---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/04/13: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:05 AM - Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:37 AM - Re: Europa Classic wing blistering (Richard Lamprey) 2. 02:25 AM - Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers (Carl & Dot Pattinson) 3. 02:38 AM - Paint quantities (fireflier) 4. 03:42 AM - Re: Paint quantities (Richard Wheelwright) 5. 03:47 AM - Re: Paint quantities (Donald Cameron) 6. 04:00 AM - Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk) 7. 08:03 AM - Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers (Carl & Dot Pattinson) 8. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers (Bob Harrison) 9. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers (Michael Davies) 10. 10:29 AM - Fuel tank fluorination (Andrew Sarangan) 11. 02:25 PM - Re: Europa Classic wing blistering (GBWFH2010) 12. 06:10 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Pete) 13. 08:17 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Andrew Sarangan) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:25 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:16 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Classic wing blistering From: "Richard Lamprey" There was a thread about this about 8 months ago. I had blistering on the tail surfaces of my classic, after fitting covers. I understand that if these get wet, and stay wet, there is every chance of blistering. Glider people apparently know about this, if storing wings in damp suspension slings, where the blistering is in the wing surface matching the suspension areas. Best Richard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412088#412088 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:14 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers From: "Carl & Dot Pattinson" Just been on the phone to the factory for a set of damper units for the undercarriage (current ones are shot). Apparently current supplier no longer makes these and they have yet to find a replacement. Is there a third party company (preferably in the UK) that would be able to supply a replacement. The builders manual says that the dampers are an optional item but having flown with these fitted for the last 10 years we are reluctant to remove them - although in their present condition one might argue we may as well not have them anyway. Any ideas/ opinions ??? Carl & Dot Pattinson G-LABS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412090#412090 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:45 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Paint quantities From: "fireflier" Hello I'm wondering if anyone can help me with an estimate on how much paint they used to finish their aircraft? I have been in contact with pexa uk with regards to them supplying me with there C21-100UVR, however the sales rep that I have been dealing with is not familiar with the europa, and therefore unsure of the quantities I will require to finish my aircraft. He has therefore asked if I can find out quantities etc so he can give me a suitable quotation for supply. I would appreciate any help you can give me with regards to this. I look forward to hearing from you. Kind regards Donald -------- Fireflier Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412091#412091 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:43 AM PST US From: Richard Wheelwright Subject: Re: Europa-List: Paint quantities Donald,=0A- - -5lts Primer=0A- - -5lts Topcoat=0A- - -5lt s Hardener=0A- - -5lts Thinners (Do not make the paint too thin)=0A =0A- - - - If your painter is really good at his job, you should ha ve some paint left for the hanger rash later in life=0A-=0A==== =================0A=0ARichard Wheelwright =0A======================== ==================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Paint quantities From: Donald Cameron Hi Richard Many thanks for your reply, much appreciated. Kind regards Donald Sent from my iPhone On 4 Nov 2013, at 11:42, Richard Wheelwright wro te: > Donald, > 5lts Primer > 5lts Topcoat > 5lts Hardener > 5lts Thinners (Do not make the paint too thin) > > If your painter is really good at his job, you should have some pa int left for the hanger rash later in life > > ========================= =================== > Richard Wheelwright > =================== > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:33 AM PST US From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers Carl, I have just spoken with the manufacturer who confirms that they stopped production of these units some time back and have no plans to produce more. I did inquired about re-commissioning a batch to supply the existing fleet (all of which are aging and will need these at some point) but was assured that they have no plans re-start production. The main reason for getting out of the market was the potential litigation issues associated with "aviation", something that was not such an issue twenty years ago when the first batches were produced. If you succeed in sourcing an alternative shock manufacturer, It might pay you to take an old unit to them and tell them it came off some "machinery" as the moment the word "Aviation" is mentioned, the door will close. Good luck and keep us posted - I think a lot of owners of aging monos will be watching this with keen interest. Nigel On 04/11/2013 10:24, Carl & Dot Pattinson wrote: > > Just been on the phone to the factory for a set of damper units for the undercarriage (current ones are shot). > > Apparently current supplier no longer makes these and they have yet to find a replacement. > > Is there a third party company (preferably in the UK) that would be able to supply a replacement. > > The builders manual says that the dampers are an optional item but having flown with these fitted for the last 10 years we are reluctant to remove them - although in their present condition one might argue we may as well not have them anyway. > > Any ideas/ opinions ??? > > Carl & Dot Pattinson > G-LABS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412090#412090 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:21 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers From: "Carl & Dot Pattinson" That doesen't look too promising. I guess things will have to stay as they are for the time being. I was hoping to replace the dampers when I replaced the oilite bearings this week. I will take the dimensions when I have the block out and keep a look out for something suitable. I did take a quick look on Ebay and found a damper which appeared to have similar dimensions (from memory). http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suspa-Softline-Hydraulic-Damper-HD28-for-Caravan-Engine-Stearing-/360457096748?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item53eceace2c I dont suppose anybody has a drawing of the damper with the dimensions ? I guess it will be a matter of trial and error, not to mention getting LAA approval. If I have any luck, I will let you know. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412101#412101 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:10 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers Hi! Carl, On the contrary, your comment about the LAA may just be relevant since in my opinion they should be able to bring pressure on the new owners (Swift Aviation) of the Europa Company to research and secure suitable replacement parts. I have sold my redundant Mono Suspension parts since G-PTAG will now be permanently fitted out as a trike , otherwise I would have volunteered you an unused set. But of course you could do a trike conversion on your aircraft ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl & Dot Pattinson Sent: 04 November 2013 16:03 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers --> That doesen't look too promising. I guess things will have to stay as they are for the time being. I was hoping to replace the dampers when I replaced the oilite bearings this week. I will take the dimensions when I have the block out and keep a look out for something suitable. I did take a quick look on Ebay and found a damper which appeared to have similar dimensions (from memory). http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suspa-Softline-Hydraulic-Damper-HD28-for-Caravan-E ngine-Stearing-/360457096748?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5 3eceace2c I dont suppose anybody has a drawing of the damper with the dimensions ? I guess it will be a matter of trial and error, not to mention getting LAA approval. If I have any luck, I will let you know. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412101#412101 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:20 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Monowheel Hydraulic Dampers From: Michael Davies Hi Carl I have a unused pair of dampers here in the UK. if you are interested pm me for any details to check they the correct ones. Mike Davies G-MLXP (taildragger) On Nov 4, 2013 4:06 PM, "Carl & Dot Pattinson" < carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > That doesen't look too promising. > > I guess things will have to stay as they are for the time being. I was > hoping to replace the dampers when I replaced the oilite bearings this week. > > I will take the dimensions when I have the block out and keep a look out > for something suitable. > > I did take a quick look on Ebay and found a damper which appeared to have > similar dimensions (from memory). > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suspa-Softline-Hydraulic-Damper-HD28-for-Caravan-Engine-Stearing-/360457096748?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item53eceace2c > > I dont suppose anybody has a drawing of the damper with the dimensions ? > > I guess it will be a matter of trial and error, not to mention getting LAA > approval. > > If I have any luck, I will let you know. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412101#412101 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:15 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination This is for builders in the U.S or Canada who have not bonded their tanks yet. I am planning on sending my tank for additional fluorination treatment prior to install. The cost is a mere $35/tank, but the minimum charge is $425, so I am looking for anyone interested in joining in the fun. Although the newer Europa tanks are supposedly fluorinated, the consensus seems to be that they are not done to the same level as automotive tanks. There have been a number of scary stories and pictures of swelling/splitting tanks and leaks, so the hope is that one could avoid this catastrophe by spending the extra time and money before the install. The company is http://inhanceproducts.com/ (formerly fluoroseal). You can look it up if you like. Anyone interested please contact me. The idea is, you would clean and bag the tank and ship it to me. I will drive them over to the vendor in Columbus, OH, and then ship them back to you when they are done. Obviously, I am not providing any guarantees of the process or any assurances that it will even work. The vendor also says that if the tank is not spotlessly clean, it can destroy the whole tank., so there is some risks as well. On the other hand, I would also appreciate hearing from anyone who has done fluorination on their tanks, and have any thoughts on this process. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:02 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Classic wing blistering From: "GBWFH2010" Thanks to all for your replies on this topic and it is interesting to know I am not alone! However, I was really hoping for guidance regarding how to rectify the problem as I want to be sure any work I do does not effect the structural integrity of the wing. Regards -------- Gordon Grant G-BWFH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412117#412117 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:58 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination I had used the same company to fluorinate my circa 2001 tank to the highest "automotive level", and it did indeed come back with a much different "frosty" finish. So although I cannot attest to its effectiveness as it still :-( does not have fuel in it, the treatment surely did change the surface texture, so it must have penetrated more than the reported factory treatment. This is the same company that treats automotive fuel tanks to meet evaporative emissions standards, as well as at lower levels for items such as shampoo bottles etc. I did carefully clean my tank and cobra with naphtha, and wrapped and sealed them in poly inside a shipping crate to keep them clean and as a result I did not have any "burning" issues from the treatment. I followed the company's advise and made *all* finish cuts to the openings prior to treatment. To not do so (as per the factory tanks) negates the surface treatment as the fuel migrates into the material via the untreated cuts and subsequently swells and suffers long term embrittlement. I had gone it alone at the time as I could not find any other takers - hopefully Andrew will have better luck. I figured the cost is well worth the high likelihood that I will avoid the tank swelling and cracking others have had over the long term, with the resultant hacking in of a replacement down the road. I am contemplating piggy-backing on this order to treat a small LDPE motorcycle fuel tank I had purchased, but need to first verify with that mfg if this tank's "x-linked PE" is compatible. They did not treat their tanks as they do not need to meet (off road) emissions std's, but experience has shown me that these tanks do smell up a garage. Cheers and blue skies, Pete A239 - still a pile of parts. > On Nov 4, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > > This is for builders in the U.S or Canada who have not bonded their > tanks yet. I am planning on sending my tank for additional > fluorination treatment prior to install. The cost is a mere $35/tank, > but the minimum charge is $425, so I am looking for anyone interested > in joining in the fun. > > Although the newer Europa tanks are supposedly fluorinated, the > consensus seems to be that they are not done to the same level as > automotive tanks. There have been a number of scary stories and > pictures of swelling/splitting tanks and leaks, so the hope is that > one could avoid this catastrophe by spending the extra time and money > before the install. > > The company is http://inhanceproducts.com/ (formerly fluoroseal). You > can look it up if you like. > > Anyone interested please contact me. The idea is, you would clean and > bag the tank and ship it to me. I will drive them over to the vendor > in Columbus, OH, and then ship them back to you when they are done. > Obviously, I am not providing any guarantees of the process or any > assurances that it will even work. The vendor also says that if the > tank is not spotlessly clean, it can destroy the whole tank., so there > is some risks as well. > > On the other hand, I would also appreciate hearing from anyone who has > done fluorination on their tanks, and have any thoughts on this > process. > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:03 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE). It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice. Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C. Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates. There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably even more important in hot climates. I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank. On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Pete wrote: > I had used the same company to fluorinate my circa 2001 tank to the highe st "automotive level", and it did indeed come back with a much different " frosty" finish. So although I cannot attest to its effectiveness as it stil l :-( does not have fuel in it, the treatment surely did change the surfa ce texture, so it must have penetrated more than the reported factory treat ment. This is the same company that treats automotive fuel tanks to meet ev aporative emissions standards, as well as at lower levels for items such a s shampoo bottles etc. I did carefully clean my tank and cobra with naphth a, and wrapped and sealed them in poly inside a shipping crate to keep them clean and as a result I did not have any "burning" issues from the treatme nt. I followed the company's advise and made *all* finish cuts to the open ings prior to treatment. To not do so (as per the factory tanks) negates th e surface treatment as the fuel migrates into the material via the untreate d cuts and subse! > quently swells and suffers long term embrittlement. I had gone it alone at the time as I could not find any other takers - hopefully Andrew will h ave better luck. I figured the cost is well worth the high likelihood that I will avoid the tank swelling and cracking others have had over the long t erm, with the resultant hacking in of a replacement down the road. > > I am contemplating piggy-backing on this order to treat a small LDPE moto rcycle fuel tank I had purchased, but need to first verify with that mfg if this tank's "x-linked PE" is compatible. They did not treat their tanks a s they do not need to meet (off road) emissions std's, but experience has s hown me that these tanks do smell up a garage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.