Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:14 AM - Re: Saggy outriggers (Richard Lamprey)
2. 03:51 AM - sight gauge alternative (Rowland Carson)
3. 04:40 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
4. 05:11 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Rowland Carson)
5. 05:39 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Peter Zutrauen)
6. 06:04 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Jan de Jong)
7. 06:37 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Jan de Jong)
8. 08:29 AM - Re: More Mod 78 Fun! (Peter Zutrauen)
9. 09:14 AM - Re: Mono dolly (Mike Gamble)
10. 09:19 AM - Re: Mono dolly (Mike Gamble)
11. 09:26 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Andrew Sarangan)
12. 09:50 AM - Re: Mono dolly (Fred Klein)
13. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: Saggy outriggers (Fred Klein)
14. 10:57 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Jan de Jong)
15. 11:26 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
16. 12:21 PM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Jan de Jong)
17. 01:36 PM - Painting Main Landing Gear (jglazener)
18. 01:46 PM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Jan de Jong)
19. 10:42 PM - Re: sight gauge alternative (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Saggy outriggers |
Thanks Fred, I can pay you by Western Union, when you are ready.
I think for all of us fitting these to completed/ flying Europas, it will be essential
to jack the plane up and do quite a few retractions to see that all is
in order.
Best
Richard
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414381#414381
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| Subject: | sight gauge alternative |
I was originally going to use Tony K's conditioning and display circuit.
Tim Houlihan had planned to do the same, but we couldn't get the various
bits to behave sensibly (RS-232 & Windows issues, as I remember). Tim
switched allegiance to the MGL display device and got another friend to
design a conditioning amplifier to interface the the RS sensor to it.
I've now adopted the same approach and attached are some PDFs and a JPEG
that show what I did (op-amp circuit, stripboard layout, MGL wiring,
sensor & amplifier in box). As it's not installed yet, I can't offer
proof of function but I know Tim's works fine. The only potential
problem is ram air pressure on the forward-facing tank vents causing
change of reading with airspeed. I intend to avoid that by using Graham
Singleton's vent arrangement.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
Rowland=0Aisn't my vent system effectively the same as the factory setup? T
here will still be a +ve pressure on the tank.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____
___________________________=0A From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.co
m>=0ATo: Europa e-mail list list <europa-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Thurs
day, 28 November 2013, 11:50=0ASubject: Europa-List: sight gauge alternativ
e=0A =0A=0AI was originally going to use Tony K's conditioning and display
circuit. Tim Houlihan had planned to do the same, but we couldn't get the v
arious bits to behave sensibly (RS-232 & Windows issues, as I remember). Ti
m switched allegiance to the MGL display device and got another friend to d
esign a conditioning amplifier to interface the the RS sensor to it.=0A=0AI
've now adopted the same approach and attached are some PDFs and a JPEG tha
t show what I did (op-amp circuit, stripboard layout, MGL wiring, sensor &
amplifier in box). As it's not installed yet, I can't offer proof of functi
on but I know Tim's works fine. The only potential problem is ram air press
ure on the forward-facing tank vents causing change of reading with airspee
d. I intend to avoid that by using Graham Singleton's vent arrangement.=0A
=0Ain friendship=0A=0ARowland=0A=0A| Rowland Carson- - - - - ...
that's Rowland with a 'w' ...=0A| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>- - - -
- - http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk=0A| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson
- - - Facebook: Rowland Carson=0A| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.
com/rowlandcarson
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
On 28 Nov 2013, at 12:40, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
> isn't my vent system effectively the same as the factory setup? There will still
be a +ve pressure on the tank.
Graham - thanks for pointing that out. Until now, I hadn't noticed the forward-pointing
section at the end of the ultimate vent in your diagram as posted here
yesterday. I had assumed the vent would finish with a section pointing vertically
down (somewhere in the flap root area?) so as to generate neither positive
nor negative pressure, but probably cut off at an angle to prevent whistles.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
I would suggest updating the cct/system to work on proper differential
pressures - then venting isn't an issue. Ideally it would also incorporate
a g-sensor such that a prolonged turn doesn't affect the fuel level reading
(assuming there is some shorter duration filtering to deal with
turbulence), and a switch to select avgas/mogas densities. I was planning
on implementing such a system when the time came. I was also planning on a
vertical aluminum tube gauge on the outside of the tank containing a
magnetic float which triggered external level switches lighting up a simple
led gauge - as a backup and in lieu of the sight-gauge.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
>
> On 28 Nov 2013, at 12:40, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
>
> > isn't my vent system effectively the same as the factory setup? There
> will still be a +ve pressure on the tank.
>
> Graham - thanks for pointing that out. Until now, I hadn't noticed the
> forward-pointing section at the end of the ultimate vent in your diagram as
> posted here yesterday. I had assumed the vent would finish with a section
> pointing vertically down (somewhere in the flap root area?) so as to
> generate neither positive nor negative pressure, but probably cut off at an
> angle to prevent whistles.
>
> in friendship
>
> Rowland
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
This is what I saved a few years ago as a message to self.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
Curious about Peter's density difference of mogas and avgas I found:
From
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/api-gravity-d_1212.html
I get: s.g. = 141.5 / (API + 131.5)
From
http://armyquartermaster.tpub.com/qm5203/qm52030011.htm
I get:
avgas API 60 - 76, s.g.: 0.682 - 0.739
mogas API 54 - 63, s.g.: 0.728 - 0.763
maximum + / - differences: + 11.8 %, -1.5 %
on average mogas is about 5 % heavier but there is overlap
Ranges may be tighter in current practice, would require more study.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: More Mod 78 Fun! |
Hi Dave,
Sorry to hear of your fitment challenges RRD indeed!
Just curious if you heard back from Charlie regarding his ballpark figure?
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 10:15 PM, djaflyact <djaflyact@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Today, I have determined that the next wing to go into the fuselage will
> not work. I made a board the right thickness and did a trial run. It looked
> like it it wasn't going to fit and the board verified. The problem is the
> aileron control arm bolts (CS08). It looks like it might clear the CS08
> arm, but not the bolt heads.
>
> There are some possibilities to address this new problem. Replace the AN
> bolts with counter sunk screws. That might not be enough and the CS08
> bracket might be too close to the spar.
>
> How about bending (adjusting) the CS08 bracket? The starboard CS08 has
> plenty of clearance and could be bent forward to allow more clearance of
> the cross link with the fuel tank. The port S08 could be bent toward the
> rear to allow more clearance to the new spar. It has plenty of clearance
> with the fuel tank.
>
> Anybody know if the CS08 arms can be removed? That would make modifying
> them easier. Any ideas for tweaking them in place?
>
> As Rozanna Rozanna Danna used to say - "If its not one thing, its
> something else!"
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave
> A227
> Mini U2
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414373#414373
>
>
Message 9
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Thanks Fred. Is that your interpretation of Steve's design, ie without
welding?
Message 10
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Thank you Steve. That has given me something to think about - just a bit worried
about the welding but maybe I can bolt it up.
Mike Gamble
G-CFMP
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
Peter
By proper differential pressure I assume you meant on one side there
will be the fluid pressure, and on the other side there will be tank
air pressure. I gathered from Paul's email that he did exactly this by
running the tank vent line to the sensor, but still sees a lag during
climbs and descents. This is most likely due to the large tank volume
and the small diameter of the vent tube. So it would matter exactly
where the vent line is teed off to go to the sensor. Closer to the
tank is better. In any case, this delay is likely to be
inconsequential because most of the spam cans I fly are only required
to have a reliable level indicator when the tank is really empty.
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
> I would suggest updating the cct/system to work on proper differential
> pressures - then venting isn't an issue. Ideally it would also incorporate a
> g-sensor such that a prolonged turn doesn't affect the fuel level reading
> (assuming there is some shorter duration filtering to deal with turbulence),
> and a switch to select avgas/mogas densities. I was planning on implementing
> such a system when the time came. I was also planning on a vertical aluminum
> tube gauge on the outside of the tank containing a magnetic float which
> triggered external level switches lighting up a simple led gauge - as a
> backup and in lieu of the sight-gauge.
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
> A239
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
>>
>> On 28 Nov 2013, at 12:40, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
>>
>> > isn't my vent system effectively the same as the factory setup? There
>> > will still be a +ve pressure on the tank.
>>
>> Graham - thanks for pointing that out. Until now, I hadn't noticed the
>> forward-pointing section at the end of the ultimate vent in your diagram as
>> posted here yesterday. I had assumed the vent would finish with a section
>> pointing vertically down (somewhere in the flap root area?) so as to
>> generate neither positive nor negative pressure, but probably cut off at an
>> angle to prevent whistles.
>>
>> in friendship
>>
>> Rowland
>>
>> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
>> | <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
>> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
>> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> et="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>> "_blank">www.mrrace.com
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> le, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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On Nov 28, 2013, at 9:13 AM, Mike Gamble wrote:
> Thanks Fred. Is that your interpretation of Steve=92s design, ie
without welding?
Mike...my interpretation for sure...I separated the dolly wheels a bit
more for added stability...those slotted framing extrusions are kinda
spendy so I substituted 3 x 3 sq tubing where possible, but fully welded
per Steve's design...I fitted and cleco'ed everything then gave it to my
welder who charged me $30. for 15 minutes work max.
Fred
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Saggy outriggers |
On Nov 28, 2013, at 3:13 AM, Richard Lamprey wrote:
> I think for all of us fitting these to completed/ flying Europas, it
will be essential to jack the plane up and do quite a few retractions to
see that all is in order.
Richard,
Certainly a prudent suggestion. Though my bird has yet to fly, my
workshop allows for full assembly and that's exactly what I did.
I would emphasize that my outrigger retraction/deployment mechanism was
fitted exactly as per plans and I did NOT do any filing or nibbling to
bolt holes or slots in OR 5 (or other components) in the original
assembly or in any adventurous attempts to eliminate the sag of the
outriggers.
Fred
PS: Here in the US we're in the midst of the Thanksgiving holiday...last
nite I learned from my machinist's father that he's away for a few
days...so I won't be getting cost confirmation and delivery time for a
bit.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
I don't know whether it was mentioned but the aircraft attitude will
always have an influence on the fuel level reading.
The less one succeeds in mounting the sensor right below the center of
the tank the larger the influence.
One could measure pitch and do calibrations at several values and
interpolate.
I think that goes too far.
I don't believe the shape and size of the vent has any influence - the
air in the vent line(s) hardly moves.
Regards,
Jan de Jong
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
=0AI don't believe the shape and size of the vent has any influence - the a
ir in the vent line(s) hardly moves.=0A=0ARegards,=0AJan de Jong=0A=0ABut i
t does have a pressure. That's what we are measuring=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casem
a.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, 28 November 2013,
18:57=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: sight gauge alternative=0A =0A=0A--> Euro
pa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>=0A=0AI don't
know whether it was mentioned but the aircraft attitude will always have a
n influence on the fuel level reading.=0AThe less one succeeds in mounting
the sensor right below the center of the tank the larger the influence.=0AO
ne could measure pitch and do calibrations at several values and interpolat
e.=0AI think that goes too far.=0AI don't believe the shape and size of the
vent has any influence - the air in the vent line(s) hardly moves.=0A=0ARe
=================
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
What you hope to measure is the difference in hydrostatic pressure
caused by the "column" of fluid in the tank and the same "column" of air
outside the tank.
Almost any connection from sensor to the top of the tank with not-moving
air in it will do, just like with pitot, static and stall warner lines.
Non-moving means no friction pressure drop.
Jan
On 11/28/2013 8:25 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
>
> I don't believe the shape and size of the vent has any influence - the
> air in the vent line(s) hardly moves.
>
> Regards,
> Jan de Jong
>
> But it does have a pressure. That's what we are measuring
> Graham
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, 28 November 2013, 18:57
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: sight gauge alternative
>
> <mailto:jan_de_jong@casema.nl>>
>
> I don't know whether it was mentioned but the aircraft attitude will
> always have an influence on the fuel level reading.
> The less one succeeds in mounting the sensor right below the center of
> the tank the larger the influence.
> One could measure pitch and do calibrations at several values and
> interpolate.
> I think that goes too far.
> I don't believe the shape and size of the vent has any influence - the
> air in the vent line(s) hardly moves.
>
> -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
> Gifts!)http://www.matronics.com/contrsp; -Matt Dralle,
> List Admin.
> > http://forums.matronics=================
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> *
>
> *
Message 17
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| Subject: | Painting Main Landing Gear |
The MLG legs as provided by Europa have a black coating. Is this some kind of corrosion
protection, or do the legs need to be painted even if covered with a
speed kit?
If so, what kind of paint is recommended? Does the black coating have to be removed
and what is the best way to do that?
--------
Jeroen
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414413#414413
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
Hi Graham,
I should have added: overpressure at the top of the tank will be applied
equally to both "columns" and have no influence on the measured difference.
(I am assuming that the overpressure does not measurably change the
density of the air "column").
Jan
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauge alternative |
You're right Jan, I didnm't think it through=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______
_________________________=0A From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>=0ATo
: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, 28 November 2013, 20:39=0ASu
bject: Re: Europa-List: sight gauge alternative=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List me
ssage posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>=0A=0AHi Graham,=0AI sh
ould have added: overpressure at the top of the tank will be applied equall
y to both "columns" and have no influence on the measured difference.=0A(I
am assuming that the overpressure does not measurably change the density of
=================
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