement is the alignment
> issues
> With the pin now can be troublesome, now say it has the be PERFECTLY aligned
> to
> Get the thread to start without cross threading it, and it just got a whole
> lot
> Harder, of course you could use some form of stepped alignment with say a
> 3/8
> Taper stepping up to the 1/2 inch thread and a caged nut that can move to
> align
> But not rotate, that was my idea anyway, but I don't think there is enough
> space
> Say 1/2 an inch, for the caged nut, plus then the tapered end of the bolt
> sticking through
> The nut. One option that did come to mind was something similar to a masonry
> anchor
> Where you slide the whole thing into a hole, and tighten the bolt(or nut)
> depending
> On the style and the unit in the hole expands at the end to lock itself into
> the
> Concrete. If you used an internal thread arrangement to pull a set of jaws
> outwards
> You could "grab" the back end of the socket where the balls are now, and
> pull both spars
> Then hard into the seat back, by simply tightening one bolt
>
> HOWEVER
>
> The device mentioned would likely be a custom made part, with springs etc to
> ensure the jaws
> Retract, I know of no such part at present.
>
> Secondly, no doubt someone will weigh in with and it is a concern of mine
> too
> It is generally accepted the seat back is NOT contributing to transfer lift
> loads etc
> To the airframe, and that like most aircraft the wings do flex and move in
> flight
> If you have the spars firmly bolted to seat back then you remove that
> movement potential
> Completely and probably make the seat back a major load bearing component,
> and who knows
> What the result of that might be
>
> Just my thoughts
> Make of them what you will, the pin works ok, sure its not perfect, but
> would
> Something else be any better
>
> Regards
> craig
>
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
Nice neat job and they look very strong Fred
From: Fred Klein
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au>
<markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au> wrote:
What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much
higher than the head rest are they?
Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom was
contoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll see
if I can digitize a drawing...F.
b
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
Hi Frans
Have you got any photos or a description how you built and installed them
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Frans Veldman
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 10/26/2013 11:21 PM, markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au wrote:
> Ive been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the
> seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the
> thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the
> cockpit.
>
> Has anyone done this before?
Yep. I have done this, and I'm very happy with this roof mounted
seatbelt arrangement.
Of course I have not been able to test what happens in an accident,
but at least it is unlikely that I will get my spine compressed due to
the seatbelt.
Frans
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)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=40u9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seatbelt mount |
Mark...I wrapped 3 layers of BID around the ends up to the 1/8" plywood
stiffener...then wrapped another 3 layers over the entire front and back
faces and thru the ears including the hinge plates....Fred
On Oct 27, 2013, at 1:55 PM, <markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au>
<markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au> wrote:
> Nice neat job and they look very strong Fred
>
> From: Fred Klein
> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:03 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seatbelt mount
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au>
<markandrhonda@harveyfarm.net.au> wrote:
>
>> What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how
much higher than the head rest are they?
>
> Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom
was contoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll
see if I can digitize a drawing...F.
>
> <DSCN2133.jpg>b
>
> <DSCN2135.jpg>
>
> <DSCN2136.jpg>
>
> <DSCN2205.jpg>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Some nice NZ scenery |
Hopefully I have copied this link correctly. I think many on the list might enjoy
this
Rob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mxmFCw-Dig
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Some nice NZ scenery |
This is very nice. Reminds me of my flights in New Mexico and Colorado.
On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Rob Waters <rob@squirrel.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Hopefully I have copied this link correctly. I think many on the list might enjoy
this
>
> Rob
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mxmFCw-Dig
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|