---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/30/13: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:40 AM - [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:44 AM - Re: sight gauge alternative (Remi Guerner) 2. 05:05 AM - Europa office (David Joyce) 3. 05:12 AM - Re: Europa office (Donald Cameron) 4. 05:25 AM - Re: Europa office (David Joyce) 5. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: sight gauge alternative (Jan de Jong) 6. 08:11 AM - Re: Europa office (Christoph Both) 7. 10:29 AM - Re: Re: sight gauge alternative (Bob Harrison) 8. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: sight gauge alternative (Karl Heindl) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:30 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! Dear Listers, It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again; the big 50, in fact! But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!! If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting it off for some reason, NOW is the time! I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want to be known as a person that supported the Lists! I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running and I don't ever forget it. The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making your Contribution right now: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you to all in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:51 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: sight gauge alternative From: "Remi Guerner" Hi all, I am following this post - and previous discussions on fuel flow sensors and fuel computers- with amusement as it seems to me that all this high tech stuff needs a lot of attention and may be less reliable than the old fashioned equipment they want to replace. It is true that float type fuel gauges in the typical wing fuel tank are not accurate nor reliable. This is mainly due to the flat shape of the tank were a small height error makes a big volume error. I remember when flying Cessnas the gauges were only rough indicators that there were some fuel on board, and were useless in flight as they were looking like windshield wipers at the lightest turbulence. The Europa fuel tank geometry, being all in height, makes it a lot easier to accurately gauge the fuel quantity. My aircraft was originally fitted with an Avelec capacitive gauge with a digital indicator. It was giving a false sense of a great accuracy due to the digital display, but the indication was varying with the type of fuel used. After about 200 hours it started to give random indications and finally failed completely. I decided to replace it with an old fashioned resistive, float type with an analog indicator. This Jaeger unit is used on Robin DR400 type certificated aircraft. I had to weld an extension to the oscillating arm to take into account the unusual height of the tank. The fuel quantity accuracy and repeatability are very good. They are not visibly affected by the attitude of the aircraft and when refueling I can predict the quantity to be added to top the tank by a few liters. Additionally there is a low fuel switch integrated into the probe system which illuminates a warning light when the fuel remaining is 1.5 liters. Then I know I had better to switch to the reserve side. My back up is my watch: flight time and a conservative calculation using the maximum cruise fuel flow. This system has been working fine for me for 10 years and 800 hours..... without any fancy electronic chip, computers etc... Remi Guerner F-PGKL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414635#414635 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:01 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Europa office From: David Joyce Does anyone know why Europa HQ have not been answering the phone for the last two weeks? Rgds David Sent from the iPad of David Joyce www.eastmidsspas.com > On 28 Nov 2013, at 17:25, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > > Peter > By proper differential pressure I assume you meant on one side there > will be the fluid pressure, and on the other side there will be tank > air pressure. I gathered from Paul's email that he did exactly this by > running the tank vent line to the sensor, but still sees a lag during > climbs and descents. This is most likely due to the large tank volume > and the small diameter of the vent tube. So it would matter exactly > where the vent line is teed off to go to the sensor. Closer to the > tank is better. In any case, this delay is likely to be > inconsequential because most of the spam cans I fly are only required > to have a reliable level indicator when the tank is really empty. > > > > >> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: >> I would suggest updating the cct/system to work on proper differential >> pressures - then venting isn't an issue. Ideally it would also incorporate a >> g-sensor such that a prolonged turn doesn't affect the fuel level reading >> (assuming there is some shorter duration filtering to deal with turbulence), >> and a switch to select avgas/mogas densities. I was planning on implementing >> such a system when the time came. I was also planning on a vertical aluminum >> tube gauge on the outside of the tank containing a magnetic float which >> triggered external level switches lighting up a simple led gauge - as a >> backup and in lieu of the sight-gauge. >> >> Cheers, >> Pete >> A239 >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Rowland Carson >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 28 Nov 2013, at 12:40, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >>>> >>>> isn't my vent system effectively the same as the factory setup? There >>>> will still be a +ve pressure on the tank. >>> >>> Graham - thanks for pointing that out. Until now, I hadn't noticed the >>> forward-pointing section at the end of the ultimate vent in your diagram as >>> posted here yesterday. I had assumed the vent would finish with a section >>> pointing vertically down (somewhere in the flap root area?) so as to >>> generate neither positive nor negative pressure, but probably cut off at an >>> angle to prevent whistles. >>> >>> in friendship >>> >>> Rowland >>> >>> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >>> | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >>> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >>> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson >>> >>> >>> >>> ========== >>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >>> et="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com >>> "_blank">www.mrrace.com >>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> le, List Admin. >>> ========== >>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>> ========== >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> ========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa office From: Donald Cameron Hi David Karen is away on holiday, she is back to work on Monday 2nd December. I believe if it was urgent people could phone the aircraft team in norwich o n tel:01603262301 Was advertised on europa webpage and in any email correspondence that came f rom Karen. Kind regards Donald Sent from my iPhone On 30 Nov 2013, at 13:04, David Joyce wrote: > > > Does anyone know why Europa HQ have not been answering the phone for the l ast two weeks? > > Rgds > David > > Sent from the iPad of David Joyce > www.eastmidsspas.com > >> On 28 Nov 2013, at 17:25, Andrew Sarangan wrote: >> >> >> Peter >> By proper differential pressure I assume you meant on one side there >> will be the fluid pressure, and on the other side there will be tank >> air pressure. I gathered from Paul's email that he did exactly this by >> running the tank vent line to the sensor, but still sees a lag during >> climbs and descents. This is most likely due to the large tank volume >> and the small diameter of the vent tube. So it would matter exactly >> where the vent line is teed off to go to the sensor. Closer to the >> tank is better. In any case, this delay is likely to be >> inconsequential because most of the spam cans I fly are only required >> to have a reliable level indicator when the tank is really empty. >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen w rote: >>> I would suggest updating the cct/system to work on proper differential >>> pressures - then venting isn't an issue. Ideally it would also incorpora te a >>> g-sensor such that a prolonged turn doesn't affect the fuel level readin g >>> (assuming there is some shorter duration filtering to deal with turbulen ce), >>> and a switch to select avgas/mogas densities. I was planning on implemen ting >>> such a system when the time came. I was also planning on a vertical alum inum >>> tube gauge on the outside of the tank containing a magnetic float which >>> triggered external level switches lighting up a simple led gauge - as a >>> backup and in lieu of the sight-gauge. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Pete >>> A239 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Rowland Carson >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 28 Nov 2013, at 12:40, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >>>>> >>>>> isn't my vent system effectively the same as the factory setup? There >>>>> will still be a +ve pressure on the tank. >>>> >>>> Graham - thanks for pointing that out. Until now, I hadn't noticed the >>>> forward-pointing section at the end of the ultimate vent in your diagra m as >>>> posted here yesterday. I had assumed the vent would finish with a secti on >>>> pointing vertically down (somewhere in the flap root area?) so as to >>>> generate neither positive nor negative pressure, but probably cut off a t an >>>> angle to prevent whistles. >>>> >>>> in friendship >>>> >>>> Rowland >>>> >>>> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >>>> | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >>>> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >>>> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ========== >>>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >>>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >>>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >>>> et="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com >>>> "_blank">www.mrrace.com >>>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> le, List Admin. >>>> ========== >>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>>> ========== >>>> http://forums.matronics.com >>>> ========== > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa office From: David Joyce Thanks Donald, I will have a look in my loft when I get home, I think I have an old answering machine that you can record a message on, and send it to M r Swift. It would be a pleasure to give something back to the mothership ;-) Rgds David Sent from the iPad of David Joyce www.eastmidsspas.com > On 30 Nov 2013, at 13:11, Donald Cameron wrote: > > Hi David > > Karen is away on holiday, she is back to work on Monday 2nd December. > > I believe if it was urgent people could phone the aircraft team in norwich on tel:01603262301 > > Was advertised on europa webpage and in any email correspondence that came from Karen. > > Kind regards > Donald > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 30 Nov 2013, at 13:04, David Joyce wrote: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know why Europa HQ have not been answering the phone for the l ast two weeks? >> >> Rgds >> David >> >> Sent from the iPad of David Joyce >> www.eastmidsspas.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:16 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: sight gauge alternative Hi Remi, The unspoken issue that fuels the discussion is the desire to avoid cutting a hole in the tank. Ofcourse, Bob Harrison thinks a large hole is of the essence to allow yearly cleaning.. Jan de Jong On 11/30/2013 1:44 PM, Remi Guerner wrote: > > Hi all, > I am following this post - and previous discussions on fuel flow sensors and fuel computers- with amusement as it seems to me that all this high tech stuff needs a lot of attention and may be less reliable than the old fashioned equipment they want to replace. It is true that float type fuel gauges in the typical wing fuel tank are not accurate nor reliable. This is mainly due to the flat shape of the tank were a small height error makes a big volume error. I remember when flying Cessnas the gauges were only rough indicators that there were some fuel on board, and were useless in flight as they were looking like windshield wipers at the lightest turbulence. The Europa fuel tank geometry, being all in height, makes it a lot easier to accurately gauge the fuel quantity. My aircraft was originally fitted with an Avelec capacitive gauge with a digital indicator. It was giving a false sense of a great accuracy due to the digital display, but the indication was varying with the ! > type of fuel used. After about 200 hours it started to give random indications and finally failed completely. I decided to replace it with an old fashioned resistive, float type with an analog indicator. This Jaeger unit is used on Robin DR400 type certificated aircraft. I had to weld an extension to the oscillating arm to take into account the unusual height of the tank. The fuel quantity accuracy and repeatability are very good. They are not visibly affected by the attitude of the aircraft and when refueling I can predict the quantity to be added to top the tank by a few liters. Additionally there is a low fuel switch integrated into the probe system which illuminates a warning light when the fuel remaining is 1.5 liters. Then I know I had better to switch to the reserve side. My back up is my watch: flight time and a conservative calculation using the maximum cruise fuel flow. This system has been working fine for me for 10 years and 800 hours..... without any fancy elec! > tronic chip, computers etc... > Remi Guerner > F-PGKL > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:08 AM PST US From: Christoph Both Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa office Karen is on holidays until Dec 2. Christoph Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 30, 2013, at 5:05, "David Joyce" wrote: > > > > Does anyone know why Europa HQ have not been answering the phone for the last two weeks? > > Rgds > David > > Sent from the iPad of David Joyce > www.eastmidsspas.com > >> On 28 Nov 2013, at 17:25, Andrew Sarangan wrote: >> >> >> Peter >> By proper differential pressure I assume you meant on one side there >> will be the fluid pressure, and on the other side there will be tank >> air pressure. I gathered from Paul's email that he did exactly this by >> running the tank vent line to the sensor, but still sees a lag during >> climbs and descents. This is most likely due to the large tank volume >> and the small diameter of the vent tube. So it would matter exactly >> where the vent line is teed off to go to the sensor. Closer to the >> tank is better. In any case, this delay is likely to be >> inconsequential because most of the spam cans I fly are only required >> to have a reliable level indicator when the tank is really empty. >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: >>> I would suggest updating the cct/system to work on proper differential >>> pressures - then venting isn't an issue. Ideally it would also incorporate a >>> g-sensor such that a prolonged turn doesn't affect the fuel level reading >>> (assuming there is some shorter duration filtering to deal with turbulence), >>> and a switch to select avgas/mogas densities. I was planning on implementing >>> such a system when the time came. I was also planning on a vertical aluminum >>> tube gauge on the outside of the tank containing a magnetic float which >>> triggered external level switches lighting up a simple led gauge - as a >>> backup and in lieu of the sight-gauge. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Pete >>> A239 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Rowland Carson >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 28 Nov 2013, at 12:40, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >>>>> >>>>> isn't my vent system effectively the same as the factory setup? There >>>>> will still be a +ve pressure on the tank. >>>> >>>> Graham - thanks for pointing that out. Until now, I hadn't noticed the >>>> forward-pointing section at the end of the ultimate vent in your diagram as >>>> posted here yesterday. I had assumed the vent would finish with a section >>>> pointing vertically down (somewhere in the flap root area?) so as to >>>> generate neither positive nor negative pressure, but probably cut off at an >>>> angle to prevent whistles. >>>> >>>> in friendship >>>> >>>> Rowland >>>> >>>> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >>>> | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >>>> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >>>> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ========== >>>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >>>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >>>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >>>> et="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com >>>> "_blank">www.mrrace.com >>>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> le, List Admin. >>>> ========== >>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>>> ========== >>>> http://forums.matronics.com >>>> ========== > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:41 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: sight gauge alternative Hi!Guys Slight correction to that statement:-the large hole was for mounting the fuel level probe but it was made sufficiently large to enable a mop out annually because that is the only way you can know what is in there and with the ethanol issue now a fact you can check out the water implication for stress free flight! Regards Bob Harrison G=PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de Jong Sent: 30 November 2013 14:09 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: sight gauge alternative Hi Remi, The unspoken issue that fuels the discussion is the desire to avoid cutting a hole in the tank. Ofcourse, Bob Harrison thinks a large hole is of the essence to allow yearly cleaning.. Jan de Jong On 11/30/2013 1:44 PM, Remi Guerner wrote: > --> > > Hi all, > I am following this post - and previous discussions on fuel flow sensors and fuel computers- with amusement as it seems to me that all this high tech stuff needs a lot of attention and may be less reliable than the old fashioned equipment they want to replace. It is true that float type fuel gauges in the typical wing fuel tank are not accurate nor reliable. This is mainly due to the flat shape of the tank were a small height error makes a big volume error. I remember when flying Cessnas the gauges were only rough indicators that there were some fuel on board, and were useless in flight as they were looking like windshield wipers at the lightest turbulence. The Europa fuel tank geometry, being all in height, makes it a lot easier to accurately gauge the fuel quantity. My aircraft was originally fitted with an Avelec capacitive gauge with a digital indicator. It was giving a false sense of a great accuracy due to the digital display, but the indication was varying with th! e ! > type of fuel used. After about 200 hours it started to give random indications and finally failed completely. I decided to replace it with an old fashioned resistive, float type with an analog indicator. This Jaeger unit is used on Robin DR400 type certificated aircraft. I had to weld an extension to the oscillating arm to take into account the unusual height of the tank. The fuel quantity accuracy and repeatability are very good. They are not visibly affected by the attitude of the aircraft and when refueling I can predict the quantity to be added to top the tank by a few liters. Additionally there is a low fuel switch integrated into the probe system which illuminates a warning light when the fuel remaining is 1.5 liters. Then I know I had better to switch to the reserve side. My back up is my watch: flight time and a conservative calculation using the maximum cruise fuel flow. This system has been working fine for me for 10 years and 800 hours..... without any fancy e! lec! > tronic chip, computers etc... > Remi Guerner > F-PGKL > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:41 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: sight gauge alternative Hi=2C I agree with that 100%. It is obvious that a large but well sealed tank ope ning is a must=2C for inspections and possibly for repairs. I had to instal l two internal braces to put the tank back into shape. Should it ever leak =2C it would be easier to find the leak and repair it without the traumatic tank change that some people had. Karl > From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: sight gauge alternative > Date: Sat=2C 30 Nov 2013 18:28:38 +0000 > > > > Hi!Guys > Slight correction to that statement:-the large hole was for mounting the > fuel level probe but it was made sufficiently large to enable a mop out > annually because that is the only way you can know what is in there and > with the ethanol issue now a fact you can check out the water implication > for stress free flight! > Regards > Bob Harrison G=PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de Jong > Sent: 30 November 2013 14:09 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: sight gauge alternative > > > Hi Remi=2C > > The unspoken issue that fuels the discussion is the desire to avoid cutti ng > a hole in the tank. Ofcourse=2C Bob Harrison thinks a large hole is of th e > essence to allow yearly cleaning.. > > Jan de Jong > > On 11/30/2013 1:44 PM=2C Remi Guerner wrote: > > --> > > > > Hi all=2C > > I am following this post - and previous discussions on fuel flow sensor s > and fuel computers- with amusement as it seems to me that all this high t ech > stuff needs a lot of attention and may be less reliable than the old > fashioned equipment they want to replace. It is true that float type fuel > gauges in the typical wing fuel tank are not accurate nor reliable. This is > mainly due to the flat shape of the tank were a small height error makes a > big volume error. I remember when flying Cessnas the gauges were only rou gh > indicators that there were some fuel on board=2C and were useless in flig ht as > they were looking like windshield wipers at the lightest turbulence. The > Europa fuel tank geometry=2C being all in height=2C makes it a lot easie r to > accurately gauge the fuel quantity. My aircraft was originally fitted wi th > an Avelec capacitive gauge with a digital indicator. It was giving a fals e > sense of a great accuracy due to the digital display=2C but the indicatio n was > varying with th! > e ! > > type of fuel used. After about 200 hours it started to give random > indications and finally failed completely. I decided to replace it with a n > old fashioned resistive=2C float type with an analog indicator. This Jaeg er > unit is used on Robin DR400 type certificated aircraft. I had to weld an > extension to the oscillating arm to take into account the unusual height of > the tank. The fuel quantity accuracy and repeatability are very good. The y > are not visibly affected by the attitude of the aircraft and when refueli ng > I can predict the quantity to be added to top the tank by a few liters. > Additionally there is a low fuel switch integrated into the probe system > which illuminates a warning light when the fuel remaining is 1.5 liters. > Then I know I had better to switch to the reserve side. My back up is my > watch: flight time and a conservative calculation using the maximum cruis e > fuel flow. This system has been working fine for me for 10 years and 800 > hours..... without any fancy e! > lec! > > tronic chip=2C computers etc... > > Remi Guerner > > F-PGKL > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.