Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:16 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:09 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank (spcialeffects)
2. 02:08 AM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (Alan Carter)
3. 02:35 AM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (g-fizy)
4. 04:17 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
5. 06:04 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Ivan Shaw)
6. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (pooh)
7. 06:19 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Max Cointe (Free))
8. 08:34 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Jeremy Fisher)
9. 08:57 AM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (Alan Carter)
10. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (Pete Lawless)
11. 11:50 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Pete)
12. 11:54 AM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Robert Borger)
13. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (pooh)
14. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (pooh)
15. 02:29 PM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (Alan Carter)
16. 02:46 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
17. 03:59 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Andrew Sarangan)
18. 05:47 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (PETER MORGANS)
19. 05:50 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Rob Housman)
20. 06:26 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Pete)
21. 06:36 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Andrew Sarangan)
22. 08:20 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Robert Borger)
Message 0
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Subject: | Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... |
Dear Listers,
Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution
today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great
List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution
too!
The Contribution Site is fast and easy:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94551-0347
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank |
This must be what we're talking about
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28719
Came across it the other day while looking for fuel system installation ideas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412490#412490
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
Hi All.
I have a PV 50, an a small problem ,I think but not sure yet, may be normal functionality
.
However in manual mode with the +/_ switch engine stationary on the ground I can
see the blades change angle from fine to coarse, if you don,t want constant
speed control in flight you can set this mode.
I have spoken to Smart electronics, and plan to send my unit to them for Free updating
of the soft wear which has the new Take off mode setting.
He just said sent 10 to cover the return postage and packing, very nice helpful
chap.
Regards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412568#412568
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
Thanks for your replies :-)
Peter "as soon as i can i will be trying out your very help full list and i will
post my findings"
Alan"mine does not move when i do that ,so Peter maybe right my motor may have
failed "
kevin ,I am interested in the controller you have picked ,as i would rather just
have a simple switch ,like i have seen on some europa aircraft
--------
owner g-fizy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412570#412570
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Max=0Athanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weig
ht and balance. But!=0Aone does need to check it thoroughly when its first
written.=0AThe same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change th
e variable parameters and that's it.=0AThen before every flight fill in the
variables like fuel quantity, crew weights, baggage=C2- and that's it.
=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Max Coint
e (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturda
y, 9 November 2013, 7:25=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance=0A
=0A=0AHi Jerry,=0A=0AHere is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps=0A=0AMax
=C2- Cointe=0Amcointe@free.fr=0AF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0AKit #560-2003
912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours=0A=0AF-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S
=0AKit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A-----Message d'origine-
----=0ADe=C2-: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-eur
opa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fisher=0AEnvoy=C3=A9=C2
-: samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46=0A=C3=C2-: europa-list@matronics.com
=0AObjet=C2-: Europa-List: Weight and Balance=0A=0A--> Europa-List messag
e posted by: Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com>=0A=0AI am hoping to find an
example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear.=C2- I know that=0Aeach aircraft is
different, but I want to see what the approximate effect of=0Aa couple of m
ods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the=0Aseats.=C2- I
would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914 engine.=0ACan an
yone help?=0A=0AJerry Fisher=0A=0AList=0A7-Day
Message 5
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Subject: | Weight and Balance |
You could always add a =98Zero fuel weight and c.g. onto the
graph. This will show that you do not run out of the c.g. envelope as
fuel is burnt, unlikely in a Europa but it is good practice to do this.
Ivan
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: 09 November 2013 12:17
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight and Balance
Max
thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weight
and balance. But!
one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written.
The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the
variable parameters and that's it.
Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew
weights, baggage and that's it.
Graham
_____
From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>
Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance
Hi Jerry,
Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps
Max Cointe
mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy
Fisher
Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance
I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know that
each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate
effect of
a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the
seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914
engine.
Can anyone help?
Jerry Fisher
List
7-Day
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
=0AHi Alan,=0AJust for your information, Arplast do not recom
mend operating the pitch change whilst the prop is stationary.
Too much load on its little motor.=0AOne further point f
or Jim. There are at least two different auto controllers
for the PV50. One is from Smart Avionics and the other
is from Arplast themselves. So if you are trying for info
rmation you need to know which controller you have. As th
e person who probably fitted your controller, Gerry can probab
ly advise which one you have.=0APete=0APS I have used PV50 n
ow for about 1500 hours. During that time i have changed
two motors that went dead. I only have the manual control
switch for it and find prop control very easy effective and
reliable. The only down side to manual as opposed to auto
control is that you do not have overspeed protection for
your engine.=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-europa-list-
server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Be
half Of Alan Carter=0ASent: 09 November 2013 10:07=0ATo: europa-
list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50 problem=0A
lancarteresq@onetel.net>=0A =0AHi All.=0AI have a PV 50, an a
small problem ,I think but not sure yet, may be normal fun
ctionality .=0AHowever in manual mode with the +/_ switch engi
ne stationary on the ground I can see the blades change an
gle from fine to coarse, if you don,t want constant speed
control in flight you can set this mode.=0AI have spoken to
Smart electronics, and plan to send my unit to them for Fr
ee updating of the soft wear which has the new Take off
mode setting.=0AHe just said sent =C3=82=C2=A310 to cover the
return postage and packing, very nice helpful chap.=0ARegards.=0AA
lan=0A =0A =0A =0A =0ARead this topic online here:=0A =0Ahttp:
//forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412568#412568=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A
===========================
-=
===========================
===========================
===========================
=========================0A =0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: g-fizy <jim.davis1@me
.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 10:46=0A
Subject: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50 problem=0A=0A=0A--> Europa-L
ist message posted by: "g-fizy" <jim.davis1@me.com>Thanks for y
our replies :-)eter "as soon as i can i will be trying
out your very help full list and i will ost my findings
"lan"mine does not move when i do that ,so Peter maybe
right my motor may have ailed "evin ,I am interested i
n the controller you have picked ,as i would rather just
ave a simple switch ,like i have seen on some europa aircr
aft--------wner g-fizyead this topic online here:htt
===========================
===========================
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Fund Raiser. Click on-= the Contribution link below
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nerous support!-=-=
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mail Forum --= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator
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ription,-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, F
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Message 7
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Subject: | Weight and Balance |
Graham, That=99s exactly the way we use this sheet. And
you=99re right, it work for each and every plane I fly with
including the 4S.
Ivan, yes that=99s really a great advantage of our marvel!
Max Cointe
<mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Ivan Shaw
Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 15:03
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance
You could always add a =98Zero fuel weight and c.g. onto the
graph. This will show that you do not run out of the c.g. envelope as
fuel is burnt, unlikely in a Europa but it is good practice to do this.
Ivan
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: 09 November 2013 12:17
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight and Balance
Max
thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weight
and balance. But!
one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written.
The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the
variable parameters and that's it.
Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew
weights, baggage and that's it.
Graham
_____
From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>
Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance
Hi Jerry,
Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps
Max Cointe
mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy
Fisher
Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance
I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know that
each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate
effect of
a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the
seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914
engine.
Can anyone help?
Jerry Fisher
List
7-Day
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
www.mypilotstore.com
www.mrrace.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
I would like to thank those of you who responded to my request for a W&B
sheet, it gave me the answers that I was hoping for.
Incidentally I just bought the XAvion App for my IPad. Among many other
things, it enables you to very quickly input the W&B data before each
flight, and gives a clear graphical indication of whether you meet the
parameters, ready for any ramp check. For those of you in the US, it is
really worth looking into for its safety factors, including
automatically calculating where you can glide into in the event of an
engine failure, together with full steering information, and a warning
if you try to take off or land downwind. All for $100. Incredible.
Jerry
On Nov 9, 2013, at 7:16 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
> Max
> thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do
weight and balance. But!
> one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written.
> The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the
variable parameters and that's it.
> Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity,
crew weights, baggage and that's it.
> Graham
>
>
> From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance
>
> Hi Jerry,
>
> Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps
>
> Max Cointe
> mcointe@free.fr
> F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
> Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
>
> F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S
> Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy
Fisher
> Envoy=E9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46
> =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com
> Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance
>
>
> I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know
that
> each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate
effect of
> a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the
> seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914
engine.
> Can anyone help?
>
> Jerry Fisher
>
> List
> 7-Day
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
Hi Peter.
Many thanks for that piece of information, Peter, I,d better not do that test with
the engine stationary,
I have the Smart version, can't find my manual, but I thought I read somewhere
in the manual you still had over speed protection in Manual Mode, and pitch control
was by using the +/- toggle switch, if you select Disable it shows OFF
ad you lose overspeed protection, I will have to look for my manual, I could well
be wrong , but it will make me do a bit of revision and look things up again
the old memory not so good in retirement.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412586#412586
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
Hi Alan
This from SmartAvionics website. Rev limiting is enabled in manual.
Pete
"The controller provides the following modes of operation:
Disabled
The automatic control is completely disconnected, the +/- toggle switch
directly controls the propeller pitch.
Manual
The automatic control is connected but propeller pitch control is via
the +/- toggle switch. Automatic rev limiting is enabled. If the mode button
is now pressed briefly, the mode changes to cruise.
Cruise
The controller endevours to keep the RPM within a "dead band" around the
target cruise RPM by adjusting the propeller pitch. The +/- toggle switch
can be used to adjust the target RPM in steps of 50 RPM. Pressing the mode
button briefly, toggles the mode back to manual.
Climb
Similar to cruise mode, except that the preset "Climb RPM" is used.
Pushing the mode button for 1/2 of a second or more selects this mode.
Pushing the mode button briefly, reverts to cruise mode.
Takeoff
Similar to climb mode, except that the preset "Takeoff RPM" is used.
Pushing the mode button for 1 second or more selects this mode. Pushing the
mode button briefly, reverts to climb mode.
Operation of the CSC-1/P is very straightforward and places little workload
on the pilot. Before takeoff, takeoff mode is selected by pressing the mode
button for about a second. Once safely clear of the ground, climb mode is
selected with a quick press of the mode button. When the desired cruise
altitude is reached, a further quick press of the mode button selects cruise
mode and the throttle can then be adjusted to the cruise position. In the
cruise, the throttle works as a 'speed lever'. On descending to land,
takeoff mode is reselected in case a go-around is necessary."
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter
Sent: 09 November 2013 16:55
Subject: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50 problem
Hi Peter.
Many thanks for that piece of information, Peter, I,d better not do that
test with the engine stationary,
I have the Smart version, can't find my manual, but I thought I read
somewhere in the manual you still had over speed protection in Manual Mode,
and pitch control was by using the +/- toggle switch, if you select Disable
it shows OFF ad you lose overspeed protection, I will have to look for my
manual, I could well be wrong , but it will make me do a bit of revision and
look things up again the old memory not so good in retirement.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412586#412586
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Houxou, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
...and add the Levil wireless AHRS with air data (even with an option for AD
SB weather and traffic) and one almost has a full (backup) panel and more. :
)
Cheers,
Pete
> On Nov 9, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would like to thank those of you who responded to my request for a W&B s
heet, it gave me the answers that I was hoping for.
>
> Incidentally I just bought the XAvion App for my IPad. Among many other t
hings, it enables you to very quickly input the W&B data before each flight,
and gives a clear graphical indication of whether you meet the parameters, r
eady for any ramp check. For those of you in the US, it is really worth loo
king into for its safety factors, including automatically calculating where y
ou can glide into in the event of an engine failure, together with full stee
ring information, and a warning if you try to take off or land downwind. Al
l for $100. Incredible.
>
> Jerry
>> On Nov 9, 2013, at 7:16 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
>>
>> Max
>> thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weight a
nd balance. But!
>> one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written.
>> The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the variabl
e parameters and that's it.
>> Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew w
eights, baggage and that's it.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>> From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance
>>
>> Hi Jerry,
>>
>> Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps
>>
>> Max Cointe
>> mcointe@free.fr
>> F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
>> Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
>>
>> F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S
>> Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fish
er
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46
>> =C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
>> Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance
>>
>>
>> I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know that
>> each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate effect
of
>> a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the
>> seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914 engi
ne.
>> Can anyone help?
>>
>> Jerry Fisher
>>
>> List
>> 7-Day
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> href="http://www.mypilotstore.com/">www.mypilotstore.com
>> href="http://www.mrrace.com/">www.mrrace.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank fluorination |
Andrew,
Two questions:
1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isnt
fried?
2. What is the timing on procedure?
I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports
to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
even more important in hot climates.
I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
=0AHi Alan,=0AI am sorry I may have accidentally misled you
wrt overspeed protection. Let me clarify what I meant.=0AIf
you operate the PV50 (or any other prop for that matter) u
sing a smart controller in manual then you are protected fro
m overspeeding. If however (and this was in response to a
comment in Jim Davis's original letter) you are just using
a manual coarse/fine switch without smart controller then you
have no protection.=0ATrouble is that there are several diffe
rent set ups and I was responding to two letters from diff
erent people at the same time.=0APete=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-
----=0AFrom: Alan Carter <alancarteredifferentsq@onetel.net>=0ATo: europ
a-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 17:05=0ASubject: Europa
-List: Re: airplast pv50 problem=0A=0A=0A--> Europa-List message p
osted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>Hi Peter.any
thanks for that piece of information, Peter, I,d better not
do that test ith the engine stationary, have the Smar
t version, can't find my manual, but I thought I read some
where n the manual you still had over speed protection in
Manual Mode, and pitch ontrol was by using the +/- tog
gle switch, if you select Disable it shows OFF d you
lose overspeed protection, I will have to look for my manual
, I could ell be wrong , but it will make me do a
bit of revision and look things up gain the old memory
not so good in retirement.Regards lanead this topic
online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412586#412586
===========================
==========-=-= -- Please S
upport Your Lists This Month ---=
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)-=-= November is
the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on-= the Con
tribution link below to find out more about-= this
year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided-= by:-=
-= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com-=
* The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com-=
* HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com-= * My
Pilot Store www.mypilotstore.com-= * Race Consulting
www.mrrace.com-=-= List Contribution Web Site:-=
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution-=-= T
hank you for your generous support!-=-=
-Matt Dra
lle, List Admin.-=-=================
===========================
================-=
- The Europa-List Email Forum --= Use the Matronics Li
st Features Navigator to browse-= the many List utilities
such as List Un/Subscription,-= Archive Search & Download,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-=-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List-=
-===========================
===========================
======-= - MATRON
ICS WEB FORUMS --= Same great content also available via
the Web Forums!-=-= --> http://forums.matronics.com-=
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========0A=0A
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
=0AThanks for that Pete,=0AMy comment about no overspeed protect
ion was associated with the pre Smart controller set up.
Ie when all we had was a coarse/fine switch without clever
electronics.=0APete J=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Pete
Lawless <pete@lawless.info>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat,
9 Nov 2013 18:30=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50
<pete@lawless.info>i AlanThis from SmartAvionics website.
Rev limiting is enabled in manual.Pete"The controller provid
es the following modes of operation:Disabled The autom
atic control is completely disconnected, the +/- toggle switch
irectly controls the propeller pitch. Manual The autom
atic control is connected but propeller pitch control is via
he +/- toggle switch. Automatic rev limiting is enabled. If
the mode buttons now pressed briefly, the mode changes to
cruise. Cruise The controller endevours to keep the
RPM within a "dead band" around thearget cruise RPM by ad
justing the propeller pitch. The +/- toggle switchan be use
d to adjust the target RPM in steps of 50 RPM. Pressing
the modeutton briefly, toggles the mode back to manual.
Climb Similar to cruise mode, except that the preset
"Climb RPM" is used.ushing the mode button for 1/2 of a
second or more selects this mode.ushing the mode button bri
efly, reverts to cruise mode. Takeoff Similar to cli
mb mode, except that the preset "Takeoff RPM" is used.ushin
g the mode button for 1 second or more selects this mode.
Pushing theode button briefly, reverts to climb mode. Oper
ation of the CSC-1/P is very straightforward and places little
workloadn the pilot. Before takeoff, takeoff mode is selec
ted by pressing the modeutton for about a second. Once sa
fely clear of the ground, climb mode iselected with a qui
ck press of the mode button. When the desired cruiseltitude
is reached, a further quick press of the mode button sele
cts cruiseode and the throttle can then be adjusted to th
e cruise position. In theruise, the throttle works as a '
speed lever'. On descending to land,akeoff mode is reselected
in case a go-around is necessary."-----Original Message-----
rom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.commailto:owner-europa-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carterent: 09 November 2013
16:55o: europa-list@matronics.comubject: Europa-List: Re: airplast
<alancarteresq@onetel.net>Hi Peter.any thanks for that piece
of information, Peter, I,d better not do thatest with the
engine stationary, have the Smart version, can't find my
manual, but I thought I readomewhere in the manual you st
ill had over speed protection in Manual Mode,nd pitch contr
ol was by using the +/- toggle switch, if you select Di
sablet shows OFF ad you lose overspeed protection, I will
have to look for myanual, I could well be wrong , but
it will make me do a bit of revision andook things up
again the old memory not so good in retirement.Regards l
anead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/vie
wtopic.php?p=412586#412586-- his message has been
scanned for viruses andangerous content by Houxou, and is
===========================
=================-=-=
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month ---=
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)-=-=
November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on-=
the Contribution link below to find out more about-=
this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided-=
by:-= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectr
ic.com-= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.
com-= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com-=
* My Pilot Store www.mypilotstore.com-= * Rac
e Consulting www.mrrace.com-=-= List Contribution Web
Site:-=-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution-=
-= Thank you for your generous support!-=-=
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.-=-=============
===========================
====================-=
- The Europa-List Email Forum --= Use the Ma
tronics List Features Navigator to browse-= the many List
utilities such as List Un/Subscription,-= Archive Search &
Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,-= Photoshare, and much m
uch more:-=-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europ
a-List-=-=====================
===========================
============-=
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS --= Same great content also
available via the Web Forums!-=-= --> http://forums.
matronics.com-=-===================
===========================
===============0A=0A
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: airplast pv50 problem |
Hi Peter.
It does get a bit confusing on the forum some times, all clear now.
My PV 50 seems to behaving different and I can't make out why.
I rarely use the turbo, I set take off prefixed at 5600 rpms, then I twig it back
to 5450 then roll, once airborne I twig back to 5000 rpms, at level off
I press the cruise button and it drops back to 4200 rpms.
Lets say I then twig up to 5000 then climb then twig up a bit more say 5250 then
level off , press cruise again it should drop back to 4200, but sometimes it
goes to the last setting ie, 5000 in this case, but this is not always the case
sometimes it will go back to 4200.
Something is not quite right, or I,v got finger trouble somewhere along the line.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412598#412598
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Does it also do density altituse, that's a common gotcha withspa,cans, (les
s so with Europa)=0Abut it's still possible to get caught out on a hot day,
full load and altitude, 200' feet was enough to almos=0Acatch my friend ou
t at Ecuvillance. I was RH seat, and we were over gross with a 912 UL.=0AGr
aham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Pete <peterz@z
utrasoft.com>=0ATo: "europa-list@matronics.com" <europa-list@matronics.com>
=0ASent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 19:50=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Weig
ht and Balance=0A =0A=0A=0A...and add the Levil wireless AHRS with air data
(even with an option for ADSB weather and traffic) and one almost has a fu
ll (backup) panel and more. :)=0A=0ACheers,=0APete=0A=0AOn Nov 9, 2013, at
11:34 AM, Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=0A=0AI would like to
thank those of you who responded to my request for a W&B sheet, it gave me
the answers that I was hoping for.=0A>=0A>=0A>Incidentally I just bought t
he XAvion App for my IPad. =C2-Among many other things, it enables you to
very quickly input the W&B data before each flight, and gives a clear grap
hical indication of whether you meet the parameters, ready for any ramp che
ck. =C2-For those of you in the US, it is really worth looking into for i
ts safety factors, including automatically calculating where you can glide
into in the event of an engine failure, together with full steering informa
tion, and a warning if you try to take off or land downwind. =C2-All for
$100. =C2-Incredible.=0A>=0A>=0A>Jerry=0A>=0A>On Nov 9, 2013, at 7:16 AM,
GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>=0A>Max=0A>>thanks for the spread sheet. This i
s the only sensible way to do weight and balance. But!=0A>>one does need to
check it thoroughly when its first written.=0A>>The same spreadsheet will
work with any airplane. Just change the variable parameters and that's it.
=0A>>Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, cre
w weights, baggage=C2- and that's it.=0A>>Graham=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: Max Cointe (Free) <mc
ointe@free.fr>=0A>>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Saturday, 9 Nov
ember 2013, 7:25=0A>>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance=0A>> =0A>
>=0A>>Hi Jerry,=0A>>=0A>>Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps=0A>>
=0A>>Max=C2- Cointe=0A>>mcointe@free.fr=0A>>F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0A>>
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours=0A>>=0A>>F-PLDJ Dyn=99A
=C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0A>>Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A>>---
--Message d'origine-----=0A>>De=C2-: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.c
om=0A>>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy
Fisher=0A>>Envoy=C3=A9=C2-: samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46=0A>>=C3=C2
-: europa-list@matronics.com=0A>>Objet=C2-: Europa-List: Weight and Bal
ail.com>=0A>>=0A>>I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigea
r.=C2- I know that=0A>>each aircraft is different, but I want to see what
the approximate effect of=0A>>a couple of mods would be, including an auxi
liary fuel tank behind the=0A>>seats.=C2- I would really appreciate any e
xample, preferably with a 914 engine.=0A>>Can anyone help?=0A>>=0A>>Jerry F
isher=0A>>=0A>>List=0A>>7-Day=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>href="htt
p://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.builders
books.com/">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">ww
w.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.mypilotstore.com/">www.mypilotstore.
com href="http://www.mrrace.com/">www.mrrace.com href="http://www.matro
nics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http:/
/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigato
r?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics
.com =0A>=0A>D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=0Aot;">www.aeroelectric.com=0Abooks.com"">www.buildersbooks
.com=0Aquot;">www.homebuilthelp.com=0Aquot;">www.mypilotstore.com=0A">www.m
rrace.com=0Aot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0AD=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0Aa-List"">htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0AD=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A//forums.matronics.com=0A
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
=========================0A
================
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank fluorination |
Bob
Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be
removed. That is about all they said. Apparently these items can
'burn' in fluorine and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank
first with dishwashing detergent and fabric softener. This reduces
static cling and allows the fine powdery plastic to be flushed out. I
got a surprising amount of particles come out even after I had
vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on plugging the holes with
cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, drain it, and then
repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and IPA dehydrates
all surfaces. That's my plan anyway.
Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the
automotive-level fluorination process, so it depends on when we
deliver the parts there, and what they have in their pipeline. But
they said it shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 weeks.
My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But
if you are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait.
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isnt
> fried?
>
> 2. What is the timing on procedure?
>
> I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports
> to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger@mac.com
>
> On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
> misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
> It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
> don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
> rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
> polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
>
> Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
> great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
> as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
> Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
> week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
> if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
>
> There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
> that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
> should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
> of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
> 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
> waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
> tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
> this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
> even more important in hot climates.
>
> I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
> generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
> main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
>
>
Message 18
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|
Subject: | Re: Fuel tank fluorination |
Hi,=0AI'm new to the List, but just my two pennies worth: I thought the tan
k was made from polypropylene, not polyethylene.=0ARegards=0APeter Morgans
=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Robert Borger <rlborger
@mac.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 9 November 201
3, 19:54=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination=0A =0A=0A--> E
uropa-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>=0A=0AAndrew,
=0A=0ATwo questions:=0A=0A1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to
ensure the tank isn=99t =0Afried?=0A=0A2. What is the timing on proce
dure?=0A=0AI have my new tank almost ready to install.=C2- Just a few mor
e supports =0Ato make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.=0A=0ABlu
e skies & tailwinds,=0ABob Borger=0AEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S
Prop.=0ALittle Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP=0A370
5 Lynchburg Dr.=0ACorinth, TX=C2- 76208-5331=0ACel: 817-992-1117=0Arlborg
er@mac.com=0A=0AOn Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gma
il.com> wrote:=0A=0ALooking through the email archives, there seem to be so
me=0Amisunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
=0AIt is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I=0Ad
on't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the=0Arotomold
ing process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with=0Apolyethylene
so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.=0A=0AWeather it is L
DPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is=0Agreat with gasolin
e. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it=0Aas "Limited Compatibi
lity" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.=0AGranted, liquids don't heat u
p quickly, but over a full hot summer=0Aweek, 40C may not be unrealistic. I
t would be interesting to examine=0Aif the tank failures have come mostly f
rom warmer climates.=0A=0AThere have also been discussions about inadequate
support of the tank=0Athat could lead to tank failures. This is true, but
polyethylene=0Ashould only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more
indicative=0Aof a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf f
or over=0A12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it fel
t=0Awaxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the=0At
ank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of=0Athis po
ints to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably=0Aeven more
important in hot climates.=0A=0AI was also told by Fluoroseal that automoti
ve level coating is=0Agenerally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level o
f coating is the=0Amain reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
==================
Message 19
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Subject: | Fuel tank fluorination |
I suggest that you re-think your sequence. Perhaps you scheme will actually
get the tank clean but since both acetone and isopropyl alcohol are polar
solvents they won't do a thing to remove oils which are by definition
non-polar. Water is another rather well known polar solvent and I'm certain
that you realize that water alone won't remove the oils. A lighter
non-polar solvent (such as paint thinner) will get the oils out and then the
detergent (polar at one end of the molecule and non-polar at the other end)
in water will get rid of the residue. Acetone will do a nice job of
gathering up the water after getting rid of the oils. The fabric softener
will probably adhere nicely to the tank's surface (that's how it works).
In the spirit of the old adage about being better safe than sorry, I must
point out that gasoline is also a non-polar solvent and some folks have been
known to set themselves on fire using it as an oil removing solvent. I
would not expect anyone on this list to try for a Darwin Award, so I
probably did not even need to mention this.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS A070
Rotax 914
Airframe complete
Avionics a work in progress
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination
Bob
Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be removed.
That is about all they said. Apparently these items can 'burn' in fluorine
and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank first with dishwashing
detergent and fabric softener. This reduces static cling and allows the fine
powdery plastic to be flushed out. I got a surprising amount of particles
come out even after I had vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on
plugging the holes with cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone,
drain it, and then repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and
IPA dehydrates all surfaces. That's my plan anyway.
Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the automotive-level
fluorination process, so it depends on when we deliver the parts there, and
what they have in their pipeline. But they said it shouldn't be more than 1
or 2 weeks.
My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But if you
are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait.
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn't
> fried?
>
> 2. What is the timing on procedure?
>
> I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports
> to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger@mac.com
>
> On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
> misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
> It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
> don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
> rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
> polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
>
> Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
> great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
> as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
> Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
> week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
> if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
>
> There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
> that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
> should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
> of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
> 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
> waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
> tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
> this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
> even more important in hot climates.
>
> I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
> generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
> main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
>
>
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank fluorination |
I am not a chemist, but I am certain acetone is a dipolar solvent - it
works for polar as well as some nonpolar liquids. I use it for
removing oils, lubricants, glue and paint.
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:34 PM, Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> wrote:
>
> I suggest that you re-think your sequence. Perhaps you scheme will actually
> get the tank clean but since both acetone and isopropyl alcohol are polar
> solvents they won't do a thing to remove oils which are by definition
> non-polar. Water is another rather well known polar solvent and I'm certain
> that you realize that water alone won't remove the oils. A lighter
> non-polar solvent (such as paint thinner) will get the oils out and then the
> detergent (polar at one end of the molecule and non-polar at the other end)
> in water will get rid of the residue. Acetone will do a nice job of
> gathering up the water after getting rid of the oils. The fabric softener
> will probably adhere nicely to the tank's surface (that's how it works).
>
> In the spirit of the old adage about being better safe than sorry, I must
> point out that gasoline is also a non-polar solvent and some folks have been
> known to set themselves on fire using it as an oil removing solvent. I
> would not expect anyone on this list to try for a Darwin Award, so I
> probably did not even need to mention this.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Europa XS A070
> Rotax 914
> Airframe complete
> Avionics a work in progress
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan
> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 3:58 PM
> To: Europa List
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination
>
>
> Bob
>
> Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be removed.
> That is about all they said. Apparently these items can 'burn' in fluorine
> and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank first with dishwashing
> detergent and fabric softener. This reduces static cling and allows the fine
> powdery plastic to be flushed out. I got a surprising amount of particles
> come out even after I had vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on
> plugging the holes with cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone,
> drain it, and then repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and
> IPA dehydrates all surfaces. That's my plan anyway.
>
> Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the automotive-level
> fluorination process, so it depends on when we deliver the parts there, and
> what they have in their pipeline. But they said it shouldn't be more than 1
> or 2 weeks.
>
> My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But if you
> are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait.
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> Two questions:
>>
>> 1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn't
>> fried?
>>
>> 2. What is the timing on procedure?
>>
>> I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports
>> to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.
>>
>> Blue skies & tailwinds,
>> Bob Borger
>> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
>> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
>> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
>> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
>> Cel: 817-992-1117
>> rlborger@mac.com
>>
>> On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some
>> misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE).
>> It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I
>> don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the
>> rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with
>> polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.
>>
>> Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is
>> great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it
>> as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.
>> Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer
>> week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine
>> if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates.
>>
>> There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank
>> that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene
>> should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative
>> of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over
>> 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt
>> waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the
>> tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of
>> this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably
>> even more important in hot climates.
>>
>> I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is
>> generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the
>> main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank fluorination |
Andrew,
Let me acquire the necessary agents and get it clean and Ill get back
with you for a mailing address. Should have it done by Tuesday. With
any luck, it could by at your place by Friday or Monday.
While the tank is off for treatment, I guess Ill have to find other
things to do for a while.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Nov 9, 2013, at 5:57 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote:
Bob
Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be
removed. That is about all they said. Apparently these items can
'burn' in fluorine and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank
first with dishwashing detergent and fabric softener. This reduces
static cling and allows the fine powdery plastic to be flushed out. I
got a surprising amount of particles come out even after I had
vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on plugging the holes with
cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, drain it, and then
repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and IPA dehydrates
all surfaces. That's my plan anyway.
Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the
automotive-level fluorination process, so it depends on when we
deliver the parts there, and what they have in their pipeline. But
they said it shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 weeks.
My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But
if you are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait.
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