Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 11/09/13


Total Messages Posted: 23



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 12:16 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle)
     1. 12:09 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank (spcialeffects)
     2. 02:08 AM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (Alan Carter)
     3. 02:35 AM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (g-fizy)
     4. 04:17 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     5. 06:04 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Ivan Shaw)
     6. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (pooh)
     7. 06:19 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Max Cointe (Free))
     8. 08:34 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Jeremy Fisher)
     9. 08:57 AM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (Alan Carter)
    10. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (Pete Lawless)
    11. 11:50 AM - Re: Weight and Balance (Pete)
    12. 11:54 AM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Robert Borger)
    13. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (pooh)
    14. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: airplast pv50 problem (pooh)
    15. 02:29 PM - Re: airplast pv50 problem (Alan Carter)
    16. 02:46 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
    17. 03:59 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Andrew Sarangan)
    18. 05:47 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (PETER MORGANS)
    19. 05:50 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Rob Housman)
    20. 06:26 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Pete)
    21. 06:36 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Andrew Sarangan)
    22. 08:20 PM - Re: Fuel tank fluorination (Robert Borger)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 12:16:34 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists...
    Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution too! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94551-0347 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator


    Message 1


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    Time: 12:09:03 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank
    From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects@aol.com>
    This must be what we're talking about http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28719 Came across it the other day while looking for fuel system installation ideas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412490#412490


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:08:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi All. I have a PV 50, an a small problem ,I think but not sure yet, may be normal functionality . However in manual mode with the +/_ switch engine stationary on the ground I can see the blades change angle from fine to coarse, if you don,t want constant speed control in flight you can set this mode. I have spoken to Smart electronics, and plan to send my unit to them for Free updating of the soft wear which has the new Take off mode setting. He just said sent 10 to cover the return postage and packing, very nice helpful chap. Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412568#412568


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:35:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    From: "g-fizy" <jim.davis1@me.com>
    Thanks for your replies :-) Peter "as soon as i can i will be trying out your very help full list and i will post my findings" Alan"mine does not move when i do that ,so Peter maybe right my motor may have failed " kevin ,I am interested in the controller you have picked ,as i would rather just have a simple switch ,like i have seen on some europa aircraft -------- owner g-fizy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412570#412570


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:17:36 AM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Weight and Balance
    Max=0Athanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weig ht and balance. But!=0Aone does need to check it thoroughly when its first written.=0AThe same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change th e variable parameters and that's it.=0AThen before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew weights, baggage=C2- and that's it. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Max Coint e (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturda y, 9 November 2013, 7:25=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance=0A =0A=0AHi Jerry,=0A=0AHere is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps=0A=0AMax =C2- Cointe=0Amcointe@free.fr=0AF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0AKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours=0A=0AF-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0AKit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A-----Message d'origine- ----=0ADe=C2-: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-eur opa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fisher=0AEnvoy=C3=A9=C2 -: samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46=0A=C3=C2-: europa-list@matronics.com =0AObjet=C2-: Europa-List: Weight and Balance=0A=0A--> Europa-List messag e posted by: Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com>=0A=0AI am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear.=C2- I know that=0Aeach aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate effect of=0Aa couple of m ods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the=0Aseats.=C2- I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914 engine.=0ACan an yone help?=0A=0AJerry Fisher=0A=0AList=0A7-Day


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:04:01 AM PST US
    From: "Ivan Shaw" <ivanshaw@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Weight and Balance
    You could always add a =98Zero fuel weight and c.g. onto the graph. This will show that you do not run out of the c.g. envelope as fuel is burnt, unlikely in a Europa but it is good practice to do this. Ivan From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 09 November 2013 12:17 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight and Balance Max thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weight and balance. But! one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written. The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the variable parameters and that's it. Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew weights, baggage and that's it. Graham _____ From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr> Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance Hi Jerry, Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fisher Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46 =C3 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know that each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate effect of a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914 engine. Can anyone help? Jerry Fisher List 7-Day


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:17:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    From: pooh <pjeffers@talktalk.net>
    =0AHi Alan,=0AJust for your information, Arplast do not recom mend operating the pitch change whilst the prop is stationary. Too much load on its little motor.=0AOne further point f or Jim. There are at least two different auto controllers for the PV50. One is from Smart Avionics and the other is from Arplast themselves. So if you are trying for info rmation you need to know which controller you have. As th e person who probably fitted your controller, Gerry can probab ly advise which one you have.=0APete=0APS I have used PV50 n ow for about 1500 hours. During that time i have changed two motors that went dead. I only have the manual control switch for it and find prop control very easy effective and reliable. The only down side to manual as opposed to auto control is that you do not have overspeed protection for your engine.=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-europa-list- server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Be half Of Alan Carter=0ASent: 09 November 2013 10:07=0ATo: europa- list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50 problem=0A lancarteresq@onetel.net>=0A =0AHi All.=0AI have a PV 50, an a small problem ,I think but not sure yet, may be normal fun ctionality .=0AHowever in manual mode with the +/_ switch engi ne stationary on the ground I can see the blades change an gle from fine to coarse, if you don,t want constant speed control in flight you can set this mode.=0AI have spoken to Smart electronics, and plan to send my unit to them for Fr ee updating of the soft wear which has the new Take off mode setting.=0AHe just said sent =C3=82=C2=A310 to cover the return postage and packing, very nice helpful chap.=0ARegards.=0AA lan=0A =0A =0A =0A =0ARead this topic online here:=0A =0Ahttp: //forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412568#412568=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =========================== -= =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: g-fizy <jim.davis1@me .com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 10:46=0A Subject: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50 problem=0A=0A=0A--> Europa-L ist message posted by: "g-fizy" <jim.davis1@me.com>Thanks for y our replies :-)eter "as soon as i can i will be trying out your very help full list and i will ost my findings "lan"mine does not move when i do that ,so Peter maybe right my motor may have ailed "evin ,I am interested i n the controller you have picked ,as i would rather just ave a simple switch ,like i have seen on some europa aircr aft--------wner g-fizyead this topic online here:htt =========================== =========================== ==-=-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month ---= (And Get Some AWE SOME FREE Gifts!)-=-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on-= the Contribution link below to find out more about-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided-= by:-= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com-= * The Builde r's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com-= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com-= * My Pilot Store www.mypilots tore.com-= * Race Consulting www.mrrace.com-=-= List Contribution Web Site:-=-= --> http://ww w.matronics.com/contribution-=-= Thank you for your ge nerous support!-=-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.-= -=========================== =========================== ======-= - The Europa-List E mail Forum --= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subsc ription,-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, F AQ,-= Photoshare, and much much more:-=-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List-=-======== =========================== =========================-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!- =-= --> http://forums.matronics.com-=-====== =========================== =========================== =0A=0A


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:19:51 AM PST US
    From: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe@free.fr>
    Subject: Weight and Balance
    Graham, That=99s exactly the way we use this sheet. And you=99re right, it work for each and every plane I fly with including the 4S. Ivan, yes that=99s really a great advantage of our marvel! Max Cointe <mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Ivan Shaw Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 15:03 =C3 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance You could always add a =98Zero fuel weight and c.g. onto the graph. This will show that you do not run out of the c.g. envelope as fuel is burnt, unlikely in a Europa but it is good practice to do this. Ivan From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 09 November 2013 12:17 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight and Balance Max thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weight and balance. But! one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written. The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the variable parameters and that's it. Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew weights, baggage and that's it. Graham _____ From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr> Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance Hi Jerry, Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fisher Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46 =C3 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know that each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate effect of a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914 engine. Can anyone help? Jerry Fisher List 7-Day www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com www.mypilotstore.com www.mrrace.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:34:49 AM PST US
    From: Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Weight and Balance
    I would like to thank those of you who responded to my request for a W&B sheet, it gave me the answers that I was hoping for. Incidentally I just bought the XAvion App for my IPad. Among many other things, it enables you to very quickly input the W&B data before each flight, and gives a clear graphical indication of whether you meet the parameters, ready for any ramp check. For those of you in the US, it is really worth looking into for its safety factors, including automatically calculating where you can glide into in the event of an engine failure, together with full steering information, and a warning if you try to take off or land downwind. All for $100. Incredible. Jerry On Nov 9, 2013, at 7:16 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Max > thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weight and balance. But! > one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written. > The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the variable parameters and that's it. > Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew weights, baggage and that's it. > Graham > > > From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr> > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25 > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance > > Hi Jerry, > > Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps > > Max Cointe > mcointe@free.fr > F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear > Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours > > F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S > Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fisher > Envoy=E9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46 > =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com > Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance > > > I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know that > each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate effect of > a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the > seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914 engine. > Can anyone help? > > Jerry Fisher > > List > 7-Day > > > > > > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:57:36 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi Peter. Many thanks for that piece of information, Peter, I,d better not do that test with the engine stationary, I have the Smart version, can't find my manual, but I thought I read somewhere in the manual you still had over speed protection in Manual Mode, and pitch control was by using the +/- toggle switch, if you select Disable it shows OFF ad you lose overspeed protection, I will have to look for my manual, I could well be wrong , but it will make me do a bit of revision and look things up again the old memory not so good in retirement. Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412586#412586


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:23:31 AM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    Hi Alan This from SmartAvionics website. Rev limiting is enabled in manual. Pete "The controller provides the following modes of operation: Disabled The automatic control is completely disconnected, the +/- toggle switch directly controls the propeller pitch. Manual The automatic control is connected but propeller pitch control is via the +/- toggle switch. Automatic rev limiting is enabled. If the mode button is now pressed briefly, the mode changes to cruise. Cruise The controller endevours to keep the RPM within a "dead band" around the target cruise RPM by adjusting the propeller pitch. The +/- toggle switch can be used to adjust the target RPM in steps of 50 RPM. Pressing the mode button briefly, toggles the mode back to manual. Climb Similar to cruise mode, except that the preset "Climb RPM" is used. Pushing the mode button for 1/2 of a second or more selects this mode. Pushing the mode button briefly, reverts to cruise mode. Takeoff Similar to climb mode, except that the preset "Takeoff RPM" is used. Pushing the mode button for 1 second or more selects this mode. Pushing the mode button briefly, reverts to climb mode. Operation of the CSC-1/P is very straightforward and places little workload on the pilot. Before takeoff, takeoff mode is selected by pressing the mode button for about a second. Once safely clear of the ground, climb mode is selected with a quick press of the mode button. When the desired cruise altitude is reached, a further quick press of the mode button selects cruise mode and the throttle can then be adjusted to the cruise position. In the cruise, the throttle works as a 'speed lever'. On descending to land, takeoff mode is reselected in case a go-around is necessary." -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 09 November 2013 16:55 Subject: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50 problem Hi Peter. Many thanks for that piece of information, Peter, I,d better not do that test with the engine stationary, I have the Smart version, can't find my manual, but I thought I read somewhere in the manual you still had over speed protection in Manual Mode, and pitch control was by using the +/- toggle switch, if you select Disable it shows OFF ad you lose overspeed protection, I will have to look for my manual, I could well be wrong , but it will make me do a bit of revision and look things up again the old memory not so good in retirement. Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412586#412586 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:50:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Weight and Balance
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    ...and add the Levil wireless AHRS with air data (even with an option for AD SB weather and traffic) and one almost has a full (backup) panel and more. : ) Cheers, Pete > On Nov 9, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com> wrote: > > I would like to thank those of you who responded to my request for a W&B s heet, it gave me the answers that I was hoping for. > > Incidentally I just bought the XAvion App for my IPad. Among many other t hings, it enables you to very quickly input the W&B data before each flight, and gives a clear graphical indication of whether you meet the parameters, r eady for any ramp check. For those of you in the US, it is really worth loo king into for its safety factors, including automatically calculating where y ou can glide into in the event of an engine failure, together with full stee ring information, and a warning if you try to take off or land downwind. Al l for $100. Incredible. > > Jerry >> On Nov 9, 2013, at 7:16 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >> >> Max >> thanks for the spread sheet. This is the only sensible way to do weight a nd balance. But! >> one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written. >> The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the variabl e parameters and that's it. >> Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, crew w eights, baggage and that's it. >> Graham >> >> >> From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 7:25 >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance >> >> Hi Jerry, >> >> Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps >> >> Max Cointe >> mcointe@free.fr >> F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear >> Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours >> >> F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S >> Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fish er >> Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46 >> =C3 : europa-list@matronics.com >> Objet : Europa-List: Weight and Balance >> >> >> I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigear. I know that >> each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate effect of >> a couple of mods would be, including an auxiliary fuel tank behind the >> seats. I would really appreciate any example, preferably with a 914 engi ne. >> Can anyone help? >> >> Jerry Fisher >> >> List >> 7-Day >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com >> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com >> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com >> href="http://www.mypilotstore.com/">www.mypilotstore.com >> href="http://www.mrrace.com/">www.mrrace.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


    Message 12


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    Time: 11:54:36 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank fluorination
    From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Andrew, Two questions: 1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isnt fried? 2. What is the timing on procedure? I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote: Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE). It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice. Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C. Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates. There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably even more important in hot climates. I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank.


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:29:03 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    From: pooh <pjeffers@talktalk.net>
    =0AHi Alan,=0AI am sorry I may have accidentally misled you wrt overspeed protection. Let me clarify what I meant.=0AIf you operate the PV50 (or any other prop for that matter) u sing a smart controller in manual then you are protected fro m overspeeding. If however (and this was in response to a comment in Jim Davis's original letter) you are just using a manual coarse/fine switch without smart controller then you have no protection.=0ATrouble is that there are several diffe rent set ups and I was responding to two letters from diff erent people at the same time.=0APete=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message- ----=0AFrom: Alan Carter <alancarteredifferentsq@onetel.net>=0ATo: europ a-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 17:05=0ASubject: Europa -List: Re: airplast pv50 problem=0A=0A=0A--> Europa-List message p osted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>Hi Peter.any thanks for that piece of information, Peter, I,d better not do that test ith the engine stationary, have the Smar t version, can't find my manual, but I thought I read some where n the manual you still had over speed protection in Manual Mode, and pitch ontrol was by using the +/- tog gle switch, if you select Disable it shows OFF d you lose overspeed protection, I will have to look for my manual , I could ell be wrong , but it will make me do a bit of revision and look things up gain the old memory not so good in retirement.Regards lanead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412586#412586 =========================== ==========-=-= -- Please S upport Your Lists This Month ---= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)-=-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on-= the Con tribution link below to find out more about-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided-= by:-= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com-= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com-= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com-= * My Pilot Store www.mypilotstore.com-= * Race Consulting www.mrrace.com-=-= List Contribution Web Site:-= -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution-=-= T hank you for your generous support!-=-= -Matt Dra lle, List Admin.-=-================= =========================== ================-= - The Europa-List Email Forum --= Use the Matronics Li st Features Navigator to browse-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,-= Photoshare, and much much more: -=-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List-= -=========================== =========================== ======-= - MATRON ICS WEB FORUMS --= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!-=-= --> http://forums.matronics.com-= -========================== =========================== ========0A=0A


    Message 14


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    Time: 01:32:11 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    From: pooh <pjeffers@talktalk.net>
    =0AThanks for that Pete,=0AMy comment about no overspeed protect ion was associated with the pre Smart controller set up. Ie when all we had was a coarse/fine switch without clever electronics.=0APete J=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 18:30=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Re: airplast pv50 <pete@lawless.info>i AlanThis from SmartAvionics website. Rev limiting is enabled in manual.Pete"The controller provid es the following modes of operation:Disabled The autom atic control is completely disconnected, the +/- toggle switch irectly controls the propeller pitch. Manual The autom atic control is connected but propeller pitch control is via he +/- toggle switch. Automatic rev limiting is enabled. If the mode buttons now pressed briefly, the mode changes to cruise. Cruise The controller endevours to keep the RPM within a "dead band" around thearget cruise RPM by ad justing the propeller pitch. The +/- toggle switchan be use d to adjust the target RPM in steps of 50 RPM. Pressing the modeutton briefly, toggles the mode back to manual. Climb Similar to cruise mode, except that the preset "Climb RPM" is used.ushing the mode button for 1/2 of a second or more selects this mode.ushing the mode button bri efly, reverts to cruise mode. Takeoff Similar to cli mb mode, except that the preset "Takeoff RPM" is used.ushin g the mode button for 1 second or more selects this mode. Pushing theode button briefly, reverts to climb mode. Oper ation of the CSC-1/P is very straightforward and places little workloadn the pilot. Before takeoff, takeoff mode is selec ted by pressing the modeutton for about a second. Once sa fely clear of the ground, climb mode iselected with a qui ck press of the mode button. When the desired cruiseltitude is reached, a further quick press of the mode button sele cts cruiseode and the throttle can then be adjusted to th e cruise position. In theruise, the throttle works as a ' speed lever'. On descending to land,akeoff mode is reselected in case a go-around is necessary."-----Original Message----- rom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.commailto:owner-europa-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carterent: 09 November 2013 16:55o: europa-list@matronics.comubject: Europa-List: Re: airplast <alancarteresq@onetel.net>Hi Peter.any thanks for that piece of information, Peter, I,d better not do thatest with the engine stationary, have the Smart version, can't find my manual, but I thought I readomewhere in the manual you st ill had over speed protection in Manual Mode,nd pitch contr ol was by using the +/- toggle switch, if you select Di sablet shows OFF ad you lose overspeed protection, I will have to look for myanual, I could well be wrong , but it will make me do a bit of revision andook things up again the old memory not so good in retirement.Regards l anead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/vie wtopic.php?p=412586#412586-- his message has been scanned for viruses andangerous content by Houxou, and is =========================== =================-=-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month ---= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)-=-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on-= the Contribution link below to find out more about-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided-= by:-= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectr ic.com-= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks. com-= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com-= * My Pilot Store www.mypilotstore.com-= * Rac e Consulting www.mrrace.com-=-= List Contribution Web Site:-=-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution-= -= Thank you for your generous support!-=-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.-=-============= =========================== ====================-= - The Europa-List Email Forum --= Use the Ma tronics List Features Navigator to browse-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,-= Photoshare, and much m uch more:-=-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europ a-List-=-===================== =========================== ============-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS --= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!-=-= --> http://forums. matronics.com-=-=================== =========================== ===============0A=0A


    Message 15


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    Time: 02:29:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: airplast pv50 problem
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi Peter. It does get a bit confusing on the forum some times, all clear now. My PV 50 seems to behaving different and I can't make out why. I rarely use the turbo, I set take off prefixed at 5600 rpms, then I twig it back to 5450 then roll, once airborne I twig back to 5000 rpms, at level off I press the cruise button and it drops back to 4200 rpms. Lets say I then twig up to 5000 then climb then twig up a bit more say 5250 then level off , press cruise again it should drop back to 4200, but sometimes it goes to the last setting ie, 5000 in this case, but this is not always the case sometimes it will go back to 4200. Something is not quite right, or I,v got finger trouble somewhere along the line. Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412598#412598


    Message 16


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    Time: 02:46:49 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Weight and Balance
    Does it also do density altituse, that's a common gotcha withspa,cans, (les s so with Europa)=0Abut it's still possible to get caught out on a hot day, full load and altitude, 200' feet was enough to almos=0Acatch my friend ou t at Ecuvillance. I was RH seat, and we were over gross with a 912 UL.=0AGr aham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Pete <peterz@z utrasoft.com>=0ATo: "europa-list@matronics.com" <europa-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Saturday, 9 November 2013, 19:50=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Weig ht and Balance=0A =0A=0A=0A...and add the Levil wireless AHRS with air data (even with an option for ADSB weather and traffic) and one almost has a fu ll (backup) panel and more. :)=0A=0ACheers,=0APete=0A=0AOn Nov 9, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Jeremy Fisher <jffisher@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=0A=0AI would like to thank those of you who responded to my request for a W&B sheet, it gave me the answers that I was hoping for.=0A>=0A>=0A>Incidentally I just bought t he XAvion App for my IPad. =C2-Among many other things, it enables you to very quickly input the W&B data before each flight, and gives a clear grap hical indication of whether you meet the parameters, ready for any ramp che ck. =C2-For those of you in the US, it is really worth looking into for i ts safety factors, including automatically calculating where you can glide into in the event of an engine failure, together with full steering informa tion, and a warning if you try to take off or land downwind. =C2-All for $100. =C2-Incredible.=0A>=0A>=0A>Jerry=0A>=0A>On Nov 9, 2013, at 7:16 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>=0A>Max=0A>>thanks for the spread sheet. This i s the only sensible way to do weight and balance. But!=0A>>one does need to check it thoroughly when its first written.=0A>>The same spreadsheet will work with any airplane. Just change the variable parameters and that's it. =0A>>Then before every flight fill in the variables like fuel quantity, cre w weights, baggage=C2- and that's it.=0A>>Graham=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: Max Cointe (Free) <mc ointe@free.fr>=0A>>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Saturday, 9 Nov ember 2013, 7:25=0A>>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance=0A>> =0A> >=0A>>Hi Jerry,=0A>>=0A>>Here is the one for F-PMLH. Hope this helps=0A>> =0A>>Max=C2- Cointe=0A>>mcointe@free.fr=0A>>F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0A>> Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours=0A>>=0A>>F-PLDJ Dyn=99A =C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0A>>Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A>>--- --Message d'origine-----=0A>>De=C2-: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.c om=0A>>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Jeremy Fisher=0A>>Envoy=C3=A9=C2-: samedi 9 novembre 2013 02:46=0A>>=C3=C2 -: europa-list@matronics.com=0A>>Objet=C2-: Europa-List: Weight and Bal ail.com>=0A>>=0A>>I am hoping to find an example W&B sheet for an XS Trigea r.=C2- I know that=0A>>each aircraft is different, but I want to see what the approximate effect of=0A>>a couple of mods would be, including an auxi liary fuel tank behind the=0A>>seats.=C2- I would really appreciate any e xample, preferably with a 914 engine.=0A>>Can anyone help?=0A>>=0A>>Jerry F isher=0A>>=0A>>List=0A>>7-Day=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>href="htt p://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.builders books.com/">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">ww w.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.mypilotstore.com/">www.mypilotstore. com href="http://www.mrrace.com/">www.mrrace.com href="http://www.matro nics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http:/ /www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigato r?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics .com =0A>=0A>D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=0Aot;">www.aeroelectric.com=0Abooks.com"">www.buildersbooks .com=0Aquot;">www.homebuilthelp.com=0Aquot;">www.mypilotstore.com=0A">www.m rrace.com=0Aot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0AD=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0Aa-List"">htt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0AD=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A//forums.matronics.com=0A D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 =========================0A ================


    Message 17


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    Time: 03:59:03 PM PST US
    From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank fluorination
    Bob Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be removed. That is about all they said. Apparently these items can 'burn' in fluorine and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank first with dishwashing detergent and fabric softener. This reduces static cling and allows the fine powdery plastic to be flushed out. I got a surprising amount of particles come out even after I had vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on plugging the holes with cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, drain it, and then repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and IPA dehydrates all surfaces. That's my plan anyway. Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the automotive-level fluorination process, so it depends on when we deliver the parts there, and what they have in their pipeline. But they said it shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 weeks. My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But if you are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait. On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote: > > Andrew, > > Two questions: > > 1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isnt > fried? > > 2. What is the timing on procedure? > > I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports > to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in. > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com > > On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote: > > Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some > misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE). > It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I > don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the > rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with > polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice. > > Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is > great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it > as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C. > Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer > week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine > if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates. > > There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank > that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene > should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative > of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over > 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt > waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the > tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of > this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably > even more important in hot climates. > > I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is > generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the > main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank. > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 05:47:52 PM PST US
    From: PETER MORGANS <petermorgans181@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank fluorination
    Hi,=0AI'm new to the List, but just my two pennies worth: I thought the tan k was made from polypropylene, not polyethylene.=0ARegards=0APeter Morgans =0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Robert Borger <rlborger @mac.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 9 November 201 3, 19:54=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination=0A =0A=0A--> E uropa-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>=0A=0AAndrew, =0A=0ATwo questions:=0A=0A1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn=99t =0Afried?=0A=0A2. What is the timing on proce dure?=0A=0AI have my new tank almost ready to install.=C2- Just a few mor e supports =0Ato make up and the tank will be ready to go back in.=0A=0ABlu e skies & tailwinds,=0ABob Borger=0AEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.=0ALittle Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP=0A370 5 Lynchburg Dr.=0ACorinth, TX=C2- 76208-5331=0ACel: 817-992-1117=0Arlborg er@mac.com=0A=0AOn Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gma il.com> wrote:=0A=0ALooking through the email archives, there seem to be so me=0Amisunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE). =0AIt is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I=0Ad on't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the=0Arotomold ing process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with=0Apolyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice.=0A=0AWeather it is L DPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is=0Agreat with gasolin e. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it=0Aas "Limited Compatibi lity" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C.=0AGranted, liquids don't heat u p quickly, but over a full hot summer=0Aweek, 40C may not be unrealistic. I t would be interesting to examine=0Aif the tank failures have come mostly f rom warmer climates.=0A=0AThere have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank=0Athat could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene=0Ashould only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative=0Aof a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf f or over=0A12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it fel t=0Awaxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the=0At ank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of=0Athis po ints to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably=0Aeven more important in hot climates.=0A=0AI was also told by Fluoroseal that automoti ve level coating is=0Agenerally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level o f coating is the=0Amain reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank. - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- ==================


    Message 19


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    Time: 05:50:06 PM PST US
    From: "Rob Housman" <rob@hyperion-ef.com>
    Subject: Fuel tank fluorination
    I suggest that you re-think your sequence. Perhaps you scheme will actually get the tank clean but since both acetone and isopropyl alcohol are polar solvents they won't do a thing to remove oils which are by definition non-polar. Water is another rather well known polar solvent and I'm certain that you realize that water alone won't remove the oils. A lighter non-polar solvent (such as paint thinner) will get the oils out and then the detergent (polar at one end of the molecule and non-polar at the other end) in water will get rid of the residue. Acetone will do a nice job of gathering up the water after getting rid of the oils. The fabric softener will probably adhere nicely to the tank's surface (that's how it works). In the spirit of the old adage about being better safe than sorry, I must point out that gasoline is also a non-polar solvent and some folks have been known to set themselves on fire using it as an oil removing solvent. I would not expect anyone on this list to try for a Darwin Award, so I probably did not even need to mention this. Best regards, Rob Housman Europa XS A070 Rotax 914 Airframe complete Avionics a work in progress -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination Bob Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be removed. That is about all they said. Apparently these items can 'burn' in fluorine and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank first with dishwashing detergent and fabric softener. This reduces static cling and allows the fine powdery plastic to be flushed out. I got a surprising amount of particles come out even after I had vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on plugging the holes with cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, drain it, and then repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and IPA dehydrates all surfaces. That's my plan anyway. Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the automotive-level fluorination process, so it depends on when we deliver the parts there, and what they have in their pipeline. But they said it shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 weeks. My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But if you are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait. On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote: > > Andrew, > > Two questions: > > 1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn't > fried? > > 2. What is the timing on procedure? > > I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports > to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in. > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com > > On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote: > > Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some > misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE). > It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I > don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the > rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with > polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice. > > Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is > great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it > as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C. > Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer > week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine > if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates. > > There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank > that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene > should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative > of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over > 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt > waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the > tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of > this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably > even more important in hot climates. > > I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is > generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the > main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank. > >


    Message 20


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    Time: 06:26:34 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Weight and Balance
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>


    Message 21


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    Time: 06:36:52 PM PST US
    From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank fluorination
    I am not a chemist, but I am certain acetone is a dipolar solvent - it works for polar as well as some nonpolar liquids. I use it for removing oils, lubricants, glue and paint. On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:34 PM, Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> wrote: > > I suggest that you re-think your sequence. Perhaps you scheme will actually > get the tank clean but since both acetone and isopropyl alcohol are polar > solvents they won't do a thing to remove oils which are by definition > non-polar. Water is another rather well known polar solvent and I'm certain > that you realize that water alone won't remove the oils. A lighter > non-polar solvent (such as paint thinner) will get the oils out and then the > detergent (polar at one end of the molecule and non-polar at the other end) > in water will get rid of the residue. Acetone will do a nice job of > gathering up the water after getting rid of the oils. The fabric softener > will probably adhere nicely to the tank's surface (that's how it works). > > In the spirit of the old adage about being better safe than sorry, I must > point out that gasoline is also a non-polar solvent and some folks have been > known to set themselves on fire using it as an oil removing solvent. I > would not expect anyone on this list to try for a Darwin Award, so I > probably did not even need to mention this. > > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > Europa XS A070 > Rotax 914 > Airframe complete > Avionics a work in progress > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 3:58 PM > To: Europa List > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank fluorination > > > Bob > > Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be removed. > That is about all they said. Apparently these items can 'burn' in fluorine > and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank first with dishwashing > detergent and fabric softener. This reduces static cling and allows the fine > powdery plastic to be flushed out. I got a surprising amount of particles > come out even after I had vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on > plugging the holes with cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, > drain it, and then repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and > IPA dehydrates all surfaces. That's my plan anyway. > > Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the automotive-level > fluorination process, so it depends on when we deliver the parts there, and > what they have in their pipeline. But they said it shouldn't be more than 1 > or 2 weeks. > > My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But if you > are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait. > > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote: >> >> Andrew, >> >> Two questions: >> >> 1. What is the recommended cleaning procedure to ensure the tank isn't >> fried? >> >> 2. What is the timing on procedure? >> >> I have my new tank almost ready to install. Just a few more supports >> to make up and the tank will be ready to go back in. >> >> Blue skies & tailwinds, >> Bob Borger >> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. >> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP >> 3705 Lynchburg Dr. >> Corinth, TX 76208-5331 >> Cel: 817-992-1117 >> rlborger@mac.com >> >> On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Looking through the email archives, there seem to be some >> misunderstanding on what the tank is made of. It is polyethylene (PE). >> It is definitely not PTFE (Teflon) or nylon as some had suggested. I >> don't know why polyethylene was chosen, but my guess is it is the >> rotomolding process itself. The majority of rotomolding is done with >> polyethylene so that may have been the most cost-effective choice. >> >> Weather it is LDPE (Low density polyethylene) or HDPE, neither one is >> great with gasoline. Assuming it is LDPE, the attached chart lists it >> as "Limited Compatibility" at 20C and "Not Satisfactory" at 60C. >> Granted, liquids don't heat up quickly, but over a full hot summer >> week, 40C may not be unrealistic. It would be interesting to examine >> if the tank failures have come mostly from warmer climates. >> >> There have also been discussions about inadequate support of the tank >> that could lead to tank failures. This is true, but polyethylene >> should only yield under stress, not crack. Cracking is more indicative >> of a brittle material. My tank has been sitting on the shelf for over >> 12 years and when I was drilling out the bosses this week, it felt >> waxy and ductile, not hard and brittle. So it is not the age of the >> tank that makes it brittle. It is the exposure to gasoline. All of >> this points to the importance of a good barrier coating, and probably >> even more important in hot climates. >> >> I was also told by Fluoroseal that automotive level coating is >> generally not done in Europe. Not knowing the level of coating is the >> main reason I am pursuing a second coating on my tank. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 08:20:27 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank fluorination
    From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Andrew, Let me acquire the necessary agents and get it clean and Ill get back with you for a mailing address. Should have it done by Tuesday. With any luck, it could by at your place by Friday or Monday. While the tank is off for treatment, I guess Ill have to find other things to do for a while. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Nov 9, 2013, at 5:57 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> wrote: Bob Regarding cleaning, all traces of oil, paper and water has to be removed. That is about all they said. Apparently these items can 'burn' in fluorine and cause damage. I am flushing the whole tank first with dishwashing detergent and fabric softener. This reduces static cling and allows the fine powdery plastic to be flushed out. I got a surprising amount of particles come out even after I had vacuumed everything inside. Then I plan on plugging the holes with cork and shake the tank with a gallon of acetone, drain it, and then repeat with isopolyl alcohol. Acetone removes oils and IPA dehydrates all surfaces. That's my plan anyway. Regarding timeline, apparently they don't always run the automotive-level fluorination process, so it depends on when we deliver the parts there, and what they have in their pipeline. But they said it shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 weeks. My plan is to drive my tank over there sometime this coming week. But if you are interesting in joining, I am willing to wait.




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