Europa-List Digest Archive

Fri 12/06/13


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:50 AM - Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting? (hagargs)
     2. 08:03 AM - Mod 78 News - Good and Bad (djaflyact)
     3. 09:12 AM - Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad (Alan Twigg)
     4. 09:47 AM - Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
     5. 11:16 AM - Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad (Andrew Sarangan)
     6. 12:06 PM - Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting? (Andrew Sarangan)
     7. 12:17 PM - Lines of text too long for monitor (jonathanmilbank)
     8. 02:45 PM - Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting? (Karl Heindl)
     9. 02:59 PM - Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting? (spcialeffects)
    10. 03:26 PM - Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad (Bud Yerly)
    11. 04:03 PM - Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting? (Bud Yerly)
    12. 04:10 PM - Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad (djaflyact)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:50:15 AM PST US
    From: hagargs <hagargs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting?
    Andrew; If I were to do it over again I would form several brackets or pockets of formed fiberglass to hold the tank in place but not be bonded to the tank. Look at the corners of the tank by the tunnel. Brackets formed there would be very stiff because of the 90 degree angle. Forming a contour along the module at the radiused edge of the tank would give lateral support. I also thought that bonding some aluminum angle to the module where the top of the tank's ledge would rest on would be good to inhibit forward and back rocking movements. That foam as a compliant surface is right on the mark where anything touches the tank. All edges of any brackets should be radiused away from the tank so that the edge is pointed away from the tank, Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ -----Original Message----- >From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> >Sent: Dec 5, 2013 11:01 PM >To: Europa List <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Europa-List: Alternative fuel tank mounting? > >I am hoping someone can comment on an alternative tank mounting >strategy. A picture of what I am thinking is attached. > >To avoid any potential stresses developing due to tank expansion, I am >thinking of horizontally bracing the fuel tank against the baggage >bay wall using two fiberglass straps all the way around the tank - one >strap below the tank ledge and the other just above the outlet bosses. >These straps are for simply maintaining the fore/aft and lateral >position of the tank. Vertically, the tank will simply sit on the >fuselage floor. The tank bottom is nearly flush with the baggage bay >floor, so it should sit nice and even on the fuselage. With this >setup, I have satisfactory clearance between the spars, pitch tube and >the tank outlets. I plan to add a thin neoprene pad around the tank >bottom to make sure there are no hard points of contact between the >tank and the fuselage. The neoprene is oil resistant, non-absorbent >and has fire resistance. > >Since this is such an irreversible step, I want to make sure I am >thinking this through correctly. Probably the larger questions are, >will the fuselage floor be able to take the entire tank load? Is there >any issue with letting the top portion of the tank (the ledge) >floating with no vertical support?


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:03:58 AM PST US
    Subject: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad
    From: "djaflyact" <djaflyact@gmail.com>
    Well, I found the problem with interference with my right wing fit. I had forgotten (until I pulled the left wing out again) that I had a swelling fuel tank problem early on in the flying of the airplane. The brackets that hold the tank back worked great - in the area of the bracket, but in between the tank swelled until it rubbed on the aileron cross link between the CS08 arms. My solution at the time was to move one end of the cross link forward of the CS08. That allowed it to clear the tank, but that is now the reason I cannot get the right wing to fit. It has to go back to the original position. I've got two choices: The cross link rubs the fuel tank or the I fly with only one wing. Since there is no reasonable choice there, I think there are also now 2 possibilities: I move the fuel tank wall back or I bend the cross link bar to clear the swollen tank. Right now, I only see the arcing of the cross link as the answer. If it is not straight, it will not be as strong in compression. I doubt the loads are very high, but there is the issue of jammed controls and the ability to provide force in a situation like that. Would I make a contestant arc in the tube? Would I make a joggle in each end so that most of the rod is straight? Would I replace it with steel? Would I fill it with something like epoxy to make it stronger? Can the tank wall be pushed back? I can only imagine coating it with fiberglass or carbon cloth and some sort of hydraulic press holding it while it cures (I doubt this is possible). Has anyone experienced this issue with the fuel tank? Of course, the temperatures here have dropped to 0F at night, which is making progress more difficult. I am getting close, however. Thanks, Dave A227 Mini U2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414977#414977


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:12:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad
    From: Alan Twigg <alan.twigg775@gmail.com>
    Dave, mine is a new build and all is very tight back there with the modified Spar. I am fettling the right wing top surface at the moment but can see I will need to shave some material off the Aileron self connect, I believe I need to anyway to facilitate the main pin. I have a borescope kit and will try to get pictures. regards Alan Twigg Motorglider Mono Kit 463 and getting closer. On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 PM, djaflyact <djaflyact@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well, I found the problem with interference with my right wing fit. I had > forgotten (until I pulled the left wing out again) that I had a swelling > fuel tank problem early on in the flying of the airplane. The brackets that > hold the tank back worked great - in the area of the bracket, but in > between the tank swelled until it rubbed on the aileron cross link between > the CS08 arms. My solution at the time was to move one end of the cross > link forward of the CS08. That allowed it to clear the tank, but that is > now the reason I cannot get the right wing to fit. It has to go back to the > original position. > > I've got two choices: The cross link rubs the fuel tank or the I fly with > only one wing. > > Since there is no reasonable choice there, I think there are also now 2 > possibilities: I move the fuel tank wall back or I bend the cross link bar > to clear the swollen tank. > > Right now, I only see the arcing of the cross link as the answer. If it is > not straight, it will not be as strong in compression. I doubt the loads > are very high, but there is the issue of jammed controls and the ability to > provide force in a situation like that. > > Would I make a contestant arc in the tube? > Would I make a joggle in each end so that most of the rod is straight? > Would I replace it with steel? > Would I fill it with something like epoxy to make it stronger? > Can the tank wall be pushed back? I can only imagine coating it with > fiberglass or carbon cloth and some sort of hydraulic press holding it > while it cures (I doubt this is possible). > > Has anyone experienced this issue with the fuel tank? > > Of course, the temperatures here have dropped to 0F at night, which is > making progress more difficult. I am getting close, however. > > > Thanks, > > Dave > A227 > Mini U2 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414977#414977 > >


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:47:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad
    From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
    Hi Dave Can you just fly with one aileron? I saw a drunk farmers fly like that in both a Piper and Aeronca! Bending aluminium is EZ, but since you have the ball end it will allow your kink to rock up and down. You may get away with it? Don&#39;t try bending in a vise, chance of kinking is far greater than if you drill a hole in a thick piece of wood, like work table or your basement stairs, of course a proper bender is best. Filling with sand can also help prevent kinking. As far as rigidity and keeping things light, thin wall and large OD for a given weight gives you the most bang for your buck. In your case a smaller OD and thicker wall will give you a little more clearance with a slight weight penalty. 4130 is stronger than aluminium, you should even be able to go smaller in OD and if you weld it it can get away without heat treating, again with a slight weight penalty. If your bow idea is not going to work, you could offset your mounting stud on the end of your tube to move forward the front edge of the smaller ID tube as far as you can, this would keep your tube straight. I&#39;m not at my aeroplane, but off the cuff a small OD very thick wall, perhaps even a solid piece of 4130 (see McMaster Carr too for 4130 in addition to ACS and Wicks) and a welded on piece of 4130 that is tapped to give you needed offset, then install in it a threaded stud (tack the far end to keep it from rotating) if you are close you could weld the stud directly to the 4130 and space the ball end slightly aft. I would first rig wings without the pushrod to make sure you can rig. Then screw a piece of metal in place of the pushrod and determine what clearance you have to your spars. Soft aluminium rectangular bar from the hardware store comes to mind. I am doing battle with making sure I can get my flaps to work post 78. I had my son (going to CMU for mechanical engineering) grind some numbers for me as far as the side force exerted when you put a bend in a tube. I used a 4 foot example with the bend occurring at the middle 2 foot point with a 100lb parallel force exerted on the two ends. May give you an idea: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=394508 Ron Parigoris


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:16:52 AM PST US
    From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad
    I am not building mod78, but it sounds to me like a joggle may be better than an arc. Instead of bending, you could weld the joints or use elbow fittings. In any case, I would go with a thick wall tube. I got some of these for linking my autopilot servos. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/alumtube_6061t6.php In any case, I can't envision any scenario where the aileron forces are so strong as to bend a metal tube, unless your passenger is fighting you at the controls :-) Speaking of tank swelling, if your tank is currently dry, you may want to take extra precautions when filling. Most tank failures have occurred exactly in these instances. One option might be to fill it slowly, over several days to allow the tank to slowly expand, before putting much weight on its supports. On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:03 AM, djaflyact <djaflyact@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well, I found the problem with interference with my right wing fit. I had forgotten (until I pulled the left wing out again) that I had a swelling fuel tank problem early on in the flying of the airplane. The brackets that hold the tank back worked great - in the area of the bracket, but in between the tank swelled until it rubbed on the aileron cross link between the CS08 arms. My solution at the time was to move one end of the cross link forward of the CS08. That allowed it to clear the tank, but that is now the reason I cannot get the right wing to fit. It has to go back to the original position. > > I've got two choices: The cross link rubs the fuel tank or the I fly with only one wing. > > Since there is no reasonable choice there, I think there are also now 2 possibilities: I move the fuel tank wall back or I bend the cross link bar to clear the swollen tank. > > Right now, I only see the arcing of the cross link as the answer. If it is not straight, it will not be as strong in compression. I doubt the loads are very high, but there is the issue of jammed controls and the ability to provide force in a situation like that. > > Would I make a contestant arc in the tube? > Would I make a joggle in each end so that most of the rod is straight? > Would I replace it with steel? > Would I fill it with something like epoxy to make it stronger? > Can the tank wall be pushed back? I can only imagine coating it with fiberglass or carbon cloth and some sort of hydraulic press holding it while it cures (I doubt this is possible). > > Has anyone experienced this issue with the fuel tank? > > Of course, the temperatures here have dropped to 0F at night, which is making progress more difficult. I am getting close, however. > > > Thanks, > > Dave > A227 > Mini U2 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414977#414977 > >


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:06:33 PM PST US
    From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting?
    Karl Thank you for the comment. This was my concern too. However, after staring at the canoe floor, I am not so sure if there is really any difference. Even with the standard installation, the majority of the load is borne by on the baggage bay wall, which is eventually bonded to the fuselage floor anyway. The floor where the baggage bay bonds and the floor directly beneath the tank are on the same piece of reinforced foam. So in terms of load, I can't see any difference whether the tank is directly sitting on the canoe floor or if it is supported by the baggage bay which is subsequently supported by the canoe floor. Also, I am also having a hard time understanding why the top ledge of the tank requires a separate support. My measurement says there is only about 2 gallons of fuel here, so 12 lbs is hardly worth bonding with 6 plies of glass for its entire length. If anyone has any insights into this, I'd love to hear. Thank you! On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com> wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > I think you are going out on a limb with this idea. A full tank is a very > heavy load and the fuselage floor is not designed to take this, or the > designers would have placed it on the floor. > The load should be taken up entirely by the cockpit module. > > Karl > > >> From: asarangan@gmail.com >> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 01:01:29 -0500 >> Subject: Europa-List: Alternative fuel tank mounting? >> To: europa-list@matronics.com > >> >> I am hoping someone can comment on an alternative tank mounting >> strategy. A picture of what I am thinking is attached. >> >> To avoid any potential stresses developing due to tank expansion, I am > >> thinking of horizontally bracing the fuel tank against the baggage >> bay wall using two fiberglass straps all the way around the tank - one >> strap below the tank ledge and the other just above the outlet bosses. >> These straps are for simply maintaining the fore/aft and lateral >> position of the tank. Vertically, the tank will simply sit on the >> fuselage floor. The tank bottom is nearly flush with the baggage bay >> floor, so it should sit nice and even on the fuselage. With this >> setup, I have satisfactory clearance between the spars, pitch tube and >> the tank outlets. I plan to add a thin neoprene pad around the tank >> bottom to make sure there are no hard points of contact between the >> tank and the fuselage. The neoprene is oil resistant, non-absorbent >> and has fire resistance. >> >> Since this is such an irreversible step, I want to make sure I am >> thinking this through correctly. Probably the larger questions are, >> will the fuselage floor be able to take the entire tank load? Is there >> any issue with letting the top portion of the tank (the ledge) >> floating with no vertical support? > >


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:17:49 PM PST US
    Subject: Lines of text too long for monitor
    From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
    It happens mostly on this website for me, but occasionally on others, that I need to use the slider at the screen bottom to read each line from one end to the other. I'm a computer "numpty/numbskull/dimwit" and don't understand much, but I'm able to use Control + or Control - or the screen zoom as competently as the next man. Obviously when I "shrinkerize" the text sufficiently to make each line fit, then the text is too minute to read. So what's the story? Is there an incompatibility between the format used by the website and/or contributors to each thread, versus whatever system is employed at my end to read the stuff? Is there a quick and easy and cheap fix? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415003#415003


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:45:25 PM PST US
    From: Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Alternative fuel tank mounting?
    You are right=2C but with the cockpit module and baggage bay assembly the l oad is spread out over a much greater area. If the tank sits on the floor t he actual contact area is probably quite small. Just think of the weight=2C and if you make a hard landing=2Cthe weight is double. Maybe there is a wa y to re-enforce the floor=2C but I would find a qualified engineer to do so me calculations=2C preferably someone from Europa/Swift. karl > From: asarangan@gmail.com > Date: Fri=2C 6 Dec 2013 15:05:23 -0500 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Alternative fuel tank mounting? > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Karl > > Thank you for the comment. This was my concern too. However=2C after > staring at the canoe floor=2C I am not so sure if there is really any > difference. Even with the standard installation=2C the majority of the > load is borne by on the baggage bay wall=2C which is eventually bonded > to the fuselage floor anyway. The floor where the baggage bay bonds > and the floor directly beneath the tank are on the same piece of > reinforced foam. So in terms of load=2C I can't see any difference > whether the tank is directly sitting on the canoe floor or if it is > supported by the baggage bay which is subsequently supported by the > canoe floor. > > Also=2C I am also having a hard time understanding why the top ledge of > the tank requires a separate support. My measurement says there is > only about 2 gallons of fuel here=2C so 12 lbs is hardly worth bonding > with 6 plies of glass for its entire length. > > If anyone has any insights into this=2C I'd love to hear. > > Thank you! > > > > > > On Fri=2C Dec 6=2C 2013 at 1:42 AM=2C Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com> wrote : > > Hi Andrew=2C > > > > I think you are going out on a limb with this idea. A full tank is a ve ry > > heavy load and the fuselage floor is not designed to take this=2C or th e > > designers would have placed it on the floor. > > The load should be taken up entirely by the cockpit module. > > > > Karl > > > > > > > >> From: asarangan@gmail.com > >> Date: Fri=2C 6 Dec 2013 01:01:29 -0500 > >> Subject: Europa-List: Alternative fuel tank mounting? > >> To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > >> > >> I am hoping someone can comment on an alternative tank mounting > >> strategy. A picture of what I am thinking is attached. > >> > >> To avoid any potential stresses developing due to tank expansion=2C I am > > > >> thinking of horizontally bracing the fuel tank against the baggage > >> bay wall using two fiberglass straps all the way around the tank - one > >> strap below the tank ledge and the other just above the outlet bosses. > >> These straps are for simply maintaining the fore/aft and lateral > >> position of the tank. Vertically=2C the tank will simply sit on the > >> fuselage floor. The tank bottom is nearly flush with the baggage bay > >> floor=2C so it should sit nice and even on the fuselage. With this > >> setup=2C I have satisfactory clearance between the spars=2C pitch tube and > >> the tank outlets. I plan to add a thin neoprene pad around the tank > >> bottom to make sure there are no hard points of contact between the > >> tank and the fuselage. The neoprene is oil resistant=2C non-absorbent > >> and has fire resistance. > >> > >> Since this is such an irreversible step=2C I want to make sure I am > >> thinking this through correctly. Probably the larger questions are=2C > >> will the fuselage floor be able to take the entire tank load? Is there > >> any issue with letting the top portion of the tank (the ledge) > >> floating with no vertical support? > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:59:09 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting?
    From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects@aol.com>
    So this is the stage that im at in my build and have been putting off bonding in the tank as so many have been reported to have split recently. Bud yearly has produced a solution fix using 1/8' cork but the three main things i have put to the top of my list to stop my tank from having problems later on are.. firstly before bonding in the tank fill with fuel and leave in for as long as possible so that the tank expands and trust me mine grew on the back wall were the fuel comes in from the cobra by about 1/2'. Secondly bond the tank into the module when it is in this expanded state but dont bond the glass to the tank. Put some sort of release agent on the tank so that when the tank shrinks back to its original size the glass would have already set at the tanks maximum size and this then leaves the "room" for the expansion and contraction of the tank later on, and finally once the plane is up and flying dont leave the tank dry keep it at least half full. When i bond in my tank which im hoping to do next week i also want to make a cradle of it to sit in like another builder has done on the europa owners site. his photo is attached. Just my two pence worth but may be some use. Regards Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415015#415015 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/311131313_189.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/3113_126.jpg


    Message 10


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:26:08 PM PST US
    From: "Bud Yerly" <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad
    Dave, I have not experienced your problem with the cross link rod rubbing the tank. Most probably your tank was installed a bit forward but it probably did swell as you indicate. In 13 cockpit module builds I have always had 1/2 inch clearance and never had a tank rub even after 5 years of flying. Years ago I noticed a plane that came in with a rubbing rod but the tank was put in a bit askew and the aft bulkhead was pulled in 1/2 inch. If the tank did not break its bond with the back wall or saddle then it is really bowing quite a bit. Armed with that bit of information and not wanting to replace the tank, can you build another tank bracket to ease the bulge back in the saddle area? It is a nasty hole to work in for sure, and the modded spars really hog the room. What I am thinking is a flat aluminum plate of stiff 6061T6 aluminimum 1/8 by say 3 inches and make a U shape around the spars and pushing up against the tank bulge. Not being able to see your aircraft, this is a wild assed guess. I had no problem clearing the bolt heads by countersinking and using AN 509 416R20 screws to replace the AN 4 bolts. Countersinking was done with a speacial tool we made. 30 minute job. That said, it will be a game of inches for you for sure. Borescope and time will tell what's happening I'm afraid. Regards, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: djaflyact<mailto:djaflyact@gmail.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:03 AM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad <djaflyact@gmail.com<mailto:djaflyact@gmail.com>> Well, I found the problem with interference with my right wing fit. I had forgotten (until I pulled the left wing out again) that I had a swelling fuel tank problem early on in the flying of the airplane. The brackets that hold the tank back worked great - in the area of the bracket, but in between the tank swelled until it rubbed on the aileron cross link between the CS08 arms. My solution at the time was to move one end of the cross link forward of the CS08. That allowed it to clear the tank, but that is now the reason I cannot get the right wing to fit. It has to go back to the original position. I've got two choices: The cross link rubs the fuel tank or the I fly with only one wing. Since there is no reasonable choice there, I think there are also now 2 possibilities: I move the fuel tank wall back or I bend the cross link bar to clear the swollen tank. Right now, I only see the arcing of the cross link as the answer. If it is not straight, it will not be as strong in compression. I doubt the loads are very high, but there is the issue of jammed controls and the ability to provide force in a situation like that. Would I make a contestant arc in the tube? Would I make a joggle in each end so that most of the rod is straight? Would I replace it with steel? Would I fill it with something like epoxy to make it stronger? Can the tank wall be pushed back? I can only imagine coating it with fiberglass or carbon cloth and some sort of hydraulic press holding it while it cures (I doubt this is possible). Has anyone experienced this issue with the fuel tank? Of course, the temperatures here have dropped to 0F at night, which is making progress more difficult. I am getting close, however. Thanks, Dave A227 Mini U2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414977#414977<http://forums .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414977#414977> www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/> www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/> www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/> www.mypilotstore.com<http://www.mypilotstore.com/> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Europa-List>


    Message 11


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:03:27 PM PST US
    From: "Bud Yerly" <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternative fuel tank mounting?
    Fred, We all learned the hard way that the tank really bonds well to the glass. Your advise is sound. The point that the floor is not strong enough to hold the whole tank is important! The method I use has a shelf that glasses the tank aft support to the floor and the back wall. I do not glass the saddle but only up the sides a bit to assist in side to side motion. The front of the tank must be supported also, but not solely by a wedge of foam or filler, it must be a glass beam. Typically the tank will set 1/2 to 3/4 inch off the floor. That area is filled in most cases with expand cell, smoothed and then glassed over to provide a beam support. Of course the forward ledge is a good support for the top of the tank as is. As you all know I use a thin cork or similar (one of my clients used felt) to allow the tank to move as it expands and contracts with fuel to try to prevent stress risers. Also it is imperative that the tank be wedged in with the forward tank supports, as well as foam on the sides, front and top to keep it firmly in place. Should one have followed the assembly manual (as one would think we should) and the tank sag becomes apparent, I have filled the area between the tank and the floor with foam to spread the load out a bit. It is only a band-aide and not a cure. Someone asked if the forward wedge could be glassed to the tank, and I don't believe that is sound as it would become another stress riser now on the forward side. Bottom line, Do not just let the tank rest on the floor. Andrew, The wrap around the tank only holds it from fore and aft movement as you said but foam will do that also. Something has to hold that 120 lbs of fuel and tank at 6+ gs. The glass aft bulkhead and T in the front will do it, but not without a sag on that front edge. I thought about a floor pan under the tank and a uni strap diagonally from the top rear bulkhead to the pan to hold the front of the tank early on, but a simple glassed beam on the floor is all that should be necessary. Make your forward T on the bench and let it cure (make a mold) then Redux to the front. On the aft saddle and bulkhead, put a layer of thin release plastic on the tank ( I put cork on the tank also) and make your bracket tapes per the book. Put the cockpit module in (I have the advantage of a ceiling hoist so it is easy for me to say) and check the position and mark the tank outline. Remove the tank and make a aft bulkhead to belly support as well as a line under the front of the tank about 2 inches wide of expand cell or similar and cover with release plastic. (You noticed the flexibility of the module, so a strap of glass to hold the bulkheads vertical is fairly smart.) Set the module in place and allow the expand cell to cure. Pull the module again (repetitive isn't it) and check, fill voids and smooth in preparation for 2 layers of glass over the expand cell or filler. Set the module in again and once assured it is all comfy, you are ready for bonding. In the 5 years 12AY has had its tank, it has been left full of fuel, empty, and every sort of load between and the support I have has left the tank still looking like new, no sags in the floor or belly and has served me well. My tank is the new style tank which is a bit thicker, reinforced and holds just a bit more fuel somehow. The top is nice and flat for a change. Older tanks are thinner and do bulge as many have commented on. Just my two cents. Regards, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein<mailto:fklein@orcasonline.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 2:02 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Alternative fuel tank mounting? On Dec 5, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: No, the straps will not be bonded to the tank, just to the baggage bay wall. The side of the strap facing the tank will have a neoprene pad, so there will be some 'give' to accommodate small expansions. Andrew...if I had it to do over again, I would attempt to ensure that the underside (including the "ledge") is fully supported yet free to expand and contract...I would install all the tapes to the CM which are called for, but I would provide a cushioned bond-break between the tape and the tank. In my attached build-photo, the FG tape was regrettably bonded to the tank. Fred www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/> www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/> www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/> www.mypilotstore.com<http://www.mypilotstore.com/> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Europa-List>


    Message 12


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:10:18 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 78 News - Good and Bad
    From: "djaflyact" <djaflyact@gmail.com>
    Looking at it closer today, I discovered I had the offset brackets installed upside down. The support for the tank wall was not high enough. In addition, the CS08 brackets were farther than 3 inches from the seat back. I swear they were correct when I built it. I was able to slightly modify the shape if CS08 (bend!) and now have the correct 3 inches. The rod can be straight and the only difficulty is now the swollen tank on one side preventing the offset bracket from fitting. I'm planning to encourage the tank face to back up a bit while I slip the standoff bracket in place. I will warm it slightly as it is freezing right now. Maybe apply pressure over a period of time. As insurance, I'll also replace the bolts that hold the rod ends at the top of CS08 with flush structural screws. I'm thinking that if the CS08 arm ever hits the spar, it would be better to hit a smooth surface , rather than bolt heads. Thanks everyone for the input. This story keeps developing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415022#415022




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   europa-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list
  • Browse Europa-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --